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With team work making the dream work, what party competition would be the most the strongest, not as individuals but as a group and for all aspects of play not just combat. Limited to a party of 4.
Personally I believe this party would be
A giant instinct barbarian with doublestrike, while I wouldn't say on it fighter is stronger, barbarians just generally are better recipients for and giant instinct makes for this strange almost glass cannon that if you can keep alive will be able to kill just about anything
A redeemer champion for defending the party and debuffing enemies and sure up some of the defensive problems of giant instinct
A Maestro for powerful buffs in debuff like courageous anthem, haste, heroism, or deeg of doom along with potential being great of charisma skills and having access to plenty of utility magic to get the parts through problems you can't hit
Finally, a cleric to provide amazing healing to be barbarian as being a prepared caster to cover more niche spells as well as giving the party some amount of AOE with higher level Cleric spells, I was gonna give this to life Oracle but ultimately the access the good wisdom skills won out in the end for me
5 Monks dressed in red, green, yellow, pink, and blue
Sad purple monk sounds.
Sad green monk sounds
The green monk comes in half way through the campaign, a few levels ahead of the rest, and is introduced as a servant of the bbeg
Then joins after 3 sessions, but leaves after 5, then comes back in white. Also switched out his knife for a scimitar
... is there a purple Ranger? Ive never actually watched Power Rangers
So-so gesture Jungle Fury (2009) had one but it was called the "Wolf Ranger", while Dino Charge (2015 or 2016) did have an actual Purple Ranger.
The last season of super Sentai had a nonbinary purple ranger
Before I would say kobolds, one of each color.
Why oa everyone forgetting the black monk?
How are you defining optimal? Fastest clear time? Most reliably victory? Most versatile? Able to win against the largest level disparity? Best at avoiding fights? Most fun to play?
Seems like what and where they're fighting will be a pretty significant factor.
That's for you too decided with your most optimal party, my definition is being able to excel in difficult situations in all pillars of play. Basically versatility, large hoards, single high level enemies, infiltrating the evil dukes ball, sneaky through a place they don't belong
I think if a party locks all their damage potential into melee, it’s far from being the most optimal. Most enemies can just kite them into oblivion.
Here’s my “optimal” party but I wanna include the caveat that I think there are several arguably optimal parties because of how balanced the game is. I’m assuming no Free Archetype, though I don’t think the party changes too significantly with Free Archetype either.
Stone Druid w/ Order Explorer for Animal Companion: In single-enemy fights, they focus on throwing out reliable ranged damage. In multi-enemy fights they either use AoE damage or battlefield control, depending on which the party needs more. Covers Wisdom skills and tons of Primal utility spells. The Animal Companion gets used for throwing in extra damage or defence onto the field whenever a situation calls for it.
Starlit Span Magus: Functions as bursty, resourceless ranged damage dealer. Complements the former’s AoE whenever needed with Expansive Spellstrike. Covers Dexterity and Intelligence skills, with minor focus on Arcane utility.
Flurry of Maneuvers Monk: In single target fights the priority is using options like Flurry of Maneuevers and Stand Still to lock down the enemy and protect the ranged backline. In multi-enemy fights the Monk needs to work in tandem with the Druid’s control options, but once Tangled Forest Stance becomes a thing they can fully handle it on their own. Covers Strength and Dexterity skills.
Warrior + Multifarious Maestro Bard: Uses buffs/debuffs as appropriate for a Bard, but also uses the Warrior-based spells to provide extra movement or defences for the party as needed. Covers Charisma skills + Occult utility. Functions as primary healer in situations that need it, but the party’s first priority in all situations is not needing heals at all.
This party definitely looks strong - but I could imagine it struggling in a close-quarters fight against Reactive Strike users. I think this probably just goes to show how hard it is to make an "optimal" party in this game - it's near-impossible to imagine a party without some type of achilles heel.
What is the importance of the stone order to the druid in this composition?
Reliable focus spell with good damage and okay control attached. Storm works as well, I just think Stone is marginally better.
While I do think this is a strong party, it seems more like it's 4 versatile people that covers weak points but doesn't have a ton of synergy between them, the monk seems to be the main conduit for buffs but the monk isn't making themselves a great target for these buffs because they're more control focus, I think it would be better to swap the magus for a ranged thamatuterge (I'd suggest thrown weapon crossbow can work), they makes great single target damage dealer and can absolutely use there implement interruption to capitalize of the monks maneuvers and shut down spell casters, thamatuterge can also bring a lot of utility
What do you mean, not a lot of synergy? The Monk holds the frontline (with some control help from the Druid), focusing the majority of the enemies' damage onto the toughest class in the game. The Druid is helping hold the frontline, alongside providing amazing consistent damage. The Magus is providing great burst damage, and is especially helped by the Monk making targets Off-Guard to ranged attacks. The Bard can help provide positioning, debuffs, and can decide between Courageous Anthem and Song of Strength whenever needed.
I'm confused by your assertion that there has to be one character that gets a whole bunch of buffs funneled into them, specifically?
The ranged Thaumaturge is going to be requiring more defensive support than the Magus since it'll be a lot closer to the enemy forces, and still do less damage. Additionally, within the current party composition, the utility it provides is mostly redundant (Druid got the wisdom skills, Bard got the charisma skills, the last gap are the intelligence RK skills that Magus is already covering).
That's kinda the crucks of it, your party is good but your not really pushing anyone strengths beyond what just having a support character would have, having character to have more lopsided power that gets there weakness completely covered by the rest of them party makes a stronger one over all and while yes a magus is bursty, it's locking in 3 attacks to do so and need to get into a stance to begin with, a stance they also lock out of other archer supporting stances and does all while there Arcane cascade doesn't provide its damage benefits to ranged attacks which would stop it from procing weakness. While the thamatuterge comes far far more damage than your giving it credit for, it's better able to capitalize off the parties heavy control focus and is able later to make enemies weak to the monk's or bards strikes
You clearly have not seen a starlit span magus in play before, they are borderline OP and will far out damage a Thaum. They don't care about stances or arcane cascade - they open with a surestrike and spellstrike and go from there and will destroy targets. AAA's party is far superior to yours because you discount how powerful the monk will be when tripping/standstill which will boost everyone not to mention the bard further debuffing and with all of that the magus will be obliterating everyone as they crit on their spellstrikes.
Source? A character with lopsided power means that the rest of the party is bringing less power themselves because they have to patch up the weaknesses of that one member, meanwhile in a balanced party you don't have to worry about it. It's like 1.2 + 0.8 vs 1 + 1 even in an ideal situation for your build, and that still has to deal with the fact that disproportionate power on one character makes the party a lot more likely to be significantly countered by even slightly unusual circumstances.
Well no, it needs 2 actions to Spellstrike. With the 100 foot range on the Gakgung, that's a very easy cost to pay. Recharging is a whole separate action, and can easily be cheesed as needed with Conflux spells.
You can (and should) literally just ignore it, no need at all.
https://imgur.com/Z6Cvsh1
https://imgur.com/8G9Nl1P
Only at level 10, only for extra action cost, only if they're successfully exploiting a mortal weakness. That is not capable of making up the 57% more damage the Magus is doing at that level.
The problem with "lopsided" parties is that there are powerful control effects in this game - and you will sometimes get unlucky. It's all well and good if four characters can work together perfectly to cover their weaknesses, but if the Champion crit-fails against a Command spell and spends half the fight in another room, you're left with a massive Champion-shaped hole in your party and nobody who can step in to fill it.
The party has tons of synergy. “Buff a martial, martial deals damage” isn’t the only form of synergy.
The Monk synergizes with the whole party via their incredible tanking. Their goal is to keep the backline safe and deal poke damage along the way. The Druid supplements this via area control spells. The whole party plays nicely with this by operating super well at range. The Monk doesn’t need to be a “better target for buffs” because this party doesn’t really need increased damage.
As for buffs, Courageous Anthem will function as a fantastic buff for levels 1-3 even if only the Magus benefits, because these are the levels where a Magus’s Spellstrike damage is disproportionately good. Once it starts falling off, the Bard can have picked up Courageous Advance to really synergizes with the whole party, using extra movement to make sure the party always operates at its peak. At higher levels the Bard then has the choice to build towards Defensive Coordination or to pick Dirge of Doom. Imo Dirge is the way to go to make sure the Druid benefits from the debuffing more.
I responded to the other guy with more explained out thoughts, to add one more thing to my other message is the biggest way to add synergy is by getting another member of the party able to capitalize off the monks maneuvers which the thamatuterge does exceptional well while still putting out incredibly base damage, having so stand up and about getting up being interrupted by 2 separate classes (one of which can do so on just a hit later) would put the monks maneuvers into another league
I think the problem here is that doubling down on one single play pattern doesn’t really have tangible benefits.
For example you bring up doubling up on Stand Still + Implement’s Interruption. But what’s the upside here? You’ll interrupt them standing up more often, sure, but is interrupting their standing up really that important? When a Monk knocks you back+down, you’re already 1-3 Strides away from everyone the Monk is trying to protect. Even when you successfully stand up, you’re not exactly threatening the backline. So what benefit is the extra disrupt attempt bringing here?
Meanwhile trying to double up on this effect introduced a lot of downsides into the mix. You now have a second much squishier character than the Monk standing within 10 feet of the enemy (the range on Implement’s Interruption). Plenty of enemies have a 10+ foot reach, and can now just… not stand up and attack you. And if the fight isn’t a single boss, it’s now much harder for the Druid to protect the backline than it would be if the Monk were the only melee. You do less damage than the Magus you replaced and you weakened the Monk’s control+damage, demanded additional healing from your Bard, and got in the way of your Druid for… a slightly higher chance that the enemy who was going to waste 1 Action standing up anyways will now waste 2?
And the funny part is, if doubling up on Stand Still’s effect is really crucial to winning a battle (as it surely would be sometimes) the… Druid and/or Bard can just cast Slow. There’s no actual need to commit to the much more dangerous melee option here.
Generally speaking, it’s more optimal to have variety of options that cover everyone’s weaknesses in PF2E. Linear gameplans that double down on one aspect are “win more” for lack of a better phrasing. You become better against things you were already good against and become worse against things you weren’t the best against.
Not everything in this game is about throwing big numbers at the enemy. They help, sure, but removing enemy actions is absolutely the strongest thing you can do in this game.
I'm going to take most optimal as most able to operate in a variety of circumstance.
Warpriest Cleric: Combines both great Support and Offensive Potential. Probably the closest you can get to one class that is at least semi-optimal in the widest variety of situation.
Mastermind Rogue: For both a Supremely Good Skill Monkey and the ability to whittle enemies down with sneak. Potentially viable both as a Ranged and Melee. (Could alternatively go with an Investigator)
Fighter: Fighter's ability to hit well is frankly just unsurpassed. If you want a reliable dedicated Martial it's probably going to be some sort of fighter. You can also archetype into Marshal for really good support to the Cleric and Rogue in a melee context.
Wizard or Druid: Wizards are hugely versatile spellcasters. Not able to heal, but able to perform both offensively and supportively in almost any context if prepared. Similarly, Druid has the Primal spell list which is really damn good as well. Able to split the difference and provide good offense, defense, support, and heals.
Good old Fighter/Rogue/Cleric/Wizard, nothing beats that!
If it ain't broke don't fix it right? I feel like most optimal has to be most versatile. Because when we paint in such broad strokes, you have to look at the game as a whole. Which has so many different possible combat and exploration situations.
What happens when this party fights anything that flies?
Barbarian just starts throwing team members towards the enemy.
That is a good point, any potential changes, maybe the champion for a ambulate thamatuterge for slightly less defense but a better potential ranged damage dealer
Fly spell from caster on Fighter. Or Fly + Quicken Fly on both melee. Fighter flies, Improved Knockdown - bye bye. Or trip. Or Felling Strike. Command: Approch/Prone spell from Caster. Also some ancestries have flying. Winged rune on armor has flying. And flying is really not that good unless it's ranged flying enemy because if melee it will provoke Reactive Strikes since it can't Step, and with Rooting rune (which is new meta after Hammer/Flail changes) that can lock enemy on crit. There are many many ways to bring down flying enemies.
But overall, ideally you always want someone who can shoot enemies or spam them with spells. But not more than one range character in party + your main support caster. Double melee is way more important.
Command is really really good vs flying enemies. Flying boss is only issue till point where he gets Improved Knockdown in face, which is not hard
Fly too? Not like it's too hard to get access to it.
Cleric should have access to legacy airwalk
When you picked giant barbarian, I was certain you'd also pick flurry ranger but so wrong I was. Lowered MAP on a barbarian is insane with wardens boon, and because of how well a ranger can synch, I would include it in anyway possible in an optimal composition.
Having both bard and cleric would be optimal IMO as they overlap quite abit. Adding in that you also put in a reedeemer, which also heals, the party is way too defensive to succeed on some odd encounters or ranged combat
I think you make some good points, I think swapping out the cleric for a dex focused flurry ranger would be better though I do believe a solid defensive foundation is key to a strong party as it really help when things go wrong wether the dice are not on your side or your in a really tight spot
Defences are important, but I would say secure reliable effects and damage can be just as important as a supplement. A champion goes really well with a giant barbarian because there are incentives to attack both, making it punishing for any enemies, and is probably a reason why I would prefer a Paladin over reedeemer.
Having a dexfocused pc is also important for dexfocused skill challanges, which could be seen as an optimal thing to do.
I would probably have a champion, barbarian, druid and a bard as my optimal party due to the need for secure damage and elemental damage
Okay so, this is a giant question, that obviously ends with "it depends", but that isn't a satisfying answer to anybody.
First, I'm going to define my own version of "optimal party", using an in world metric. If an in world character, is looking at a list of characters, and is trying to make an optimal party, they would want.
1:) The ability to survive any circumstance
2:) The ability to finish any objective
3:) The ability to coordinate regardless of situation (or otherwise cooperate and help each other out)
Aka, the ability to survive, complete an objective, cooperate, and flexibility. So while there are 4 goals and 4 characters, the 4th goal requires the other 3 to be able to merge into one another, and maybe a focus on survival.
There are 4 things to be able to properly do any objective. Knowledge, charisma, fighting, and speed.
Now groundwork is out of the way, let's get into the characters.
Most obvious character is a champion or amulet thaumaturge. Since they won't be our only frontline, amulet thaumaturge. This on it's own gives us a good character for survival, knowledge, and charisma.
For our next character, a warpriest makes a good option. Maxing out wisdom and strength, we got a good martial support. At higher levels they can invest into monk archetype and get flurry of maneuvers. They can act as another boon of survivability, give us some solid wisdom/perception, and allow the frontline to function with maneuvers. Grab might domain and bam, speed.
Next I want to round our magic by getting all the essences by getting arcana,. We have 5 options. Sorcerer, Summoner, Magus, Wizard, and Witch. Magus gives us damage, Summoner gives us more frontline and charisma. Sorcerer gives us spontaneous casting and charisma. Wizard gives us super flexibility. Witch gives us a daily familiar (aka stronger frontline). We want a non wave caster, so no summoner or magus. We already have a good frontline, so no witch. Let's go wizard cause there aren't any arcane sorcerers we want. Grab staff nexus and universalist, bam, all the flexibility we could ask for.
Now, we have a strong frontline, with the ability to do martial maneuvers, and provide buffs from any essence. We have someone with every mental stat, and a 2nd attribute of any martial stat other than con. Main thing we are missing is a jack, since the frontline is pretty specialized, having an agile switch hitter would be an amazing boon. For agility, we have to be talking monk, swashbuckler, or kineticist (air). All this build up, for the not so hidden, kineticist.
Air/Earth/Wood kineticist gives us everything we want. This build come online later than others, at level 9 where we can get all 3 elements and air junction. That said, earth/air gives us a ton of support and mobility, and wood helps bridge the gap between the two and gives us some healing and more support.
In all, we have a Amulet thaumaturge, a Might domain warpriest, a Staff nexus universalist wizard, and a Air/Earth/Wood kineticist. This gives us all mental stats, 2 strength 2 dex focused characters, an abundence of ranged options, a strong frontline, mobility, and an ungodly amount of utility. Also we have the nice added benefit of having a very thematic party, with everyone being themed around a tradition (if you count thaumaturge as being occult, which I do).
Damn this actually sounds like a fun party too.
This party sounds really strong and honestly the only gab I see is that the lack of someone who could cover dex skills which can be very big, someone who can hide an steal can be a life saver and as well as potentially damage on the lower side though I think a thamatuterge built right could cover both of these problems
Definitely +1 on the air/earth Kineticist. I rolled one in Dawnsbury Days and it surprised me how often it felt impactful. High STR midrange in equivalent of plate armor with the ability to let everyone take ½ Stride.
A Goblin Psychic, Leshy Wood Kineticist, Kobold Draconic Sorcerer w/ Dragon Disciple, and a Bard of any Ancestry is the optimal combo for setting up for and delivering Deez Nuts jokes. Which we all know as players is the only measurement of success in a session.
A theorycraft party I came up with for destroying bosses:
Resentment Witch: The core of this party. Extends debuffs from the other party members as well as provides their own support in the form of buffs, debuffs and control.
Redeemer Champion: Can apply enfeebled and stupefied that the Resentment Witch can extend. Weight of Guilt helps Resentment Witch land their Will targetting spells.
One-Handed/Grappler Fighter: Crushing Rune and Phantasmal Doorknob to apply effects for the Resentment Witch. Resentment Witch can extend grabs for free. Damage dealer with DHA+Bastard Sword.
Bomber Alchemist: Ranged and area damage. Can apply debuffs for the Resentment Witch. Buffs party with mutagens and poisons and can do a little healing.
See this is what I want hopping for, parties design exploit their strengths to push them to a new level, I personally would swap the alchemist for another caster, maybe Carthage fear mage sorcerer to give very reliable debuffs and to give a charisma character in the party but other than that it seems like this would be grea
If you've got the feat space for it, Alchemical Gut on a familiar can up the Bomber's single target damage on nearly anything you can hit at least 35% of the time. (Double check my math, it's 2am and I'm half asleep)
Finally, an alchemist! I was looking for one! :D
Alas, my personal experience playing a bomber showed me that it comes online pretty late and that the short range of bombs is kinda problematic when real range is needed.
I would suggest going for mutagenist with bow or crossbow and use alchemical gut or bomb alembic to prepare splashless bombs at later levels if you need them. But keep in mind that at this point I am theorizing myself since I never played a mutagenist.
I'd sub out the barbarian for Rogue - fills the same "glass cannon" niche of insane DPR output, but carries more offensive flexibility and FAR more out-of-combat utility to ensure the party has the advantage in any given engagement. As a dex-based character, Rogue can also easily flex to ranged attacks.
Champion goes without saying, especially if we're playing monoclass - though I think Shield Ally Paladin is probably the combo. Technically, Champ also gets decent divine casting proficiency if they sneak in an archetype feat for scroll access. A rogue with the Gang Up feat can make positioning an absolute breeze - once team is in formation and the debuffs start flowing, even Level+3 bosses will be melting like butter.
Maestro Bard is another shoe-in - but there are several "optimal" builds within this class. A heavy melee striker with Warrior Muse would give the team crushing close-range potential, but Courageous Anthem archery is also an extremely effective combo, and a dex-based bard will have more attribute mods for defense and utility.
Cleric is a strong contender, but I'm actually going to say Druid would be more optimal. Clerics have better burst healing, but Druids have far better offensive magic magic and the team comp would otherwise be missing out on all the great Rage of Elements content. Champion/Rogue/Bard all have limited "secondary healer" capabilities themselves, so Druid only needs to pack one or two Heal spells and maybe Natural Medicine.
An animal companion would be another target to benefit from the Bard's buffs, and an extra meatwall for the Champion to position themselves alongside. Most importantly, it's an effective Grappler to support Champ and Rogue in the frontline.
Of course, all this goes out the window when Free Archetype is put on the table. There is no "optimal" Free Archetype party - only an endless sea of shenanigans.
Think the main reason he didn't grab the rogue is the frequency of precision damage immunity in some APs
That's not a problem I've ever really run into... its basically just oozes, yeah? Nasty buggers when they show up, but hardly common. Most elementals, undead, and constructs are still perfectly susceptible to the ol' eyeball stab.
Quite possible, I haven't had the chance to play yet, just seen quite a bit of frustration about precision damage immune enemies.
Oozes, undead you need ghost touch for, etc.
Martial damage, martial support, 2 casters with either primal + occult or arcane + divine traditions how you get there doesn’t matter to much as long it is divided as such.
There are many types of encounter and no one party will be good at them all. It's that simple. This party will struggle to deal much damage at range, making it weak against flying enemies or ranged enemies taking advantage of terrain. It also is overly reliant on the Barbarian's strikes to deal damage - if they ever crit-fail against a powerful control effect, the whole party will struggle. The whole party also has pretty bad reflex saves and some reliance on standing close to eachother, which will cause some real struggles against powerful AoE effects.
For my money, I wouldn't consider any party "optimal" without a terrain controller type Caster/Kineticist (using walls, concealment, difficult terrain effects, illusions, etc) AND a maneuver-focused Martial. Raw damage output is one thing, but wasting enemy actions is potentially even more important, and in practice these builds will still end up getting good damage (if not as sky-high as a two-handing Barbarian's).
I also think an optimally-played party will get far more value from a Martial with the Medic dedication than a Cleric. Clerics will often have below-average value on turns when they don't need to heal in exchange for being able to cover for emergencies, while Medic archetype takers will always have their full value of being a martial (minus 2 class feats) while providing powerful, action-efficient healing via Doctor's Visitation, in exchange for being worse off in emergencies. In an optimal setting, there should be fewer emergencies; therefore, Cleric is less valuable.
If I had to give a party of four, I would go:
Druid (Animal Order, Wolf Companion) - Supremely versatile controller/blaster with access to emergency Heals, and a companion to tank occasional hits, support the other frontliners with flanking and knock enemies Prone.
Rogue (Thief or Mastermind, w/ Medic Dedication) - Switch-hitting striker and first call for healing. Between the Wolf and Monk knocking enemies prone, potential Mist/Darkness spells from the Druid, and potential Invisibility spells from the Bard, they should have more than enough ways to catch enemies off-guard, and that leaves their action economy open for Doctor's Visitation.
Monk (Strength-based) - Durable frontliner and maneuver user, with the added benefit of being very hard to disrupt thanks to their insane action economy, mobility, and excellent saving throws.
Bard (Warrior) - Everyone already knows why bards are so good, and very few holes are left between Occult and Primal casting. Warrior muse helps the party reposition as necessary and gives them access to better armor to shore up their defenses.
This party would focus a lot on skirmishing (while keeping good damage thanks to Sneak Attack and Flurry of Blows being excellent 1-action damage sources) and making use of battlefield control effects to minimize enemy actions. I could imagine them struggling a little more in more close-quarters encounters, but both casters should have access to useful defensive spells.
I've tried out this concept. I came up with:
Shield magus, drifter gunslinger, enigma bard, and a cleric(don't remember the subclass)
There's a bunch of layers to this, but i'll highlight the most important:
A lot of early money would be used to give the cleric a lot of uses of the "share life" spell, which inflate the shield magus' HP to combine with their ac and shield block and makes it a super durable tank if the party needs it.
On the damage profile, the magus has the high damage numbers with a low number of hits. While the gunslinger has higher accuracy, fatal weapons and most of the time it attacks multiple times in a round. All of them have ranged alternatives, two of them have melee(flanking). The team can choose which kind of damage will be best for the situation and buff the damage dealers accordingly.
Bard and cleric have buffs, debuffs, and healing. Gunslinger can spam fakeout.
All of the main attributes have some character covering them, strength being the one that's iffy. So all ability checks will have some character who is REALLY good at doing them.
Most of them have good recall knowledge ability, the bard doubles down as a adicional source. That way they will almost always find the best strategy to kill their foes. If they don't, the DC is probably too high, run.
Edit: also, 3 of the 4 magic traditions are covered, which gives them access to almost all spells, so they can save a lot on consumables that will tackle niche situations.
4 Sniper Gunslingers with Occult Sorcerer Dedications for pick-me-up heals, and the ability to cast Heroism, Dimension Door, Invisibility, Warp Step, and probably a grab bag of other good utility spells too. Bonus points if they can get on a Primal archetype for Fleet Step, Longstrider, and Pass Without Trace. Also bonus points if you can fit in a Rogue archetype for 1d6 Sneak Attack. Someone has the Quiet Allies skill feat to make ambushes only 1 stealth roll.
Annihilate anything possible with secret ambushes, being shot by 4 gunslingers going for maximum critical damage with pre-buffs and stealth attacks. If they live, dimension door away and cast fleet step and start hoofing it. Then find them again and repeat the process later.
Is this the best party comp? No, this is terrible if you're not ambushing. But it sure sounds fun.
Me when I'm up against one (1) singular ooze.
Six single gate kineticists, one for each element. They can all have +4 Con and the party could still have at least one +3 in each stat. With that many kineticist class feats the party could spare a couple for caster architypes and they would gain wand/scroll access to most spells.
Sounds fun for a homebrew campaign. Making it everyone has to be one of the gates but gets free archetype because of the forced rules at the start.
That is until you have to fight a will'o wisp or a preremaster golem. Then the whole team becomes useless.
Piece of dick in them
Will'o Wisp is immune to all spells, and basically the same for pre-remaster Golems. That isn't a problem because most blast and infusions are not spells, and even if you have a DM that rules they are at least 1-2 of the elements are pretty good in melee with Weapon Infusion, and the weapons definitely should not be counted as spells.
Emphasis mine. They're not spells but they're treated as spells. So golems are immune to them.
4 leshy rogues of different types in a trenchcoat
I think the ideal group would be 4 sexy bards seducing everything and everyone they meet along the way...
I am not sure I would consider it the best but outside of magic immune enemies I think 4 Kineticist would be very powerful and past level 10 (aura shaping) just amazing in combat. They would be great from 1-9 but amazing later. I love theory crafting so here it goes.
Drifting Pollens
Winter Sleet
Thermal Nimbus
Ravel in Thorns
The combination of 4 Kineticist Auras just seem very powerful to me. I haven't had a chance to try it in practice. There are plenty of other combinations.
The group would most likely destroy group encounters easily and melee probably wouldn't even stand a chance at level 10+ with Winter Sleet + Raven in Thorns.
Since Kineticist are versatile and melee/range they should have the tools to take out a single target enemy with Flat Footed + Sickened they shouldn't be too bad. They wouldn't do the most damage, but they would have so much control. I find Sand Snatcher + Timber Sentinel very effective in these encounters.
IMO the cheapest strategy would just be Bard + Fighter x 3. Basically spamming knockdown + attack of opportunities. I have played a lot of Pathfinder 2e and knockdown + attack of opportunity is easily the best strategy in Adventure Paths since enemies are almost always start nearby. The only way to stop this strategy from being dominant would be building long range encounters or play specifically against the party.
On the bright side you don't need the best party. In my experience every party has had potential to play through Adventure Paths and with teamwork they become much easier.
For your first build, I think its biggest weakness is not having a spellcaster. Lack of daily resources means no ability to overcharge your power in the hardest of fights, and you're missing out on a lot of spell utility.
3 Fighters + 1 Bard is really not that powerful. By focusing all on exactly one strategy, you have a bunch of achilles heels. Ranged enemies, skirmishers, anything that inflicts Stunned or Confused, anything with notably high AC and/or resistance to physical damage... it's not that great. Even just swapping some of the Fighters for other melee martials would be better, if not still quite flawed.
My 1e War for the Crown game had a Combat Reflexes polearm fighter who was so good at her job, the entire game just got renamed to War on the Floor.
The disgusting thing was that she was ALSO a social powerhouse, with Aasimar giving her +3 charisma at chargen, then stacking her racial bonus, a campaign trait, Skill Focus, and an early magic item drop all into Diplomacy. I think she had a +20 modifier before level 5.
(Needless to say, when the Aasimar mentalist villain in Module 3 got his magic claws on her, the party shat bricks)
I was gonna say three fighters and a cleric or Life Oracle. No spell resistance to worry about!
A table of quadruplets with actual sibling telepathy.
With Free Archetype ("/" means dedications taken overall for build):
Maestro Bard/Medic ded/Swashbuckler ded/Talisman Dabler ded. Just ultimate support. With his most optimized combo: Inspire Heroics+Crit. Success talisman + Quicken Synesthesia + True Target - he can pretty much setup any boss to be deleted out of exsistance.
Fighter/Champion ded/Monk ded/Psychic Warp Step ded (Multitalented) + X depending of style. Either Reach fighter with Imp. Knockdown + Disruptive Stance or Double Slice Fighter (Monk dedication is for best self healing and huge effective HP) for maximum DPR.
Beastkin (perma Large lvl 13) Deer Animal Barbarian/Champion ded/Monk ded with shield or any ancestry Giant Instict Two Weapon Warrior/Champion/Sentinel. But also: Thief Rogue/Champion ded if adventure doesn't have a lot precision immune enemies (Rogue for example sucks ass in AV or BL) or Flurry Ranger/Champion ded will also be great co-frontliner with Fighter. Hell, second Fighter :D
Starlit Span Magus/Psychicded /Sniping Duo ded or If someone really wants to be a caster Elemental Sorcerer/Storm Druid with level 8 Crossblooded Evolution: Heal spell. Generally we want something with range capabilities and another huge burst or some really strong AOE spells.
I have very simillar party like that as GM (Maestro Bard from point 1. + Reach from point 2. + Double Slice Barbarian from point 3 + Starlit Span Magus from point 4) and Bosses +3 are freaking joke. Some +3 enemies die in 1st turn without even moving if initiative is in favour of party, usually 2nd turn is boss death anyway. Very very rarely they live to see 3rd turn. Average 2 turns boss killers.
Obviously any enemy below lvl +3 is even bigger joke :D
And becasue they have double Champion reactions + Heal bot Bard + super high HP and huge self-healing they are pretty much unkillable anyway.
I believe the best party is open hand fighter, thief rogue, warpriest and resentment witch. All of them can be pretty flexible.
I’d probably replace Resentment with Mosquito in your party, since Mosquito also gets Ongoing Misery.
The Primal list is a lot more versatile than Occult and, up until level 9 when the latter gets Synesthesia, there’s nothing unique that the Resentment Witch would get that makes them better at abusing Ongoing Misery than a Primal caster.
And while the level 9+ Resentment Witch finally ends up being strict better in single boss fights (while obviously being the better buffer the whole time), the Mosquito Witch’s excellent AoE and control for all of levels 1-20 makes it a superior consideration imo.
\merry Bardic Music stops.
Them's big words, coming from someone within Synesthesia range.
There is no universal "most optimal" party. There cannot be, inherently.
Optimization is task-specific. That's what optimization means.
You could have a most-optimizing party for a very specific task, like say, fighting an Ancient Green Dragon during a snowstorm, on the astral plane, or something.
As soon as the conditions, terrain, enemies, etc change that part is no longer the most optimized.
What you're really asking for is probably what the most versatile party is. IE: What can handle the biggest range of situations, terrain, enemies, etc.
For that, the traditional basic-4 classes together are still the best: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard.
Alright go into more details, go into the what kind of fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard and how they synergizes, I want to hear peoples ideas on how that they think they'd make the most optimal party
The most optimal party is a group that
individually
They have a way to heal someone. (potion)
They have a way to attack flying creature
They have more than one weapon and have all the type of damage ready and for precision-based character They have an alternative way to do damage when the creature is immune.
Have a way to escape being grabbed.
For spellcasters, you need to have a way to breathe when engulfed.
You need to be able to do damage on your own!
As group
You need someone who is able to heal between combat,
You need to have a way to remove condition.
You need someone who max their thievery. (Seriously, it doesn't matter that you are careful is nobody is capable of removing trap.
They focus on offensive but don't finish their turn in front in a lone foe.
My idea of an ideal party would be
Dragon rider Magus (shning buckler) at higher level he take the cleric dedication.
An investigator/magus who take level in psychics
A elemental sorcerer (the actual healer)
A debuffer Maestro Bard./storm druid.
5 monks or 5 fighters.
I think the ideal party make up really depends on the campaign, the group, the players, and the GM. Is it a combat oriented group and adventure? Are you going to be in a specific area/terrain? Are you playing an "evil" campaign? Is there going to be alot of access to items or not?
Do certain players in your group excel at certain classes or types of characters? Some people just work better with certain builds. And how does the group work together overall? Do you have a YOLO player or is everyone super cautious?
What is the GM like? Are they going to give you chances to shine as individuals or a group, or are they following an AP, or maybe they are adding some serious homebrew rules and/or campaign ideas.
I think part of the fun of the question is trying to come up with a party that could excel no matter the campaign you put them in, it's also just more of a fun thought experiment that's why it's the most optimal party not "the right party" or "the best party"
Depending on the level you're talking about... Giant Instinct with Sentinel as a dedication is just pure filth, btw.
Depends on everything
I'll have a go.
Slot 1 is easy. Fighter, shield, flick mace. Paladin dedication. Maybe later on drop shield for 2nd flick mace. I'd need to run the dpr numbers. I've played with flick mace fighters. They rock. Greater crushing tube ASAP. Means - 2-4 enemy ac on a crit.
Slot 2 is easy. Bard, maestro. Fortissimo crit is about plus 50% dpr that round. Solid chassis, great spells.
Slot 3 is trickier. I'm suggesting gunslinger. Terrible without support. But bard and fighter help there. Gives ranged option. Fake out is great for getting the fighter his crits. Can solo some fights vs slow enemies. Ranger dedication for quad range at level 8.
Slot 4. Druid is good. But I'd try war priest of Anubis. Solid front liner. At 8 gets a 6d6 focus blast that hits enemies only. Can increase to 6d10. Scales to 18d6, or even 18d10, by level 19. At level 9 get wall of stone. Great tanking spell. Can turn tpks into easy stomps.
Redeemer champion with 2 shields monk dedication and gorilla stance. With the right shield mods, he can grapple, shove, trip, disarm all while wielding two shields to block additional damage. Furthermore he can hit at a 1d8 without any free hands AND he can flurry with Stunning fist and terrain around him is difficult terrain. + he's a great out of combat healer.
Thief Rogue as a skill monkey and striker, make sure to give him smoke sticks or another reliable way to create his own concealment so he can maximize offguard. but shield puncher up there should already have you covered for the most part.
Maestro bard for the sweet buffing power and making it even more difficult to break out of the Paladin's grasp once he has you
Universalist staff nexus wizard for your blasting/casting needs. Though i havent tried it yet a kineticist might also fit in this role, but the main issue is getting the magic damage types needed to properly defeat monsters like golems and also picking up utility spells not available to the bard.
This team is mostly there to take advantage of how strong sturdy and impossible of a wall a champion with monk dedication is. Hard to kill with damage due to lay on hands, hard to kill with disabling due to his multitude of high saves
I always feel that optimal party is a tank, a healer, a dps and a second dps that also has crowd control/buff/debuff. That's not just in dnd but any game.
Personally I really wanted to try a party where everyone has smokesight or similar ability (ifrits, premaster aasimar, fire order druid, smoke worker hobo goblin etc) as they just smokescreen everyone and take their time massacring.
Naturally this one trick has weaknesses but I bet it would feel amazing once every few fights.
A striker, a caster, a healer, a face, and a skillmonkey/classic rogue. The caster can also be the healer. Doesn't really need to be a specific class, they just need to be complementary in playstyle. Adding a defender/tank makes the group even more fully balanced, although in PF2 you can tank and strike in a single class.
Looks like this party is weak against ranged, large groups, traps, and doesn't have a lot of damage variation to go against weaknesses and resistances.
My PF2e experience is very light. I've only played <5th level and only a couple adventures over the past year. That being said, from my experience, this is what I'd think an optimal party would look like;
Fighter - you just simply can't beat the Fighter's accelerated proficiency in attacks.
Bard - buffs, buffs, and more buffs
Wizard - the amount of versatility a Wizard carries in their spellbook is unrivaled. The party will encounter nary a problem the Wizard can't handle.
Cleric / Champion - Unsure on this slot. Cleric's healing is just stupendous, but may not be needed if the Bard specs into healing as well as buffs. Champ does an excellent job protecting his fellow party members, so could makeup for healing, but on the damage prevention end, as well as provide an extra body to soak damage on the frontline alongside the Fighter.