Talk:Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven) - Wikipedia

Talk:Symphony No. 9 (Beethoven)

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Text TranslationEdit

15 years ago, as shown in the talk archives, there was a brief discussion between two persons about whether the translation of the lyrics of the piece should be literal or poetic. Ultimately one person decided it should be poetic to some degree. I have changed on line because it was not correct by any German translation (changed “Durch des Himmels prächt’gen Plan” to “Through the heaven’s glorious plane” where it had incorrectly read “Through the glorious universe”). My change was appropriately based on the translation by the Schiller Institute, Schiller being the author of the lyrics and the Institute being recognized as expert on the subject of Schiller. I propose the translation be further based on the Institute’s translation. https://archive.schillerinstitute.com/transl/schiller_poem/ode_to_joy.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:88:8100:38B0:804E:431E:B85E:5067 (talk) 00:41, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Where did you see a translation of "des Himmels prächt’gen Plan" as "the heaven’s glorious plane" outside the LaRouche movement's dubious Schiller Institute? I agree that "universe" is sub-optimal, and "plan" is possible, but "plane" needs a substantial explanation why it would be a suitable translation of Schiller's "Plan". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:15, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

"The Choral"Edit

User:Pearsejward insists that this symphony is known as "The Choral". I checked, and most search results for that term referred to LvB's Choral Fantasy, so I reverted. Pearsejward then reverted me (disregarding WP:BRD) with the edit summary, "Op 125 is commonly known as the Choral or Choral Symphony. It's even in the simple talk version of the Wikipedia article (https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._9_%22Choral%22_(Beethoven)). A search online of 'Beethoven Choral' will pull up Beethoven's 9th". That edit summary fails to address the issue. First, we shouldn't take advice on naming conventions from other Wikipedias, let alone simple:. Second, the edit said, "also known as The Choral", which not even simple:Symphony No. 9 "Choral" (Beethoven) asserts. (Also: displaying the term in bold indicates that there is a REDIRECT from that term to this article, which there isn't.) Thirdly, there's no doubt that a search for "Beethoven Choral" will give results for the Ninth, but not in the first few places. Anyway, Google search results are not a reliable source. I suggest to remove the whole phrase ", also known as …" because "The Choral" is plain wrong, and "Beethoven's 9th" is trivial and banal – such a term can be applied to any symphony by any composer, e.g. "Segerstam's 337th". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree, and hope I fixed it. This is the first time I read the lead - sorry about that - and I believe it's not good. I'd mention Ode to Joy and the soloists and chorus much sooner, before all these superlatives. I miss the character of the music, and I guess the derived works, up to the Europe Hymn, deserve a sentence also. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi all. I found some examples of where it refers to the 9th being known as the "Choral" Symphony.
Anyway keep up the good work.

-- pearsejward (talk) 12:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

pearsejward, thank you for explaining, but in none of the first links (... no time nor patience for more ...) could I see someone say The Choral instead of saying that it's the Ninth Symphony with the attribute ('Choral') added. Do you see the difference? Can you live with the present solution? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:27, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
Hi Gerda, that's no problem. Yes I can live with it. Again thanks for the effort. Pearsejward (talk) 13:40, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Period/EraEdit

I attempted to remove mention of this symphony being part of the Classical period, but it was reverted due to an excuse that it came less than 10 years after the era allegedly ended. Who the hell arbitrarily mandated that there should be 10 years wiggle room for after the end of a period? Also, Beethoven did not remain a Classical period composer throughout his life, as he did transition a great deal into a Romantic style of composition. I'm going to revert the revert of my edit, since the period of the symphony is really a matter of dispute, anyway. Classicalfan626 (talk) 18:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Who the hell mandated that the Classical period absolutely ended in a given year? As you're changing stable text, per WP:BRD, please wait until there is a consensus supporting your change. Thank you. DonIago (talk) 19:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)
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