Talk:History of Hinduism

Starting date

Should it be mentioned that Hinduism might be as early as 2300 BC? https://www.history.com/topics/religion/hinduism Temp0000002 (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

No, of course not; please read what this Wiki-article says about Hindu synthesis. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 02:42, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Clarification regarding the following lines in Prehistory section

Hinduism may have roots in Mesolithic prehistoric religion, such as evidenced in the rock paintings of Bhimbetka rock shelters, which are about 10,000 years old (c. 8,000 BCE), as well as neolithic times.

References

Notes

Subnotes

In which of these sources can I actually find that the roots of Hinduism may date back to 10000 years. Including such a statement doesn't seem correct given that it can be misinterpreted in many ways, and is more of a conjecture than a theory or fact. Sk.griffinix (talk) 00:04, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Good point, but sourced and explained by Doniger. See also first alinea of the first section. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:53, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Excessive pictures.

hello @Joshua Jonathan. I think a single photo, any of the three is more than enough to illustrate a point of the section, but three are just unnecessary and gratuitous. Also in the Gupta and Pallava Empires section could also use less gallery. 182.183.53.207 (talk) 12:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad you also mention other sections; trimming only the Muslim-rule section, with NPOV as arguments sounds quite biased. That was the reason I reverted. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 13:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Well some pictures are of high relevance for the article. But, for starters in Indus Valley Civilization section, the pic about "Swastika Seals" could be removed. An in the section I mentioned above in my reply, "The Descent of the Ganges" and "Trivikrama panel" could be removed. And In the Expansion in South-East Asia I think two pics appended to the side could be enough. Also in the Vijayanagara Empire "Market place at Hampi" and "An open mantapa" do not seem that useful for the article. Note I'am not necessarily advocating for all the pics to be removed but few could moved elsewhere maybe in related separate article as this whole article looks eccentric because of the crowded gallery.

So what do you think?? 182.183.53.207 (talk) 13:41, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan?? 182.183.53.207 (talk) 06:13, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Fine with me, I guess; I'm not a big fa of galleries, actually. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Alright I have removed some of the pics, can you check the placement and dimensions of the remaining images, as I am not proficient in managing these aspects? Also I thought of making the photo of Ranganathaswamy Temple bit small as it makes the site seem like a blog but don't know how to do it. 182.183.53.207 (talk) 11:16, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

Concerns related to the sourcing regarding religious tolerance under the Mughals

@Eucalyptusmint, I have observed your suggested sentence on the (OR) board (Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard#Source misrepresentation and cherrypicking in History of Hinduism). I already removed that particular source [Amy Chua (2007)] after the complaint diff. Would you agree that the present sources in Medieval and early modern periods to be acceptable? StarkReport (talk) 08:08, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Sure, can take a look, though it might take a bit. But I'm going to start with the paragraph/sentence that was brought up at ORN. I see the sentence in question, The Mughals were known for their religious tolerance, and they actively patronized the arts and literature, was left intact but the original source Amy Chua (2007) was replaced with this source Kanwal (2020). I think @TryKid had brought up a valid concern at ORN: is a book published by Doubleday and written by a legal scholar (not historian) considered WP:HISTRS?

However, the journal source that it was replaced with seems even more questionable to me because this journal article is the authors' perspective based on research they have gathered, who also happen to be affiliated with the university through which the journal is published. So can this source be considered a better source over the original book source? I'm leaning towards no, and open to hearing everyone's thoughts.

Additionally, based on the info from the two sources above and from what @Kaalakaa and @JMWt seem to be saying, the original sentence "The Mughals were known for their religious tolerance..." is still problematic because it seems to be written in a way that's stating an opinion as fact. The statement should have appropriate attribution from WP:RS, if fully kept and even more so because later on in the same paragraph it says "...there were instances of religious conflicts between the Mughals and the Rajput over control of territories. Aurangzeb in particular was criticized for his policies of religious intolerance towards non-Muslims and destruction of temples." So, again, this seems contradictory of the generalized sentence that is in question. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 16:52, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

I see. Well, the following source of Whitney Howarth (BA in History/Social Studies[1]), states that "the Mughal rulers were generally tolerant of all of the religions of the region. This tolerance helped ensure peace. In turn, peace in the region allowed business and trade to thrive" and later on in the Internal problems emerge section "The vast Mughal state had long had leaders who were tolerant and peaceful. Then came Emperor Aurangzeb". Here is the source: [file:///C:/Users/hp123/Downloads/WHP-1750%201-3-5%20Read%20-%20Mughal%20Empire%20-%20940L.pdf].

Alternatively, if perhaps by historian Rajeev Kinra which states at the beggining "comparatively speaking, arguably the most tolerant and inclusive state in the entire early modern world". Although I haven't completely absorbed this source[2] of another historian Muzaffar Alam, but to me it appears that the paper argues that the Mughals, despite being Muslims, adopted a pragmatic and tolerant approach for practical reasons for the most part.

Maybe a work by the historian Mubarak Ali could be useful.

"So, again, this seems contradictory of the generalized sentence," Hmm regarding this, I think one way we can solve the problem is to slightly reword the first sentence "The Mughals were generally known for their religious tolerance, " as the word "generally" acknowledges both the general trend of religious tolerance and the instances of conflicts, providing a more nuanced view of the Mughal era. It suggests that while tolerance was a characteristic feature, exceptions and conflicts did exist.

For information like "patronized the arts and literature" and "Under the Mughals, India experienced a period of relative stability and prosperity" I don't think this should be deemed contentious as they are indeed noted by many historians and scholars. StarkReport (talk) 20:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport Saw this discussion and suggestion "The Mughals were generally known for their religious tolerance," - just wondering - do we want to include "generally" because most of the sources are saying Mughals were generally tolerant? Or because the trend of the Mughal era was generally towards religious tolerance? or maybe both? Because as you mentioned "exceptions and conflicts did exist". Sorry, not an early modern era history person, but trying to be as positive I can while contributing on wiki, and this sentence really helped me see how to write positively. So, thanks. Asteramellus (talk) 14:55, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Asteramellus, I think it is both. The Mughals are commonly acknowledged for their relative tolerance considering the era, albeit far from perfect. StarkReport (talk) 16:16, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint: If any mention is to be made of the "tolerance" of the Mughal Empire, I think it is imperative to explain that this "tolerance" did not occur at the time of the implementation of orthodox Islamic law, but began primarily during the reign of Akbar (the grandson of the founder Babur). Akbar created a new syncretic religion called "Din-i Ilahi" in which he himself functioned as the supreme divinely inspired authority in both secular and religious matters.

According to his minister and court historian Abu l-Fazl Allami, Akbar wanted to devise a suitable syncretic form of religion for his empire, which was composed of various religious and ethnic groups. He initiated religious discussions with Christians, Jains, Parsis, Hindus, Buddhists, and representatives of non-Shi’ite Islamic groups, and in 1582 he proclaimed a “religion of God” (Persian din-i ilahi), in which he himself functioned as supreme, divinely-inspired authority in secular and religious matters. New cult forms, rites, and symbols, along with a new chronology, were introduced.

There is dispute over how many followers this new religion really had, and how they were recruited. Resistance from conservative religious scholars and the elite was fierce. Nevertheless, the innovations remained in force even after Akbar’s death in 1606.

And this other source seems to be saying about the same thing as Yale University law professor Amy Chua, whose statement we discussed earlier at WP:ORN.

Pages 38–39
Third, citing Sharia provisions for treatment of dhimmis, the ulema expected to exert direct influence over official policies toward the non-Muslim majority. Faced with the plasticity and resilience of Hinduism, the Mughal ulema rightly feared blurring of boundaries and loss of the community's identity and strength. Therefore, doctrinal purity demanded harsh treatment for idolaters in all spheres of life.

Akbar's conflicts on this question with the Muslim religious establishment began early. In 1563 the young emperor abolished the practice of collecting a heavy tax from Hindu pilgrims when they gathered on festival occasions. In contravention of the Sharia, the emperor also granted non-Muslims permission to repair aging temples or to build new structures. In another controversial measure orders were issued that former Hindus who had been forcibly converted to Islam should be allowed to apostasize and escape the death penalty of the Sharia. He prohibited enslavement of war captives and the common practice of involuntary conversion of non-Muslim slaves.

The most sweeping policy change, which had a direct impact on nearly all Hindus, occurred in 1579. Akbar abolished the graduated property tax levied exclusively on non-Muslims, the jiziya. This was an annual tax imposed on the property of individual non-Muslims, who were legally classified as dhimmis or client groups tolerated and protected by Muslim rulers. State officers, usually ulema, collected sums based upon the wealth or possessions of the individual rate-payer. Only the indigent were exempted from payment. The regressive scale placed a real burden on the poorest taxpayers who paid an annual sum equivalent to a month's wages for an unskilled urban laborer.

The symbolic value of this measure was very great. The jiziya defined the status and public obligations of non-Muslims protected by the Islamic community. Payment entitled dhimmis to a peaceful existence under state protection and exempted them from military service. Terminating this tax implied that the unequal compact between Muslims and non-Muslims was also abolished — hence Akbar's action was bitterly resented by orthodox Muslims.

This tolerance policy of the empire was later overturned by Aurangzeb (one of Akbar's great grandsons). Aurangzeb was:

Ibid, p. 153
Aurangzeb obviously was a man of extreme piety, who punctiliously observed the public rituals of Islam. He did not drink wine or take opium. Engaged in his own spiritual quest, Aurangzeb held long discussions with members of the ulema or shaikhs from the orthodox Naqshbandi order. He avidly read the Koran, treatises on the law, and the works of Al-Ghazzali and other prominent Islamic scholars. But Aurangzeb's piety, as suggested by Manucci, did not interfere with his worldly ambition or continual maneuvering in the high politics of empire.

Aurangzeb rebelled against his own father, Shah Jahan (ibid, pp. 159–160), and then had his own full brothers Dara and Murad killed. As for Dara:

Ibid, p. 161
When Dara Shukoh arrived at Delhi as a prisoner, Aurangzeb first had him paraded in public humiliation through the streets of the city. His appearance and his past generosity aroused much public sympathy. That evening in council Aurangzeb, his sister Raushan Ara, and his advisers, decided on a death sentence. The official ulema condemned Dara to death on grounds of apostasy from Islam and idolatry. On the night of August 30, 1659, two slaves killed Dara and his youngest son Sipihr Shukoh.

As for Murad, Aurangzeb initially allied with him, promising territorial sharing. But tensions soon grew between the two. And when Murad met Aurangzeb at his camp for dinner, Aurangzeb arrested him (ibid, p. 160), and some time later killed him (ibid, p. 162). — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 04:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint: An "authors' perspective based on research they have gathered" is called a tertiary source, which in itself is perfectly fine.

@Kaalakaa: aren't there sources which directly state that " The Mughals were known for their religious tolerance"? See Google Books. @Kautilya3: thoughts? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:46, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the comment about tertiary source, I can agree to that. But I'm confused, are you referring to the book or the journal article? Because I was referring to the journal article and thought that journal articles are generally not considered tertiary sources since they include interpretations/analysis of info (which this article does). I suppose regardless of what kind of source it is, I was more so questioning the reliability of the source- the journal/article. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 15:58, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan:

"authors' perspective based on research they have gathered" is called a tertiary source, which in itself is perfectly fine.

Yes, they can also be considered secondary sources under certain conditions, but whether those sources meet our WP:SOURCE policy (which includes WP:IIS) is another matter. And context is important here. According to this Cambridge University Press publication, Akbar abolished several policies of his predecessors that don't seem very tolerant.

Akbar's conflicts on this question with the Muslim religious establishment began early. In 1563 the young emperor abolished the practice of collecting a heavy tax from Hindu pilgrims when they gathered on festival occasions. In contravention of the Sharia, the emperor also granted non-Muslims permission to repair aging temples or to build new structures. In another controversial measure orders were issued that former Hindus who had been forcibly converted to Islam should be allowed to apostasize and escape the death penalty of the Sharia. He prohibited enslavement of war captives and the common practice of involuntary conversion of non-Muslim slaves.

The most sweeping policy change, which had a direct impact on nearly all Hindus, occurred in 1579. Akbar abolished the graduated property tax levied exclusively on non-Muslims, the jiziya. This was an annual tax imposed on the property of individual non-Muslims, who were legally classified as dhimmis or client groups tolerated and protected by Muslim rulers. State officers, usually ulema, collected sums based upon the wealth or possessions of the individual rate-payer. Only the indigent were exempted from payment. The regressive scale placed a real burden on the poorest taxpayers who paid an annual sum equivalent to a month's wages for an unskilled urban laborer

The symbolic value of this measure was very great. The jiziya defined the status and public obligations of non-Muslims protected by the Islamic community. Payment entitled dhimmis to a peaceful existence under state protection and exempted them from military service. Terminating this tax implied that the unequal compact between Muslims and non-Muslims was also abolished — hence Akbar's action was bitterly resented by orthodox Muslims.

Our WP:OR and WP:TIERS say that books published by university presses are among the most reliable sources. Now, these predecessors of Akbar, were they also Mughal rulers or not? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 11:56, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint @Joshua Jonathan, Regarding Kaalakaa's take on rulers other than Akbar, I think it is worth stating that even other Mughals, like Babur, Humayun, Shah Jahan and Bahadur Shah Zafar and Jahangir were also noted for their varying levels of religious tolerance.

Babur became more tolerant as he grew older, facilitating the peaceful coexistence of different religions within his empire and court. Bahadur Shah Zafar's philosophy was implemented by his court, embodying a multicultural composite Hindu-Islamic Mughal culture. He celebrated many Hindu festivals like Rakhi, Holi, Diwali, etc., in the court. Jahangir issued bans on cow slaughter and animal slaughter on certain days of the week, continuing his father's policy. Jahangir also issued many edicts admonishing his nobles not to convert the religion of anybody by force. I'm sure there are more and better sources than those.

Its just that Akbar took more steps further than others, admirably so.

As for another statement from Kaalakaa, "Akbar abolished several policies of his predecessors that don't seem very tolerant". When we talk about tolerance, we don't mean they were openly all-embracing liberals as we know nowadays. But the Mughals, for their times - times when intolerance and bigotry were the bread and butter - are generally held to be religiously tolerant. I could elucidate more on this matter, but let's just not turn this into a WP:Forum. StarkReport (talk) 16:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

StarkReport and @Asteramellus I agree, think that the suggestion of including generally would be acceptable and would help create less of a contradiction with the information mentioned at the end of the section, so I'm okay with that. In trying to resolve Kaalakaa's concerns, what if it says: The Mughals were generally known for their religious tolerance which was at its peak during the reign of Akbar? Just a suggestion. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 17:05, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint, Yeah, I think that could work too. However, regarding the sources of few historians I gave you above, are they all alright? StarkReport (talk) 17:11, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport: Can you quote which parts of the following two sources you cited that support your statement? I am not sure about the reliability of all of them or whether they are worth using instead of the two sources I cited above, though. This should probably also be brought to WP:RSN. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 18:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport: So where are the quotes? I've been waiting for about six days. Also, did you even bother to read the quote I provided in my comment before replying? What I meant by "not very tolerant" with regard to the policies of Akbar's predecessors was not that they were "moderately tolerant," but that they were the opposite of tolerant, i.e., intolerant. Here I quote it again:

Akbar's conflicts on this question with the Muslim religious establishment began early. In 1563 the young emperor abolished the practice of collecting a heavy tax from Hindu pilgrims when they gathered on festival occasions. In contravention of the Sharia, the emperor also granted non-Muslims permission to repair aging temples or to build new structures. In another controversial measure orders were issued that former Hindus who had been forcibly converted to Islam should be allowed to apostasize and escape the death penalty of the Sharia. He prohibited enslavement of war captives and the common practice of involuntary conversion of non-Muslim slaves.

The most sweeping policy change, which had a direct impact on nearly all Hindus, occurred in 1579. Akbar abolished the graduated property tax levied exclusively on non-Muslims, the jiziya. This was an annual tax imposed on the property of individual non-Muslims, who were legally classified as dhimmis or client groups tolerated and protected by Muslim rulers. State officers, usually ulema, collected sums based upon the wealth or possessions of the individual rate-payer. Only the indigent were exempted from payment. The regressive scale placed a real burden on the poorest taxpayers who paid an annual sum equivalent to a month's wages for an unskilled urban laborer

The symbolic value of this measure was very great. The jiziya defined the status and public obligations of non-Muslims protected by the Islamic community. Payment entitled dhimmis to a peaceful existence under state protection and exempted them from military service. Terminating this tax implied that the unequal compact between Muslims and non-Muslims was also abolished — hence Akbar's action was bitterly resented by orthodox Muslims.

— Kaalakaa ^(talk) 06:17, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kaalakaa, If you are referring to the aforementioned sources concerning other Mughals, then the sole unclickable source among them is that of William Dalrymple. So here it is clickable this time: [3] on page 90. Also, I have no idea why you are asking about those sources, as I haven't advocated for putting them in the article either in terms of sources or content related to other Mughals. I was just making a point. Also, note that I stated, "I'm sure there are more and better sources than those."

If you are asking for the source regarding the particular line in the article, it already exists in the article which @Joshua Jonathan okayed. I have also provided sources from four historians, namely: Whitney Howarth, Rajeev Kinra, Muzaffar Alam and Mubarak Ali to support the particular line in the article, in my second reply. @Joshua Jonathan also suggested one in respone to your demands. As for the wording, both Eucalyptusmint and Asteramellus are fine with it.

If you still insist on WP:NOTGETTINGIT, causing drain on time for other editors regarding a single line, then I'm afraid I can't help you. No one is obligated to satisfy you. StarkReport (talk) 11:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@StarkReport: You cited this source to support your statement, didn't you? Which part of it confirms what you are saying? Quote it. You know how to do that, don't you?

And how come some obscure, non-independent POV sources like Rajeev Kinra, Muzaffar Alam and Mubarak Ali are better than this?

Also, you seem to have not addressed your misrepresentation of my comment above. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 12:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hmmm seems I may have been to quick to copy/paste sources that I added a non-English source. Nonetheless, if you still want info about Babar then here you go: [4]

deductive method of research focuses on the policy of religious tolerance of great Mughal emperors that great Mughal emperors from Babur to Aurangzeb showed great religious tolerance under their rule

And I'm sure its fine since according to you: "WP:TIERS say that books published by university presses are among the most reliable sources".

Also its odd to claim the sources of Rajeev Kinra, Muzaffar Alam, and Mubarak Ali as obscure, non-independent, etc., while giving an actual obscure source, that looks to me an Israeli author. StarkReport (talk) 14:22, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't you misrepresent my comment. What I asked was this French source , not that obscure Pakistani POV source. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 15:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not really very interested in the minute detail of debate on this page, but it seems like the tolerance of the Moghals may well be something which has exercised academics and which may be part of a page on Wikipedia. It seems quite a long way from a History of Hinduism page and a single line with dubious and contested sourcing based on throw-away lines in references doesn't mean it should be repeated here. Can I suggest that rather than trying to insert or reinsert the phrase here that efforts on this could be better directed elsewhere such as Religious policy of the Mughals after Akbar or possibly a wikilink could be added to this or some other relevant and expanded page where the complexities of the topic can be properly dealt with? Please don't ping me again on this. JMWt (talk) 16:49, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

• Responding to ping. The Mughals were more liberal/tolerant compared to the Turko-Afghans that preceded them, but perhaps not in absolute terms. For example, throughout the Turko-Afghan period, there seems to have been a ban on constructing new temples as well as repairing old temples. (Hans T. Bakker) This was probably the case for large temples worthy of long-distance pilgrimage, though neighbourhood temples were probably constructed through patronage from local nobles/traders. This policy was probably continued under Babur and Humayun. During Akbar's time, on the other hand, we have evidence of Man Singh having constructed the Kashi Vishweshara temple. I haven't checked, but perhaps Krishna Janmasthan temple in Mathura was also constructed during Akbar's rule. So this was a significant change in policy, which continued during Jahangir and Shahjahan's time. Both of these temples were demolished under Aurangzeb's rule, as well as the Somnath temple and several temples in Ayodhya including the one at the supposed Ramjanmabhumi spot. So, Aurangzeb has to be distinguished from "Mughals" in general.

More importantly, there appears to have been a ban on the use of public spaces for Hindu festivities throughout the Muslim rule, including Mughal rule. This became known only after the British took over, and allowed such usage. This gave rise to HIndu-Muslim riots, which continue till this day. Even liberals think Hindus do not have a right to pass through Muslim neighbourhoods chanting Hindu slogans. These tensions got exported to Britain as well, and got witnessed in Leicester in 2022. So, take that "tolerance" thing with a large dose of salt. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Kautilya3, thanks for the comment. Regarding "So, Aurangzeb has to be distinguished from "Mughals" in general", I believe we have indeed addressed this by explicitly stating in the same paragraph: "Aurangzeb in particular, was criticized for his policies of religious intolerance towards non-Muslims and destruction of temples." StarkReport (talk) 12:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

"was criticized" is a needless softening of facts. He is in fact not criticised by most historians; he is rather defended through various excuses.

Most of the Muslim rule sections read more like "history of Islam" rather than "history of HInduism". Need a lot of reworking. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Concerns regarding @StarkReport's rewrite

On September 20, 2023, @StarkReport rewrote almost the entire "Muslim rule" section [5]. In this rewrite of his, besides including his misrepresentation of a source (confirmed to be the case by other editors as well [6]), a number of sources from the previous version still seem to be used, one of which is this . The source says that historian Will Durant wrote:

The Mohammedan conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. The Islamic historians and scholars have recorded with great glee and pride the slaughters of Hindus, forced conversions, abduction of Hindu women and children to slave markets and the destruction of temples carried out by the warriors of Islam during 800 AD to 1700 AD. Millions of Hindus were converted to Islam by sword during this period.

The statement in this WP article of ours before @StarkReport's rewrite seems to be more or less in line with that [7]:

Will Durant calls the Muslim conquest of India "probably the bloodiest story in history".

The source used here, however, is Will Durant's own book.
But in @StarkReport's version, he rewrote it as follows [8]:

Will Durant characterizes the Muslim conquest of India as a particularly tumultuous chapter in history. He suggests that it was marked by significant violence and upheaval, which he attributes in part to factors such as internal divisions, the influence of religions like Buddhism and Jainism.

This rewritten version by StarkReport, besides seeming to be not quite in line with the content of the source, also appears to be WP:CENSORSHIP. I also can't find in the source a passage that says anything similar to the text I've bolded above. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 14:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree that it was a bad rewrite. But I don't think Will Durant should be cited at all, which is badly out of date, essentially colonial era scholarship.It is really pop history and has no validity whatsoever. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:03, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, I agree.

As for my revision months ago, the section that was supposed to provide a broad overview of "Muslim rule" was written in an excessively critical way, leading to problematic NPOV issues that needed to be addressed. Consequently, I had to slightly expand it to include more comprehensive information, ensuring better WP:Balance. StarkReport (talk) 15:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be misunderstanding our policies. Where does it say in WP:NPOV and WP:BALANCE that we should not write critically about the subject if the sources say so? Are you aware of WP:YESBIAS? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 16:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kaalakaa, Kindly read

"An article should not give undue weight to minor aspects of its subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight proportional to its treatment in the body of reliable, published material on the subject. For example, a description of isolated events, quotes, criticisms, or news reports related to one subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic."

Also read

"A neutral point of view should be achieved by balancing the bias in sources based on the weight of the opinion in reliable sources and not by excluding sources that do not conform to the editor's point of view. This does not mean any biased source must be used; it may well serve an article better to exclude the material altogether."

StarkReport (talk) 17:48, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Can't you tell the difference between critical and criticism? An example of a biased source is your obscure Pakistani POV sources talking about the Mughal Empire. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 18:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

No more biased than Will Durant. StarkReport (talk) 18:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

So the reason you misrepresented Durant's saying was because you think he is biased? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 18:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: Will Durant matter aside, this behavior of @StarkReport misrepresenting the sources to push his POV seems chronic. This raises the question of whether his other contributions are actually in line with what the sources say, or again, simply his misrepresentation. Another editor also pointed out his misrepresentation of sources in another article previously [9]. I also filed an ANI report before [10], but unfortunately it was auto-archived before it received a response from the admins. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 15:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kaalakaa, In actuality your edits have been questioned by others regarding neutrality and WP:WEIGHT issues including @Iskandar323,[11] and here[12] and by @DeCausa,[13] and @Chxeese,[ 1 ], as well as by @Neutralhappy on ANI board [14]

You persistently cherry-pick sources with the same bias to forcefully insert critique where it is not WP:Relevant, disregarding all others, and then WP:BLUDGEON the process to achieve it. StarkReport (talk) 17:23, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

And what does that resolved issue have to do with your case? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 17:36, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kaalakaa, "I also filed an ANI report before [10], but unfortunately it was auto-archived before it received a response from the admins" And what does that resolved issue have to do with your case? StarkReport (talk) 17:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

That was not resolved but automatically archived because it had been inactive for some time. It can still be reopened and clearly has something to do with this case of your chronically misrepresenting sources, which has been pointed out not only by me but also by a number of other editors. — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 17:53, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Simple, your accusations against me claims misrepresenting sources, while my objection against you pertains to your complete lack of neutrality and cherry-picking sources which has been pointed out not only by me but also by a number of other editors.

Now for the last time stop the WP:ICANTHEARYOU and refrain from time wastage. StarkReport (talk) 17:59, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Then why don't you file a report already? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 18:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I see the problem. StarkReport, you cannot remove well-soured content and replace it with something else, without discussing it on the talk page and obtaining WP:CONSENSUS. If it is especially "negative", but other positive material exists, you can add the latter, and then start a discussion about how much WP:WEIGHT to give each. Otherwise, you just engaging in WP:CENSORSHIP, which Wikipedia does not support. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:16, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I also see that you have added content regarding the Mughal Empire, which wasn't here earlier. There is a separate section on the Mughal Empire down the line. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, Allow me to clarify: before I edited the section, there were mentions of Mughal rulers such as Akbar and Aurangzeb. I simply expanded it slightly for comprehensiveness while not making it too verbose. "There is a separate section on the Mughal Empire down the line", hmm. In retrospect, I believe we could relocate the paragraph there. StarkReport (talk) 17:44, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

References

• Folks, this talk page is not meant for discussing editor conduct. You can do so on one of your talk pages, and, if issues persist, you can take it to administrator notice boards. This talk page is only meant for discussing the content of the main page.

Taking this discussion forward, I suggest that the "Muslim Rule" subsection be retitled as "Muslim Sultantes" (which would include Delhi Sultanate as well as the Deccan Sultanates). Their treatment of Hindus as well as Hinduism would need to be covered. We cannot go overboard in discussing slavery unless we have evidence that Hindus were randomly rounded up and enslaved (which I doubt). Taking captives during a war or conflict is a different phenomenon. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Kautilya3, If we were to expand the article further to include information about those aforementioned Sultanates, I fear we might unintentionally stray too far into WP:COATRACK territory. I believe that including a link to the Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent article, along with appropriate Wikilinks to the Sultanates, effectively fulfills the intended purpose.

I am considering combining the section on Muslim rule with the Mughal period section. Alternatively, I suggest that the paragraph "In the 16th century, the Mughal Empire was established-------" could be moved to its pertinent Mughal section. Furthermore, I recommend omitting the third paragraph, which scrutinizes an era that seems more pertinent to articles such as Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent as the paragraph feels a bit WP:Undue here.

@Joshua Jonathan, @Eucalyptusmint, @Asteramellus, what do you think of this proposal, or do you think it is best to leave the article as it is?" StarkReport (talk) 00:40, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Muslim conquests are entirely irrelevant to this article, and the main article link to that page should be removed. This page is on the History of Hinduism, and how Hinduism was affected by the Muslim rule is of considerable interest. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 03:24, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The Muslim conquests brought Islam to India, didn't they? So it seems to me that this is relevant. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but "conquests" are military history not religious history. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree, that there is a distinction between information about military history and religious history. But there also seems to be some overlap since military history can shape religious history, which is what the information under the Muslim rule section seems to be about (how Hinduism was affected by the Muslim rule). My knowledge of either type of history is not as vast as other editors here, but I did take a look at the Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent page and the information on that page is primarily about military history and there isn't much mention about the impact of Muslim conquests on religion in India. For that reason, I disagree with StarkReport and think that information about Muslim Sultantes and Hinduism, if included, would actually be undue on that page, not this. As far as the second point about combining the info or leaving it as it is, I will take a closer look and get back to give my thoughts. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 22:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Sources required

Unsourced

The statement "The Mughals were generally known for their religious tolerance" is still unsourced. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 07:23, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Joshua Jonathan I thought we already included the source: Kanwal, Fariha. "Mughal Rulers' (1526-1707) Religious Tolerance Policy and its Impacts on the Society of Sub-Continent". ANNALS OF SOCIAL SCIENCES AND PERSPECTIVE. Retrieved February 25, 2024.. And when I discussed it suitability with Eucalyptusmint, you stated that "An "authors' perspective based on research they have gathered" is called a tertiary source, which in itself is perfectly fine.". Please let me know if I made a mistake.

I have added the additional sources of historian Rajeev Kinra that states in the beginning:

"The concept of ṣulḥ-i kull is well known as a core feature of the mughal empire’s state ideology, one that made it, comparatively speaking, arguably the most tolerant and inclusive state in the entire early modern world."

as well as of historian Richard M. Eaton who states that

"But for the most part, the Mughals were scrupulously secular in outlook. They focused on stability, loyalty, and revenue, not on religious change among their subjects."

as well as of the historian Mubarak Ali. Can you check them so we can remove the tag. I may have done WP:OVERCITE. StarkReport (talk) 12:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for adding those sources. I have the impression, though, that Fariha Kanwal is not a suitable source. The author is unknown, the journal is recently established, and the article itself may be apologetic:

there is a lot of religious intolerance in the world which causes many chaos and conflicts, especially the image of Islam became negative due to some terrorist activities. But Islam is the greatest revolution in the world which gives rights to everyone to live their life according to their beliefs. In the sub-continent, after the war of independence of 1857, the Hindus and Sikhs were creating great chaos for the Muslims. They made Muslim’s life worst even the Muslims could not live according to their teaching of Islam. So, religious tolerance is compulsory for everyone to live in peace even they are Muslims or not.

Sources by established authors would be preferable, I think, but I'll scroll through the article, and take a look at the other sources. Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 12:17, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you Joshua Jonathan that I don't think the Fariha Kanwal article is a reliable source. Which is why I had asked for clarification to your initial comment above with the following: "Regarding the comment about tertiary source, I can agree to that. But I'm confused, are you referring to the book or the journal article? Because I was referring to the journal article and thought that journal articles are generally not considered tertiary sources since they include interpretations/analysis of info (which this article does). I suppose regardless of what kind of source it is, I was more so questioning the reliability of the source- the journal/article."

Had a chance to look at the source again and this journal doesn't have an impact factor nor does it seem to be indexed in various journal databases. Moreover, the Kanwal journal article was used to replace this original [15] source which was questioned by another editor. Also took a re-look and I see that the publisher Doubleday is part of Penguin Random House, which meets WP:RS criteria. And regarding the other sources that were added, Eaton and Kinra, they are point of view claims that would require appropriate attribution. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 21:03, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint and @Joshua Jonathan: I agree with both of you regarding Fariha Kanwal's unreliability. Also, this Eaton source, which comes from the Scroll.in website, looks very dubious to me. If you read the web article, it says:

This interview was conducted through a series of email exchanges.

Firstly, it was clearly not peer-reviewed. Secondly, there's no telling whether this obscure website actually interviewed him or truthfully reported what he said. Also, if we really need to include the history of Mughal rule in this article, I think we should steer away from using Pakistani and Indian sources on it, especially those that have elements of apologia or promotion, as well as sources that appear to be religiously driven, because our WP:SOURCE policy requires us to use independent sources, i.e:

An independent source is a source that has no vested interest in a given Wikipedia topic and therefore is commonly expected to cover the topic from a disinterested perspective. Independent sources have editorial independence (advertisers do not dictate content) and no conflicts of interest (there is no potential for personal, financial, or political gain to be made from the existence of the publication).

— Kaalakaa ^(talk) 22:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eucalyptusmint, Earlier, Joshua also suggested another source for consideration, [16] It states that:

"The Mughals were known for their religious tolerance and incorporated many elements of Hindi architecture into their buildings and structure."

StarkReport (talk) 01:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan, did you really suggest that particular source? — Kaalakaa ^(talk) 03:30, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of. Could both of you please specify sources you're referring to? Author, title, not just a bare link. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:07, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Ahh @Joshua Jonathan, Earlier you stated to Kaakakaa in the "Concerns related to the sourcing-------" section that: @Kaalakaa: aren't there sources which directly state that " The Mughals were known for their religious tolerance"? See Google Books." And that led to the source of Khalid Bashir's History of the Architecture of Kashmir.

Nonetheless, there is one more source: Giordan, Giuseppe (July 15, 2019). "Annual Review of the Sociology of Religion. Volume 10 (2019)". Verlag Ferdinand Schöningh. p. 278. Retrieved March 10, 2024.

that states:

"Finally, Muslim rulers invaded northern India in the 13th Century, thus, bringing Islamic rule to India and a series of violent conflicts between Muslims and Hindus. Mughals who succeeded the Delhi Sultans were better known for their religious tolerance, although their rule was also not completely free from controversies."

StarkReport (talk) 06:36, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Nevertheless, a proper history book, with more than just one line, would be best. Who is the author of the journal-article above, and what is the title of the article? Regards, Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
Gotcha: Arpitra Mitra (2019), Interreligious Education in a Post-Secular World: The Relevance of the Radhakrishnan Commission's Recommendations in the Indian Context. Two cites, one by Mitra herself. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:48, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

References

Source-check

The Mughals were generally known for their religious tolerance,

References

• Kinra, Rajeev (April 1, 2020). "Revisiting the History and Historiography of Mughal Pluralism". ReOrient. Retrieved March 2, 2024. - 16 citations, that's good;
• Ali, Mubarak (September 2012). "MUGHALS AND THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENTS". Journal of the Pakistan Historical Society. Retrieved March 2, 2024. - one citation, but the journal seems to be an established journal (60 years);
• Ashraf, Ajaz (20 November 2015). "'We will never know the number of temples desecrated through India's history': Richard Eaton". Scroll.in. Archived from the original on 26 May 2022. Retrieved 2022-05-17. - already commented on above;
• Kanwal, Fariha (2020). "Mughal Rulers' (1526-1707) Religious Tolerance Policy and its Impacts on the Society of Sub-Continent". ANNALS OF SOCIAL SCIENCES AND PERSPECTIVE. Retrieved February 25, 2024. - already commented on above, one citation; not impressive;
• Akhtar, Awais (2018). "Religious Policy of Emperor Shahjahan (1627-1658AD)" (PDF). Journal of Indian Studies Vol. 4, No. 2,. Journal of Indian Studies.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link) - three citations, recent journal.

Personally I expect that the info is correct, but still, a solid historiographic study would be better:

• John F. Richards (1993), The Mughal Empire, Deel 1,Volume 5, Cambridge Ubiversity Press, p.34

Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 06:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for checking and putting this together Joshua Jonathan and agree with you that the John Richards source or something similar would be better to use. In which case it looks like on p.34 it's directly referencing a specific time frame of the rule, as it says the "...religious climate of sixteenth century India was more open and tolerant of change." Eucalyptusmint (talk) 01:28, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it is when the author is talking about Akbar, as you can see on the previous pages (i.e., p. 32–33). And further on p. 35, the author specifically says:

Akbar moved away from his former devotion to Islam and toward a self-conceived eclectic form of worship focused on light and the sun. In so doing he became more tolerant of non-Muslim practices and less inclined to insist on rigorous enforcement of discriminatory practices aimed at non-Muslims.

Also, on p. 38–39, Richards writes how Akbar abolished the intolerant policies of his predecessors.

Akbar's conflicts on this question with the Muslim religious establishment began early. In 1563 the young emperor abolished the practice of collecting a heavy tax from Hindu pilgrims when they gathered on festival occasions. In contravention of the Sharia, the emperor also granted non-Muslims permission to repair aging temples or to build new structures. In another controversial measure orders were issued that former Hindus who had been forcibly converted to Islam should be allowed to apostasize and escape the death penalty of the Sharia. He prohibited enslavement of war captives and the common practice of involuntary conversion of non-Muslim slaves.

The most sweeping policy change, which had a direct impact on nearly all Hindus, occurred in 1579. Akbar abolished the graduated property tax levied exclusively on non-Muslims, the jiziya. This was an annual tax imposed on the property of individual non-Muslims, who were legally classified as dhimmis or client groups tolerated and protected by Muslim rulers. State officers, usually ulema, collected sums based upon the wealth or possessions of the individual rate-payer. Only the indigent were exempted from payment. The regressive scale placed a real burden on the poorest taxpayers who paid an annual sum equivalent to a month's wages for an unskilled urban laborer.

The symbolic value of this measure was very great. The jiziya defined the status and public obligations of non-Muslims protected by the Islamic community. Payment entitled dhimmis to a peaceful existence under state protection and exempted them from military service. Terminating this tax implied that the unequal compact between Muslims and non-Muslims was also abolished — hence Akbar's action was bitterly resented by orthodox Muslims.

— Kaalakaa ^(talk) 05:36, 15 March 2024 (UTC)