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Old 20th April 2021, 08:44 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Except that thou and you coexisted for centuries depending on if one is talking to equals or inferiors.
I know that. Just has today vous and tu continue to be used in modern French. With vous bring formal and tu being informal. Much the way thou and you was used in England for centuries. Beginning in the later half of the 17th century thou began to disappear from everyday use in spoken English and you began to replace it in informal usage. by 1750 thou was confined to only certain parts of England and had acquired a very old fashioned archaic image in the public mind, and was no longer used very much. Instead you was used and it largely lost it's formally formal sense.
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Old 20th April 2021, 08:59 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
True, but in linguistics what they consider important is the structure,,,the basic framework of the language...and there is no doubt English structure is descended from the Germanic language.
English is basically a language with a German Framework but a hell of a lot of words from the Romance languages hanging on the framework.
The debate about how languages can be classified is rather complex. The bottom line is that English has lost a very large number of the gramarical features of German. For example along with masculine an feminine in German there is neuter. And German and French are fairly case ridden unlike English. And of course if you print a page of German and a page of French an average a English speaker will probably recognize more of the French words than German ones. And what linguists say is important in classifying language varies. Some do in fact emphasize vocabulary more.

I do agree that the basic framework of English can still be called Germanic, however the huge infusion of Latin and French into it ,in my opinion, make calling English a hybrid Germanic / Romance tongue partly true. Although I will not hold that as an absolute truth.
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Old 20th April 2021, 09:09 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
And of course if you print a page of German and a page of French an average a English speaker will probably recognize more of the French words than German ones.
I've read several times that that holds true for the written words, but that if an English-only speaker heard French and German being spoken they'd pick up more meaning from the German. The idea is that the sounds are closer between those two languages than they look.
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Old 21st April 2021, 11:14 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The 40% German descent is Crap,pure and simple.
It is what I read somewhere. Whatever. It is the largest ethnic group in the USA and twice that of the English. However, the English got there first, together with the Dutch, who lost an opportunity so English is the language spoken and it is firmly founded on Old English (Anglo Saxon).

Quote:
Germans have been immigrating in significant numbers to the U.S. since the 1680s, when they settled in New York and Pennsylvania. The bulk of German immigrants arrived in the mid-19th century; they've been the nation's predominant ethnic group since at least the 1980 census.
<snip>
The 49.8 million German-Americans are more than triple the 14.7 million Asians counted in the 2010 census. Bloomberg's county-by-county analysis broke down the Hispanic and Asian populations into subgroups by national origin, with Mexican-Americans and Chinese-Americans making up the largest share of their respective groups.
Americans of German descent top the list of U.S. ethnic groups, followed by Irish, 35.8 million; Mexican, 31.8 million; English, 27.4 million; and Italian, 17.6 million, the census shows.
Post Gazette

From Wiki

Quote:
Cities along the Great Lakes, the Ohio River, and the Mississippi and Missouri Rivers attracted a large German element. The Midwestern cities of Milwaukee, Cincinnati, St. Louis, Chicago were favored destinations of German immigrants. The Northern Kentucky and Louisville area along the Ohio River was also a favored destination. By 1900, the populations of the cities of Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Cincinnati were all more than 40% German American. Dubuque and Davenport, Iowa had even larger proportions, as did Omaha, Nebraska, where the proportion of German Americans was 57% in 1910.
Considering Anglo Saxon broke off from the Fresian (West German) language group about 1,500 years ago, it is not correct to say English speakers recognise German more than French (which is also an Indo-Europeam language(, and thus, better related. One or two words and phrase might sound familiar, but then so does French.

So kind of flattering to the English that the GOP wanted to adopt Anglo Saxon values.
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Last edited by Vixen; 21st April 2021 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 21st April 2021, 11:19 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Pacal View Post
I know that. Just has today vous and tu continue to be used in modern French. With vous bring formal and tu being informal. Much the way thou and you was used in England for centuries. Beginning in the later half of the 17th century thou began to disappear from everyday use in spoken English and you began to replace it in informal usage. by 1750 thou was confined to only certain parts of England and had acquired a very old fashioned archaic image in the public mind, and was no longer used very much. Instead you was used and it largely lost it's formally formal sense.
Small note: 'vous' is the plural 2nd person pronoun, and is used to be polite to others. It's somewhat fallen out of favour, unfortunately, with a lot of young people since the 90s.
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Old 21st April 2021, 11:28 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...

Post Gazette

....
That's from 2012. I'm curious if it still holds.
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Old 21st April 2021, 11:58 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That's from 2012. I'm curious if it still holds.
I'm more curious how the data can be "census data" since the census doesn't break down ethnicity into ancestral subgroups, or it hasn't for at least the last 40 years.
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Old 21st April 2021, 12:01 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I'm more curious how the data can be "census data" since the census doesn't break down ethnicity into ancestral subgroups, or it hasn't for at least the last 40 years.
"I'm standing outside a pub in Boston on St Patrick's days. Judging by this study literally everyone in America is Irish."
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Old 21st April 2021, 01:23 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is what I read somewhere.
It's the biggest lingerie section in all of Ireland. I read that...somewhere.
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Old 21st April 2021, 01:33 PM   #210
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It is what I read somewhere. Whatever. .
And there's the problem......
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Old 22nd April 2021, 06:45 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
As I recall, one burnt the cakes and the other was taken by surprise.
Sigh. That's not what "unready" meant.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 06:47 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
So... maybe French was once some sort of Lingua Franca?
Damn Franks.....
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Old 22nd April 2021, 06:48 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Sigh. That's not what "unready" meant.
<Sigh> Er, it was a joke...
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Old 22nd April 2021, 06:51 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you want to hear what Anglo Saxon sounded like, watch the exteneded Director's cut of "LOTR:The Two Towers".
In the funeral scene in Rohan, the lamant that Eowyn sings is in Anglo Saxon...nice tip of the hat to what Tolkien's dayjob was:Professor of Anglo Saxon at Oxford.
Quote:
Some of the higher samesteads are splitly. That is, when a neitherbit strikes the kernel of one�as, for a showdeal, ymirstuff-235�it bursts it into lesser kernels and free neitherbits; the latter can then split more ymirstuff-235. When this happens, weight shifts into work. It is not much of the whole, but nevertheless it is awesome.

With enought strength, lightweight unclefts can be made to togethermelt. In the Sun, through a row of strikings and lightrottings, four unclefts of waterstuff in this wise become one of sunstuff. Again, some weight is lost as work, and again this is greatly big when set beside the work gotten from a minglingish doing such as fire.

Today we wield both kinds of uncleftish doings in weapons, and kernelish splitting gives us heat and bernstoneness. We hope to do likewise with togethermelting, which would yield an unhemmed wellspring of work for mankindish goodgain. Soothly we live in mighty years.
....from 'Uncleftish Beholding'.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 07:05 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Wondering how this fits in with PragerU and Jordan Peterson calls for an embracing of their notions of Western values and a rallying against its perceived enemies.
Well Peterson is, in addition to being an idiot, a racist and proponent of "western civilisation".
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 12:17 PM   #216
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https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/

If you want to know the history of the language in depth, try this.

The guy producing it planned to do the whole thing in 100 installments. It has not worked out that way. His plan was:

25 episodes on the Indo-european origins.
25 on old English
25 on middle English
25 on modern English.

145 down and he is still in middle English. The rate of new episodes has slowed over time and they got longer.
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Old 22nd April 2021, 02:26 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Small note: 'vous' is the plural 2nd person pronoun, and is used to be polite to others. It's somewhat fallen out of favour, unfortunately, with a lot of young people since the 90s.

This would be the French equivalent of "y'all"?
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Old 22nd April 2021, 02:43 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/

If you want to know the history of the language in depth, try this.

The guy producing it planned to do the whole thing in 100 installments. It has not worked out that way. His plan was:

25 episodes on the Indo-european origins.
25 on old English
25 on middle English
25 on modern English.

145 down and he is still in middle English. The rate of new episodes has slowed over time and they got longer.
So he is going to take hundreds of years to go through the hundreds of years of the history of the English language?
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Old 22nd April 2021, 03:16 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This would be the French equivalent of "y'all"?
No. "Y'all" is singular. The plural is "all y'all".
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Old 23rd April 2021, 05:06 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No. "Y'all" is singular. The plural is "all y'all".
"Y'all" is plural, "all y'all" is emphatic plural.
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Old 23rd April 2021, 05:11 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
This would be the French equivalent of "y'all"?
No, that'd be "vous autres".
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Old 23rd April 2021, 05:43 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/

If you want to know the history of the language in depth, try this.

The guy producing it planned to do the whole thing in 100 installments. It has not worked out that way. His plan was:

25 episodes on the Indo-european origins.
25 on old English
25 on middle English
25 on modern English.

145 down and he is still in middle English. The rate of new episodes has slowed over time and they got longer.
Nice find. Thanks.
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Old 23rd April 2021, 10:23 AM   #223
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GovL4US0A-Y , Republicans need to get away from people like John Hagee. They've caused more losses than any one issue. The good thing is when they divorce them selves from the religious right they'll be in fine shape.
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Old 23rd April 2021, 01:52 PM   #224
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Old 23rd April 2021, 02:20 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So he is going to take hundreds of years to go through the hundreds of years of the history of the English language?
I would expect that to be comprehensive.
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Old 24th April 2021, 01:52 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
I would expect that to be comprehensive.
I'm onto episode 4 which is about the resurrection of dead languages, how sounds shift and how cognates are worked out. It's eye watering in its detail, and if its starting like this it'll run for a very long time.
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Old 24th April 2021, 05:53 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
So he is going to take hundreds of years to go through the hundreds of years of the history of the English language?


I suspect he will start speeding up as he gets closer to current times. Once dictionaries start showing up the subject will get less interesting.

He did some other material on the origin of the alphabet. I have not heard that, however. In the main podcast there was a section on letters that did not survive merger between northern and southern England writing systems merging. We really should have kept the letter "thorn".

The guy doing it is a lawyer from the US. Not much of an accent tracible to where he practices in South Carolina.
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Old 24th April 2021, 10:17 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
I suspect he will start speeding up as he gets closer to current times. Once dictionaries start showing up the subject will get less interesting.

He did some other material on the origin of the alphabet. I have not heard that, however. In the main podcast there was a section on letters that did not survive merger between northern and southern England writing systems merging. We really should have kept the letter "thorn".

The guy doing it is a lawyer from the US. Not much of an accent tracible to where he practices in South Carolina.
Ah yes, the poor thorn. The most mispronounced letter in English. And it�s not even in the modern alphabet!
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Old 24th April 2021, 10:22 AM   #229
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This OT tangent about Anglo-Saxon and the origins of English is much, much more interesting than the antics of a few stupid, ignorant Republican congress people.
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Old 24th April 2021, 03:27 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Doubt View Post
<snip>We really should have kept the letter "thorn".

<snip>

It was okay when most communication was verbal, but as written systems became more popular it was more problematic.

It wasn't the pain of handling the text, you see, but the blood stains on the pages.
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Old 25th April 2021, 07:15 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
This OT tangent about Anglo-Saxon and the origins of English is much, much more interesting than the antics of a few stupid, ignorant Republican congress people.
It does tie into other heated discussions here. From what I learned in the podcast it seems assigning genders to everyday objects mostly fell out of English because the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes had to be able to talk to each other. That led to old English getting simplified to get rid of some of the BS still found in other languages. The idea of gender = sex is not always seen in other languages because they still give genders to things that are not even alive.
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Old 25th April 2021, 07:16 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
It was okay when most communication was verbal, but as written systems became more popular it was more problematic.

It wasn't the pain of handling the text, you see, but the blood stains on the pages.
Worth a giggle but not quite LOL.
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Old 26th April 2021, 04:24 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
"Y'all" is plural, "all y'all" is emphatic plural.
Yet I've had an American from the south end of "Show Me" country say to me "y'all want to come have a lookitthis ", and I was the only person he was talking to.
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Old 26th April 2021, 04:29 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet I've had an American from the south end of "Show Me" country say to me "y'all want to come have a lookitthis ", and I was the only person he was talking to.
Yes, y�all is singular and plural, like they or moose. I also agree that all y�all is emphatic plural. I�m pretty sure it is only plural, but YMMV
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Old 26th April 2021, 09:31 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Yes, y�all is singular and plural, like they or moose. I also agree that all y�all is emphatic plural. I�m pretty sure it is only plural, but YMMV
"Y'all Mileage May Vary"?

Sorry.
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Old 26th April 2021, 09:52 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
"Y'all's Mileage May Vary"?

Sorry.
FIFY
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Old 26th April 2021, 03:56 PM   #237
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Y’all is one of my favorite terms. That, and ain’t. When we moved to Louisiana, my parents were adamant that we didn’t sound like southerners. One day in the car, my mum turned and yelled at me and my brother, “Ain’t ain’t a word!” We of course loved this.
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Old 26th April 2021, 04:17 PM   #238
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Originally Posted by gabeygoat View Post
Y�all is one of my favorite terms. That, and ain�t. When we moved to Louisiana, my parents were adamant that we didn�t sound like southerners. One day in the car, my mum turned and yelled at me and my brother, �Ain�t ain�t a word!� We of course loved this.

An interesting passage from Wiki on the subject;
Quote:
The usage of ain't in the southern United States is distinctive, however, in the continued usage of the word by well-educated, cultivated speakers.[48] Ain't is in common usage of educated Southerners.[49] In the South, the use of ain't can be used as a marker to separate cultured speakers from those who lack confidence in their social standing and thus avoid its use entirely.[50]
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Old 26th April 2021, 04:53 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
If you want to hear what Anglo Saxon sounded like, watch the exteneded Director's cut of "LOTR:The Two Towers".
In the funeral scene in Rohan, the lamant that Eowyn sings is in Anglo Saxon...nice tip of the hat to what Tolkien's dayjob was:Professor of Anglo Saxon at Oxford.
Or you can just go directly to the source...

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Old 26th April 2021, 05:24 PM   #240
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"Ain't" can be, of course, an affectation. I had a well educated co-worker who did that. So did Lord Peter Wimsey.
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