The Big Picture

• Reptile on Netflix is a must-watch crime thriller that has claimed the #1 spot for three weeks.
• Producers Molly Smith and Trent Luckinbill of Black Label Media discuss their process for discovering new projects, choosing between theatrical release or streaming, and their experience working with Netflix.
• They also talk about why they took a chance on first-time director Grant Singer and his vision for Reptile, as well as upcoming projects such as a historical thriller series for Apple TV+ and the status of Sicario 3.

If you haven’t checked out Reptile on Netflix, make it your next watch. The crime thriller stars Oscar-winner Benicio del Toro and marks the actor’s first-ever screenwriter credit alongside writer-director Grant Singer, and claimed the #1 spot on Netflix’s top ten for three weeks running. Inspired by filmmakers like David Fincher, Singer’s feature debut keeps viewers guessing to the end with an impressive roster including Justin Timberlake, Alicia Silverstone, and Michael Pitt.

With Reptile’s streaming success, Collider’s Steve Weintraub spoke with producers Molly Smith and Trent Luckinbill, who, along with partner Thad Luckinbill, established Black Label Media in 2013. Their production company has since been involved in a number of big projects from Denis Villeneuve and Taylor Sheridan’s Sicario, Academy Award-winning La La Land, and 12 Strong starring Chris Hemsworth. During their interview, they discuss how they discover their next film or television series, deciding between a theatrical release or streaming, a day in the life of a producer, and their experience working with Netflix.

In addition to what they do behind the scenes, Smith and Luckinbill also talk about why they took a chance on first-time film director Singer and his vision for Reptile, getting del Toro involved and how he “elevated” the original script, and upcoming projects for Black Label Media like their Christopher McQuarrie film currently titled Others Uknown, a historical thriller series for Apple TV+ called Havana Nocturne, and what the status of Sicario 3 is.

COLLIDER: So the last time we spoke was The Good Lie in 2014. I think it was your first movie or one of the first, I don't exactly remember, but what have the last nine years been like for you guys and getting to do what you've been doing?

MOLLY SMITH: It was our first Black Label title. I kind of grew up over at Alcon Entertainment and produced for them early in my career, and then Trent and Thad and I wrote a business plan and started Black Label. So The Good Lie was our first Black Label movie, and we're still so proud of that movie. It continues to this day to be a really amazing educational film. It gets licensed all over for educational conferences or school showings, and so that makes us proud that it's a movie that continues to give back and tell their story.

But yeah, the last 10 years or so have been incredibly busy, and we've been so lucky to get to work with, I think, some of the top filmmakers in our business, and also, in the last couple of years, work with some rising stars, obviously like J.D. Dillard and Grant Singer most recently. I think that that just shows us we just try to be really picky about the directors we get to work with because it's not like you're doing a movie for six months; you go into a several-year process with them of collaboration. We've really been so lucky because we've worked with, obviously, Denis Villeneuve and Joe Kosinski and, obviously, the late Jean-Marc Vallée. We've just been really blessed on that front, so we continue to try to do that with every project we get into.

Honestly, the only thing that's shifted for us in the last couple of years is a lot more television. We're developing a lot more television, a lot more series, only because the demand for that is a lot higher. The nice thing is, we're producers at heart, so the distribution landscape, even though it looks drastically different than when we started the company, it's really just about trying to figure out where your product lives. Where is this going to reach the biggest audience? What format is this? Is this a film, or should it be expanded to a limited because it's actually better to serve the story and expand and tell the proper story in six episodes rather than a two-hour movie? So, I think just our approach to each project has probably shifted a little bit.

TRENT LUCKINBILL: I would say what was true about The Good Lie is still sort of our North Star, which is most of our projects still start with a script that we read and something that moves us or some story that we want to be a part of telling. So I'd say that's probably still true. Even in TV, and things like that, it's filmmaker-driven and then scripts that we just can't say no to.

I'm gonna ask you guys to pick a baby. If someone has never seen something that you've produced at your company, what is the first thing they should watch and why?

LUCKINBILL: I think we each have our own, or maybe we don't, but I'm so proud of the projects we've chosen. Some have worked commercially, some have not, but you still are just as proud even when they don't work because you just put so much into it, and you still feel like it's a story that you're proud to present and happy for people to see. I think Sicario is still kind of that just sort of magic moment of script, director, the cast, the execution, Roger Deakins. Just on every level, it was so beautifully done, and the collaboration with our other producers was great. I’m just really, really proud of that movie. So I think that's probably, if I had the single one out, which is a tough chore, I would probably say that one.

SMITH: I agree. Sicario is hard to beat because we just had such a special experience, and the A-team, as Trent said, on that movie. I would say if you haven't seen, and probably just because it didn't work commercially, so I feel like less people actually got to discover this movie, Only the Brave sticks with us, too, as one of the movies that we're most proud of. Not only was it, again, an incredible team with Joe Kasinski and Claudio [Miranda] and our buddy Josh Brolin, who we've had the pleasure of working with three times, and Miles Teller, and just an incredible cast, but the telling of that story, and what we all know went into it because we approached that movie with so much respect because it was so fresh for the families. We made the movie only a couple of years after the tragedy happened. That doesn't usually happen. Usually, you're telling a story, maybe, you know, 10 years ago or older. So I think because of the delicate nature of trying to tell that story and honor those men and what they did and the sacrifice they gave their lives for in saving their town, it was a really special production because everybody from top to bottom who worked on the production and the cast and crew just came at it with such love and care and delicate. So, we're really proud of that movie.

You guys have made a number of films, which of them do you think changed the most in the editing room in ways you didn't expect going in?

SMITH: That's a good question, too.

LUCKINBILL: Steve, you're good at this. [Laughs]

SMITH: 12 Strong was actually a big editing feat. That was our first kind of true action movie, and we got to work with the king of that, Jerry Bruckheimer. So, for us as producers and collaborators, what was fun about that was really collaborating with Jerry and in the editing room. He's so good at it. He's got so many, obviously, so many films and television under his belt and years and years of experience and knowledge in that genre, so that was really a great experience. I wouldn't say that it drastically transformed from the page because we actually had a fantastic script on that, but there was a lot of reworking it in the editing room to sort of land on the final product.

What do you think would surprise people to learn about being a producer in Hollywood?

SMITH: Another good question. I would say that your phone calls can go from multimillion-dollar crises to discussing hair color or the style of a wig in about 10 minutes. That's always funny to me that your day encompasses everything from, again, putting out fires and making sure everything is fiscally on budget and on schedule, and everything is working on that level, but then quickly, in the same breath, flipping to the creative side of it and kind of chiming in, whether it be wardrobe or hair and makeup or the scene, and that's what's fun about producing, I think.

LUCKINBILL: Yeah, I think that's the range of issues you deal with, like she said, that really, when you explain that to people, I don't think they understand how in the weeds you get on little things procedurally to creative, from the start. Obviously, at Black Label, we've been producers and the studio quite often, and so that even sort of introduces another range of issues to deal with as sort of putting on that studio hat.

What Is Christopher McQuarrie's 'Others Unknown'?

For both of you, if you could get the financing to finally make something that you've been trying to make for a long time, what would you make and why?

SMITH: Good question. Trent, what do you think? I mean, we've had some good ones get away just for whatever reason – the distribution landscape wasn't there at the right time for them. But we kind of keep our slate small. I mean, we've been really lucky in that most of the things we develop or try to go into, we've been lucky enough to make. We've certainly got some legacy projects, meaning some of our early slate that we're still going on.

Trent and I were actually speaking about it just before this call, but we've got one of the first projects we developed, that the three of us came together on, is a phenomenal project called Others Unknown, which is the story of Stephen Jones who was the defense attorney who represented Timothy McVeigh after the Oklahoma City bombings. It's an incredible story. It's based on his book, and we've been developing that for now over 10 years with Chris McQuarrie and Nathan Alexander, and still intend and hope to get to make that. We're really excited about that, and we remain as passionate about it today as we did 10 years ago. So that's kind of fun when you just don't give up on something because you believe in it.

LUCKINBILL: Yeah, it's rare that we've just cleared something off our slate. I think maybe it's the eternal optimist in us over there. There are, I think, cycles that you experience in this business where things are in vogue and then they fall out of favor, but I think we've always, since most of the stuff we've owned, we've just kept, you know, put it on the shelf, but we may be intending to dust it off and put it back together when the timing's right.

One of the things about Hollywood or just moviemaking is that every producer is looking for a great script, and there are only so many great scripts around. How do you guys find material before someone else finds it?

LUCKINBILL: [Laughs] Yeah, that's the hard part of this business, exactly right, is finding it and getting ahead of it. We scour from a book perspective; if we can find books that are new or things that have not yet been made, we'll start there. We will continually sort of network with our former directors, former writers, actors and find out what they're interested in, what they're passionate about. And obviously, I think to the traditional process is we are closely connected in the agency world with things that are percolating or stuff that will soon hit the market. So, we do our best, like everyone, just to sort of try to be first in line when something's coming to fruition, and then network on the side.

SMITH: We've been lucky to work with some really great talent over the years, writers, directors, and actors, like Trent said, so we just always make sure that it's open door policy because they may have something that they were sent or they stumbled upon, or they always wanted to make. So a lot of our projects actually come in through that: relationships and people we've worked with over the years, or we’ll set out to develop something with someone we have a close relationship with that we want to do more with.

Obviously, Reptile came about that way because we had obviously worked with Benicio twice on the Sicario movies, but we had never really taken him anything else. When Reptile came in, and we developed it a little further with Grant, Benicio was his top idea. We called him and Rick Yorn and Jack Whigham and the team that we're close with, and just said, “Look, we've got something really special. It's a first-time director, but read it, and if you respond to it all, you've got to meet him. He's the real deal.” And the rest is history because they met him and really fell in love with him and saw the vision Grant had. That was exciting for us to get to reteam with Benicio on something new.

Also, it's Benicio's first time getting credited as a screenwriter, so he clearly got involved.

SMITH: That's right. Well, you know, a lot of that happened organically because of COVID just because we were delayed. They met in November 2019, and then, obviously, everything changed in early 2020. So a lot of that just organically happened because we were still developing it further to kind of tailor it with Benicio’s input and notes, and then they really hunkered down during the lockdown and started writing together, and it was great. It just elevated the script on every level.

One of the things about the film is you really don't know how anything is going to perform. You guys know that more than anybody. So what's it like having the number one movie on Netflix for three weeks?

LUCKINBILL: It's great. It is our first experience sort of on this level with a movie of this size. I think we've sold a couple of movies after the fact, but they were on the smaller side. So for us to kind of be on a major release pattern for them, I think this really exceeded our expectations. We were super proud. Clearly, their audience around the world really, really responded to it in a way that I don't think we anticipated.

SMITH: Yeah, and you really feel the power and reach that Netflix has when you have a movie that performs well for them because we were talking about just the amount of people that have reached out to any of us, from Grant to Benicio to us to agents, our whole team involved. That's when you realize just, god, they have a wide reach because it just doesn't always happen that way. You know, theatrically, you hope people see it. A lot of times, they catch it later, but this is just like in your face, it's in everyone's home, the access to it. It's pretty powerful to see how wide-reaching their movies are.

LUCKINBILL: And the caveat it is, this was during the strike. Obviously, we talked about this earlier on another issue, but without the ability for the cast to really get out and promote it…I mean, we went to Toronto, we did a couple of screenings, but none of the traditional releases, none of the traditional press that you would get when you have Benicio and Timberlake and Alicia and the cast to really lead forward with you.

Also, I know a lot of actors, and some of them do not enjoy the promotional process, so I think for some people, not having to promote is not the end of the world. For some.

LUCKINBILL: That's true.

SMITH: It's true. It is. It’s a lot on them. But I think, again, Netflix has the audience. It's a built-in audience. So, it was kind of an interesting experiment, I think, without the promotion and word of mouth to just see what happened organically, you know?

Yeah. The other thing I found is when a movie enters the top 10 at Netflix, a lot of people, including myself, look at the top 10, “What is everyone else watching?” And when you have a movie that's the number one movie, and it has Benicio’s picture, or Justin, or whatever it is, a lot of people are going to push play because it's the number one movie.

SMITH: Definitely.

LUCKINBILL: Yeah, I think that's right.

What have the last few weeks been like? Because this is your first time with Netflix having success. When you have a successful movie, is it all of a sudden you're setting up another meeting with someone there, like, “What else can we do?”

SMITH: No. [Laughs] They were great partners. They got the movie. We were actually setting out to make the movie independently, and probably sell it later at a festival. That was the plan being that it was a smaller, more contained thriller, and it was Grant's first movie. Once we put our cast together, the call came in that they were excited and wanted to jump in and partner in advance, and we had never done that. So, it was a great process because they were so excited about it from day one as we were already in pre-production. They jumped in and truly were incredible to collaborate with all the way through. So definitely we want to do more with them. I think that the talent, obviously, like you said, was big for them on the platform even without promoting it. So we're all looking for what could be next.

I do have a question as producers. So, you're in preproduction, you are making it, and Netflix calls and says, “Hey, we're interested in this.” How much is there an element of, “Look, what do we want to do? Do we want to sell to Netflix and get guaranteed money to make this thing, and everyone's paid off, and the work is done?” and how much is it sort of like, “Do we want to wait, see how this turns out, and this could be a bigger payday, or it could go theatrical?” What are those discussions like behind the scenes as producers? Because I'm sure that there have to be real discussions of, “What do we want to do now?”

SMITH: That's right.

LUCKINBILL: There's real calculus on that, you're right. You do think that through. People do it all sorts of ways, whether they sell before or sell after. I think, again, the other wrinkle was we shot this in 2021. So it was still kind of in that moment of not sure exactly theatrically where and when things are going to come back to normal or how that's gonna look. So I think all of those factors really came into play, but yeah, we do this all the time. I mean, as a financing studio, we really go through this analysis and try to make the best decision, and sometimes, you can't predict the future, certainly. And so, you know, some of it's just kind of a feel thing. Does this feel right in the moment, and does this partnership feel right? Is the cast excited about this option? And all those things, you just kind of have to sort of sift through.

Why They Took a Chance on Grant Singer's Vision

For both of you, Grant has obviously done a lot of music videos, very talented visually, [but] never made a feature film. What was it about his presentation, or when did you know, “Oh, he's gonna be able to do this?”

SMITH: Right when we met him. You could tell from the minute you met Grant. Just being the student of film the way he is, and what he studied and what he, at the time, brought to his visual style in music video directing. But also, our very first meeting, he kind of laid out his vision for how he wanted to approach the storytelling. It's one thing to read it on the page, it's another thing to kind of let the director walk you through how they'd like to execute it. Obviously, that evolves several times because it evolves again when you go to make the movie, and it evolves again in the editing room. But sometimes you just know, and Grant is so smart, and he's got such a clear vision of what he wants.

The other impressive thing about Grant was working with him so closely in the editing room. He's truly like a savant in the editing room. He knows exactly what he wants. He has an incredible ear, I think, again, from his music video background. So the sound design, the score, just the editing style, the cuts, everything was really fun to watch with him because he just truly has a gift for it. So, we were lucky because it was just a really great collaboration from day one, from that very first meeting. But he's got a long career ahead of him. He's a really talented guy.

LUCKINBILL: Just to echo that, the script we loved, and then we met him, and the passion matched what we loved about the script, and the vision was there. Look, on top of that, you know, it's very hard for first-time directors to land big talent. I think that probably just supports the way we felt, the fact that he can go in and not only win us over, he won over Benicio and Justin Timberlake, and you name it, down the line. Also, [he] had a great vision for who he really wanted to cast. That's one of the real strong suits that we continue to hear about the movie is there's not a bad performance in the film, and that really speaks to a director who knew what he wanted from each role, who cast the right person to play those roles, and was able to support and work with those actors to get that performance.

Yeah, I've spoken to Grant twice now about the film. We actually did a long interview for our daily podcast yesterday. One of the things that I think he really smartly did, and I don't know if it was intentional or not, but with a film like Reptile, often what happens is that the studio, whoever makes the film, will cast all the supporting roles locally and there will be one supporting role that's a big name, and you know that's the person who did it because why would they take the role? The thing that the film smartly does is you have a lot of actors who people recognize in supporting roles, so when you're watching it, you actually don't know as an audience member who is the person that did it because, “It could be any of these people that I recognize are all actors I know,” and that's what I think the film smartly does is you don’t know when you’re watching who’s guilty.

LUCKINBILL: It's a really good point, really good point. Yeah, because it doesn't tip the hand at all.

You watch all these thrillers, and there's one actor that's a big actor, and in the second act, you're like, they did it.

LUCKINBILL: You're like, “You got to bring him back,” right? It's got to be that person.

What Is 'Havana Nocturne' on Apple TV+?

Anyway, you guys mentioned TV projects. Obviously, TV is where everyone is right now. It also allows you to tell more because you can spend more time with characters. So what's coming up at Black Label that you guys are excited to be making or hopefully soon?

LUCKINBILL: Well, to your point, we have a number of projects that used to be features that, frankly, we always struggled with containing that story into two hours or a feature length. So, you know, we took some of those and just let them breathe, and it worked in a way that really opened up the script and, like you said, opened up the story. So we've got a big project with Apple called Havana Nocturne, and it's about when the mob went down to Cuba in the ‘40s and ‘50s and ran all the gaming and built the casinos, and kind of had control politically down there with [Fulgencio] Batista. Then [Fidel] Castro, at the same time, is sort of coming out of law school as this revolutionary. He turns his back on his family and decides to lead the revolution. So you kind of have these parallel tracks of a war for the heart of Cuba between Castro and the mob that sort of culminates in the ‘59 revolution. It's a really big, epic, great mob story that hasn't been told. It's been touched on, certainly, in [The Godfather Part II] and things like that, but this is a real focus on that. That's one of the ones that we're really excited about.

First of all, Apple might be my favorite streamer right now because of the quality of the stuff that they make. The sci-fi on Apple TV is phenomenal. But my question is, with a story like that, how much do they want to know, “This is a three-season plan, this is a five-season plan,” or how much is it, “We just want one great season, and that'll be enough?”

LUCKINBILL: We kind of went in contemplating this as really closer to the five, but anywhere from three to five. I think it just kind of depends on how much you tell the story, how quickly you want to tell the story, or how much you want to slow it down. There's just so much room to grow. Obviously, I think this covers nearly 17 years, 18 years, I think, is what we're contemplating, so this one was always envisioned as a little bit more of a long-running series. But I think that's right. I think in today's age, I think you do kind of have that. Even if it's just a limited, a lot of times it's smart, and I think the conversation is always gonna be had, which is, “Is there sort of a pathway, and what would that look like?” Whether it's realistic or not. But, as you see when these things perform, it makes sense for them, right? They've invested a lot in that show in one season, so if you can actually capitalize on multiple seasons, it becomes a better move for them. So I think you start to hear those conversations, they start to ask about those earlier now.

Shawn Levy just did All the Light We Cannot See, which is a four-episode Netflix thing. It's fantastic, but it's just designed as four episodes. Going in, you know that's all it's gonna be. It's very contained. But if I were a producer at a studio, I would wanna know that there's a three-season plan or, “You have an idea of where you're going before I give you the money to make the first season.”

LUCKINBILL: Yeah. And in success, then you create that pathway. Sure. That's a real conversation that we've had, certainly, and I think it's kind of being had across the landscape.

Another question for you guys: one of the things that I have found with two-hour movies—and you've sort of touched on it, why you wanted to bring that material to television—is that with a two-hour movie, you basically know what you're getting. You know you can only have so many small scenes because you have a two-hour movie. So you look at Scorsese's Killers of the Flower Moon, it’s three-and-a-half hours, and you have a lot more movies that are two-and-a-half, three hours because it allows you these quiet beats. Even The Batman by Matt Reeves is three hours, and one of the reasons I think it’s phenomenal is because you have these small moments where the Riddler can just do little things, and you're not rushing. So how much are you guys, as producers, sort of thinking about runtime? Obviously, Reptile’s like 2:05/2:10, whatever it is, but how much are you also thinking about how movies being longer is advantageous to making them better at times.

SMITH: Well, I think the story has to earn that. Like you said, it has to be a story that is worthy of that. Like, you're talking about Killers of the Flower Moon and a filmmaker like Marty Scorsese, who we could all watch for as many hours as he wants us to watch. I don't think every movie can sustain that. I think there are certain movies that the pacing is very important to it. Reptile, a lot of it was Grant really wanted to create this feeling that you were uncomfortable and tense and on the edge of your seat. So, expanding that or making that too long starts to get monotonous at some point. So I think that it's really about serving the story, and I think we hopefully struck the right balance in Reptile because you don't know where it's going all the way to the very end. We tried to really take you on this emotional journey through Nichols’ character that you had no idea through those final moments in that house, in Allen’s house, where this was going. You know, Benicio, you still get those incredible, like you're talking about, quiet moments with him, and I think that was one of the things that came out in the editing room of that movie, that it was much more of a character piece than it was even on the page. And I think Benicio does that because he's so internal, and you feel everything he's feeling.

But yeah, I think length of these films and the pacing, it's always discussed, and your tendency, especially from studios, is to cut, cut, cut, keep it tight because they don't feel like audiences have the attention span or whatever. But if the story is worthy and the filmmaker and the filmmaking is worthy, whether it's Chris Nolan or Marty Scorsese or these people, I think that it's showing that the audience, you can sustain if the story is gripping your attention.

Yeah, Reptile obviously works for its runtime.

LUCKINBILL: Yeah, exactly.

What's the Status of 'Sicario 3'?

So you’ve made two Sicario’s. Obviously, everyone always asks you if there's gonna be a third. I'll ask you just for the hell of it. But are we reaching the point where maybe it's not gonna happen because it's been so many years, or do you think it actually still could happen?

LUCKINBILL: It's gonna happen.

SMITH: It's gonna happen. We're working on it.

LUCKINBILL: The strike slowed us down a little bit, but we're pretty close to being able to pull the trigger on that and really start lining up dates. We're super proud of it. Working with Taylor, we always sort of envisioned this, at least sort of at a minimum, a three-part thing. But yeah, our idea is to get the cast back together with Benicio, Emily, and Josh, and we’ve got a great story to tell.

Look, you make this movie, I'm gonna be the first one to see it. The first one is phenomenal. If I can ask, do you have a script that's close to done that you're super happy with? Where are you in the actual development?

SMITH: We have a script we're reworking right now, but we're getting very close. We feel very confident we're going to crack it. I would say we know the pressure of getting it right, so we're not rushing that process. But we are very confident that we're going to crack the shooting draft, hopefully very soon, and be able to get the whole band back together because the story is epic, and it's worthy of the third.

Is it one of these things that you are incorporating actors’ notes at this point, or are you still figuring it out?

SMITH: Well, Benicio, by nature of just working with us most recently, has been probably the closest to it at the moment. But we're keeping all the talent informed. They've stayed close to it. Like Trent said, the strike has just slowed us down a bit on this last draft, but I think everybody is very excited. Everyone sort of knows the framework of the story and is very excited to, hopefully, get our shooting draft in order very soon.

I forget the person who directed the second one, but is he coming back for the third?

SMITH: Stefano Sollima. He’s amazing. But we don't know who's going to direct yet. It’s all gonna be about timing. We've got obviously a wealth of great partners on it, everybody from Taylor Sheridan to Chris McQuarrie as a partner on it, but it'll all be about the timing and what aligns with everyone's schedule.

Taylor knows how to direct, obviously. How much are you guys being like, “Taylor, do you want to do the third one?” Because his schedule is crazy.

LUCKINBILL: Well, we know his schedule is crazy because Thad, who was supposed to be on this call, just did a season of Lioness, which that's phenomenal. Taylor wrote a great role for him. But, I mean, it’s just that issue, right? He is so busy, and he stays close to it, and will obviously have input, too. Then it's just a question of when we get schedules lined up and all of that starting to have real conversations to see who's available and who wants to do it. So certainly, I think everybody that's ever been involved with this has stayed really close and has stayed fans of it. So, we'll just push forward and see what lines up and who lines up in our window.

Watch Reptile Here