Talk:Better Place (company)

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Map[edit]

I'm surprised this is the first discussion topic posted here! I've made a couple of maps - which do people like best?

File:BetterPlace-map-circles.png

File:BetterPlace-map-numbers.png

On viewing the images at this size, the circles one is obviously clearer, but any other suggestions? -- Chuq (talk) 00:40, 4 December 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

It's clearer with the circles but I'm not convinced that a map is necessary or appropriate for this article. Dino246 (talk) 11:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Inappropriate aside[edit]

There is an excessively long statement in the introduction that is contained in parentheses. I was hoping to find a place lower in the article where that statement could be placed as a full sentence rather than an aside. I failed to find such a location. The statement, where it sits, is distracting and IMO, inappropriate. I'd appreciate help in coming up with a way to work it into a later section, perhaps one discussing charging stations and batteries. 184.237.118.85 (talk) 04:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

sunsurfer's massive recent additions[edit]

Please don't take this the wrong way but your recent additions are almost completely unacceptable. I'm guessing you haven't edited wiki much so rather than throwing a lot of jargon at you I'll have a go at wikifying it. I'd appreciate it if you waited til i was done before you have another go. Greglocock (talk) 22:55, 17 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I have also removed Sunsurfer's and Ffinder's recent additions of overly detailed cost analyses for specific vehicles. Such calculations are not suited for an informative article on the entire company and are borderline spammy. De728631 (talk) 21:51, 22 May 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

False sayings about energy sources[edit]

I've made some false-fact-cleanup in this area, putting a more balanced approach - the company WANTS to use only renewable energy, but in fact, at least in Israel, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Israel's grid is based on 99% fossil fuels according to a recent (2010) McKinzey's report (hebrew). There are future plans for changing that, but surely 2011 Better Place's cars would use fossil fuels only, and I bet that also 2012. I suspect that Better Place marketing tries to make the company look better through this wiki article, but they do it wrong, by saying untrue things. Mar Garina (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fast charging info removal[edit]

I've removed some highly dubious paragraphs that quote articles on Better Place (little more than rewritten press releases) on the dangers of fast charging. This is tantamount to letting the subject of the article explain what's wrong with its competitors' approach without identifying them. The material is even self-contradictory in the way it asserts that fast charging puts strain on the grid, then saying it's no big deal, then that "one blog" raises the concern anyway. Even without this material, the article is still too much of puff piece, in my opinion.

Fast charging may degrade the battery or even kill it so it should only by used in emergency situations.[1]
Also, fast charging puts high demands on the grid.[1]
For a sizable roadside station, the power used to slow-charge a number of EV batteries that have been swapped-out of motor cars will be the same, on average, as if the same total through-put of motor cars using that garage had, instead of battery-swapping, parked up for half an hour whilst their batteries were fast-charged. The fast-charge solution may involve minor additional fluctuations in the power taken by that garage around that average power level, but such fluctuations are unlikely to be of a size to trouble the local distribution network operator. Concerns around grid impact have however been raised on one blog.[2]
Even if future fast charging and car battery technologies enable fast charging at much greater speeds than today, and even if network constraints inhibiting much take-up of fast charging are overcome, Better Place may remain attractive since their business model of selling the car without the battery, lowers the upfront price of the cars cheaper than gasoline cars of similar size.[3]

--Tysto (talk) 19:50, 14 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sorry I reinstated that before you wrote this. The concern is real, even if that section needs work. I agree this article reads like a puff piece in general. Let's edit it rather than shredding it. Greglocock (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd suggest removing most of that. Just reference Charging station, which has better coverage of that subject. --John Nagle (talk) 06:50, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

References

  1. ^ a b Bertel Schmitt (2011-04-27). "Better Place Signs Contract In China". Retrieved 2011-04-28.
  2. ^ "To Charge or to Swap: That is the Question for EVs".
  3. ^ Leslie J. Allen (2009-12-21). "Better Place's plan: Sell inexpensive mid-sized EV". Retrieved 2011-05-20.

Much of the announced stuff didn't happen.[edit]

I was looking for followups on some of Better Place's announcements. In 2010, they were announcing lots of deals in Japan, China, Denmark, Israel, etc. Little has happened. Actual installations so far seem to be 12 power outlets (not battery swap stations) in Australia. The Japan 3-taxi demo has terminated. Israel just has a demo center. The China "joint venture agreement" doesn't seem to have produced anything. The Denmark "joint venture agreement" resulted in one demo battery switch station in Copenhagen. A few power outlets were installed in Hawaii. The hype in the 2006-2010 press releases far exceeds what they've actually delivered. The article needs to refer to Better Place PR as PR, and not assume that something they said was going to happen by some date actually did. --John Nagle (talk) 21:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)Reply[reply]

The CEO announced a couple of years ago that Better Place has ordered 100,000 cars from Renault. How many have really been ordered? And Delivered? --Sustainlogic (talk) 18:26, 16 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I agree, let's go through the article and remove every predicted event that did not happen, justification wp:crystalball. This article is not supposed to be a puff piece for better place. Greglocock (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Better Place site is still talking "real soon now". Their site says "Launch of the world's first electric car with a replaceable battery and associated charging infrastructure is approaching rapidly."[1]. This time, it's in Denmark. They've made similar announcement in previous years for Israel and Hawaii. None of them happened. There's nothing like a list of active battery swap stations. They have a few demo installations (which they call "switchable car experience centers")[2], but there's no indication, after five years of PR, that they have a functional non-demo battery swap station in use anywhere in the world. I noted some of this in the article. --John Nagle (talk) 16:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I clarified the distinction between a charging station (a power outlet) and a battery swap station. Here's Better Place's battery charging station in Israel[3]. It's a few power outlets next to parking spaces.
Better Place has raised $700 million. Where did it go? All I can find are some power outlets, a few demo facilities, and a dozen or so battery-powered Renaults. --John Nagle (talk) 22:04, 30 March 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Dubious tags[edit]

I've tagged stuff that is now checkable, specifically sales claims in israel, and start of commercial availability there and in denmark. All overblown predictions should be similarly tagged. I notice that this article has been heavily ref bombed using the failsafe "X claims Y" construction to get all sorts of absurdities in there. Greglocock (talk) 23:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"Launch" Section > Paragraph 2 > Last Sentence > Tense, Future or Past?[edit]

It reads: "Renault will offer electric models of existing vehicles, like the Mégane sedan, but at competitive prices that they claimed would be similar to gasoline models."

Is this sentence intended as being in the future tense of past tense?

- Jordan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.178.248 (talk) 05:31, 5 February 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Describing past announcements of vaporware for which the projected delivery date has passed strains the expressive capabilities of English tenses. This may be expressible in Latin, in which verbs have both aspect and tense. Let's break this into two sentences, rather than pushing the limits of advanced grammar. --John Nagle (talk) 06:19, 29 March 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Battery swap stations in Israel - real or vaporware.[edit]

I put a "fact" tag on "The first four battery switching stations began operating in Israel in May 2012". There are PR sources that say that, but even Better Place's own web site doesn't actually say where these stations are. There's at least one real battery swap station in Israel, opened March 2011.[4]. But I can't find any mention of the location of any other battery swap stations in Israel. --John Nagle (talk) 05:51, 29 June 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Removed line about four battery switching stations in Israel. This seems to be another instance of "real soon now" PR being reported as "actually happened." If there is more than one Better Place battery swap station in Israel, it's at an undisclosed location. Better Place's total worldwide infrastructure seems to consist of four demo centers worldwide (Israel, Denmark, Canada, and China) [5], some power outlets in a few cities and Hawaii, and about 100 delivered Renault cars.[6]. --John Nagle (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are pictures of battery swap stations in Israel at [7]. Some of them even look finished. So, finally, they're pouring concrete. Or their building contractor, the Baran Group, is. There's one driver report of a test visit to a battery swap station that I can find.[8] The station wasn't open to the public; it's still in test, as of May 2012. So this is still a Real Soon Now thing, not an operational thing. But at least it's not total vaporware. --John Nagle (talk) 07:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Recent edits[edit]

A bit more promotional material crept in, and I removed some of it. At least one electric car does seem to have been delivered to a paying customer in Israel. The status of the battery swap stations is still unclear. --John Nagle (talk) 06:47, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

We're starting to see sources about real battery swap stations in Israel. Try to find sources that don't come from Better Place PR. --John Nagle (talk) 18:38, 17 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The source [9] is questionable, per WP:RS. It's a blog by an anonymous party, and appears to be promotional. The story portrays the Better Place battery switch network as operational. But see [10] by the same author. There, he writes "I was driving a borrowed Better Place car because on Wednesday Renault had asked to have the car back to do a software upgrade to some part of the car that can’t be upgraded over the phone. They delivered another electric car to my office at 9am on a car transporter and took mine away.", "As we did I noted that the switch station I was heading for was not in service.", and "On Facebook I received a comment from Shai Agassi, founder of Better Place". It sounds like this writer received unusually extensive support from the company, and this system is still in the prototype testing phase. --John Nagle (talk) 16:57, 21 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Checked WP:RS. Writer also at pjmedia & greencarreports.com news sites, and miscellany. His writings on BetterPlace look well considered and consistent with all I've been able to compare elsewhere. He disavows any "conflict of interest" re BP other than admitting that his car enthusiast leanings caused his risky decision to be an early BP buyer, consequently accepting that public battery switch and charging spots are just barely beginning to come online. His "car transporter" and "reopened" comments (above) were actually part of a longer critique of BP customer service -- cynically saying BP and Agassi are unexpectedly for Israel, highly responsive to paying customers and especially to their "earliest adopters" group.
That specific blog entry was used to reference a map of battery switch station locations that I don't know how/if to get that highly informative map into the article.
Only ~250 BP Israel cars delivered thru Jun'12 including 100 to employees, so not many sources (yet). Agassi targeting ~1500 for '12. BP Israel spent ~$400million before July'12 Israel TV advertising campaign about sales open to public customers. Market will decide.
Sci2mike (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Added "Israel Subscription Model" and made corresponding changes in "DC fast charging" Sci2mike (talk) 05:54, 27 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Removed material from blog of "Brian of London". See WP:BLOGS. Someone publishing under a pseudonym is not an "established expert". For a better source, see the Jerusalem Post.[11] --John Nagle (talk) 17:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As of late August 2012, the article still reads 90% like promotional corporate material. Yours truly has been seriously interested in repatriating to Israel and enlisting to BP in 2008 when he's first heard the gospel from Agassi. But after hearing the arrogance a second time (50% of the Israeli car market by 2016, etc. etc., trash-talking everyone else from the Prius and beyond) the doubts have crept in, and by now I am a bonified BP skeptic. The same happy-talk I heard at their visitor center in 2010 is still the backbone of this Wikipedia entry. I stopped counting in how many places the future tense is used for events that were supposed to happen in 2010 or 2011. Even the Hebrew version (try and translate it via Google or otherwise) is less Kool-Aid.
At bottom line, most if not all of the immense monies raised by BP with huge government backing, have been bled. Only a couple hundred cars are out, and buyers are not flocking. Not only is the purchase price prohibitive even by Israeli standards (>120k NIS, that's >$30k), but the owners are bound into a monopolistic contract with BP that charges them some 0.55-0.65 NIS/km (that's 20-25 cents a mile), on top of subscription etc. Even though gas costs >2x in Israel compared with the US, the ride is actually cheaper on gas there - makes zero sense given that EVs are known to be far more efficient, and electricity is cheaper than gas in Israel.
No wonder the only "buyers" so far are BP employees and some of the ultra-rich who are not necessarily so worried about the environment as just like a new toy to play with. Where is all that in this Wiki entry? Without further ado, here's a link to a page in Israel's leading economic paper, "The Marker", with all recent articles about BP. Feel free to auto-translate and cross-post. http://www.themarker.com/misc/tags/1.3960. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.61.187.200 (talk) 06:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Haaretz has a new article: Is Better Place running out of juice before it hits the road?. Article gives financial numbers on Better Place losses: Better Place raised about $800 million in private capital, $477 million in cumulative losses, $64 million loss last quarter. Some of that is going into building the battery-swap stations in Israel, which does seem to be happening. Car sales are very low. About 500 cars have been delivered, including ones used by Better Place employees. We already have in the article that only 300 cars have been sold, which is consistent with that. Anyway, after years of hype, there are now some battery swap stations and some cars that use them. Now we get to see if this works as a business. --John Nagle (talk) 18:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Now that Better Place has some real charging stations and a few hundred cars on the road, I've moved that info up in the lede. Most of the old hype was moved down to the launch section. From now on, we should focus on what they're actually doing, rather than the PR. --John Nagle (talk) 21:04, 16 September 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Fast charge vs switch, Israel Customer Qual and Grid, add ext link, deliveries now, add map[edit]

Reverted John Nagle (talk) 06:43, 15 July 2012‎ Nagle (UTC) for following reasons:

  • Fast charge vs battery switch edit isn't Nov'11 "puff piece" of talk page and is factual and specific to Better Place business model -- deserving of local discussion here -- not just in charging station.
Removed exaggerated grid risk of fast charging in this section per elsewhere in Talk Sci2mike (talk) 15:10, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The added "Customer Qualification" and "Electric Grid" sections usefully describe Better Place's local roll-out criteria and the concerns of early adopter Israeli customers.
  • Since retail customer sales/deliveries have begun in Israel, then it is appropriate to remove as obsolete the "claims to develop" (in opening paragraph) and certain other future tense comments in the article and rearrange sentences within various paragraphs for clarity.
  • I'd like to add the following map about current and "end of 2012" battery swap stations in Israel, however I'm sufficiently newbie that I'd appreciate help/advice -- also I've not seen a comparable map in english, however OrangeCircles (current stations) vs GreyCircles (by end 2012) convey the relevant battery switch station info: [12]
Inserted above map as a reference to a revised paragraph (in the Israel section) Sci2mike (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sci2mike (talk) 08:57, 15 July 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Company in trouble[edit]

CEO resigned/fired, cash crunch, layoffs. An anon updated the article, and they weren't wrong. I just fixed some typos and put in citation templates. --John Nagle (talk) 07:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Article in the Financial Times.[13]. Agassi definitely out; company looking for more funding. "Better Place says it has 500 customers in Israel, 250 in Denmark, and another 70 in Australia". Also, apparently the company direction will change from battery swap to charging outlets. --John Nagle (talk) 16:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Criticism section[edit]

I think that the glowing positive nature of this article needs to be rebalanced. Either we add a criticism section to restore neutrality, or we start to take a distinctly jaundiced view of the company's many intentions and few positive outcomes. Greglocock (talk) 05:10, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Despite the bankruptcy, hype continues to appear in the press. "Why did the project fail? "Both the vision and the model were right, but, over the years, the company made several mistakes, which delayed things." - Better Place CEO, post-bankruptcy.[14]. There will probably be some good articles about what went wrong over the next month or two. --John Nagle (talk) 22:51, 4 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For the time being, I made several edits about the bankruptcy and hope they reflect a NPOV. I agree we have to wait until an objective analysis is published. Anyway, the article still needs a lot improvement to keep it based on RS and with a NPOV.--Mariordo (talk) 01:43, 5 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Better Place bankruptcy comments are starting to appear in the press. Jerusalem Post [15]: "Agassi’s management skills didn’t hold a candle to his skill as a salesman. The company’s business model was an incoherent study in overreach and hubris." Inside EVs [16]: "Liquidator told the Knesset Economic Affairs Committee today that it would stop operating its battery replacement stations and recharging points on June 13." The BetterPlace.com web site still shows no indication that the company has gone bust, other than a brief comment in the news section. John Nagle (talk) 19:32, 13 June 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Even the endgame is going badly. The second buyer to try to buy the remaining assets, Success Ventures, didn't have the money. Their check bounced.[17]. Article updated. There are now also lots of articles on why Better Place failed: EVworld[18] (generalities, no insight), Jewish Press [19] (blames Shimon Perez), Forbes [20] (more generalities), Jewish Telegraphic Agency[21] ("What he needed to do was focus on a small core success" ... "it was way overexpanded"), and Harvard Business Review[22] ("wasteful efforts to establish toeholds and run pilots in a slew of new geographies"). The consensus seems to be that Better Place had far too much company, locations, projects, and overhead for the number of cars on the road. Amusingly, the BetterPlace.com web site is still up as if nothing has gone wrong. John Nagle (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Israel Electric Company is about to turn off Better Place's remaining charging points.[23]. Nobody is paying the electric bill.John Nagle (talk) 18:40, 23 October 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Attempts to sell the company having failed, the receivers now plan to sell off the parts and liquidate.[24] The web site, "betterplace.com" has dropped out of DNS. [25] It's dead. John Nagle (talk) 20:02, 4 November 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Gnrgy bought the remaining assets of Better Place for only US$450,000. 55 used cars are being sold off. Some unsold new cars (at least the ones that didn't rust in storage) are being sold at a big discount. Gnrgy will keep the charging points, but not the battery swap stations.[26] A "tell all" book is being written by one of the investors.[27] That may provide info for an article update. John Nagle (talk) 19:35, 26 December 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As the final phase of liquidation, the leftover battery packs are now on sale.[28] John Nagle (talk) 18:59, 26 March 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

"battery-switching" VS "Battery swapping"[edit]

What is the correct naming? Is one of both a trademark and the other one the generic term?

Unfortunately I couldn't find any information online :-( I guess there is a wikipedia guidline how to handle different names for one thing. Currently the article Better Place uses "battery-switching" and Battery_swapping#Battery_swapping uses "Battery swapping".

Any help?

87.174.239.26 (talk) 12:21, 26 March 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Tesla is using the term "battery swap".[29] Tesla is opening a battery swap station in December. One station, between SF and LA, so Tesla owners can drive from SF<->LA. Tesla seems to think of this as an special service for crossing long distances, not the normal mode of recharge. John Nagle (talk) 23:10, 16 November 2014 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Checked archive pages. OK, except that archive.org didn't get the video; it's at [30] on Youtube. Also removed multiline quotes from citation templates because they now cause template errors. John Nagle (talk) 08:21, 22 January 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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Undid changes by anon.[edit]

Undid some uncited changes by an anon which tended to deemphaize the company's failure. This article has a long history of spin control problems, which seem to have survived the bankruptcy.[31] John Nagle (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yup, good call Greglocock (talk) 06:18, 19 March 2016 (UTC)Reply[reply]

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