“The Rhythm & Religion of Sports” with Wright Thompson
Shownotes:
It is undeniable that sports have always played a significant role in our society. They have a unique way of uniting, inspiring, and exciting mass populaces in a manner that is irreplicable. For many communities in America, the sports scene plays a vital role in terms of general morale, and for many, economic vitality. Furthermore, sports have served as a therapeutic and restorative outlet for communities in the face of tragedy.
However, this outlet that we have often taken for granted has turned from a therapy to a threat as COVID-19 continues to spread throughout the globe. Stadiums stand empty, seasons are postponed or cancelled, and the future of our favorite pastimes are up in the air.
We feel the weight of this absence in our lives.
Joining us to discuss what it is that makes the absence of sports so impactful is Wright Thompson. Thompson is a senior writer for ESPN.com with an extensive career in sports journalism. A native Mississippian, Wright is well known for his work with ESPN’s 30 for 30 special covering the intersection of Ole Miss Football and the tumultuous events that took place on campus during its integration in the midst of the Civil Rights Movement in 1962.
Throughout his life, Wright has been immersed in the world of sports and has a deep understanding of the impact it has on culture, as well as the void it leaves when they are not around during times of crisis.
Resources:
The Ghosts of Mississippi http://www.espn.com/espn/eticket/story?page=mississippi62&redirected=true
Michael Jordan Has Not Left the Building
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/page/Michael-Jordan/michael-jordan-not-left-building
Full Transcript:
Wright Thompson
Chris McAlilly: I’m Chris.
Eddie Rester: and I’m Eddie, and welcome to The Weight.
CM: Today on the podcast, we are talking to Wright Thompson.
ER: Wright Thompson grew up in Clarksdale, Mississippi. I was Youth Directer there for a few years, know a lot of folks that, uh, he grew up with, um, great story of, really honing his craft of writing about American sports. And cricket, apparently.
CM: Yeah, he’s, he’s at home, I think he said for 58 days, just like everybody else, um, just trying to make it day-by-day, in his cave, writing. But he’s also thinking about the place of sports in our culture and how we, kind of reflecting without kind of the rush of the spring sports season, what is the place of sports in our lives?
ER: And I think that’s an important conversation for all of us, at every level, high school, college, pro, um, we gather around our teams, to root for our teams. Whether that’s the Ackerman Indians when I was growing up, or, ah, you didn’t root for the Ackerman Indians, Chris?
CM: I didn’t root for the Ackerman Indians. I didn’t know you were an Ackerman Indian, man.
ER: How, how long have we known each other?
CM: I, I learn something new about you every day.
ER: Every. Single. Day. So. So he talks a lot about power of sport to bring community, so it’s a great conversation, um, so I hope, ah, I hope you enjoy that today.
[INTRO]
ER: Let’s be honest. There are some topics that are too heavy for a 20-minute sermon. There are issues that need conversation, not just explanation.
CM: We believe that the church is called to engage in a way that honors the weightiness and importance of these topics for how we live faithfully today. We’ll cover everything from art to mental health, social injustice to the future of the church.
ER: If it’s something the culture talks about, we need to be talking about it, too.
[END INTRO]
ER: Today, we’re glad to have Wright Thompson on The Weight with us. Wright is a senior writer for espn.com. He’s written for ESPN The Magazine. Uh, he’s written a great book that came out last year, The Cost of These Dreams. We’re gonna talk a little bit about that today. Wright, welcome to The Weight today.
Wright Thompson: Aw, man, thanks for having me.
CM: Yeah, thanks for coming, coming and spending some time with us, Wright.
WT: Of course.
ER: It’s a strange, it’s a strange time for, for a sports writer, I’m sure, ah, without a lot of sports going on.
WT: Uh, I mean, it’s very, very odd. I, ah, I think today is the 58th day at home.
ER: [chuckles] Oh gosh.
WT: And, uh, this is the longest I’ve ever been in one place since I was 18, certainly.
ER: What…
WT: Uh
ER: What’s your wife think about you being home for 58 days?
WT: Well, you know, that’s a good question. Uh, uh, luckily, I think we like each other, but, I mean, that wasn’t a slam dunk 54 days ago.
[ER & CM laughter]
WT: I mean, ah, so, that, that’s been lucky. I feel like this is a weird, sort of, like… I think this let’s you know if you’re supposed to be married to the person you’re married to or not. ‘Cause I think you either really like it, or, like, every flaw shows.
ER: That’s right.
WT: So, ah, it’s been pretty good around here. I mean, we’re climbing the walls, uh, and there’s sort of the, you know, there’s, there’s existential dread, but the day-to-day isn’t that bad.
CM: Yeah, I think that’s the case, ah, I think, I hear that echoed over and over and over again. I think the thing that I, you know, it, for a guy like you, your, your life is really structured by the national sports scene, and with that being, I mean, that’s the case for all of us, I mean, I feel that way as a spectator, but I, I’m sure it’s gotta be, gotta be tough when you’re, you are physically moving around the country, ah, based on what’s happening.
WT: I mean, I’m on the road, I’ve been on the road for the last 20 years 200+ days a year.
CM: Wow.
ER: That’s, that’s unbelievable.
WT: And, I’ve been, you know, non-stop, so, I mean, I was on the, on Thursday, March 12, which is the day all this fell apart, I mean, I was in Phoenix, Arizona with Clayton Kershaw, pitcher of the Los Angeles Dodgers. I mean, I was sort of jerked out of, I mean was just doing my thing, and then realized, like, “I think I need to fly home now.” Like, like, this is, “I need to fly home before I get stuck here.” You know, I looked into driving. It was 24 hours from Phoenix to Oxford, you know? I was like, “am I going to have to drive home?” So, I mean, you know, that was, it was all… and, look, that drive through West Texas, is just like,
ER: Terrible
WT: There’s, there’s, there’s a great, ah, James McMurtry is a songwriter, and his, ah, his dad was Larry McMurtry, the writer
ER: Yeah
WT: and, ah, James has this song, and he’s like, ah, ah, “makes you wonder why they stopped here/wagon musta lost a wheel/or they lacked ambition.” And I’m like…
[chuckles]
CM: Yeah, my grandfather, my grand, the way my grandfather told that story, he was from Winston County, Mississippi, he used to say, you know, I was going to see a, aaah, a girl out in California when I was in college, and he said, he said, “You gotta be wary of those, those folks out in California.” I said, “Why, Grandaddy?” And he said, he said, “Well, they’re, they’re the folks who couldn’t cut it in here in Winston County.” But he said, “You gotta be really careful about the folks in Denver, Colorado, ‘cause those are the ones that couldn’t make it to California. They, they, they couldn’t, they couldn’t cut it in Winston County, but they couldn’t make it to California.”
WT: That’s hilarious. I mean, it’s like, yeah, you’re like, man, why did you stop in Stillwater, Oklahoma?
[laughter]
ER: Well
WT: You know, like, ah, but naw it’s been, so it’s been very, very odd, and, uh, I mean, I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but it’s also made me, like, really look at the things I like about sports and the things I don’t. And, you know, I think we all like both live sports and televised sports, and just sort of talking about sports and following a team or an athlete with your friends or family, it’s just a way to create community. And I find myself, like, missing that, and not missing any of the other stuff—who’s getting hired, who’s getting fired, I mean, you know, it, it made me, you know, I mean it, I don’t know if you’ve had that experience.
ER: You know, I, I, ah, sitting, as all this started, my girls came downstairs, and they were like, “Dad what are you watching?” And I’m like, “Well, it’s the1992, ah, basketball game, USA vs. Angola.” And, ah, [chuckles], they’re, “… I, Dad, what are you doing?” But, you know it was fun to watch, but it’s not that thing that anybody else was watching it with me, and I, we couldn’t talk about, um, talk about what was happening in the game. And I think the interesting thing right now, the Jordan documentary, is kind of like the only thing that’s happening for sports right now. And, it, I mean, it’s, the, the conversations around that are, at least among my friends, are pretty intense, almost like watching the Bulls push through the playoffs again.
WT: I mean, it’s really crazy, uh, our primetime ratings are up, because of that doc. [chuckles]
CM: That’s, that’s crazy.
WT: I mean, I mean, you know, it’s, uh,
CM: People are bored, man.
WT: it’s really interesting. No, people are really, really bored. And I mean
CM: I did
WT: yeah
CM: I did think it’s worth getting into the Jordan stuff, but before we get there, I, I, I going back into sports that creates community, I, I think there’s, there’s something, there’s definitely something there. I, I go back to, um, you know, the, the ways in we’ve, you’ve got the people that are really close to you, and then you’ve got the 50,000 people that are cheering with you. Um. But that is real, there are, uh, within that there are all the, the people that sit in the stands with you for 20 years or whatever, you know that, that share the same portion of the stadium, that you kind of create a camaraderie with through the years.
WT: For sure. I mean, it’s been interesting, we’ve had, over the last four or five years, uh, we sit in Section O, uh, on the opposite, under the overhang
ER: Yeah
WT: uh, right across from the press, like on the other side from the press box. And we’ve had some turnover, you know. I mean, I sort of have been using this time to think about… I mean, I sort of hope we can have an, like, an Ole Miss Athletics reset. I mean, it’s sort of, the level of toxicity that I didn’t even really think about, when you, when it all stops for a second and you can really look at it, it’s become really toxic. And I’m sort of hoping that when we come out of this, it could, I don’t know, it could feel different.
ER: And I, and I wonder about that, kinda this existential moment for all of sports. What is it that, you know, you were talking about realizing it’s the community, the conversation that you love, and all the hiring and firing stuff is just extra. You know, I wonder if that’s gonna happen as we look at all of sports and try to figure out, “Okay, what is it that we like?” And maybe the sports themselves will realize, “this is what’s important.” I don’t know if we’ll have that time to reflect before we dive back in or not. But, but it seems like we need to.
WT: I know, but I mean, you know. I feel like you have a unique perspective on this, given your profession, but isn’t it your experience that people never learn?
ER: [chuckles] Yeah
CM: Yeah, I was about to say
ER: it’s the story of scripture
[CM chuckles]
CM: Judges, you know
ER: Yeah
CM: First Samuel
ER: Second Samuel, Kings, the whole thing
WT: Yeah
CM: it’s a long, it’s a long tragic, ah, yeah, it’s like watching the Cubs for years, without the World Series
WT: Yeah, you’re just like, you know, there’s a reason we have to do this every single Sunday, it’s ‘cause you idiots can’t get it right
[laughter]
ER: Exactly right
WT: ah, you know, but like, there is a degree of “of course we’re not going to learn anything.”
[laughter]
ER: That's wishful thinking.
WT: Uh, uh, I started a diet, when, uh, when this all happened. You know…
ER: How long, how’d that go? Yeah
WT: It was great for, like, two weeks, and then I was just like, all I want in the world is hot-n-ready.
[laughter]
ER: You know, as, as we were gonna actually have a conversation next fall about sports and culture, but as the sports disappeared, we decided it was time to go ahead and do it.
WT: Yeah
ER: and, and reading several of the, the, the, of your articles through the years, um, and, and most of them are in the book that you put out last year, but, there’s one that you wrote about the Cubs
WT: Yeah
ER: when they finally broke through and won the World Series. And, just the, the woman whose mom had died, I think, between games 2 and 3, um,
WT: Yeah
ER: Why is, I, I mean, you pointed to just the power of sports in our lives. What is it, as you’ve worked, I mean, you’ve covered cricket, uh, what is it about sport that really draws humanity to it? What’s that power?
WT: That’s, that’s interesting, because it both draws humanity to it, and it is, it reflects who we are at us in ways that are comfortable and uncomfortable. I mean, you know, everything that’s going, every bit of division that’s going on in the country now, you could’ve, you know, just looking at the Ole Miss-Mississippi State rivalry starting a decade ago, that was the cah… sports are like the canary in the mineshaft. And like, whatever is really going on in the culture is manifest in the games we play, just as it’s manifest in the music we listen to and the, you know, I mean, it, it, it’s… so in that way, it’s a mirror. But it’s also, I don’t know. I think that, uh, just as we can often see the worst of ourselves in these games, uh, whether it’s the Houston Astros cheating or doping, like, you know, the worst human impulses are on display, so, too, are the best. I mean, the, you know the thing I’ve missed about sports is, and I think that we take for granted, is just how difficult it is, and, for these people to do this and to be willing to fail in front of that many people just for the chance of succeeding feels to me like what life is about in miniature. I mean, it’s like, you know, I think those are the things that I like about it. And about us, as you know, people—children of God, animals on a rock—I mean, it’s you know, it’s, like… that’s it, I think, is the, is how sports turns the… it’s like speeded up real life, it’s you know, it’s 80 years in a moment.
ER: Right.
WT: And so, I, I, that’s what I like.
CM: Yeah, it’s also, like, you know, any of the best novels or the best, you know, serial documentaries, or, or, or TV shows, you kinda get it, a beginning, a middle, and an end. Um and I think that’s also one of the things that’s really highlighted right now, is that we don’t know what story we’re a part of anymore, you know, and I think that sports… we don’t know when the end of the pandemic is gonna be, and so it just creates a lot of unknown. And sports always have felt, I mean first as an athlete myself and then, you know a spectator through the years of various sports, you know, you, you know when the season’s gonna begin, you kinda know what that’s gonna be like, you know. And you have the, there’s hope and expectation in that. And then when things inevi, when everything inevitably falls away, like, you know how to, there’s tragedy, ah, within the context of, it’s not real tragedy, it’s a, it’s a kind of elevated or
WT: yeah yeah
CM: suspended tr… yeah, it’s like, “aw man,” it’s like, we’re “we lost it all again.” And, but then you know what the end is gonna be like, and then you have the anticipation of the next year. You get the beginning, the middle, and the end. And you just don't have that right now. And it’s, ah, it’s, it sucks. I mean, it really, it’s no fun.
WT: And like, you know, the it’s interesting the degree to which, like, we really don’t know how it’s gonna end yet. I mean, so, like, I think that uncertainty is, you know. I mean like I’m thinking about, like, I mean is there gonna be an Abe’s Barbecue in Clarksdale when this is over?
ER: Mmhm.
WT: Is there gonna be, you know what I mean? Like, when you start thinking about, like, what are the little pieces of life that won’t make it,
ER: Right
WT: uh, you know, I mean, like, I don’t know, I’ve been thinking a lot about that and about sports, too, I mean, you know, they’ve got to have a football season, if only because, I mean, otherwise, like, I think that Regions Bank is gonna own that stadium, do you know what I mean?
ER: Yeah.
WT: I can’t even imagine what the debt service is on
CM: Yeah, the economics
WT: all these facilities.
CM: The economics
WT: are they really gonna, like, you know, can they repossess an arena?
[laughter]
WT: Right, send out the bounty hunter? You know what I mean?
ER: Chain the door shut. Keep everybody from their, their, their Caine’s chicken. Yeah.
WT: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. But it’s all really, I don’t know, the uncertainty, is, ah, you know.
ER: There’s, there’s an article today in the New York Times, I don’t know if you saw it, by Frank Zimmerman? He wrote about baseball today.
WT: I did not, but I’ve been, I’ve been up writing, so I, I just sort of came out of my cave.
ER: He is, the healing power of baseball. And the thing that he talks about baseball, and he says that we need baseball back. He says that baseball played during the 1918 pandemic, the, they’ve played during world wars, um, you know, the commissioner in the 1940s said, “Play baseball. The world needs baseball.” um, and, you know, part of what, there’s a quote he says, um, “Spectator sports have therapeutic benefit in times of both national and personal crisis. For our few precious hours, we are distracted, engaged in virtual competition, as the athletes we either watch in person or view on screen become our avatars.” Um. “We celebrate victories, mourn their losses as if they were our own.” Um, so, I, I feel like, you, you, you’re, there’s something that just is missing for us right now.
WT: well, it’s, what we’re missing is, uh, you know there’s a, you know there’s a… I read an obituary for John Prine, the singer/songwriter who died from coronavirus,
CM: God, God bless John Prine.
ER: Mmhmm.
WT: Exactly, yeah I know. And his wife said something so interesting. Said before he died, he was really mourning the way that, ah, that our political and cultural and civic divides were, had become physical and manifest because of the virus. That it was, in a way, mirroring in our own bodies, ah, a sort of intellectual virus that had already run rampant. And, like, I thought that was really interesting. And I think, as a way of talking about what we miss about sports, it’s that I think we miss, we miss everything that makes us a community, ah, and sports are at or near the top of that list. I mean, you know, the things people do religiously—with a lower-case r—are, you know, people follow their teams. People, you know, have restaurants they go to on certain days and have for years. People go to church on Sunday and then all go to, like, all the little ways in which we are a tribe of people have been stripped away, and I think what it has revealed is we are not a tribe of people.
CM: Yeah that’s ah,
ER: Wow.
CM: Yeah, there’s, there’s something, there’s something going on there for sure. I think, it’s interesting to me that you, that you see that. Eh, you know, I think one of the things that, one of the trends in, in ah, in sports writing, and I, I feel like you’re a writer who writes about sports, you could equally have written about any, any number of other things, including music, and culture, whatever. I, I think that trend towards, I mean, I grew up readin’ Rick Cleveland and the
WT: Oh, I love Rick
ER, CM: Yeah
CM: in, in the Mississippi, you know, sp-sports, ah, arena, I mean I would, I lived for those articles when I was in, when I was 12 and 14 and 16 and whatever. But i, you know, I think there’s this trend in, ah, I mean, part of it, it’s, it’s money, part of it’s kind of celebrity, there’s a kind of celebrity culture that kind of hovers above the community aspects. And, I don’t know, I think there’s something about the way that you write, you’re writing about human beings who are watching and participating in sports, so it’s like, the, it’s, sports just is the activity or the backdrop for the larger kind of human drama.
WT: Well, ‘cause that’s what I think sports are.
CM: Yeah.
WT: I mean, you know, ah, I find… you know, the thing I like most about Ole Miss football is that it, there’re 8 fa—there are 8 mini family reunions a year.
ER: That’s right.
WT: like, I mean, honestly, I don’t understand people who… I understand sort of pretending to be mad, and I understand being upset hours after a game ends, but, like, I really don’t understand people who are really angry that their team loses. Like, I don’t get it. Like, I mean, it, it, you know, it is,
ER: Yeah.
WT: I like, you know, this is this thing I really like, I’m not gonna ruin it.
[laughter]
ER: Yeah. I think th-and there are those people who, ah, they’re not just mad for a couple of hours; they’re mad for, like, 10 years, or something. It, it, you know, just, and I think that’s that toxicity that you were talking about earlier. People have gotten to a place of anger, even in sport, which is supposed to be for enjoyment, and I, and maybe that’s because the money has become so big and the stage is so big now, but,
WT: I, I just think it’s like, I mean, it’s interesting, I mean, you… I, I mean, sports fans are nuts, and it’s sort of funny most of the time. I mean, like, you know, you should, I get, I get hilarious emails.
CM: I bet you do!
[laughter]
ER: You know, I, I was
CM: We, we do, too, but probably different kind of emails.
WT: Aw, I mean, some of these are just, like, wow, like, you need to go to therapy. Right now.
[laughter]
ER: The, you know, I, I was, uh, I did my graduate in, ah, in Durham, North Carolina, for, ah, with, with Duke,
WT: Yep.
ER: and ah, and, you know, the Duke-Carolina rivalry, there’s a, there’s a difference in a rivalry based on two teams having top-end success, versus sometimes a rivalry um,
WT: Oh, yeah
ER: ah, that, where they’re, where you’re playing for that sixth win to get to a bowl game.
CM: I just want everybody, everybody out there, to know that, uh, Eddie, doesn’t want to be known as an Ole Miss fan. He kinda just wants to be known as a Duke,
ER: [big ol’ sigh]
CM: a Duke fan. And that’s really what this is about right now.
ER: Right, I grew up, my, my dad was a pharmacist, and on Saturdays he sponsored the local Ole Miss broadcast in Ackerman, Mississippi. And so we would listen to it until about the third quarter, when Dad would come storming out of the pharmacy to the back room where the radio was, and he would turn off the radio. We’d spend the rest of the day in silence. Uh.
WT: Well, well there you go. Wonder how you ended up in this profession?
ER: [laughing] Exactly.
CM: Sp-speaking, I wanna dig in a little bit more to the, a, that Duke-North Carolina rivalry, but from the other side. I think, what, what, what’s your, why is, what’s going on with the Jordan thing right now? What’s your read on that? Your article was really interesting, as it, you kind of pushed through the ego stuff and the anger, and you know, just kind of the big character. At the heart of that, that I saw, was, eh, I don’t know, eh, I felt like your read on it was, he’s struggling with his, his own mortality, almost.
WT: Well, and just with, like, what do you do when you used to be Michael Jordan?
CM: Yeah.
WT: I mean, like, you know, he’s remarkably self-aware in a way that a lot of very famous, very wealthy people aren’t, because, it, which makes me think he’s done a lot of work about just how to be happy. Ah. You know people don’t realize this, uh, Michael grew up really country. Like, really country, like riding horses, running from pigs, you know. He and his brother shooting each other with BB guns, I mean, his, like, they didn’t live in Wilming—his family isn’t from Wilmington, they’re from the country outside of Wilmington. I mean, his family is from Tutwiler or Sumner.
CM: Right.
WT: Like, like, that, so he’s often misread in that way, and, you know military family, his dad… I talked to Roy Williams a couple days ago, and Roy was saying that he was going to play golf in Wilmington, a couple years ago, and was driving from Chapel Hill alone, and just sort of on a whim, pulled off of, uh, uh, I-40 and just drove over to Gordon Road to the house where Michael grew up, lived for this whole life ’til he, uh, signed with the Bulls, uh, and, you know, it’s where Roy recruited him. And I was like, “well, what did you remember?” And Roy said, “I just remember Mr. Jordan always out in the driveway working on something. Like a car up on blocks. And Michael told me, like, his dad, you know, if his dad couldn’t figure out how to do something, he’d read a book. Uh. Once when Michael was in the NBA, his pipes froze at his Chicago condo, and, ah, he was going to the All-Star game and was hiring people to fix it, ‘cause that’s what you do when you’re worth millions of dollars.
ER: Right.
WT: And his dad was like, ‘That’s stupid.’ And his dad went to Chicago, ripped out all the walls, replaced all the pipes, redid the walls, re-sheet-rocked, repainted. And when Michael got home from the All-Star Game is was all done.” But, like, that’s where he comes from.
CM: Right.
ER: And you see that
WT: I think people don’t realize that.
CM: Right.
ER: The documentary, that early episode where they really talked about his family, I think did a good job of, not, not revealing all of that, but, just the anchor that his family is, when he, he didn’t wanna go talk to Nike, and his mom said, “No. You’re gonna get on the plane because you agreed to go talk to Nike. And you’re gonna go talk to Nike.”
WT: Oh, yeah. You know his mom calls his dad “Mr. Jordan?”
ER: Wow.
WT: You know, it’s just, it’s just real, they’re just real country.
CM: Yeah.
WT: Uh
CM: There’s a, there’s a clip from, I don’t know, late 80s, early 90s, probably 90s, uh, on Oprah Winfrey that I saw going around Twitter. It was, Oprah was asking about, you know, do you give money to homeless folks that you see on the street, and it’s Jordan and Charles Barkley, and I just think its interesting the way in which, you know, you know Charles comes, comes from, you know, meager means as well. It’s just really interesting the, the different way, basically, Jordan said, “No,” don’t, you know, I mean, that, you both see kind of the desire to get away from that, that upbringing and also kind of the work, the hard, hardworking, you know father in the background, like, don’t, don’t give a handout.
WT: Oh, I know
CM: Barkley was like, yeah, man, I give it all the, it’s like, you know, like I,
[WT/CM talk over each other]
WT: ‘cause both of them are really rural and country. Ah, and uh, you know, Jordan became so famous, that it was almost like he wasn’t from anywhere.
ER: Right. He was ours.
WT: Yeah, you, it was sort of like, he was just emerged fully formed, and that just isn’t true.
CM: Yeah, but that’s, I, that, I think, so there’s Jordan, and then there’s the way we perceive him and the way that
WT: Oh, there’s, there’s a huge difference between Mike Jordan and Michael Jordan. I mean, like, you know, his high school year book says Mike Jordan. I mean, he didn’t become Michael ’til he became famous.
CM: Right.
WT: I mean, you know, put it this way: Michael Jordan is very v…very very aware Mike Jordan from 46, 47 Gordon Road, Wilmington, North Carolina, is dead and that Michael “Air” Jordan killed him.
ER, CM: Mmm.
CM: Yeah, I want, another dimension of that piece, I mean, ah, I feel like Nike does this, but it’s not just Nike, I mean it’s, it’s the entertainment-sports-industrial complex that is American culture, that, that creates these lar-that, I mean, idols, really, I mean, it’s just, I don’t mean that in the, in the negative sense
WT: No, no, no, no. No, but I know what you
CM: yeah, it’s like it creates this thing, and then you’ve gotta live up to that thing that’s been created about you. I can’t imagine what it’s like to bear that image, but I
WT: Well, and it’s true, it’s, it’s, and it’s pervasive. I mean, it’s, you know, it’s like the John Updike quote, “the mask eats the face.” I mean, everybody… there, there is a difference between who you are at home and who you are in the world. I mean, one of the, to me one of the real dangerous things about social media and the reason I’m not on any of it is, I, politics stops at the water’s edge, and the outside world needs to stop at the door of that house. And, like, otherwise it’s not a house. It, do you know what I mean? Like
ER: Right. The world has just become all
WT: Yeah
ER: all-invasive.
WT: Yeah, like I don’t, you know, my ultimate dream is to be unreachable.
ER: [chuckles] That, you know, you, you talk about, the, you know, creating these idols, and it, it happens now, you, can you imagine Jordan in today’s world being recruited out of high school?Wha-the sensation he would, he woulda been Zion Williamson, I mean, he would’ve been, you know, some of, something like that coming out and how would… I talked to a, a football coach several years ago now, and he said, that, that the change in, in recruits now is so dramatic because of social media, because of you know, Huddle, and these other places, that coming out of high school, you have kids that aren’t just kids coming to play football or basketball anymore. You got kids, f-f, who have created that mask already.
WT: Well, and it’s, it’s interesting, too, because, they, they’ve also, they had a long catch-up period, but they’ve basically done it, where, you know, for so long, coaches could be casual with other human beings’ dreams, you know. You could go lie to 9 kids, knowing one of ‘em’s gonna work out, and the other 8, just throw ‘em in the gutter. And, the kids, through the internet, through a lot of different things, through the escalating coaching salaries, which sort of makes everyone step up and say, “well, if the coach is getting 6 million dollars a year, maybe my mom should be able to keep her lights on.”that, I mean I think it has created a culture that is starting to level the playing field, because, I mean for a long time, you know, you know, ah, Johnny Vaught could go get 9 quarterbacks. And you know, one of ‘em’s Archie Manning and the other 8 just end up in the gutter.
ER: He didn’t want, he didn’t want anybody else to get ‘em. He didn’t want them to go to
WT: Yeah
ER: Alabama or Mississippi State
WT: Naw
ER: or LSU
WT: So these guys were, you know, building their own dreams by being casual with other people’s. And so, I mean, some of it, is, is a necessary evening of the see-saw. But no, you’re, the degree to which, I mean, a phone is a television camera. I mean, I’ve done TV hits for ESPN now on my phone. And so, like, people’s awareness of how to curate their online selves has led to an awareness of how to curate an image, which has led to people who are much more savvy about, about all of that stuff. I mean it’s really interesting, the degree of, of, of, savviness.
CM: Yeah, I think that, I, I tend to think of it in the other direction, not as creating a kind of an, an accountability, but it is there because the, the opportunity for things to just completely blow up. Um, ah, there’s a, there’s a book several years ago that I read that was, it's, it’s more of the political science end of the spectrum. Hugh Heckler has a book called On Thinking Institutionally, but he, he begins with a sports example. And he, he just talks about how sports used to be a place where, where, you know, people went to form and shape character, um, and over the course of time, sports are a place, they’re, they’re just platforms for celebrity. Um, I mean, the classic example of somebody like Cal Ripken or Ryne Sandberg, who just would play the game for the good of the game itself, you know, like, I, I gave myself to this thing, to this group of people, and then, over against somebody like Barry Bonds, or, you know… and, and not to use, you know, I mean there’s, there’s a racial dimension there that I think is worth having a conversation about, but just the ways in which, um, sports are, um, either shapers and molders of character, or they are, you know, just a platform for me to, to get mine. How do you, how do you think about that? I mean I get, I guess, as, through this conversation, it sounds like you see both of those things happening at the same time.
WT: Yeah, and also, I think that, I don't think sports change, I think we change. I think they’re relatively static. Like, I don’t think there’s that much difference between how, what Barry Bonds wanted from his celebrity and what Babe Ruth wanted. And I don’t think that there’s that much difference between Mickey Mantle and Zion. Like, I, I, I think what happens is we project things onto sports. I mean, like, like, Vince Lombardi was a really liberal Democrat, which, which shocks people. Because Vince Lombardi has been turned into an avatar for a kind of America that Vince Lombardi exhibited many traits of, but, like, you know, we tend to erase anything that is currently inconvenient for what we need the avatar to be at the moment. That’s why when people are always like, “Well, history will judge,” I’m like, “really? Will it?” I mean, it, history’s constantly changing, and so. I mean, we, I do a tv show with John T. Edge called “True South,” and, uh, we were in New Orleans, and it was shocking to me to find out that the French Quarter isn’t French. I mean, it’s Italian. And that all of the, a lot of the French building, French architecture down there is modern. I mean, there are Macaroni Factories that now look, now have mansard roofs. And so, like, history is constantly being written and rewritten to serve some present-tense purpose. And, I think that’s true in politics. I think that’s true in, ah, certainly in sports. I mean, it becomes an interesting, the way in which, anything you want, any belief you have about anything that you want to see validated, you could always find it validated in sports, which is part of their appeal, probably.
CM: Yeah, I would, I, I think each of, each sport kind of operates differently in this, I mean going,
WT: Yeah.
CM: I mean you mentioned football, um, and I think football, both college and professional football, has, you know, a unique relationship. I guess, how do you think the relationship between football and national politics and patriotism, because it does seem like that’s the moment in the game when the tribes, you know,
ER: Take their sides
CM: Yeah, they, they, they kinda check the, check their hatred for one another at the door while we watch the flyover. Um, how do you think about the relationship between, I guess, patriotism, nationalism, you-policitcs, and sports?
WT: I mean, I think it’s different all over the world. I mean, you know, I think, uh, I mean, certainly, you know, national soccer/football is hugely politicized. Uh, probably, it, way more politicized than it is in the United States. I mean.
CM: Yeah, FIFA’s a mess
WT: Uh, yeah. I mean, uh, US has been so commercialized that it’s almost impossible for it to acquire that real grassroots, ah, political meaning, like the way that, sort of, uh, uh, far-left communists or far-right fascists, ah, basically street gangs in Italy, ah, are all centered around supporters groups for Italian soccer clubs. Like, American sports are such big business and so commercialized, that it feels like something like that isn’t possible,
CM: Mmhm.
WT: do you know what I mean? Where all of a sudden, like,
CM: Yeah
WT: Pittsburgh Stealers fans are, that’s just a code word for neo-Nazis, or, you know, uh, uh, or whatever. I mean, so that doesn’t feel really possible. I do think there is a real, you know, uh, I mean, football feels real Trumpy in a way that feels new, uh, and I actually wonder how much of that… I mean I wonder if in that are the seeds of football’s demise as the national sport, uh, I mean… you know, I’m doing this thing right now, this podcast about horse racing. And it’s just shocking to learn that, I mean, in the 1950s, horse racing was way bigger than pro football. And was as big or bigger than pro football is now. I mean, there was a match race between the horses that finished first and second in the 1955 Kentucky Derby. There were only 32 million television sets at the time in America, and 50 million people watched it.
CM: That’s wild.
WT: The population was 150 million. 50 million people watched it. Like, 19 million people watched the Game of Thrones finale.
CM: Right.
WT: And, like that’s what we’re talking about. Like
CM: Yeah, I’m
WT: 19 million, yeah, 19 million people watched, uh, watched Tiger King, and about, I don’t know, 15-16 million so far have watched Jordan, so roughly, if you want to think about cultural impact, a one-off, Wednesday match race horse race between Nashua & Swaps did a television audience roughly the same of the finale of Game of Thrones, Tiger King, and the Jordan doc combined.
ER: Combined.
CM: Yeah, I remember, um, years ago, so I played, I played, ah, soccer was my sport in high school, and, um, I was very small time, small, small time college soccer player, but, I, I love, ah, I mean the place where I feel the most patri-patriotic, you know, in terms of, like, I, some people really love, ahm, I’m thinking in terms of sports,
WT: Yeah
CM: um, some people love the Dream Team, or they love the Olympics or whatever. For me, it’s, it’s, ah, it’s the US National Team, Women’s Team for sure, but the Men’s Team, I, I remember, um, Bill Simmons
WT: Belgium
CM: go ahead.
WT: No, -ddude, I mean, that, the World Cup, two World Cups ago
CM: Yeah
WT: was incredible. Where like, they, at the Lyric they played USA-Belgium,
ER: Yep. I remember that.
WT: that was a fabulous day.
CM: Yeah.
WT: That was like,
CM: Yeah, it’s like everything kinda came together for a moment, um. I remember Bill Simmons talking about going down to see, going to Mexico City to see
WT: oh, Estadio Azteca
CM: Yeah, exactly
WT: I remember that story.
CM: Yeah, that was such a great story, but it was one of, he was reflecting on some of these dimensions, that, the commercialization of American sports create, creates a situation where we can’t have that kind of, like, all, all-out national support of your team over against some other team. um. And he was just, it was, he said it was a wild, wild, ah, experience, but I always go back to that as like the preeminent example in recent history of, of that kind of thing.
WT: I mean, I’ve seen Indian-Pakistan play cricket, two or three times, and, twice, and it’s bonkers.
ER: I’m gonna need to go read those articles that you wrote about that. I’ve never been a cricket guy, not sure I would understand it, but I’m, I, you know, I’m gonna need
WT: It’s NUTS. I mean, think Auburn-Alabama, if they had fought four wars since 1945
[laughter]
WT: and had nuclear missiles aimed at each other.
[Chris laughter]
WT: I mean it makes our rivalries look silly.
CM: So, so come back to the, because you, you mentioned this, ah, a good bit earlier, about, kind of the intersection of religious, ah, devotion and, and, an, cut it, cut it in that direction. We’ve been talking a little bit about sports and politics. What about, what about sports and religion? Where, where’s the overlap there? Um, or what, what makes, what, why is, why do people, I guess, come, coalesce around a team in a kind of tribal way that feels religious?
WT: [sighs] I mean, I’ve thought about this a lot. I mean, some of it I just wonder if human beings are innately tribal and we don’t have tribes anymore, and people are gonna find a tribe, and unless you give ‘em one, they’re gonna make up their own. But I, I also, I mean, these are, these are, it’s a good question, I mean when you’re talking about your favorite sports team, if you’re talking about Ole Miss football, really what you’re talking about is, you’re talking about family and you’re talking about home. I mean, I, there was this Dolly Parton podcast that I listened to, and in there they said, I didn’t realize this, the word “nostalgia” comes from the Greek words for “home” and “pain.”
ER: Mm.
WT: And that makes total sense to me.
ER: Yeah
WT: And so, I think that when you’re talking about eternal life and your'e talking about sort of the past and wages of sin and, you know, an afterlife where all the people you cared about will be there, you know, really you’re talking about home and family. And you’re talking about a way for your home and family to not, you know, to not perish but have everlasting life. And, like, there is a sense for me that a sporting event that you really care about, when done right, feels like a communion. I mean, like, you know, I have, I have many times been in our sort of setup, ah, at the Grove—or we’re over by the Circle now, which I think is super ninja,
[laughter]
WT: And, uh, uh
ER: We’re still in the Grove, but con-contemplating a move.
WT. Dude. We are over by the James Meredith statue, like, behind the Lyceum, and it’s the greatest thing in the world.
ER: It’s gotta be back there, ‘cause it’s crazy where we are.
WT: it’s unbelievable. Naw, there are, like, picnic tables, and we have open space, and the kids run around, it’s really great. And so, uh, uh, I find myself, I find it harder and harder to go into the game. Yh, but like, I have multiple times sort of thought about family members who weren’t there, and said, you know, “we do this in remembrance of you.”And it, it, when it works right it is a communion.
ER: Well, you’re gathering around the feast table, I mean, that’s one of our, one of our
WT: Yeah, no, that 100%
ER: Yeah
WT: Yeah, yeah, no, it’s, it, it’s exactly that.
ER: You, you talk about nostalgia and, we’ve got a few more minutes, uh, the, the article you wrote sometime ago now, it’s been a while, The Ghosts of Mississippi, uh
WT: Yeah
ER: which became The Ghosts of Ole Miss, ah, for the 30 for 30. I mean, it really, um, was a piece that, when you wanna talk about family and pain, uh, I went to Ole Miss 1989-1993. You know how many times we talked about, ah, the riot and James Meredith in my four years at Ole Miss?
WT: Zero.
ER: Zero. It was hidden. It was forgotten. It was that thing that we put in the dark corner, not to ever be talked about again, and, and what that article and what that 30 for 30 did was really, it, it was sports, but it was also family and pain and kind of some truth telling, in order to, I think, bring freedom. I mean when I read that article, I was like, “Huh.” And my, my dad talked about it. He lived in Ackerman and he remembers people coming through, but it was really something.
WT: I mean, it, it, it’s interesting to me that, look, there are multiple schools of thought about this. I think that light and sunshine, you know,
ER: Disinfect.
WT: wounds heal best in the air, yeah, you know. And, uh, there’s a real danger when you push things underground, ‘cause you don’t know what they’re gonna look like when they come back up again. And, uh, you know, I mean a lot of this stuff that’s happened, I was frankly worried about doing that story, ‘cause you could see it coming. Uh, it, it is interesting the degree to which we, we [sigh] don’t wanna know. I mean, I, I
ER: We, we like to hide our sin.
WT: Yeah, and like, and we want uh, we want absolution without having to look inside and ask for it. Like, you know, there’s some interesting, you know… The idea of sort of not being beholden to the sins of the past is sort of like saying, well, “I don’t need to be baptized or find Christ, ‘cause I was born sinless.” I mean, it’s, you know, there’s a lot of analogy there to me. And, and, you know, I, everybody, uh, everybody does it in their own way, you know, that was not… That story wasn’t super popular in all corners of my family, which I knew going in. And I just sort of felt, like, “man, if I’m gonna do this professionally to other people, I better be willing to do it to myself.”
ER: Right. Well, and, and I think, y’know, I, I, I, I made my daughter read it when she was a freshman at Ole Miss this past, this past year, um, but there, there’s a better sense of telling the story, um, now, although I think there’s still some, some gaps in the storytelling, but it is painful for folks, whenever you bring up painful, disruptive history. And the truth of it.
WT: And it’s also not that long ago. You know, I mean, uh. And none of this is that long ago. I mean, one of my favorite weird facts that I remember from that story is that Ross Barnett was the son of a Confederate veteran. Like, there’s, like, we’re not, not even a generation away. And so, uh, you know, these, uh, we live in a weird, complex time in a weird, complex place, and I think that, ah, you know, there are some folks who have an urge to make sense of it, and there, ah, some folks who have an urge to sort of pretend like none of it happened. You know I feel like there needs to be some sort of happy medium, if we’re all gonna live together. I don’t know, it’s really… I don’t know. It’s a really difficult question.
ER: Well I think that telling the stories as honestly as we can, not to, not to undo or to cover, but it is, there’s healing in that, and I think that’s a good thing for us. Chris, what…
CM: Yeah, I wonder as you, you’ve kinda, I mean clearly you’ve had, you’ve had a measure of, of success, and you’ve honed your craft. As you think about both helping sports fans make sense of this moment and then also how do, how you wanna use the, the next chapter of your career, what, what are some of the things that you find yourself being drawn to right now?
WT: I mean I find myself wanting to exp-to really explore who we are, where we are, what we do, and why we do it. I mean, uh, uh, in some ways that’s revolutionary and in some ways it’s just what it’s always been. I mean, I’m really interested right now in what this looks like if it ends, you know. I mean, both in sports and in the world. I mean, you know, there’re some viruses, you know, they don’t have a vaccine for HIV, and now it rapidly mutates in the body in a way that this doesn’t. But like, you know, there are lots of viruses that we don’t ever come up with a vaccine for. And so, uh, you know, I’m just glad somebody is in a lab somewhere right now working while I’m talking about sports. I mean, really. I mean, it’s like, uh… I don’t know, I’m curious what we’re gonna look like on the other side of this. I think we all long for community. And, uh, I think that, either the rising national anger, which by the way I don’t put on one side or the other, I think there’s plenty to go around,
ER: Right. Absolutely.
WT: frankly, and, and, uh… to deny that there is not irrational anger and tribalism all over the place is to not look in the mirror. And the question is, do we emerge from this long, national pause, you know, hastened and chastened, or do we double down on that and burn ourselves up? And I think that we will, you know, find a lot of those answers in how we come back to sports once this ends.
ER: Well, thank you, Wright, for your time today. I really, really appreciate you spending a little time with us. For folks listening, make sure you pick up a copy of the book The Cost of These Dreams—a lot of great essays about the folks, ah, the folks that you’ve grown up hearing about knowing about, um, the moments that shaped a lot of our lives. So, Wright, thank you for your time.
CM: Thanks, man.
WT: Of course, anytime. Thanks, guys.
[Outro]
ER: Thank you for listening today. Go ahead and follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And go ahead and hit the “subscribe” button on whatever platform you use to listen to podcasts.
CM: This wouldn’t be possible without our partner, General Board of Higher Education and Ministry. We wanna thank also our producer, Cody Hickman. Follow us next week, we’ll be back with another episode of The Weight.