As a kid from a migrant family at school in Australia, Khanh Ong didn’t know what cricket was. But everyone else in his class seemed to know.
I didn't want to feel different. I didn't want to feel left out. So I was like, yeah, I understand. And then I'm still. I'm standing at the wicket, being like, okay, so if I hit this ball, do I run or do I not run? It was as simple as that. It's like, do I have to run? Do I not have to?
Join beloved celebrity chef and presenter Khanh Ong as he talks about the power of food, how it feels to hear “stop the boats” as a refugee family, and the process of coming out to his mum.
LISTEN TO
Khanh Ong: From refugee kid to household name
SBS Audio
11/03/202427:19
Hosted by Yumi Stynes, SEEN is a podcast series about the trailblazers who persist and succeed without positive role models in mainstream culture. You’ll hear from the likes of leading tech creative Tea Uglow, activist Tarang Chawla, academic and writer Dr Amy Thunig, and more as they share their stories of resilience and courage.
Follow SEEN on the SBS Audio website or app, Spotify and Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host: Yumi Stynes
Producers: Mandy Yuan, Laura Brierley Newton, Marcus Costello
Sound Design and Mix: Ravi Gupta
Executive Producer: Kate Montague
Theme Music: Yeo
Art: Evi O Studios
SBS Team: Caroline Gates, Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Micky Grossman
Original concept by: Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Transcript
Yumi STYNES (Voiceover): We start by acknowledging the Traditional Owners of the land on which we record, the Cammeraygal people and Gadigal people, and their Elders past and present.
(Theme music)
STYNES (Voiceover): If you watch locally made cooking TV shows, you’ll know celebrity chef Khanh Ong is a big deal. We start rolling tape the minute he enters the recording studio and even though this is the first time we’ve met, he’s very easy to talk to. And in moments he’s telling me about putting on Adele to listen to so he can have a cry in the bath and I start downloading about a bad experience I’d just had on a plane…
STYNES: Yeah, yeah. I had a panic attack on, last time I flew, yeah. And I've never had one about flying.
Khanh ONG: Is it not the scariest thing ever? The panic attacks?
STYNES: Oh, fucking hell, man. It's the worst.
ONG: You feel like you might actually die
STYNES: Yes.
ONG: Yes.
STYNES (Voiceover): And the thing that we shortcut to, before the interview has even officially started, is that as a migrant kid, it’s impossible to control the way you’re seen — and under that scrutiny you’re always afraid of doing things wrong.
ONG: I've only had two in my life and one of them, I was 17. I was in Laos on a school trip. I remember this moment because I tried to pour coconut into a glass and it was from a coconut because I wanted to eat the coconut… And it spilt everywhere and I was in this like little rural town restaurant and I just felt like I'm this Western person that's just come here and I've just made a mess. So I just broke, I just went (heavy breathing) and I just had the biggest panic attack.
STYNES: Oh, wow.
ONG: But it was always, always a way and it's when I feel like I'm being culturally not okay.
STYNES: Yeah right. You've got this pressure on you. That's all self imposed by the sounds of it.
ONG: Yeah!
STYNES (Voiceover): I'm Yumi Stynes and today on SEEN, we're going to explore the way even the most successful migrant kids have to fight to be seen on their own terms. And the fight isn’t just about societal expectations, it can be a fight with yourself.
We’re also going to see once again, how the expectations and pressures to be the ‘model minority’ as a refugee kid, means that it’s an even bigger fight to exist outside of that perfectly cast role. Because… who said you could be anything other than a doctor or a lawyer…?
(Music fades)
Even being a chef wasn’t considered an option. Nonetheless, Khanh Ong got his break on MasterChef.
STYNES: So tell me about moments in your life Khanh that have made you feel the most authentically seen?
ONG: There was a time where I had like a penny drop moment where I cooked up a chicken congee
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh is talking about a MasterChef cooking challenge, where contestants cook a dish inspired by a personal photo that they bring to the show.
ONG: It was a photo of me, my dad and my mum, the day that we were gonna come to Australia. And so it was like, I've got this little teddy bear backpack on, I'm in a suit, and we were supposed to cook something using that… so I cooked up a chicken congee, which is peasant food. It's like a whole chicken in a big pot of rice that lasts for a family of four like two, three meals if you wanted it to. And I was just howling, like, through the entire cook. I couldn't do interviews, I couldn't do anything, because I just remember going, like, this is so important to me, and I really want this dish to do well, because for me, it's comfort, but it's also heritage, and it's love, it's all of these things that food can show, but will they understand that?
(Gentle uplifting music)
And that day I won that challenge and I was howling again (laughs) when I was winning because I was like, something so simple that meant so much to me is finally being recognised and I felt at that moment that there'll be a lot of Vietnamese families seeing a cháo gà, which is, um, a chicken congee, on Australian television win a challenge against all these other dishes!
And I remember when I served it to the judges, I did the same way that I would at home where I was like, hey, I'm going to serve you guys because you're, you're elders. Like that's just what we would do. So that was a really, really important moment.
STYNES (Voiceover): It was a really important moment, because it was so much more than a dish from his past. It was a bid to be understood in a raw, exposed way. And for Khanh Ong, that understanding was communicated via food, linking modern Australia with the refugee story of life-endangering jeopardy, years of determination, detention and resilience that brought Khanh's family to Australia.
ONG: So, mum told me that what happens is you pay someone, you get on a boat, you sail towards Malaysia. The goal is to get caught, but in like, not Vietnamese waters. Because then that way you then get transported to a camp where you can work out where you're going to be sent if you're eligible to be a refugee for certain countries and things like that.
STYNES: Wow. And did your mum understand that four years in a refugee camp was on the cards?
ONG: They knew that they wouldn't be coming straight to Australia. It's literally, everyone's situation is different. It's anywhere between, six months to years and years and years.
But, I think for them it was, do we stay in Vietnam? Our future is totally unclear, or do we take this risk? We might die, but also the other option is that we get a really great life. We start fresh in a new country with more opportunities. And that's the option that they chose.
(Suspenseful music)
STYNES (Voiceover): When Khanh says "We might die..." he's not exaggerating. Before his parents were interned for years in an Indonesian refugee camp, where Khanh was eventually born, they took the fabled journey of Vietnamese “boat people”.
(SFX sounds of waves and boat engine)
ONG: Mum used to tell me about the boat being overcrowded, being in like waters that were dangerous, that were, like, stormy, like big waves, your ship breaking down. I think one of the engines broke down and dad had to go change a propeller. So he had to dive under the boat. Like they were attacked by pirates.
It's all of these things that we thi- I think it's not true. Cause I'm like, that can't be, you can’t- you didn't get attacked by pirates! And mom's like, no, two people died. We got attacked by pirates because pirates are a very real thing when you're a refugee. Why? Because you're leaving a country with all your most valuable belongings on you.
So, you're an easy target.
(Sounds fade)
STYNES: So what do you think when you see things like, “I stopped the boats” or “boat people go back”?
ONG: It's- it's a hard thing to see, right? Because that was me. Like, I literally was a boat person. And I feel as though the people who are trying to come here are looking for a better life. No one's gonna openly choose to be in these waters where they could die if they think that there was a better life at home for them.
So I think it's really hard. I find that like, if we got sent back, I wouldn't be here.
Right. I might not be alive because like my parents' life would be different, my life would be different. So I'm like really thankful that we were able to even come.
STYNES: What do you think is missing from the refugee narrative?
ONG: …Possibly humanity. Like, I think we're seeing people as numbers, we're seeing people as objects rather than as humans. And I think if we just put a little bit of humanity into that, I think arguments might change
STYNES: Tell me about growing up in Australia as a refugee kid.
ONG: I didn't think my life was different, not until my later teens. Like, like, I grew up in Springvale. Um, it's an area that's full of Vietnamese people. So there was a lot of people like me around that area. So I thought this was normal life.
STYNES (Voiceover): And it was a normal life. If you listen to last season’s episodes of this podcast, acclaimed artist Atong Atem grew up on the Central Coast thinking she was cute enough to be cast in Home and Away, completely part of the Aussie landscape, as did author Yasmin Abdel Magied.
Until the “culture” worked to convince them otherwise…
ONG: And then, um, when I went to high school, I went to Haileybury, which is a private school, um, in southeastern suburbs of Melbourne. Education is a massive thing to them and I think to a lot of migrant families, so they put a lot of hard work in to get me to a school that they thought was really good for me. Um, so I went to Haileybury and things changed. There was, like, more money. Um, the cars were different that people were getting picked up in. The food was different. Like, it was like little things that I never noticed until high school. One thing that sticks in my mind, which I don't think a lot of people would even understand because like you grow up watching it or seeing it on TV — cricket?! I grew up in Springvale, which means that I wasn't watching cricket. I wasn't playing cricket.
STYNES: No one was watching cricket (laughs) in Springvale. Right?
(Sounds of school playground)
ONG: So I, I- I remember in year seven, they're like, okay, for PE today, we're playing cricket and everyone was like, cheering. And I was like, I have no idea what this game is.
Um, and I didn't want to feel different. I didn't want to feel left out. So I was like, yeah, I understand. And then I, I'm standing at the wicket, like, being like, okay, so if I hit this ball, do I run or do I not run? It was as simple as that. It's like, do I have to run? Do I not have to?
STYNES: Yeah, just spell it out for me.
ONG: Like, what happens in this situation? Like, really simple things.
And then the second time was, um, when we were playing AFL, and I was like, yeah, cool. Get the ball, get the goal, little tackles, fine, no above head, no issues. No one told me I can't throw the ball! It's little things like that that aren't really explained to you because it's implied knowledge. Like it's something that like, everyone just expects kids to know, but I'm like, well, I don't know this because this isn't what I grew up with right?
STYNES (Voiceover): Kids pick things up quickly, and will take on the local culture when out and about, then slip it off at the front door to home like a dusty pair of shoes.
What is it like, then, to run around outside on the Aussie school playground, then come inside to your parents’ home culture?
(Gentle music)
The stereotype is that Asian parents are not demonstrative, nor verbal, with their love.
ONG: I grew up like understanding the Vietnamese way of parenting.
They were strict. They weren't scary. Like they would never, it's not like an abusive relationship or anything like that, but they were strict. They had like, you know, you got to listen to your elders. You got to be respectful. You need to greet everyone. I think it's just, it's love languages, right?
Dad never said that. Like he's not, he's not talking about it. He's not telling me that. I don't think Vietnamese parents even say, I think I find it really hard to even say to my mom, I love you. I'm more like, I'm going to buy you things or I'm going to give you things. That's how we showed love. And that's how I think I was brought up to show love. Um, dad was always, you know, like I would ask for something. He'll be like, no. And then two days later, it'll be there. Like that's the kind of person he was where it would just be like, he pretended to have a really strong, hard, outer shell, but he was massive softie.
STYNES: They listened.
ONG: Yeah. Mum and dad, they learnt about how Australia is as a society, as a country very quickly. Their way of parenting changed to go with what I was going through, because I did go to a very, very open school.
So I would be like, you know, “This happens here, that happens there”. So they were learning as I was learning. I watched them change a lot. The more, kind of like, the more that they lived in the country, basically.
STYNES: That's really interesting because a lot of migrant kids, their parents are frozen in amber because they brought over these really old school politics. And then at home, everybody's evolved and progressed, but they've just kept everything as they remember it from when they moved.
ONG: I was a DJ for eight years of my life and mum never… didn't have a problem with it, but she never understood it.
She was like, I don't understand how your job is to press buttons and like dance, and have a vodka lime soda,
STYNES: And go, woo! (Laughs)
ONG: Yea, she never understood that.
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh’s parents’ love language was providing — and that meant working really hard. Early on, Khanh's dad worked for a butcher, and eventually opened his own butcher shop, which became a series of butcher shops. Khanh's mum was part of the business, and Khanh himself worked there every school holiday.
(Solemn music)
ONG: Dad did everything that he could to kind of make sure that our family was in a place where we were comfortable. So much so that like dad had, um, dad had Hep B that became liver cancer.
He knew about Hep B for ages. Didn't really get it looked after, didn't get it treated, because he wanted to work, he wanted to build up the family business, to the point where he, when he learned that he had liver cancer, we didn't know about it for a year after, because he then continued to want to work.
STYNES: So he didn't tell you for a whole year?
ONG: Yeah he didn't tell us for a whole year, until he got to, I think it's stage four, where it was like, the end, basically, and that's when, I knew, I think mum, mum even only knew like a month or so before that. He kept that a secret from everyone cause he didn't want to take away from the business.
He was like, if I'm going to die, I need to make sure that you guys are set up so that, like, your world doesn't fall apart because I'm gone. That's the kind of person he is. So that's why I was like, I know. That he cared a lot.
(Music fades)
At the time, I didn't react to it. I didn't do anything. I went to school the next day. It was the most, like, it was just another day to me, even though, like, I literally was in the lounge room when my dad passed away on the couch.
And then I've full had a meltdown, like a year later.
(Sounds of car engine)
I was sitting in the car with mom and she was talking about potentially having a new friend in her life that was male, a year after. And I literally said, I don't want to talk about this.
Um, I don't want to talk about this. This went on for about three or four minutes where I just kept going, I don't want to talk about this. I just don't want to. She continued to talk about it. So we were rolling to a red light and I opened the door and rolled out of the car and then had to walk home for like two kilometres (laughs).
(Funky music starts and fades)
STYNES: Oh Khanh.
ONG: We didn't talk about really anything going on in her life for a while after that, cause I like, that was probably the worst way to react to that conversation is like, literally leave the conversation, try and kill yourself. Like roll out of a moving car just to get out of the conversation.
That was horrible… for my mother, especially, like, looking back, it's one of the worst things that I could have done, and our relationship really took a turn around that moment. It was my last schooling year, so it was like nine months left of schooling, of high school, and I remember I was, 100 percent going to move overseas because I just wanted to get away from my mother.
I didn't want to be around her. I didn't want to be like, but she hadn't done anything wrong. It was just like the way that I was grieving — that I hadn't grieved.
So I was like, how, how dare you a year later, think about having a normal life.
STYNES: And love, and that sort of stuff…
ONG: Yeah. And like, just, you know, move on, even though like you've lost the love of your life and you have the right to move on now. Um, how dare you?
(Gentle music)
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh wasn’t seeing his Mum. And at the same time he was unseen by his Mum: he was gay, but not out to her.
And, he was grieving.
Khanh applied a revolutionary coping mechanism:
(Music fades)
Yep, he ran away.
He applied to fashion school in London, far away from his family. And during this time, Khanh barely spoke to his mum.
ONG: Hi's and byes, that kind of vibe. Really, really closed off.
STYNES (Voiceover): Turns out - London was not for Khanh.
ONG: Uh, I was in London for about 9 months when I figured out that I hated being in London.
It's grey, and no one smiles at you, and I just hated it. So I came back to Australia and I apologised to my mum because I realised that, like, I was a brat and what I did was not okay. And I remember sitting down and just being like, hey, it's okay for you to have friends-slash-date. Like I don't have the right to tell you not to do that, and I think it's actually really unfair that I even went down that route.
STYNES (Voiceover): The bruising experience of London was humbling enough that Khanh did some growing up.
(Gentle music)
He came back ready to rebuild his relationship with his mum. And that included facing the terror and potential ostracism - of coming out to her.
ONG: I don't think being gay was really a thing for mum's generation especially in Vietnam or even in like her friendship group and being a refugee, a Vietnamese refugee, they have this thing in the community where everyone is very, very competitive with their children. And it's like, my child got into this school, my child did this. And it's like, I didn't want to be the — “My child's gay”.
There was this thing sitting in the back of my mind where I just didn't want to disappoint my mother.
Because like, she's gone through so much with everything in her life. And I just didn't want to be that disappointment.
And I was so scared, so nervous about it because you're like, you're keeping this in for so long.
And you think about all the things that could happen and you always go — worst scenario. What you're hoping for, but here's the worst. There is no best. There is no like, cool, mum's gonna throw a party. It's either she's chill with it, or I get disowned.
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh didn't know what to expect but he was ready.
ONG: When I came back, I apologised and that's when I really did go, Okay, I need to be truthful to my mother now. So that's when I came out.
(Music fades)
She then turns to me and goes, we need to send you back to Vietnam. And in my mind, I was like, conversion therapy, wants me to like, be straight. She goes, you know, a lot of people in show business over there, are, part of LGBTQIA plus community.
We can make you famous in Vietnam. And I was like, did you just kind of throw a party? But also, what the fuck mom?
STYNES: She's great! Let's milk our little gay boy! You're gonna be a money maker!
ONG: I know.
STYNES: That's so good.
ONG: Look, I think she, she would've seen all the signs. She would've like realised that I'm super creative as well, that like, I, I could, was obviously gonna end up doing something in show or in media or something. So she really kind of thought that it wasn't like a — you're gay, make you a pop star. I don't think that was her train of thought.
STYNES: She got the context. Yeah.
STYNES (Voiceover): In a previous life, Khanh Ong worked as a DJ. And it was baffling to his family, who couldn’t understand why their son, who was educated, and clever and charming and charismatic, wasn’t on the migrant son pathway toward being a doctor, lawyer or gosh, at the very least, an accountant.
ONG: She never understood my tattoos. She never understood the clothes that I wore, any of that, until I went on Masterchef. The day that I went on Masterchef and she saw it on TV, she goes, “I get it”.
(Cheerful gentle music)
Because for her, she would watch these people on uh Vietnamese television, and their kind of, like, personalities and stuff, right? And she was like, I never understood that this was who you were. Like, you're... You're destined to be a personality. Like this was like, you didn't have to conform with any of the other things that I thought was normal.
She understood it all once she took me out of like being a good Vietnamese son and put me into like this own little space where I have my own career.
STYNES (Voiceover): All at once, Khanh was seen in completeness by the person who mattered most.
It took the full technicolour, unfiltered TV version of Gorgeous Gay Khanh to finally help his mum see all he could be.
(Music fades)
STYNES: What does she think of you now?
ONG: She's my biggest fan. She's annoyingly so. I love her for it. But like, we'll go to Springvale and she literally, I'll be like, hey, let's go get some fish.
And she'll take me to 15 fish shops because she wants to parade me around. Which is the sweetest thing. But sometimes I'm like, okay, I need to go get this thing. She's like, okay, cool. Can we do the lap of that? I'm like, we're not doing any laps. I need to go to that shop and buy that thing and come back.
This is not going to be a 45 minute exercise where you talk to everyone about me coming home for the night.
STYNES: Aww.
ONG: My mother is the best. She's very, very proud because she, I think in her mind, she's like, my son is on TV. I've won.
STYNES: My mum used to love it when I was on TV. She’d text everybody - turn on the TV!
ONG: Oh babe, she literally has a photo of me in some of her stores. Like, just like there in my MasterChef apron doing this. I'm like, can you upgrade the photo? Because I look a lot better now than I did back then.
STYNES (Voiceover): It's funny to me that Khanh’s mum understood who he could be because she had seen people like him on Vietnamese TV decades before. But Khanh grew up on a diet of Australian culture and Australian TV.
STYNES: So tell me about having role models growing up as a queer Asian man. Was there anybody that you saw that looked like you, like, whether in real life or in media?
ONG: I, I- not that I remember, you're like, tell me about them, I was like I can't (laughs). Cause I don't really know any of them, I don't. You know, the only person that I really remember- he's not queer, but I just remember going, Huey's got a really cool life.
STYNES: Who?
ONG: Huey's Cooking Adventures. (Laughs)
STYNES: The chef? (Laughs)
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh's talking about celebrity chef Iain 'Huey' Hewitson. A jolly straight white man who always seemed to be gasping for breath. Huey's been around forever but he's not queer... or Asian, and his food seems to be for people who drive winnebagos and know the rules to cricket.
So Huey's the only person that comes to mind when Khanh's trying to think of queer... Asian... role models...?
ONG: That wasn't, that's not the person, (laughs) but I just do remember being like. This man's got a really cool life and he's always talking about olive oil and he's always by some seaside town on a wharf cooking calamari. Like this is sick. (Laughs) But I don't know, there weren't any queer role models. Like later on… I think it was like early 2000s when we had people that were queer.
STYNES: Mm
ONG: Our society then wasn't really celebrating them, it was, they were there as a token funny thing…
And I think that's changed a lot. I feel as though that like, it's really great that it has changed so much that, um, people who are queer are being celebrated. But like, I didn't really see that at all in my late teens to early 20s.
STYNES (Voiceover): Khanh wants a world where queer kids don't grow up only seeing breathless white cooks on the TV. He wants them to see people who look like them — doing anything.
ONG: For me, it's more about like this next generation. They need to be able to see that you can do whatever you want. You can be whatever you want. And. Just, it's okay. It's fine. My nails have flames on them, like my hair is pink, but I still have roles where I'm super corporate and it's fine. It's a new world where you shouldn't be judged for the way you look, the way you act or the way you speak.
I thought that I had to act a certain way for ages, and I did that for like the first half of the season of Masterchef, where the way that I spoke, the way that I interacted with the judges was very much contained.
It was gay, but it was “appropriate” gay, what I thought was appropriate gay.
STYNES: Right.
ONG: Whereas now I'm like... This is just me.
STYNES: Just be bigger gay? Is that what you mean?
ONG: Just like, you know, like, don't be flamboyant. Be the perfect gay man. Don't be a caricature of, like, a gay man. I'm like, but I'm not. This is just how I am. Like, I get excited whenever I see a dog, I smile. When I get sad, I cry. Don't judge me for crying just because I'm sad. If I'm emotional, I'm allowed to be emotional. It's not weak. It's strength.
STYNES (Voiceover): If you can picture that young guy opening the door of a moving car to escape a painful conversation… and line him up against this guy, it truly is a wonder how much growth can be crammed into one lifetime.
ONG: Growing up, I really wanted to be what my parents would respect or what my parents wanted. All through high school, I was going to be a surgeon, reconstructive plastics. Like it was like something that was like this kind of negotiation that like my parents and I had. They were like, we want you to do medicine or be a lawyer. And I was like, I can be a surgeon. And I can do reconstructive surgery because I like that. That sounds important to make someone feel good about themselves.
And then slowly, the more that I came out of my shell, the more that I experimented with what I loved, what I like doing, the more that I thought that I could do certain things, but then I never actually thought that I could be a cook. I think that there's this idea that being, you can't make a career out of food unless you're a chef. As in like, you have to work in a, uh, a restaurant. You need to work in a restaurant for 60 hours a week and be upset and yell at people.
STYNES: Yep, and have no family that like you.
ONG: Yeah, and I'm like, that's not what I want to be either.
So like, the life that I currently have was never a life that I thought that I would have. I don't think the jobs that I currently have I thought would be jobs that I could have, like, you would see people on TV, you know, doing like, cooking and travelling, and I'm like, that's one person out of like… maybe a billion people that get that job.
That's not for me. Like, there is no me there.
Um, so I'm really, really appreciative that I kind of get to do that with my life and it makes me so happy. Like, I'm like, waking up in Vietnam, okay? And going down and eating like a bún bò huế or something like that and being able to talk about it and being able to film it and then share it.
(Theme music)
It's the coolest thing… I still think it's the best job in the world.
STYNES (Voiceover): Now, a young Khanh out there can turn on the TV, and see someone just like him — a queer Vietnamese man hosting a cooking show, having a cool life and talking about olive oil in idyllic locations.
ONG: And I'm just really, really happy that like, there are kids growing up now that can kind of see that that is a possibility. More and more that like kids are being more exposed to this world where they have bigger opportunities because they're seeing people of all different shapes, sizes, skin colors, like minorities just doing what they love and really enjoying it and making a living off it, which is fucking beautiful.
STYNES (Voiceover): This has been SEEN. If you found Khanh as funny and delightful as I did, make sure you like and share this episode, and don’t forget to follow because the upcoming stories are just as excellent.
This podcast is hosted by me, Yumi Stynes, produced by Audiocraft in collaboration with SBS.
From Audiocraft, Season 2 of SEEN was produced by Mandy Yuan and Laura Brierley Newton. Sound design and mix is done by Ravi Gupta, and Executive Producer is Kate Montague.
The SBS team are Caroline Gates, Joel Supple, Max Gosford and Micky Grossman.
Our podcast artwork is created by Evi-O Studios.
And music is by Yeo.
SEEN's original concept was by Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn.
(Theme music fades)
