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General Discussion (May Contain Spoilers from S1 to 2nd film)
What do you think is the most unrealistic thing about Downton Abbey?
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How cool everyone was with Thomas being gay, the only reaction that was even remotely realistic was Carson’s and even that was mild as he blamed nature for Thomas being gay (“You have been twisted by nature into something foul”) instead of acting like Thomas had a choice in the matter and just treating him like a disgusting sexual deviant.
I came to say this, it was an open secret and they even joked about it like handsome stewards on the ship.
I read once somewhere it wasn't uncommon for gay men to work in noble houses because they wouldn't really have to explain why they never got married and started a family and the head of the family wouldn't have to worry about a straight man leaving in the same house as his wife and sisters and daughters. No idea if it's true though.
I read that there's apparently a whole crew of gay men among the upper servants in Buckingham Palace today (or there was during Elizabeth's reign).
There's a story that the Queen Mother ordered a cocktail one evening, got tired of waiting for it, and called downstairs, "Is there an old queen downstairs who can bring an old queen upstairs a gin and tonic?"
The Queen Mother had a loyal servant called William Tallon, known as Backstairs Billy. www.tatler.com>article>backstairsbilly
Alfred and Jimmy weren't exactly cool with it, and the others only tolerated him as long as he lived the life of a confirmed bachelor i.e. he didn't act on it.
I also suspect it is part of the reason Lord Grantham is reluctant to have him as valet; he'd be dressed by him.
I think he just didn't really like him, because he talks about it being tiring that they won't let it go downstairs after the Jimmy situation, and mentions it happening at Eton. I think he just wasn't keen on him, and he knew he was a thief etc.
I had thought that until I read some research specifically on the differences between the attitude towards gay men in the north versus the south of England. In London it was very common to be arrested and being gay was very much frowned on but, it actually wasn't so much in the north. In fact, it was probably more accepted than it is today in some areas. What WAS unrealistic was that Thomas went to a gay club because there weren't any, and almost nobody was ever arrested for it in the north. There simply weren't the numbers of police and men socialised with each other more openly because few people cared.
I'm not saying they would all be quite as accepting as they were but for most of them they either didn't know (Daisy etc) or knew and chose to say nothing (Mrs Patmore etc). Until Jimmy came along, Thomas was not obvious about it so nobody would have mentioned it.
I'm not sure if he would have been sacked after Jiimmy in Yorkshire.
The thing is that JF didn't know that because he clearly wrote the story as if it was going on in London (the gay club etc), in which case they would have been a lot more condemning of him. They should have either been relatively cool with it and not had the threats of arrest and the gay club or have nobody be fine with it and keep the gay club but accept that it's not realistic for Yorkshire at that time.
Mrs. Hughes told Mr. Bates that Carson couldn’t ignore Thomas being gay because it was out in the open, whereas before, “We didn’t know officially.”
That makes sense to me, especially in a society where people didn’t like to talk about private things.
It’s also unrealistic that Thomas is the ONLY gay person besides the Duke for most of the series. There were lots of gay and lesbian people working in service
I think the entire show is based on how accepting everyone, up and downstairs are. That's what makes, or help make the entire cast so lovable and likable. I'm re-watching it now.
There is actually a pretty long history of the aristocracy or people close to it, being willing to turn a bit of a blind eye to homosexuality. But probably not in the specific way as happened with Thomas, I think the "blind eye" would sort of extend up until some problem arose--Jimmy's allegations against Thomas for example would have been a dealbreaker, or Thomas's arrest. No one in the family would have stood up for him or come to his aid in those scenarios.
Now, the early season stuff where it was "an open secret" that everyone knew Barrow was gay, but no specific incident that was made public had come up, I think it is pretty realistic a noble family, at least some of them, would ignore such a thing.
Even outside of the aristocracy if you read the history of how homosexuals were treated in Western Europe, most of the time the authorities tended to only go after people for overt acts.
The lack of smokers. I know Thomas and O’Brian did and very few others.
Bates smoked in the first couple of episodes - and that was it.. it’s a bit like “only the bad guys smoke in movies / tv series” from the late 80’s - well, here in Australia, anyway .
We briefly caught Rose sneaking a cigarette once.
I think it's because it's was not well seeing for a woman to smoke back in the day especially in wealthy families.. Cigarettes for women became popular in the 50's and 60's. In France contrary to the cliché women didn't smoke a lot before the 60's and 70's. Most smokers were men.
Weren't they popular prior to WWII between women? I don't know but I think I've seen a lot of smoker women in period movies set then, Upstairs-Downstairs 2011 and Gosford park are in my mind now.🤔
I think in Downton the lack of male smoker is weird not female. It's only Thomas and Jimmy.
The lack of male smokers is very weird. But a woman smoking pre WWII would have been highly improper. If she did, she wouldn’t be caught doing it publicly, but even still it wasn’t as common. This is a big reason why women’s lung cancer rates were lower than men’s for a long time.
Oh, alright. I did know about its popularity in 50s to 70s but I thought they became common for the upper class women in 30s. Guess that's what happens when one takes period shows where women smoke like a chimney as a real reference....:)
Yes, so have I.
Not sure about the 1920s and earlier (although I think “flapper culture” was very accepting of women smoking). Girls and young women who still lived at home with their parents were seen as “fast”, etc., if they smoked, however.
It’s very true that smoking was super popular with men to a point where it was almost ubiquitous once a man was 21, but it’s also true that cigarette were called “coffin nails” even 100 years ago, and boys were often promised some kind of reward if they refrained from smoking until then.
Edith’s editor Laura Edmunds smokes. I always thought it was to highlight how modern she is.
I have read a lot of novels written in the 1910s and 1920s with lots of young women smoking. It is weird to me that no one in the family smoked at all. Well, Lord Grantham did smoke cigars.
Everybody smoked in the trenches to cover the smell and Matthew would have been up on charges for not having a moustache (that actually happened to one officer who repeatedly shaved his off!)
Oh yeah the lack of mustaches in general is another one
Thank God for that. I hate mustaches.
Robert smoked cigarettes after dinner since season 1
There’s also scene with him and Matthew having cigars when Matthew was back from his honeymoon
How nice the Crawleys are to the servants. How much the servants are allowed to interfere in the lives of the actual aristocrats. It's completely ludicrous. Might as well tell me Isis is the actual goddess of magic and healing, in the form of a dog this time around.
Exactly - Mary’s apology to Carson for acting in a way that made him feel he could advise her is like…how she would’ve spoken to Anna if she suggested Mary try a new perfume irl
Not even that like, there's a scene in that new movie on Netflix about Prince Andrew, where he yells at and mocks a maid because she placed some plush toys in the wrong order and I'm like, yeah that checks out. Those are royals/nobles alright.
By season 4 where that happens between Mary and Carson we've walked through the looking glass and this is a new reality. Yeah sure the butler is a father figure to the lady of the house what else is new.
Even in the very first episode of season 1, hiring Bates when he's disabled? And he hadn't disclosed it in his application? He'd have been out the door the same day.
I always got the sense that Robert knew about Bate’s disability but didn’t think to mention it to anyone else because he’s a bit of a himbo lol
He’s the only one who doesn’t seem surprised or bothered about it until it starts affecting Bate’s work
It's stil unrealistic for an actual real life earl, that's all. Fictional Robert is kind and understanding even to someone so far down the social ladder. A real life Earl would never.
You reminded me of how the royal servants used to openly talked about how much they hated Andrew cuz he was an arrogant, annoying buffoon of a man. On the other hand, Prince Philip was publicly known as a curmudgeon, but the servants loved working for him because of how kind and unfussy he was towards them.
My mum's cousin served with him in the navy and they all hated him. My cousin's exact words were 'universally loathed'
When did Anna suggest Mary try a new perfume?
Never. They're saying, if Anna did that.
When I rewatch I can’t get over how many of the family members are hugging servants and socializing with them in public at the garden party, last episode of season 1.
Right?! Just unreal.
I know. It’s like, there were aristocrats who treated their servants kindly back then, but them being that friendly is way too unrealistic. lol
Their only friends are the servants lol, at wedding, Christmas it’s so funny
Not to mention how weirdly not racist they were towards the singer (can’t place the name), Edith was the only one who thought he “shouldn’t be here”
The anachronistic progressivism in general can be really jarring.
They were ok with him providing entertainment but not dating Rose or even dancing with her to save her embarrassment
I mean, Mathew did recover from being paralyzed below the waist.....
OMG, and his and Mary's fertility issues were fixed.
Isis, you magnificent dog you 🙌
She really dropped the ball for Lavinia and Lady Sybil, though
Lord Crawley feels a real sense of responsibility for the people in the town that he owns.
This is the biggest one to me. I think it is a common trope in this sort of costume show though, the issue is show runners want the noble family to be "normal" characters on the show. If they actually portrayed the harshness of the British class system as it existed in 1900-1930, there is just no way any of the Crawleys would appear remotely sympathetic. Since the show doesn't want to be about hard hitting critiques of the old class system, they water the Crawleys down to be more beneficent.
It is interesting to see how the norms have shifted over time. If you go back to Upstairs, Downstairs, which aired starting in 1971, the aristocratic Bellamy family is portrayed as far more aloof and imperious towards staff--but they weren't really considered "villains" in the show, the patriarch Richard Bellamy is shown as a flawed man, but outside of his personal indiscretions having a sense of honor. He doesn't come off as villainous in the show, but if Lord Grantham had been portrayed in the same vein 40 years later, he would have come off far worse--societal views on the class system had changed enough in that time that a more accurate portrayal of the aristocracy would have too strongly poisoned the audience against the entire "upstairs" cast.
You're correct on so many levels, including the fact that exactly because the class system was much more "respected" back in the 70s, portraying the Bellamy family as imperious was not an issue for the audience, that was how they thought of aristocrats and, more importantly, they didn't mind.
I also stand firm on the idea that Fellowes is actually pushing an ideology through the show. He is after all an aristocrat himself, enjoys a seat in the House of Lords, no wonder all his socialist characters are portrayed as lunatics come to upend the "correct way of things.
All that perfect sunshine everyday in Yorkshire!
To be fair, there are some rainy scenes, and a lot of indoor scenes have rain beating the windows that you can miss if you're not actively listening for it.
😂😂😂😂 excellent point!
I was just watching the Christmas episode with Richard Carlisle and there’s leaves on all the trees and the servants are unloading the tree outside without coats on lol
😂
I like this question, I wanted to ask it myself a few weeks ago.
how Tom was accepted into the family. I don’t see the British aristocracy accepting to dine at the same table as Tom. I can’t eventually imagine the Crawley accepting him, but not their network and peers. The social gap was simply too wide.
the Crawley were too nice with the servants. Ultimately they were their bosses, and they expected them to work as hard as possible.
Not to mention Tom was Irish. And very proud of it.
I’m surprised he was hired at all let alone his marriage and membership.
Yeah I think irl lord Grantham would have reacted a lot more violently to the prospect of his daughter marrying an Irish chauffeur. The social consequences for the family were simply too overwhelming. The Dowager would also never consent to it.
It’s always hilarious to me how the Crawleys accepted him into the family. A lower class Irish nationalist who hates King George V (who the family has ties to)? Sure! Welcome to the family, old chap!
That Thomas escaped being fired so many times. The amount of schemes he pulled and got away with was ridiculous! I can understand the Crawley’s keeping O’Brien because she was a lot more clever in her meddling but Thomas literally got caught with his hand in Mr. Carson’s wallet, stealing wine, kissing another servant in his sleep, etc.
Anna giving birth in Mary’s bed.. the house had enough spare rooms . Carson’s reaction would’ve been spot on..
That was just utterly ridiculous.
Apparently the actual house has some 100+ bedrooms.
How tolerant everyone is. In reality (sadly), at that time I’m sure people were more likely to be racist, homophobic, much more judgemental of unwed mothers.
Of course, if the show was full of intolerant and horrible characters it would not be a pleasant show to watch, so I understand why JF toned it down. But historically, I don’t think is a realistic portrayal of 1920/30s society.
Bertie and his mum accepting Edith after the revelation about Marigold
Granted, if that was earlier in the series, it would've been her villain origin story 😆
Mr Bates seemed to do nothing in the later seasons. Just read the newspaper at the table
And his limp pretty much disappeared!
Always thought how odd it was that he didn't seem to need a cane while he was in prison
LOL! I can imagine that he wasn’t allowed to have a cane in prison, as he could potentially have used it as a weapon.
That was probably it. But even if he could walk without a cane, wouldn't he have an unsteady gait?? He walks so confidently in that depressing little circle in the patio 😩
He did do a bit of forging and pickpocketing to be fair to him.
How clean Daisy was at the beginning. I read somewhere that scullery maids are very filthy.
The straight teeth and amazing eyesight!
Their teeth are also SO WHITE.
And lack of smallpox scars!
Wasn’t smallpox largely under control in Britain by then? They started vaccinating people for it in the late 1700’s using Edwin Jenner’s method so I’d think at least the aristocracy wouldn’t still be getting it.
Yeah but this thread is full of people not understanding the time period.
How slight all the female staff were - esp daisy. She was carrying buckets of coal up and down massive flights of stair each day, she should have been built
They weren't' fed the greatest, didn't have a lot of sunlight
They wouldnt have been healthy, but still would've had muscle. Hannah Culwick, maid of all work in the Victorian era was recorded as having 13 and a half inch biceps
That is the most fascinating random fact I have heard in ages! Thank you.
Not Downton but late 1910 early 1920: my grandma was a maid in a house and the cooks were sisters, they called them "The Percherons" because in our culture bread is huge and those ladies made 50 kilos of flour every day. You can imagine they would have had enormous torsos, hence their nicknames.
That the Earl and his family are so friendly with the servants.
Some people will say it's how many old people there are. But the life expectancy was dragged down a lot by infant mortality, so the real answer there is... the lack of dead kids is unrealistic.
In 1915 16.2% of children died before their fifth birthday and yet not a single child dies in the 16 years of Downton. Not even a minor character's child, like one of Mrs Drewe's other children. Even little Charlie growing up in abject poverty survives. Dr Clarkson never mentions a child dying, even in passing.
Not disagreeing with your point but just want to correct that I do remember William Mason had siblings. Just looked it up -- three brothers and one sister who all died in infancy.
Yes - but a long time before the Downton timeline 1912-28 - and it's the only mention of dead kids at all
Cora's late miscarriage / stillbirth wouldn't have been registered or recorded in the statistics - stillbirths weren't registered at all until 1927
How old was she supposed to be in the movie? I thought it was unrealistic how she got pregnant again years and years later. She's 62 in real life but I thought she was maybe supposed to be in her 50's in the show?
Wait did she get pregnant again?
They could’ve done this and added to the heir thing if there was a brother or two who’d died at four or something.
You also have to keep in mind infant and young children mortality rates were higher in the urban areas than in the rural areas.
Children weren't apart of the show until Season 3 which was 1920. There could have been deaths but they weren't important for the show even in passing.