Star Wars fans have likely all seen the photo of George Lucas on the set of The Mandalorian, cradling Baby Yoda like a proud grandfather, but there is something about that slightly blurry snapshot that they don’t know. Just out of frame stood another beloved galactic figure who until then had only existed in animation—Rosario Dawson as Ahsoka Tano.

Her casting was long rumored online, but no one else got to see her as the Force wielder with the blue and white headtails and twin lightsabers until last Friday’s new episode of the Disney+ series. That chapter—“The Jedi”—not only unveiled the live-action, grown-up version of the The Clone Wars and Rebels hero, but also dropped new information about Baby Yoda’s past and hinted at another fan-favorite Star Wars figure, Grand Admiral Thrawn, who may appear in the future.

Dawson and Dave Filoni, the writer-director of the episode who developed Ahsoka with Lucas during their years working together in animation, spoke exclusively with Vanity Fair about the biggest revelations—from the Child’s name and backstory, to the reason for setting the story on a wildfire-stricken planet. Dawson also addressed a lingering personal controversy that has concerned many fans of Ahsoka.

First, we start where all Star Wars tales begin:

A Long Time Ago

Vanity Fair: Where did it begin with Rosario playing Ahsoka? When did this concept first come to you both?

Rosario Dawson: Actually it first came from fans online. Someone tweeted me and fan-cast me. I retweeted back and I was like, “Absolutely, yes please” and “#AhsokaLives.” And apparently that got the attention of someone who has been doing the Star Wars press for years. She forwarded it to Dave Filoni. That kind of started a whole thing. I was like, “Oh my goodness, did I just get fan-cast in something?” And then nothing happened.

Dave Filoni: That was the first time and I looked at Rosario and I thought, Huh. Yeah, I think maybe she would make a good Ahsoka. I just kept loosely aware of what she was up to, and she was doing some Marvel things. But I’d seen interviews with her where she would talk about wanting to play the character and her excitement, so it was interesting.

People might assume that when she was asked that, it was already in the works.

Filoni: Oh, no. Not at all. I was still trying to figure out how to get off Tatooine myself at that point. But when I started working with Jon [Favreau], I’d bring up the character and he’s like, 
“Well, who are you thinking of playing her?” I said, “Well, Rosario Dawson’s top of my list,” and he’s like, “I know her!” So immediately that starts to fit really well.

Dawson: People have been fan-casting me on all kinds of things, like She-Hulk and stuff. And I always just think it’s really fun, because I get to see myself in different kinds of art. But then I got a FaceTime call from Jon Favreau and Dave. They were building out The Mandalorian, and I got to have a behind-the-scenes look at visuals and concept [from] what they were planning on doing with this second season.

When was this?

Dawson: They were just about to drop the first one, and they had all of this art that had me as Ahsoka. They had already been preparing, knowing that they wanted to have her be a part of a story in the second season. They’d just been visualizing me in this role that whole time, and it was mind-boggling.

What was it like seeing yourself in concept art as this alien warrior?

Dawson: I actually was glad because I had really bad reception, and so I ended up just going to the audio. So I was pacing and jumping up and down, trying to keep really cool in my voice, but I was freaking out. I mean, this is real Star Wars—the font, the look, the art, the everything, and my face in there. I just, I couldn’t. I was beside myself, and they were asking, “Do you want to do this? I mean, we appreciate if it’s not something you want to do.” And I was like, “Oh, no, no, that would be cool, actually. I think we could maybe work this out.” Trying to play it cool, but I was sweating.

The Anakin Connection

So you were a fan already?

Dawson: I’d seen some of Clone Wars, and once I got the role, I actually went and started watching everything in its order. I started seeing a lot more of the connective tissue. There was always that conversation around Ahsoka leaving the Order, and that being a major trigger for Anakin going toward the Dark Side. It was just really incredible that the character started off as a teenager, you know?

Ahsoka stands out as the first lead female Jedi in Star Wars storytelling. What did you connect with personally?

Dawson: I found it so fascinating that there was this whole other world that existed in the animated series, and this young girl was the heart of that space. I had a particular kind of interest in her and in that character because when I first started acting at 15, I did this movie, Kids, and I got paid like $1,000 to work on it. When the movie came out, I decided at 16 that I wanted to continue pursuing acting. My dad’s mom said, “Well, if you’re going to do that, and you’re 16 years old, then you need to study acting,” and put me in Strasberg. And it happened to be that summer when Hayden Christensen was in—we had the same class.

And you later worked together, right?

Dawson: We ended up doing this movie together years later called Shattered Glass, and I always just thought it was really cool that I knew someone who was not just in Star Wars but played Anakin Skywalker. Ahsoka was his Padawan, so when the fan-casting came out, I just thought it was pretty wild that I visually connected to this character from being this teenager who met this actor who ended up being this great character. I don’t know, it just felt like the Force was at play.

Filoni: When I was first exploring the possibility of directing live-action, I asked [Lucasfilm president] Kathleen Kennedy about casting and when you knew someone was right for a part. She thought about it and said, “You just know.” And she was right. When I met Rosario, I just knew she was right for Ahsoka. Yes, there was the tweet and her interest in the part; yes, she has been in action movies and is a huge fan of sci-fi and fantasy stories; yes, she knew Hayden Christensen and pictures of them together look like Anakin and Ahsoka. But in the end, when I met her and we talked, I just knew.

Speaking of casting, can you share any insights into choosing stunt legend Diana Lee Inosanto as the robber baron Magistrate and Michael Biehn as her enforcer? 

Filoni: I needed the performance from the Magistrate to challenge Ahsoka and be someone that could go toe to toe with her instantly. Diana brings such experience and knowledge about martial arts to her performance. The instant she takes up the Beskar spear you can tell that she is a lethal opponent. For me, as a director, it was a great advantage to have someone of Diana’s skill and experience with fight choreography as one of the main players, especially for the final battle in the courtyard. 

And Biehn? He’s had his share of battling in both space and the Old West.

Filoni: That moment came when I penned this script and created an experienced gunslinger to go up against Mando. Michael’s experience and understanding of the language of Westerns were really valuable on set. He had a whole philosophy about how his gunslinger would attempt to go up against someone like Mando, which we wove into his scenes. He thinks of every detail, even the number of times he would fire his weapon. In both Michael and Diana I had two people who knew their characters; they brought so much to the roles through their personal skills and experiences. As the villains of the story I felt we had a good matchup of Mando and Ahsoka versus the Magistrate and her gunslinger.

Creating Ahsoka’s Look

Can you describe the process of adapting Ahsoka from drawings and animation to real life? What has to change?

Filoni: It was a pretty amazing thing as we designed the costume and worked out all the details of that. Everything got considered to an unbelievable degree—the headtails, the horns, I can’t even tell you. It’s hard. It’s so rare a person in my position from animation gets to craft and guide the character’s jump to live-action.

Dawson: What I love about the Togruta is that they have these facial markings, but they’re all different on all of the different women that we’ve seen. In the cartoon it almost looks like a face paint, but [Filoni] really wanted it to come off as very natural.

Filoni: Many tests were done, screen tests, because within the Volume [The Mandalorian set that creates backgrounds on a giant digital screen] it will tend to lean magenta. You have to worry about how a character like Ahsoka would look because the temperature that we have her orange could be dramatically different in the Volume than in stage shots. So there were tiny little considerations that had to be made and adjusted.

Dawson: They definitely wanted [the makeup] to be very warm and natural. In the animation it’s very different and bold, and the lighting is so different. But in the real world they wanted it to have a different kind of energy. It was fun to be able to see how that shifted when she had the lightsabers closer to her face, how you see it and feel it differently in the different lighting and the smoke.

How do you make sure that the makeup and headpiece don’t get in the way of the performance?

Filoni: Yes, it’s tricky. That was one of the big considerations. Performance-wise I don’t want her to be lost in all of this headgear and makeup, but she definitely is not. I kept things subtle in some ways with the markings. I mean, the funny thing is that the white markings over the brow are always done in animation to give an eyebrow performance. I didn’t want a brightly saturated character. Again, in animation it works, but in live-action I think it works another way, and so you just have to play with the values and see.

There’s a lot of lightsaber fighting in this episode too. Was that a consideration with the headtail prosthetics?

Dawson: Everything was pretty firmly on. Everything was built specifically to my skull and body, and the headband that she has on with the tails actually clips in the back and holds it in place. We were doing stunts in it and everything, and it wasn’t going anywhere.

What else had to happen as part of the transformation into Ahsoka?

Filoni: I said, “Well, Ahsoka’s eyes are blue and yours are not, but I don’t want you to worry about it. If you don’t want to go for that, we can just say that in this version they’re not.” And Rosario insisted. She’s like, “No, no, no. Let me try it.”

Dawson: I remember when I put the contacts on, that was when it really solidified—the headpiece, the tails, the shape, the coloring, everything. Doing the face marking, doing my skin, wearing the costume, all of that was absolutely incredible. But I still kind of felt like I was in cosplay. The second the contacts went in, it was Ahsoka. I felt like I disappeared.

George Lucas Encounter

We heard a lot of stories about Werner Herzog being obsessed with Baby Yoda when he was on the show last season. I wondered, Rosario, what’s it like to be around…I guess after this episode we can call him Grogu now? Maybe I should call him the Artist Formerly Known as Baby Yoda?

Dawson: [Laughs.] It built it up for me. Like, what is it going to be like when I get on set? And actually some of the guys who worked with Grogu were folks I had met before, because they worked on Men in Black II with the worm guys. So it’s like, these people have been doing this for a really, really long time, and there’s several different guys, and one controls the ears, and the other one the eyes, and the arms are moving. You’re holding this adorable, unbelievably cute, tiny little creature, and it’s blinking, it’s looking at you, and its mouth is moving, and its ears are moving, and it’s so soft, the little hairs on its head. [Sighs.] I mean, it’s unbelievable. I completely was with Werner. I understood what he was going on about. 

You also got to meet up with George Lucas on set.

Dawson: I actually got to be there on the day that there’s that photo. Someone took a picture of George Lucas holding Baby Yoda. I’m still calling him Baby Yoda—Grogu! I was there that day. I was all dressed up, I was just off to the side of that photo, all done up as Ahsoka. And I remember it broke the internet when that picture came out. It was just an amazing, amazing moment, and we were all beside ourselves. It was definitely very “geek out.”

What was your experience with George?

Dawson: I was definitely nerve-racked, and it was great to be there with him and Dave. I mean, it’s a lot of pressure. But it was also really fun. Both of them were looking at me but they weren’t, you know what I mean? They were looking at their imaginations come to life.

Ahsoka’s Spirit

Fans have watched Ahsoka grow up on The Clone Wars, they’ve seen her go off on her own, seen her fighting as a lone wolf in Rebels. What did you want to reveal about her at this point, much later in her life?

Filoni: She is, for lack of a term, a master, because she’s largely an independent at this point. I play her much more as a knowledgeable knight. A wandering samurai character is what she really is at this point. I’ve always made comparisons to her heading toward the Gandalf stage, where she is the one that has the knowledge of the world and can help others through it. I think she’s reached that point. 

How would you describe her overall journey?

Filoni: We saw her basically hit the scene as a Padawan: young, and naïve, and brash, and aggressive. Then, in Rebels, she’s more of a traditional knight, trying to figure out how to fight a war. There’s a lot of hesitation around what she wants to be and who she can be and how her life’s been guided. I think that now I’ve taken that a step further. When you see this version of the character, she’s world-weary from everything that she’s experienced and lived through. She’s seen so much happen in her time.

The episode is called “The Jedi,” but Ahsoka’s whole identity is based around leaving the Order.

Filoni: Yeah, I think something fans like about the character is that she’s rather complex. They all focus very hard on the line, “I am no Jedi,” from Star Wars: Rebels, but it’s undeniable that she’s trained by the Jedi. I think to most observers she is very Jedi to them. I would argue in some ways—by being so selfless and rejecting a lot of paths that would have given her power—she’s more Jedi-like than even some characters who claim to be Jedi.

Dawson: I love that she is this wanderer character who is going to just do good in the universe. The Jedi Order has disappeared in many ways, it’s so fractured, and so many people are targeted. She’s lost so much. She had left that Order under duress, and she’s just been finding her way. And since the very beginning, the way that has been pulling her is to be vigilant, and to be brave, and to be wise, and to always have her eye set on rooting out evil. And I think that’s one of the reasons why so many love her. It’s why I love her. She represents truly the best of the Jedi, you know?

Ashley Eckstein gave voice to the character for so many years. What impact did she have on the live-action version?

Dawson: Ashley did a remarkable job. You’ve seen this character first come into our hearts and minds as a teenager and then evolve, and Ashley has been there the entire way. Seeing how her voice changed, how her energy changed, and to hear the maturity develop in her was just so powerful and so beautiful. I studied it like crazy and tried my best to honor that. And it was just incredible to be able to have such an in-depth performance to source.

Filoni: Ashley’s fantastic, and I think the character that she played, Ahsoka as the young Padawan apprentice and then going into Rebels, obviously made its mark—plus the animation team who made this Padawan such a household name among Star Wars fans. It’s a pretty magic thing and it speaks to how well crafted the character is by that group. I wrote pretty much all of her character from when she’s 14 all the way up through this, and normally someone in my position wouldn’t get to do that. It would have changed hands several times.

A Real-Life Controversy

Ahsoka does mean a great deal to people, and they’re deeply invested in who she is. So, Rosario, I want to ask you about something that’s outside of this story of The Mandalorian, and that’s the concern in the fandom about a lawsuit that was filed against you last year by a longtime family friend. The claim accused you and other family members of anti-trans bias, and you’ve called the lawsuit false and baseless. But what do you say to those Star Wars fans who hear this and believe the worst—that you are transphobic?  

Dawson: Well, firstly, I just want to say I understand that, and why people were concerned, and are concerned. I would be too if I heard some of those claims. But I mean, as we’re seeing right now in these past months, and just recently, actually, the truth is coming out. Every single claim of discrimination has been dismissed by the person who made them, and as you’ve said, the fact that this is coming from someone I’ve known since I was a teenager, the better part of my life, and who my family was trying to help as we have many times in the past, it really just makes me sad. But I still have a great empathy for him.

Court records show 18 of the 20 claims were withdrawn voluntarily without a settlement, and his lawyer left the case. Two counts remain alleging a physical altercation, and a judge will rule on whether that can move forward next month. There are people that would say, “Well, this is just another example of a wealthy, famous person overpowering the system.” So what would you say to those people who are unconvinced, both about this case and about what you actually believe about trans people?

Dawson: The reason that all of the discrimination claims were dropped is because they didn’t happen. I was raised in a very inclusive and loving way, and that’s how I’ve lived my entire life. I’ve always used my voice to fight for, lift up, and empower the LGBTQA community, and use my platform to channel trans voices, in fiction and nonfiction work that I’ve produced and directed. So I feel the record is really clear.

The Personal Elements

For the roles that mean the most to actors, they often talk about carrying a part with them beyond the performance. You put yourself into a character, and then you take a little with you. What would you say you take home from playing Ahsoka?

Dawson: That the journey isn’t always easy, that it isn’t always clear, that this isn’t about magic, you know? To make things how you want them to be, it takes work and diligence and love to really make the difference. And I believe everybody has those powers, and everybody has to continue trying. It’s not like you become a Jedi and then that’s it, you’re good. They have to keep making that choice.

Dave, in writing the episode, you set it on a forest world that has been turned into a scorched wasteland. I expected to find Ahsoka somewhere lush, like the first moon of Endor or Yoda’s swamp world of Dagobah, but instead you brought us to a cinder.

Filoni: In all honesty, [that] just comes out of my own personal experience living in an area [in Northern California] where there are fires. My wife and I have been evacuated three of the last four years, every fall. So I guess I’m just telling a story and can some way control it for myself. But yeah, I’ve known a lot of people that are terribly affected by it, and it’s a powerful, powerful thing.

It’s beautiful in its way, but also terrifying.

Filoni: I just thought it would be really haunting. There is a foreboding feeling, I think, through the episode and what transpires in it, so it’s got its magic moments. Where you see life in the sets and where you don’t is part of the story. Most of the sets are dead and burnt, but then when you encounter Ahsoka there’s a little bit of green and life around her. That’s all just emblematic, little visual cues that you can tell to reinforce story points.

Is it a blessing or a curse for Ahsoka to have these powers?

Dawson: It’s a gift, but it’s one that requires discipline. And we all have gifts, but we’re not all very disciplined. And I think that she is such a strong reminder of what that looks like to be that steadfast, to be that clear, and not to do it because she’s got all the support and love and company, but because she knows deep inside of her this is who she is, and what she is meant to do, and this is her purpose, and she is going to honor that every single day and choose it every single day, even when it’s hard.

Or not. She advises stepping away from the Force completely in this episode, when it comes to the baby.

Dawson: You saw that with Anakin’s story, and you see that with Ahsoka as well. She recognizes that. That’s why she brings it up with the Child as well. He has these incredible abilities, and you’ve seen him be able to wield the Force. He’s been trained in the Jedi Temple. But as she says, because of his attachment, it makes him vulnerable to fear, which makes him vulnerable to anger, which means that he could be dangerous. That means maybe we should just let his Force sensitivity just wane, you know?

Baby Yoda Revelations

What’s the story behind Grogu—the name of our little green friend?

Filoni: The name has been around for a while. Jon told me early on in season one what it would be, which made me start to think about how people could learn the name. This gave me the idea that Ahsoka, who is very compassionate, would be able to connect with the Child, and that without words they could probably communicate through memories and experiences. Through that connection, she learns the name and then tells Mando and the audience.

Like Rey in The Force Awakens, the Mandalorian doesn’t really know the full Star Wars story. He has no idea who Yoda is. Is that why you turned to Ahsoka for this, so she can say, “Oh, yeah. I know what this thing is.…It’s a baby Yaddle!”

Filoni: No, that would have been the best moment ever. That’s the way I should have gone with it. [Laughs.] Again, I thought one of the most compelling things about introducing Ahsoka is that she is one of the few, few people that we could encounter in a story and she would say, “All right. I met someone like him. I’ve only ever seen one other being like this.” I had to stop myself from doing something ridiculous like have her say, “Is that a Yoda baby?” It almost demands to be said.

She invokes his name, but there’s another allusion…

Filoni: She sees this child and names the name “Yoda” for [the first time] in our show. [Composer] Ludwig Göransson does a really masterful thing where the music, just for a moment, becomes John Williams’s “Yoda’s Theme.” Those are those little overlapping moments that I just love, and it’s why I’ve always insisted on using Star Wars music so fleetingly because you don’t want that unless you’re talking about that character. It’s their music. We had an opportunity to just give it a little grace moment.

It’s their spirit, right, when that music plays?

Filoni: Yeah, the feeling of it. It’s just an acknowledgement to that great performance by Frank Oz and the great character design. There’s no way that the name Yoda Baby wasn’t going to happen just given the stature of Yoda himself, so I think it’s a nice nod to the history. We can honor people who really put this thing on the map.

Why was now the right time to reveal the baby’s backstory and origin?

Filoni: I felt that if anyone would know or understand the Child’s history it would be Ahsoka. She has such a long history as well. By having her relate the story it also helps the viewer to understand some of her own backstory. This is similar to when Obi-Wan tells Luke about his father’s history. Through the story about Anakin, you are getting a look at Obi-Wan and his backstory as well. A lot of the campfire scene, as I call it, is shaped around that scene between Obi-Wan and Luke in A New Hope.

Ahsoka fears the worst, which is how we get her line to the Mandalorian that hints at Anakin’s turn into Darth Vader.

Dawson: She knows what could happen if you go even remotely to the Dark Side. I love that she throws a line in this about Anakin. She knows what could happen even to “the best of us” when fear and anger take root, and she’s so vigilant about that. She is a lonely character, I think. But the Force is compelling her to just continue to do good. 

Filoni: She wants to do good and help people, but rather than do it like the Jedi did, which was all wound up in the politics of the Republic, she’s doing it on an individual basis in the galaxy. Plus, she has a larger quest, which is always more fun when they have a larger quest.

That quest, we learn, is a search for the villain Grand Admiral Thrawn. The last time fans saw Ahsoka was this spring's finale of The Clone Wars, but in the actual Star Wars chronology, the last time we saw her was at the end of Rebels, venturing off with Sabine Wren to find Ezra Bridger, who vanished along with Thrawn. Where does that scene fit in with where we find her in The Mandalorian?

Filoni: Right. But no, it's an interesting one… That's not necessarily chronological. I think the thing that people will most not understand is they want to go in a linear fashion, but as I learned as a kid, nothing in Star Wars really works  in a linear fashion. You do [Episodes] Four, Five and Six and then One, Two, and Three. So in the vein of that history, when you look at the epilogue of Rebels you don't really know how much time has passed. So, it's possible that the story I'm telling in The Mandalorian actually takes place prior to that. Possible. I'm saying it's possible.

This Q&A has been edited and condensed from two separate interviews.

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