Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Automobiles

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WikiProject Automobiles (Rated Project-class)
WikiProject iconThis page is within the scope of WikiProject Automobiles, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of automobiles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
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Saleen and Tata Harrier[edit]

Good morning, I would like to point out that I have corrected the Saleen and Saleen S1 entry by adding the sources and the acquisition of the company by the Chinese Jiangsu Secco Tecnology, if someone can correct any errors in the notes and grammar. And Saleen is a public company? Many source cite is a private and chinese!

also in Tata Harrier there are many Indian news sites and articles and I would like to know if they are suitable for an encyclopedia, many seem superfluous (for example the many competing cars that I eliminated). thanks and good job

sorry but in Tata Motors there is the "Notable Vehicle" section which seems useless and repetitive as already mentioned in the entry and the specific entries are already present.

Proposed merge of Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 in Aeolus AX7[edit]

The Dongfeng Fengdu MX5 and first generation of Aeolus AX7 are same car! The Fengdu have only a different front and rear bumper but the car are the same and was produced only for 1 year! No other difference

Arbiter. WPA's choice of names is a guide for those writing about automobiles in English[edit]

It may give a few motoring journalists a bit of a laugh but I think the members of this project should face up to their responsibility. You people decide the terminology used particularly where editors are using English as a second language and are aware they can misuse or misunderstand English words. Don't let it become a muddle. Eddaido (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

That's okay - I also got quite a laugh when I saw lot's of 'infart' and 'utfart' signs when driving around Europe (they mean entrance and exit). We will never please everybody because English differs around the world. We still argue about bonnet vs hood, boot vs trunk and petrol vs gasoline. Such is the world we live in.  Stepho  talk  06:38, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
Hey Stepho, not at all what I meant. Which English-speaking country was it used those 'infart' and 'utfart' signs? Love to hear about it. Send an email. Eddaido (talk) 01:55, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Your mentioned non-English speakers reading English. My example was the same thing from the opposite side - English speakers reading non-English. Even Brits reading American English and vice-versa can have trouble. I've had instances where I wrote "windscreen" and some Americans couldn't figure out that it was the same as their "windshield".  Stepho  talk  06:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
That's Swedish (and other Scandinavian languages). "Uppfart" is a driveway, or whatever it is called in y'alls part of the world.  Mr.choppers | ✎  01:44, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

"Late model"[edit]

The Late model (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) article starts with an intro section about production cars, and then all the rest of the article is about the unrelated topic of racecar racing. Latemodels in stock car look like Dali-esque silhouettes of 1970s cars, and not recent production models (which top line stock car racing uses). To me, this should be split into two articles, one on late model production cars, and one on late model racing. What do you guys think? -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with the IP. I wonder though if the article should simply be moved to Late Model Racing and remove reference to road cars. Is the term really that common when referring to road cars? A7V2 (talk) 10:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
Seconded. The reference to road cars may still be appropriate somewhere in the article, but definitely not the lead. I don't think it's a common term referring to road cars, which is why somebody would want to look it up in the first place. It's such a trivial definition that a separate article is unnecessary. IPBilly (talk) 13:56, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
It's fairly frequent description of road cars in police blotter reports -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 02:49, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times help needed[edit]

Opinions needed at List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times Drachentötbär (talk) 11:36, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@Drachentötbär: Could you be more specific? Thanks, A7V2 (talk) 23:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
Just click https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_N%C3%BCrburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times&action=history to see the dispute. A new user appeared and keeps moving a car from the non-series/non-road-legal to the production/street-legal section. Drachentötbär (talk) 00:03, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Talk:Small car[edit]

There is a discussion going on Talk:Small car if it is a good idea that a redirect (established after an RfD) can be changed into a disambiguation page. The Banner talk 12:30, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Delahaye 175[edit]

A Delahaye fan has taken over this article and it has mushroomed into an enormous chunk of mostly uncited text and insane amounts of cruft. Does anyone have the energy to tackle this?  Mr.choppers | ✎  17:40, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Oh good lord. I don't have the energy right now, but I put an overdetailed template on it, at least. --Vossanova o< 21:13, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

B-segment has an RFC[edit]

B-segment has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Andra Febrian (talk) 04:14, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Proposed merge[edit]

It has been proposed that Roadable aircraft be merged into Flying car. You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Flying car#Merge proposal. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:20, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Flying car infoboxes[edit]

We have an infobox template for cars/automobiles in Template:Infobox automobile. There is a parallel template for aircraft at Template:Infobox aircraft. Now that flying cars are moving from the curiosity box to production engineering, it seems time to decide how to do their infoboxes. I have started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft#Flying car infoboxes, on the Aircraft WikiProject talk page, in which you are invited to participate. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 11:33, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Suggested article for improvement: Passenger vehicles in the United States[edit]

This article is...not good. I just came across it since Cars in the United States was somehow still redlinked. It needs a lot more help. {{u|Sdkb}}talk 18:57, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Notification of a move discussion[edit]

There is an ongoing discussion regarding whether Citroën C3 R5 and Škoda Fabia R5 should be moved to Citroën C3 Rally2 and Škoda Fabia Rally2 respectively. I invite interested editors to participate at Talk:Hyundai i20 R5#Requested move 10 July 2021. Thanks. A7V2 (talk) 08:02, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

List of VW diesel engines[edit]

Hello,

I am proposing a major change to the List of Volkswagen Group diesel engines at the corresponding talk page, see Talk:List of Volkswagen Group diesel engines#Major issues with this list. Please feel free to comment. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 16:31, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Pferdestärke edit warring[edit]

I have been witnessing a unit conflict here on the English language Wikipedia for a while now and I suppose it needs resolving. Now, I don't wish to blame anybody, so I will focus on the problem itself rather than involved editors. If described in a sentence that can easily be converted into a yes-or-no question, then the problem is whether or not the Pferdestärke power unit should be included in articles on vehicles that were not designed with this unit. There has been back-and-forth editing for too long now (some exmaples: [1] [2] [3] [4])

I would like to give you a brief overview of the Pferdestärke before going into detail: It is a unit of power in the MKPS unit system (sometimes referred to as the technical unit system). The MKPS unit system is an obsolete metric unit system that uses weight instead of force. In West Germany, this system was abandoned in 1972, and by 1978, it had become mandatory to use the SI system instead. This means that all (German) cars designed in 1978 or later come with SI units as standard (i. e. their engine power is always given in kilowatt, and any non kW figures are always converted from kilowatt).

I believe that the reason why this problem is prevailing is the WP:CARUNITS policy. This policy has several issues, most notably that it encourages the use and writing style of SI while not strictly following it, and that it permits the use of MKPS in articles on older cars without specifying what an old car is: "Metric horsepower (pferdestärke, PS) may be included for older vehicles".

Now, I'm aware that such vague wording doesn't always have to be a bad thing, but, in this case, it is. I recommend a better wording that defines better when the MKPS unit system is permissible. I suggest something that corresponds with a car's design units, i. e. that MKPS should be used with pre-1972 cars, but not with post-1977 cars. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 19:36, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Why? What problem are you attempting to solve? That some editors want to see "xx.x hp (yy.y kw)" and others want to see "xx. hp (yy.y kw, zz.z PS)"? Tomato, tomahto. The real problem isn't with units or serving the needs of readers. It's an example of Sayre's law, "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the issues at stake." Or what Wikipedia would call WP:LAME. I'd prefer we call it bikeshedding but I'm not going to fight anyone over what to call it.

Please note that WP:CARUNITS is not a policy; it barely ranks as a guideline, and it definitely is below Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers in the hierarchy of mere guidelines. The reason is that the Wikipedia community does not think these issues matter that much.

What we should focus on is this: if this "problem" is something an editor is willing to go to war over, should that person be attempting to contribute to a collaborative project? This is not a hill worth dying on. Right? The focus needs to remain on the question of whether editors willing to die on this hill are behaving in a disruptive way. Not whether we should or should mention PS conversions. The fact is, either is fine.

The best approach is identical to WP:RETAIN: if you find an article that does not convert hp to PS, leave it as is. If you find one that does, leave it as is. If you can't deal with that, you probably shouldn't be editing Wikipedia.

My advice is to let it go. If another editor violates WP:3RR, they will earn a block for it. If one of these articles is a candidate for good article, then the GA reviewer will tell you whether they think the units meet the MOS or not. They will likely accept either alternative, since it's extremely clear that Wikipedia considers either equally valid.

IMHO the best way to avoid this kind of nonsense is to use {{Convert}} with the default results. Input whatever units your source gives you, and let it display whatever the community consensus says {{Convert}} ought to display. The default of that template represents the consensus of two or three orders of magnitute more editors than WP:CARUNITS or any imaginable local consensus. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:50, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd very much go along with what Dennis says above. If you've made a big contribution to an article or a series of articles, it's easy to get attached to small points of detail. Take a deep breath and move on, hundreds of automotive pages are desperately in need of far more significant work! Mighty Antar (talk) 14:28, 11 August 2021 (UTC)
And I would not. Fuzziness does not suit an encyclopaedia. Effective nit-picking stops people scratching (and discourages nits). Eddaido (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Well, what happens is that when a manufacturer/source uses metric hp, as many of them still do, excluding that unit causes unnecessary confusion. Editors often mix up the units, or contradict existing sources. Here, MrsSnoozyturtle themselves added wholly incorrect data, writing that the S54B32 has 256kW to get 343hp as the output (should be 252kW/343PS). (FWIW BMW uses "hp" for metric hp, i.e. the use of "PS" is in no way the standard, and they were still using metric hp in 2018 at least. BMW's UK branch has used metric hp exclusively (p. 8) since the eighties at least, with no mention of imperial hp nor of kilowatts.)

We should A respect the sources, B make things clear, C try not to misrepresent facts, and D be precise. If BMW claims 115PS/85kW for a car, then why should we write 84.6kW/113hp??? It simply invites confusion as other editors will try to bring it back to read 115hp, as per the sources. The BMW entries in particular have been rife with minor errors in the power figures - It was trying to straighten these confused outputs out that led me into conflict with MrsSnoozyTurtle, who apparently owns BMW's Wikipedia footprint and has spent years repeatedly deleting all references to PS across all BMW articles.

Dennis Bratland, I agree in general and I wish it were that easy - but there are usually multiple sources using multiple units (the data farms, such as automobile-data.com, use all three). And when leaving one unit out causes trouble, I see absolutely no harm in including all three units, as long as it appears in reliable sources. This is one recent example of a reader trying to figure out how to include the M5's metric output of 507hp - which had been removed by SnoozyTurtle a year earlier. Contorting information to exclude metric horsepower leading to WP having false data, such as in the case of the BMW S54B32's power being wrong for nine years, is simply unacceptable. Sure, it's somewhat minor, but I don't know that we should accept that English language WP is an unreliable source for information on BMWs or in any other field when it is so easliy avoided. N.b., I do not argue for adding PS where it doesn't belong, such as most articles on British or American cars, quite the opposite.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

People do confuse hp and PS all the time, some even don't realise it's a different unit, so in my opinion our best bet is to include both (along with kW) regardless of era or country of origin. No harm done by doing that. Removing PS is quite counterproductive, let alone having an edit war on it. Andra Febrian (talk) 12:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Supercars[edit]

An extremely energetic editor is adding dozens of pictures and dubiously formatted content to all modern super and luxury car pages. If anyone has spare energy, I suggest going here to see. Rolls-Royce Phantom (eighth generation), for instance, had four images but had eighteen after ගොඩය was through. I give up.  Mr.choppers | ✎  03:49, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I have edited the Rolls-Royce Phantom VIII page (Special:Diff/1038579886), because I agree that these pictures and text additions are not particularly good; basically, there were only primary sources and various pieces of information on interior details that I believe are hardly information but free marketing. Best regards, --Johannes (Talk) (Contribs) (Articles) 12:04, 13 August 2021 (UTC)