FIRST Official /r/smashbros Ultimate Tier List: Results!
This tier list is a number of things. As stated in the title of this post, this tier list is r/smashbros' first voted Smash Ultimate tier list. That also makes this Smash Ultimate tier list the earliest ever community voted tier list for the game, as all of the voting occurred within a week of the game being released (although some people may or may not have been playing it for longer than that...). Since voting took place so soon after release and r/smashbros has been growing at an exponential rate, this tier list has also by far seen the most votes on any tier list in r/smashbros history, receiving exactly 14,320 votes!
Though it is pretty large, we should keep in mind that this tier list will likely not be very accurate. The meta is still very young and the level of experience that each voter has with Smash is varied, so it is near impossible to construct an accurate tier list at this time. This tier list thread is simply meant to be a way to spark discussion about the game, bringing the community together in the process.
Without Further Ado...
/r/smashbros' First Smash Ultimate Tier List!
Notes:
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On the voting form, voters had the option of placing each character in top, high, mid, low, or bottom tier. Each of these tiers was assigned a point value; for example, voting a character into top tier gave them 5 points, while voting a character into bottom tier gave them a single point. The final score of each character was determined by dividing their total amount of points by the amount of votes they received (most voters did not for every character!).
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With the exception of most echo fighters, characters were ranked from highest to lowest score. The majority of voters believed that Daisy, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, Ken, and Lucina should be ranked with their echo counterparts; as a result, the final score of both these echo fighters and their counterparts was the average of both character's scores. The character with the higher individual score was given the higher spot on the tier list.
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The final tier that each character fell into was determined by two factors. The general tier of each character (top, high, mid, low) was determined by how close each character's final score was to each tier value; for example, King Dedede ended with a final score of 2.349 points, which is closest to low tier's value of 2 points. The specific tier of each character (+, -, and neutral tiers) was determined by the size of the point gaps between each character; for example, the point gap between King Dedede and Mii Swordfighter was large enough to create a tier gap between the two characters, while the point gap between Mii Gunner and King Dedede was not as notable.
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Gag votes were not considered on the tier list. A gag vote is defined as any vote that mostly contains two or less tiers (typically Top and Bottom Tier). These votes are designed to intentionally boost or harm the placing of one character or a select few characters. Please do not submit these votes; it took a few extra hours to prepare the tier list because of the 100+ gag votes that had to be manually removed from the data and calculations.
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Pikachu is an exception to the guidelines written above. Though Pikachu ended up in top tier, its final score (4.499 points) is closer to the point value of high tier (4 points) than top tier (5 points). Pikachu was put into top tier because its final score is barely lower than what would be required to reach top tier and the gap between Pikachu and Inkling is far and away the greatest point gap on the list (over twice as large as the second greatest point gap, which is between Pac-Man and Bowser Jr).
After ranking each character, voters were given the option to answer a few questions regarding stages! Over 2,000 voters answered these questions. Unfortunately, due to the poor setup of both questions and the varying level of competitive experience held by each voter, it was impossible to gather any solid data from the first two questions, which asked voters which stages they would like to see as starters and/or counterpicks in a competitive setting. If you'd be interested in seeing conclusive results from a poll solely focused on stages, I'd suggest taking a look at u/FlameCannon's Voted Stage Lists Thread.
Though no conclusive results were able to be gleaned from the first two questions, the last question, which asked each voter for their favorite stage, had usable data.
r/smashbros' Top 10 Favorite Stages:
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Fountain of Dreams
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Final Destination
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Battlefield
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Pokémon Stadium
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Smashville
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WarioWare, Inc.
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Temple
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Dracula's Castle
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Dreamland 64
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Yoshi's Story
In-depth data on the tier list, the full list of favorite stages, and every individual vote can be found here!
That's a wrap! Thank you all for being patient; between school, the holidays, the large amount of votes, and changing around the tier list methodology to fit a new game, this list took much longer than what I expected (and promised a few people). In the future, these tier lists will come out much sooner after voting is concluded.
On the topic of the future; look out for new tier list threads every month! Just like with Smash 4 for the first 3 years of it's life, Smash Ultimate will have a monthly tier list series, with a new tier list voting thread being posted each month. Tournament results from each month will be listed in each of these tier list threads. Hopefully 2019 is an exciting year for competitive Smash!
Interesting to look at, but predictably a really really awful tier list. Though some of it is because of the long gap between voting and release of this list. Everyone in the community has had massive opinion changes on characters in the first few days of release compared to today.
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Didn't he argue Cloud was mid tier for like 6 months
A lot of people were fond of downplaying Cloud's massive strengths. Leo is a firm adherent to the "Cloud isn't top 5"
conspiracytheory."His recovery is bad so he sucks"
laughs in Chrom
Whenever a top player says they're having a "character crisis", that's a good sign that the game is well-balanced. It means that there isn't an obvious top tier that they should just jump on.
Another translation is "This character doesn't feel good to me" = "This character actually has weaknesses in some situations."
Inkling is high skill floor as a rush down char. Much harder to just pick up and play well especially since his play style is incredibly unique compared other games and chars. M2K being bad at him at high levels doesn't mean he isnt broken.
With the ink management it’s definitely not a broken character. I would put inkling in high tier but not broken S tier that’s for sure.
Comment deleted by user
let's not squid ourselves, maybe
Reddit analysis is always funny on any sub
Man that's about the most backwards-ass logic I've ever heard
It's not at all. He plays professionally so his goal is to win, not have fun. It's true that most of the cast is mid tier but thry get shrekd by high tier because in this game the high tier seem to have major strengths and minor/no weaknesses.
I can see where he is coming from to be honest. As a pro player you want to compete at the highest level, why would you gimp yourself playing a mid tier character if everyone else is playing high tier characters you know? Since he is part of an organization results matter, not if he is having the most fun.
Because tier lists are really just perception. If M2K wants to play a top tier character he just needs to play his favorite character well and people will decide its a top tier character. He's basically tying himself to a ranking he should be creating.
Ultimate came out two weeks ago. Folowing a loose judgement now would be bumfuck stupid.
I feel like the meta has evolved so much since this was voted on. Mii swordfighter has some crazy new kill confirms off of tornado but he’s ranked bottom 5, for example. (I know a kill confirm doesn’t make or break a character but it still shows that if people knew about this a few weeks ago he would have been placed much higher)
alotta Smash 4 carryover
Sheik and Diddy what are you doing
Also Palutena
Peach...
I heard he was good and greatly improved, even back when the voting was open
A lot of people voting just voted without reading the comments I’d imagine.
Bayonetta posts saying she was completely gutted and potentially low tier were getting a decent amount of upvotes, but there she is sitting pretty in high tier.
She's pretty mediocre. I have yet to see anyone manage anything impressive. Pink Fresh seems to be struggling but still playing her.
I knew about it 2 days into the game when I got shrekd online by one and I was scramming to warn everybody as fast as I could. Definitely still underrated
Made my first Sword fighter and I'm not a pro or anything but I really enjoyed playing him. Definately tiered very low on this list.
Oh god this is terrible
Truly terrible. Excited to see how it changes. Also excited to see Pikachu safely land at the bottom of top tier over time, because he’s definitely not the best character in the game.
Yup, I dont think hes "bad' but hes far from top tier, its pretty obvious when this was made everyone was just saying he was top tier simply because all the pros kept saying they thought he would be.
Disagree, I've been playing a lot of pika, and he's top tier at the worst. I don't think he's the best character in the game, but he has so many tools and options, along with good movement that he's at worst a great rushdown character.
Yeah, we are back to terrible reddit tier lists. I remember the last few smash 4 ones being pretty close to perfect.
I mean most of the voting was done based on hearsay from pros and people with early copies and maybe a few days of playtime, mostly spend doing unlocks and PvE modes by a lot of players.
There really was little point to open the voting so early, maybe a week ago would have been okay for a first semi accurate list, but they are still new things being found almost everyday.
I thought this tier list was brand new until I saw how low Mii Swordfighter is
Source
I watched zero on Twitch
I'm not OP, but I watched this much more comprehensive and in depth video on youtube.
https://youtu.be/cIJc_JBQADI
Correction
I watched zero on Youtube
Then I tried it myself, it's damn good. Though I still prefer Lucina/Marth personally.
The strait disrespect given to the true King DeDeDe.. Is this how it feels to be T R I G G E R E D!!!! This list is a joke.
Yeah, I've been playing a ton of Dedede. I'm not great at the game and definitely understand if things are different at the highest levels of play, but I have a really hard time believing he is a bottom 5 fighter
Dedede is really good imo. Good side B, and reflect. Tilts have good range too.
!RemindMe 1 year
No need. This list sucks rn
I will be messaging you on 2019-12-28 01:13:39 UTC to remind you of this link.
6 OTHERS CLICKED THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
Parent commenter can delete this message to hide from others.
!RemindMe 1 year
Pac-Man mains rise up
We are the truly oppressed, RISE UP PAC MAINS
Pac is lowkey hella busted if he had actual kill power that didn't revolve around getting stupidly hard reads or gimping opponents with moves like orange or carrying opponents to the blastzone using fair. Like the man literally has one of the best frame data in the game with a stupidly great zoning game making our man Pac-Man hella good as an aggressive zoner with fantastic damage output and normals alongside having one of the best ledge guarding in the game in a game where ledge and edge guarding is actually relevant. But since he's a character that can't kill and basically is slow for a character with such short range for a semi-aggressive character once he is forced to stop playing semi-campy, that kinda makes him bottom 15.
Mii swordfighter in low tier lol
Amazing how this tier list became outdated before it ever was published.
Tbh I don't think Dedede is as bad as Kirby or Little Mac. I expect it to rise in the upcoming lists
dedede is definitely higher on this list. we’ve had the likes of kid goggles and big d show us multiple different ways to play him and his comeback ability is pretty impressive
Kirby is bottom 5.
Just like Smash 4 and Melee.
Dedede has very consistent and good ledge trapping, good range and damage. He is 100% better then Kirby.
tournament results figures from 3 weeks (at 50+ attendee events) in as a comparison point (scores based om placements at events, deets coming jan 1st or 2nd)
Wolf: 118
Inkling: 98.5
Snake: 91
Peach/Daisy: 81.5
Palutena: 81
Chrom: 71
Mega Man: 67.5
Ness: 68
Lucina: 63.5
Pokemon Trainer: 63.5
R.O.B.: 62
Fox: 59
Sonic: 56
Richter/Simon: 53.5
Yoshi: 53
Cloud: 51.5
Olimar: 50
Donkey Kong: 48.5
Pichu: 48
Roy: 46
Ike: 42
Ridley: 40.5
Mario: 39
Meta Knight: 33.5
Captain Falcon: 31
Incineroar: 30
Zero Suit Samus: 29.75
Mr. Game & Watch: 27
Pit: 26
Greninja: 26
Sheik: 25.5
King K. Rool: 25
King Dedede: 25
Link: 25
Pikachu: 22
Villager: 21.5
Young Link: 21
Toon Link: 20
Bowser: 20
Robin: 18
Zelda: 17
Wario: 17
Ganondorf: 15
Diddy Kong: 14
Samus/Dark Samus: 14
Mewtwo: 13
Pac-Man: 13
Isabelle: 11
Marth: 11
Bayonetta: 11
Falco: 11
Ken: 10.75
Mii Swordfighter: 10
Little Mac: 9
Rosalina & Luma: 9
Luigi: 9
Corrin: 9
Dark Pit: 7
Dr. Mario: 6.5
Shulk: 6
Lucas: 6
Bowser Jr.: 6
Lucario: 5
Ryu: 5
Duck Hunt: 4.5
Mii Gunner: 4.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 4.5
Jigglypuff: 4
Kirby: 3
Mii Brawler: 3
lot of nuances lost in pure numbers (Shulk and Pac's points all come from good results) so take this with a grain of salt too, but lol
Link?
Edit: like the legend of zelda guy
This may be the first time in the history of reddit where the comment "link?" wasnt asking for a url
fixed, he and dedede were next to each other
I really enjoy playing as Wolf. He’s fun as hell.
who played Mii Gunner
Small tournaments mean little, wolf is fun but he is a noob killer, specially with that projectile and smash attacks that kill at 70
Where did the Wolf results come from? I've just watched a couple of the bigger tournaments so far, but I don't remember him placing well in them, much less placing well enough to get 1st.
Probably Smash at Xanadu in MD/VA, that region has a couple of Wolf players like Seagull Joe and Dexter. You can check out the VODs on VGBootCamp's YouTube.
Oh my gosh this is hillariously bad.
I nearly died of laughter when I saw Pika in his own tier and Swordfighter in bottom 5.
Then again, this is a reddit tier list so I can't say I'm surprised.
It's crazy to see how hard Pikachu fell down after people have had the game for a while. He's still really good but he certainly isn't the best.
I still think Pikachu is the best chaarcter in the game. Maybe not alone in their own tier though.
I think the case with pika is that since there are so many new and revamped characters, everyone wants to play a new and interesting character and not classic pika, picking up pichu instead, for example. Hes was also in our heads the obvious number 1 which also couldve affect people picking him up since people dont like picking up the obvious number 1. Also his playstyle and feel is also very specific to him, and to an extent pichu, and that also turns people off from learning him cause he aint easy. Its really just ESAM carrying pikachu at this point but its clear pikachu is pretty much just as strong as we think, but other characters (such as snake) are far stronger than we anticipated. So pikachu still easily top tier imo, but not in his own above the others. Pika has so much potential tho if top players other than ESAM (from what ive seen the other pikas picked up pichu instead lol) played pikachu instead of just swordies, palutena, and inkling.
How about peach/palutena being so low. It’s kind of a joke
Can’t help but notice Snake is only -High tier and not top tier.
This subreddit is no longer part of the smash community.
MaNgO iS DaNgErOuS
Salem is right. Mango goes to Melee tournaments and does what he wants: which is playing Melee.
yEaRs Of ReSeArCh
But we’re not just a melee subreddit, right?
FRIENDSHIP WITH r/SmashBros ENDED
NOW r/SmashCirclejerk IS MY NEW BEST FRIEND
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dunno if that's a diss on palu or icies
still very amusing list tbh
I think he means Palutena is way underrated on this list. Honestly Icies doesn’t compare to her from what I’ve seen.
icies are lategame, stupidly hard tech compared to palu whos basic af, so they wont get results early at all
A buddy of mine has been cooking his desyncs against me and I already want to die
I can just imagine months from now a random japanese guy attending an american event and just wiping the floor with icies and doing some crazy tech
Agreeeed
Then you haven’t seen enough icies zero to deaths
https://youtu.be/8EMsc6oSISk
bayo in high tier LMFAOO
I almost feel bad. I played one online as PT who was juggling me super hard and doing so much damage. I was at like fucking 150 so I swapped to the zard and she did the most perfect latter combo taking me to the top blast zone and I STILL didn't die. Then I did a bair and she died at like 110
I honestly can't feel bad for her. After what she did in Smash 4, there is no remorse inside of me for the character.
were you this remorseless when meta knight got nerfed in smash 4?
idk, meta knight still always seemed pretty solid to me in ssb4 so i never felt like he got it that awful
i was just happy he seemed viable without being brawl!mk
right? it's not even accurate for her in its current state
There’s just no way Mii Swordfighter that has guaranteed kill combos starting from 80% off of neutral B is worse than Bayonetta by that much, when she can’t kill with aerials until 250%. I usually don’t judge tier lists, but this is just bad. This list just overrates a lot of characters that were top tiers in the past but heavily nerfed in Ultimate.
My irl friends were convinced Bayo and Cloud would be the best characters in this game, just because they were in 4. They proclaimed that they are broken, will always be broken, and could never be fixed, no matter what.
This mentalility is so strange to me, I play lol, and some characters came out so strong they could 1v3 or more early in the game, and then in a few patches, they are garbage. Game balance is way more explosive and dramatic than people think, tiny changes can breaker a character.
Tell that to Zero, who still thinks that Bayo, somehow, CANNOT be bad. Like not even that she isn't bad in Ultimate, but that it's impossible to make her bad.
Proceeds to change it so all of Bayo's hits are 5 frames unsafe on hit and 10 frames unsafe on block...
Zero: "Nope, still a great character, high tier at the very worst. I know this because her kit makes it so she can't be bad because she's fast and has combos and that's all anyone needs."
Fuck me.
I love Zero, and I think he will calm down. He still resents Bayo for killing 4, and he is pretty much the only person I can forgive for that. I really think she sucked the fun out of the game for him, he was on top of the game, a character comes out who is so OP, it feels like it barely matters who is playing it, and suddenly he is facing this broken character at every turn. It must have really sucked.