RPG Industry sexual harassment, Mentzer, abuse and what do we do about it?

First off I'm not disagreeing with the subject of the Op Second I'm not ignorant for have a difference of opinion so I ask to please stop with personal ad hominem attacks on my character. Their is no need for them and one can simply disagree with what I wrote.

How do I explain this every time I read what Frank did to Jessica it boggles my mind. Not for what happened to her. I believe every word she said. How Frank acted and kept acting. It was like watching a train wreck waiting to happen imo. With Frank not only sabotaging his own controls. He also blew up the approaching bridge. Does he not have a family of his own? Children of his own? I guess it's the shock of seeing a person act that way. Not surprise because one would have to be living under a self imposed rock to not know the rpg industry has issues it needs to resolve. Then again should I really be shocked or dismayed. Their are male and female comic fans that think they way the Joker treated Harley Quinn pre-New 52 was a healthy and safe relationship.

The whole issue of Frank being blacklisted from the rpg industry. It's hard to feel sympathetic as to me it's creating one own self imposed blacklist. His behavior was inexcusable and just asking for himself to be blacklisted by everyone in the hobby. I did expect MUCH better from Paizo though a company that prides itself on being diverse as possible yet also trying to participate in a cover-up of similar bad behavior.

memorax300 said:

First off I'm not disagreeing with the subject of the Op Second I'm not ignorant for have a difference of opinion so I ask to please stop with personal ad hominem attacks on my character. Their is no need for them and one can simply disagree with what I wrote.

How do I explain this every time I read what Frank did to Jessica it boggles my mind. Not for what happened to her. I believe every word she said. How Frank acted and kept acting. It was like watching a train wreck waiting to happen imo. With Frank not only sabotaging his own controls. He also blew up the approaching bridge. Does he not have a family of his own? Children of his own? I guess it's the shock of seeing a person act that way. Not surprise because one would have to be living under a self imposed rock to not know the rpg industry has issues it needs to resolve. Then again should I really be shocked or dismayed. Their are male and female comic fans that think they way the Joker treated Harley Quinn pre-New 52 was a healthy and safe relationship.

The whole issue of Frank being blacklisted from the rpg industry. It's hard to feel sympathetic as to me it's creating one own self imposed blacklist. His behavior was inexcusable and just asking for himself to be blacklisted by everyone in the hobby. I did expect MUCH better from Paizo though a company that prides itself on being diverse as possible yet also trying to participate in a cover-up of similar bad behavior.

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Just a thought, not an attack: If it seems incomprehensible to you that Mentzer could be so clueless as to do what he did, then maybe its not due to him being clueless. Does it also seems to you unthinkable that he simply didn't care, that he could be so callous towards someone? Then maybe it's not that, although sociopathy as a thing has been determined to be quite real. What if it was both in combination? Being clueless towards people's feelings could be caused by both empathetic illiteracy and no desire to fix that problem. How about adding in the fact that maybe he profited (not economically; there's more than one type of profiting) from acting like this in the past, and it's encouraged him to keep going even though he's now getting backlash? Instead of being just that clueless, how about it being a confluence of many bad things emerging in a "perfect storm" of assholish behavior? Does that seem reasonable? It does to me: People are complicated entities, and it makes sense that an effect may have more than one specific cause.

However, I hope you understand that, to many in this thread, it's hard to get too concerned about why Mentzer did what he did. Many of us have primarily focused on how we can help present and future targets of this behavior right now and going forward. Those who have wronged people traditionally get less sympathy and concern than those who have been wronged. In this case, I see no reason for that to change. There's not much point in reflecting about why Mentzer and Paizo and that guy from Frog God, until we can firmly establish that, as a market, we make it clear that finding out about that type of behavior will cause us to vote with our wallet and our feet in another direction. If this is not enough, then we have to add approaches until we see success. First things first: the bad behavior (and the covering up of bad behavior) must stop.

Extinction Burp said:

Just a thought, not an attack: If it seems incomprehensible to you that Mentzer could be so clueless as to do what he did, then maybe its not due to him being clueless. Does it also seems to you unthinkable that he simply didn't care, that he could be so callous towards someone? Then maybe it's not that, although sociopathy as a thing has been determined to be quite real. What if it was both in combination? Being clueless towards people's feelings could be caused by both empathetic illiteracy and no desire to fix that problem. How about adding in the fact that maybe he profited (not economically; there's more than one type of profiting) from acting like this in the past, and it's encouraged him to keep going even though he's now getting backlash? Instead of being just that clueless, how about it being a confluence of many bad things emerging in a "perfect storm" of assholish behavior? Does that seem reasonable? It does to me: People are complicated entities, and it makes sense that an effect may have more than one specific cause.

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If I was doing something that another man or woman finds offensive. I stop, I apologize and don't do it again. I don't double down and make things worse. Such a shocking lack of common sense or any sense at all. Frank knew he was making Jessica uncomfortable to say the least. Then why continue. It's not even being clueless which he was not. It's being for lack of word just plain dumb. Not a social filter to be seen within miles. The man was asking to see his career and reputation ruined. Which in the grand scheme of things ended up being a good thing.

Extinction Burp said:

However, I hope you understand that, to many in this thread, it's hard to get too concerned about why Mentzer did what he did. Many of us have primarily focused on how we can help present and future targets of this behavior right now and going forward. Those who have wronged people traditionally get less sympathy and concern than those who have been wronged. In this case, I see no reason for that to change. There's not much point in reflecting about why Mentzer and Paizo and that guy from Frog God, until we can firmly establish that, as a market, we make it clear that finding out about that type of behavior will cause us to vote with our wallet and our feet in another direction. If this is not enough, then we have to add approaches until we see success. First things first: the bad behavior (and the covering up of bad behavior) must stop.

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We can try yet their will unfortunately still be people who defend such bad behavior while making excuses imo. All we can do is hope to be in the right place and time to prevent it happening again.

memorax300 said:

If I was doing something that another man or woman finds offensive. I stop, I apologize and don't do it again. I don't double down and make things worse. Such a shocking lack of common sense or any sense at all. Frank knew he was making Jessica uncomfortable to say the least. Then why continue. It's not even being clueless which he was not. It's being for lack of word just plain dumb. Not a social filter to be seen within miles. The man was asking to see his career and reputation ruined. Which in the grand scheme of things ended up being a good thing.

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It's because a whole shitload of people have minimized what he did and/or attacked the victims to silence them, which enable him (and others like him) to have kept doing what they've been doing consequence-free.

If THIS is actually the first time Mentzer has been called out on his actions enough and people rallied around those he harassed enough to finally cause him real repercussions, why WOULDN'T he have kept doing what he did up till now?

Novatian said:

Thank you for that. I thought there was something else here, but for some reason I remembered the folks pointing to examples of that in their lives/ their spouse's lives, but forgot the instance that set it all off. So it's:

1 - Frank Mentzer has had a tendency to be inappropriate/ harassing/ intimidating/ victim-blaming for a long time, and Jessica Price was one of the targets of this crap.
1b - Paizo told Price that they had limits to "how much of this sort of thing they'd tolerate" (meaning, unfortunately, not harassment, but Price's speaking up about being harassed) and thanked her for keeping quiet about it.

2 - Paizo produced an absolutely vile set of stats/ background material for their recent "Book of the Damned" that takes the excuses and "rationalizations" of child abusers and creates a system to make them magically valid within the context of a Pathfinder campaign. [I mean that word "magically" in a literal sense, since my understanding is that it is a form of demonic magic in the game.]

3 - Bill Webb (of Frog God Games) acted like a jerk and engaged in some serious harassment at PaizoCon.
3b - PaizoCon managers (or whatever their titles may have been) did nothing except try to make sure everything stayed quiet.

Please tell me that I've listed the key points, because the fact that Paizo has turned up at every point now is not good and is making me feel awkward about making more purchases from them.

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There's also this:

PST said:

https://twitter.com/Sphynxian/status/918577166190895106

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tl;dr Paizo's Organised Play/Pathfinder Society used legal threats against victim who had reported documented harassment aginst them, and took no action against the harasser.

ANT Pogo said:

It's because a whole shitload of people have minimized what he did and/or attacked the victims to silence them, which enable him (and others like him) to have kept doing what they've been doing consequence-free.

If THIS is actually the first time Mentzer has been called out on his actions enough and people rallied around those he harassed enough to finally cause him real repercussions, why WOULDN'T he have kept doing what he did up till now?

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Which is sad that some in the hobby did for some many years before and continue to hide and make excuses for such behavior. I think progress will be slow though. In my comic example above their still are female comic fans because they like the Joker as a character make excuses for the way he treated Harley Quinn. Granted it's a fictional relationship yet it's also the very defination of a creepy, toxic, vlolent relationship. It's bad enough for a male comic fan defending such poor writing. The opposite sex though. Is kind of creepy in itself imo.

Because a whole lot of men don't see women as people, only see them in relation to other men, and know certain peers will back them on it.

See every whining 'oh it is a witch hunt/lynching' op ed and think piece and both-sides 'I saw Rashomon' bit of minimisation. Women don't get to be real people, including the fact they unironically use terms relating to the systematised murder of women/black people to explain how exposing sexual harassment is horrible. Or I guess Rashomon with it's 'was it really rape' storyline fits their purposes too.

Mentzer wanted to 'flirt' to prop his ego up, and he got nowhere with that. So then he tried being an asshole and didn't get all the calming/soothing he seemed to expect (since he is a 'rational' guy). So then he went straight for 'this is slamming a door in my face'! Nonsense because he seems to earnestly believe the point of networking is to smile and eat the shit of your elders as you fend off their nastiness without ever hurting their feelings with a rejection. That kind of bullshit stymies entire industries because it actively destroys innovation, imagination, and the careers of anyone who loses their appetite to swallow their lies and smile.

Sure they want you to think it is age and social skills, that means they get to keep doing it as they 'learn'.

I am tired of women's work, lives, and careers being sacrificed so men can piss mark their territory without complaint.

You wanna make a difference? Support the people who speak up. Support innovation outside the gladhanding apologists who demand a party line from everyone from employees to freelancers. Stop letting people treat women like shit because you like what they make.

I focused on women but I wanna be clear - same shit goes for anyone non-male and non-white, non-straight.

I'd like to start by noting that I absolutely agree that Mentzer is awful and should be ostracized from the gaming community for this behavior. That said, the stuff about Paizo is why I'm posting here after having last posted over 9 years ago, since I've always liked Paizo, they're powerful and relevant, and this information is very disturbing.

Novatian said:

Thank you for that. I thought there was something else here, but for some reason I remembered the folks pointing to examples of that in their lives/ their spouse's lives, but forgot the instance that set it all off. So it's:

1 - Frank Mentzer has had a tendency to be inappropriate/ harassing/ intimidating/ victim-blaming for a long time, and Jessica Price was one of the targets of this crap.
1b - Paizo told Price that they had limits to "how much of this sort of thing they'd tolerate" (meaning, unfortunately, not harassment, but Price's speaking up about being harassed) and thanked her for keeping quiet about it.

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This is probably the most troubling thing in this list of incidents, at least to me. We're getting it out of context, of course, but it's still very unpleasant sounding and worrisome. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around someone at Paizo doing this and hoping it's all some sort of misunderstanding...but I'm well aware that may not be the case. And that's very worrying.

Novatian said:

2 - Paizo produced an absolutely vile set of stats/ background material for their recent "Book of the Damned" that takes the excuses and "rationalizations" of child abusers and creates a system to make them magically valid within the context of a Pathfinder campaign. [I mean that word "magically" in a literal sense, since my understanding is that it is a form of demonic magic in the game.]

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This, as an assertion of wrongdoing, is absurd and doesn't belong in the same thread as the others. The Daemonic Deity in question (Folca) is unambiguously one of the most Evil creatures in the setting. Yes, his worshipers gain powers that make them better at doing horrible things to children, but it in no way makes their rationalizations true. Yes, they get magic to make people have sex with them, but magic roofies are still roofies. And memory alteration, while horrific, doesn't change actual events.

And this is all in a book where Evil deities grant similar powers for purposes every bit as dark (cannibalism, murder, rape, you name it). It's not presented as good or right or normal. Cultists of Folca (whatever their species) are monsters and should be destroyed...and the setting entirely supports this. Saying the people at Paizo are bad people for including him is like saying the same about anyone involved in Nightmare on Elm Street, a franchise which also involves a horrific child abuser with superhuman powers.

Novatian said:

3 - Bill Webb (of Frog God Games) acted like a jerk and engaged in some serious harassment at PaizoCon.
3b - PaizoCon managers (or whatever their titles may have been) did nothing except try to make sure everything stayed quiet.

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In fairness, it sounds like they separated him from the person he was targeting and then got someone to guard her. He only wasn't kicked out because he was drunk and had his kids with him (and was their only ride out of there), which is reasonable if you're not going to involve the police (which there may or may not have been legitimate reasons not to do, such as his target not wanting to get them involved).

Him not being banned from future PaizoCons due to this event is troubling, but the story did also note that all this was done the way it was because they couldn't find an executive to make a decision (as was policy for this sort of event). It's still a problem, and one Paizo needs to respond to and look into, as things clearly weren't handled particularly well and better policies for handling such things are needed, but there's been no evidence presented that anyone actually in charge at Paizo even knew about this incident at the time.

Novatian said:

Please tell me that I've listed the key points, because the fact that Paizo has turned up at every point now is not good and is making me feel awkward about making more purchases from them.

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There was also mention of someone working with the Pathfinder Society Organized Play organization being harassed and their harasser not being punished while they were threatened with their NDA if they pursued the matter through legal channels. Now, Organized Play is organizationally separate from Paizo to a large extent, and given that there's also a recent story of Organized Play banning someone permanently for sexual harassment, this seems to me like it might be one person in the Organized Play environment abusing their authority rather than an organization-wide phenomenon.

But that's pure speculation, and it remains deeply troubling (especially combined with the other incidents noted) and something that Paizo and the Pathfinder Society people would investigate immediately and rigorously.

NDAs for intellectual property are one thing, but NDAs for behavior are abusive as fuck and need to stop right the hell now. Anyone reading this who is in any sort of position of authority regarding this matter: make sure you never ask anyone to sign an NDA regarding how they are treated on the job. That shit is vile and unacceptable.

memorax300 said:

Which is sad that some in the hobby did for some many years before and continue to hide and make excuses for such behavior. I think progress will be slow though. In my comic example above their still are female comic fans because they like the Joker as a character make excuses for the way he treated Harley Quinn. Granted it's a fictional relationship yet it's also the very defination of a creepy, toxic, vlolent relationship. It's bad enough for a male comic fan defending such poor writing. The opposite sex though. Is kind of creepy in itself imo.

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It's possible to like a fictional relationship between fictional characters without supporting the same thing in real life.