Talk:Gandy dancer/Archives/2017

Gandy Shovel Company

I have done a lot of research on the term gandy dancer and have never heard of the Chicago based company referred to as the Gandy Shovel Company. It is always referred to as the Gandy Manufacturing Company, or the Gandy Tool Company. Using the following as a source I am going to change "shovel" to "manufacturing".

[QUOTE] The tool was seemingly called a gandy, but where the name came from is a mystery. It would seem it was based on some bit of railway slang now lost to us. The idea that it referred to a Chicago business named the Gandy Manufacturing Company—which supposedly supplied a variety of tools to railway workers—seems to rest on a reference in a book called Railroad Avenue by Freeman H Hubbard, published in 1945. Several people have searched for this business, but have failed to find any trace of it in railway trade journals or Chicago city directories of the period. However, a number of otherwise reputable works continue to give this as the source. [END QUOTE]

Incidently many sources currently state, wrongly it would seem, that the tool was used to tamp the ballast (rock bed) between the ties - a good example of misinformation being quoted and re-quoted till evently accurate information can be forever lost. I feel that this example shows how important the work of Wikipedia is.

Gandydancer 13:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, responding to an old comment here, but i think the question is still open and relevant.

Legend puts the company in Chicago, and some sources refer to the 1800s. Others may observe that the term "gandy dancer" is first traceable to 1918, so perhaps the company in question was manufacturing after 1900.

NOTE: There is a clear reference to "Gandy Dancer" (term in quotes and capitalized) in the August 1, 1912 issue of The Contractor (vol. XVI no. 3) with the implication that the term is well-established among railroad linemen at that time.2600:387:2:811:0:0:0:99 (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

In The American Mercury, June 1935 is an article by Charles Wolverton on "Mysteries of the Carnival Language" in which he notes George Borrow, the English author, used the term 'gandy dancer' in a description of 'early nineteenth-century street fairs'. However, the definition used, "grifter who sells novelties", doesn't appear to relate directly to use of the term for track maintenance.2600:387:2:811:0:0:0:99 (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

There is a reference to a Gandy Manufacturing Company (also referred to as a manufacturing plant) that was sold off in 1894 by Gandy Belting Company, but that's probably a false lead, since it doesn't appear to be anywhere close to Illinois.

The Gandy System is a method of power-transmission belt construction, originally English, with an American subsidiary located in Baltimore, Maryland USA. It has nothing to do with railroad track-maintenance tools, and very likely not with the 'slang' expression.2600:387:2:811:0:0:0:99 (talk) 21:00, 21 February 2017 (UTC)

Yet apparently no one has found any confirmation of such a company in Chicago records. There may be a reason no one can find such records, nor even a "Gandy" stamped tool in a railroad museum. What if "Gandy" is the wrong word to search for?

More specifically, some have suggested that "Gandy" may be a corruption of the company's actual name. I think a great possible candidate put forth by a couple of people is "G and D". If you say "G and D" out loud, it sounds very similar to the formulation, "Gandy". Easy to imagine how the simpler name was popularized, if this is so.

So, could it be G & D Tool, G & D Manufacturing, or something similar? Searchers ought to explore variations not just on the name, but also the location.

For example, there is a city near Chicago called Streator. Notice that it has been "a coal producer, a major glass manufacturer and a railroad hub." If we do a search for various names for this phantom company, we may come across the 1906 Biennial report of the Secretary of State of the state of Illinois, which lists the G. and D. Manufacturing Company of Streator as licensed, and with capital stock of $12,000.

We can see that G. and D. sold farm equipment — specifically, wind mills made of steel — in 1910, and they made portable elevators for farmers in 1947. So they were undoubtedly manufacturing in 1918, by which time the term "gandy dancer" had become more widely known.

Did G & D manufacture railroad tools as well as wind mills, washing machines, and elevators for farmers? I don't know. Seems as possible as other theories, and we can easily prove that this particular company really did exist.

More research is needed... Richard Myers (talk) 04:36, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, it certainly should be addressed in the article...I guess?  :) Each year that passes we lose more and more information...forever. Even back when I made that entry in 2006 there was still info on the web and now there is almost nothing. If it were not for the Gandy Dancer documentary we'd not even be aware that there ever even was a controversy.

I tend to believe that the speculation about waddling goose-like movements is not correct. For one thing, carrying rails was only a very small part of the work - most of the day was spent lining and tamping, and pulling out rotten ties and spiking in new ones to a lesser extent. Furthermore, I would think that if it had to do with geese the term would have been "gander dancers". One forum that turned up in a google search had a post saying that s/he had learned as a kid that the term came from Gandhi! Another poster said he had used the tools and could vouch that they were from a Gandy manufacturing company...if I remember correctly. I'll see if I can find it. Here: http://www.metafilter.com/76465/Gandy-Dancers Anyway, Richard I am betting that you are on the right track (no pun intended) with your G & D, for instance, line (oh! another one!) of thinking. Gandydancer (talk) 14:30, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Richard, you write very well, perhaps you could put together some of this info and add it? BTW, I did find the woman that made the documentary on FaceBook and sent a note to her asking her to take a look at the article. The article has always claimed that the track went out of allignment on the curves and I am beginning to suspect that there is a lot more to it than that. I grew up just outside of Granite, Colorado and the tracks are nothing but curves, but I never saw section crews alligning the tracks. BTW, I am in the process of writing the Granite article and it seems that it is my fate to find interest in things for which little information is available.Gandydancer (talk) 14:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's the problem. We are interested in a solution via Original Research of primary sources, because we don't have any secondary sources that seem to be reliable. Yet Wikipedia (and all other encyclopedias) rely upon secondary sources as the most appropriate resources for articles:

Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources.

Also, the exploration that i've done in a couple of hours has been pretty tentative, and can be seen as conjecture at best. Strictly speaking, articles can include conjecture — but only if it reflects the uncertainty in an appropriate secondary source.

Therefore in my judgment, there isn't yet anything appropriate from these possible insights to add to the article. That's why i've put this information on the talk page. I will continue to explore, to see if there's more that we can use. Consider, someone may have already solved this question (where the term gandy dancer really came from) and published the info, but we may just not yet have discovered that source.

I live in Denver, but am not sure if i've ever been through Granite. Were the railroads in that vicinity narrow gauge? Richard Myers (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

It is my best guess that it never will be solved. But, to my great surprise (and certainly JOY) Maggie did respond to my facebook note. She said she will take a look at the article and I wrote back asking her to take a look at the discussion as well, if she has the interest. She spent many hours with those old gandy dancers and did a lot of research - perhaps she may add something regarding the term.

About the Granite railroad, I'm not yet sure. I am beginning to work on a historical sites section and I was wondering the same thing. I have emailed the BV historian, who was a classmate of mine. I'll go into more detail on your talk page. And, thanks for the photos for this article. Good work! Gandydancer (talk) 16:39, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

"Gandy dancer (US railway slang). A track surfaceman. From the motion of men using track tongs or claw bars supplied by the Gandy Manufacturing Co. of Chicago when carrying rails from stockpiles to the track formation." ~Jackson, Alan A. (2006). The Railway Dictionary, 4th ed., Sutton Publishing, Stroud. ISBN 0-7509-4218-5. --Bermicourt (talk) 08:43, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi, yes, thanks. The problem is, many of us who have explored the issue believe that the idea of "Gandy" tools coming from a "Gandy Manufacturing Company" (based in Chicago) could be sort of an urban legend that seems so universal, it is accepted without question. We put this together with other comments/observations that no such company (by that name) ever existed in Chicago, and we are left wondering whether even the books that report this are suspect. What we need to look for in such sources is a reference to some original document that verifies the existence of this company (or explicates some other source). Alternatively, discovering a railroad worker's tool in a museum somewhere that is actually stamped with the GANDY logo would help to set our doubts to rest. best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

Parallel discussion, here. Richard Myers (talk) 17:41, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Just had a chat with the librarian at the Colorado Railroad Museum. He says that he has heard the word "Gandy" came from a manufacturer of clothing worn by the workers. I told him that i hadn't heard that before. I inquired about the manufacture of tools, and he mentioned that a lot of the railroads had shops where they manufactured their own tools. Not sure, but this may cast some doubt on the whole concept of the name being derived from their tools. He added that the hand tools in current use are the same as they were a century ago (but of course much of the work has been automated). Richard Myers (talk) 19:19, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks to a tip, i'm exploring whether the term "gandy" comes from the Gaelic (Irish) word "cinnte", which can be translated as "certain". In other words, (Irish) track workers were certain to be on the job repairing the tracks, whether rain, shine, flood, or sickness. Richard Myers (talk) 17:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I found a railroad stop or milestone in Alabama that was called Gandy, in a railway journal from around 1900. No idea if it is significant, and it was just mentioned in providing distance from one point to another. Didn't explore further. Richard Myers (talk) 10:30, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

A man by the name of William M. Gandy was the managing editor of a publication called The Making Of America. The 1906 publication had a number of chapters about the railroad, including discussion of maintenance of the way, pages 378-380. The book was produced in Chicago. Just a possibility... Richard Myers (talk) 10:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

A 1982 source, Cahners, Modern railroads, Volumes 37-38, 1982 mentions a Gandy Tool Company which apparently made a "permanent handle for striking tools." I haven't yet found anything more on this. Richard Myers (talk) 18:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Another source, Paul Oliver, The story of the blues, UPNE, 1998, says on page 12 that "The gandy-dancers' tools were made by John Gandy." Richard Myers (talk) 18:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gandy, Nebraska apparently was a railroad stop. Richard Myers (talk) 18:54, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The Gandy Belting Company of Baltimore was well known in the early 1900s. A company with a nearly identical name existed in London in 1898. One person theorized that such industrial belts were used to transport ballast to the gandy dancers, who thereby derived their name. This is speculative; it seems more likely that ballast was delivered to the work site in hoppers. However, if distribution on site might have used an early belted machine, this seems a possible avenue of exploration. AND, as i've previously mentioned, the Gandy Belting Company owned a facility referred to in one source as the Gandy Manufacturing Company. Richard Myers (talk) 19:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

In 1875, Maurice Gandy of Liverpool (county of Lancaster) applied for a patent related to the fitting of "tyres" onto railway rolling stock. This is probably a dead end, as far as the term gandy dancer is concerned. Richard Myers (talk) 19:41, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gandy Wagon Corporation of Oyster Bay, New York apparently created a turntable jack to turn rail cars around. Railway signaling and communications, Volume 53, Simmons-Boardman Pub. Corp., 1960. I have very incomplete information on this. Richard Myers (talk) 20:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a modern Gandy Tool Company in Ponte Vedra, Florida. I had initially dismissed them, unable to discover a railway connection. But now i have discovered them listed, apparently as a resource, in The Pocket list of railroad officials, Volume 87, Issue 2, National Railway Publication Co., 1981. Not sure of any possible relevance. (So many possibilities!) Richard Myers (talk) 20:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Another possibility that i've run across several times: George Gandy, a railroad trolley magnate in Philadelphia and in Florida. Richard Myers (talk) 20:45, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

This machine has been referred to as the Nordberg Gandy Tie Puller: [1]

If it indeed dates from the 1940s, then it isn't likely an appropriate source. However, the web page claims, "...it is marked as a Nordberg Model A-K, and was either sold or designed by the Gandy Tool Co. Both were well known suppliers of m.o.w. [maintenance of way] equipment to U.S. railroads, but are “fallen flags” of that industry..." Another reference, here: [2] suggests to me that a company making automated railway equipment in the 1940s/50s/60s may have taken the gandy name, but may have no connection to the (mythical?) original gandy company. Richard Myers (talk) 20:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gandy Tie and Timber Company is a sawmill located at 39228 Highway 171 in Florien, LA. How long has it existed? If it goes way back, one can just imagine workers "dancing" on the Gandy railroad ties, ehh? Richard Myers (talk) 22:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

In 1916 or earlier, Rodney S. Gandy of Vineland, New Jersey apparently filed for a patent on a metallic railway tie and fastener. Richard Myers (talk) 22:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Gandy indeed was a manufacturer of railroad-related tools and machines. Mr. Myers should be commended for turning up several references to it, notably the above regarding the Norberg tie-crane found here: http://www.prrh.org/photos/crane/index.html.

Below is a link to a collection of some thirty Norberg Railway Track Maintenance Machinery catalogs/bulletins referencing a company by the Gandy name (my bolding intratext):

954-59 Nordberg Railway Track Maint. Machinery Catalg

Sold For: or Sign In to see Price Data.

Sold Date:08/09/2007 Channel:Online Auction Source: eBay

This is a group of over thirty Norberg Railway Track Maintenance Machinery catalogs/bulletins. Norberg Bulletins range from 1954 through 1959 under the following titles: Trak-Surfacer; Tamping Power Jack; Midget Surfacer; Gang Tamper; Trak-Liner; Line Indicator; Trak Sweeper; Hydraulic Power Jack; Mechanical Spike Puller; Hydraulic Propelled Mechanical Spike Puller; Power Wrench; Ballast Router; Self-Propelled Model CZ Adzer; Portable Precision Grinder; Dun-Rite Gaging Machine & Bronco; Bronco Mechanical Propulsion; Tie Drill; Spike Hammer; Model CD Power Rail Drill; Hydraulic Spike Puller & Carriage; Gandy; Gandy-Snapper & Snapper; Spike Hammer; Surf-Rail Grinder; DSL Yard Cleaner; Track Shifter.

Cover Bulletin is a master catalog featuring all the different Norberg machinery with a small description - this is followed by individual bulletins for each piece of Norberg machinery with great detail, many photos, line drawn illustrations, along with descriptive text.

Bulletins are in very good condition. Delivery confirmation receipt included with mailing within U.S.

Also, a link to a ruling by the United States Court of Appeals Seventh Circuit on a lawsuit between the NORDBERG MANUFACTURING CO. (plaintiff) and JACKSON VIBRATORS, INC. (defendant) on the claim by Norberg of Jackson infringing on its business selling machines for railroad tasks bearing the name of Gandy. As follows:

1. Action for infringement of a patent.1 McCormick, the patentee, and Nordberg, a licensee, are plaintiffs. The district court found the claims in issue valid, and that defendant Jackson, by reason of sale of its Gandy Dancer and Servo Chief machines induce the railroads who purchase them to infringe the method claims and an apparatus claim....

and

9. The Jackson machines. The Gandy Dancer and Servo Chief combine a selfpropelled tamper with devices for raising the rails to the desired elevation before tamping. The Gandy Dancer tamper pushes ahead of it a track jack mounted on a carriage.

Here: http://openjurist.org/393/f2d/192/nordberg-manufacturing-co-v-jackson-vibrators-inc

Further, here is a link to a vintage 1954 Nordberg Gandy Dancer Railroad Tie Remover Manual for sale at ebay (hthttp://compare.ebay.com/like/360209941642?var=vl&sort=BestMatch), complete with a photograph of a piece of railroad machinery entitled "Gandy as tie inserter" showing the item in use: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?VISuperSize&item=360209941642

Not only was Gandy a manufacturer of railroad related tools; moreover, Gandy dancers themselves attest to the etymology of the word. See the interview in the Hertzberg documentary trailer laying out so much in plain words: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=025QQwTwzdU Wikiuser100 (talk) 12:28, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Richard Myers and I are well aware of the Gandy Dancer machines from the 50's. Trouble is, the term had been in use long before that, and it is not surprising that by the 50's a manufacturer of mechanized machinery would take the name, in the same way that in the 80's and 90's a restaurant would take the name. As for the documentary, yes we are aware of that. However, it did not convince Holzberg and it does not convince me. Memory is a funny thing; it is not at all unusual to have false memories - we all do it. Since you have read this entire page you must have noticed that I have suggested it be included in the article. I planned to put it in if Richard Myers didn't. However, for now Richard seems to be coming up with tidbits of info from here and there and it has been my opinion that it is best to let him enter new information as he finds it. In time I will have some suggestions of my own, but for now I feel it best to let Richard continue to develop this section since he is the one that is doing all the research. My immediate reaction to your edit was to delete it. I still feel the same, but have decided to let Richard handle it since it is his work. Gandydancer (talk) 14:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I sent an email to the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians, inquiring about the mention of the Gandy Tool Company on their website. They responded with this:

"someone thinks that the crane could have been built by the Gandy Tool company, but nobody knows for sure. we haven't been able to prove or disprove ....."

I'll do some editing in a while. best wishes, Richard Myers (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

It seems quite evident to me that litigation in 1968 that merely refers to a product named for gandy dancing, which was first popularized under that name in 1917, is not proof that a company existed by that name in 1917. Indeed, with the proliferation of naming that popularizes the term (see discussion of a restaurant with that name elsewhere), it would be very surprising if railroad equipment for MOW had not been named for the phenomena.

I had previously explored the links offered here (including Gandy Snappers) and found nothing of interest. Add to that the fact that the Phillipsburg Rail Road Historians cannot prove or disprove, and i see no evidence whatsoever that can be asserted (in the above sources, or for that matter in any other sources that i have seen to date) to prove beyond doubt the existence of a Gandy Tool, Shovel, OR Manufacturing Company of Chicago from which 1917 section crews might have taken this name.

I still have some sources to check. But as it stands at this moment, there is no proof here whatsoever. I will revert. Richard Myers (talk) 21:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

The first published mention i've found of "gandy dancer" was in the Kansas City Star in 1917. I was curious if there might be a connection to the railroad built from Callaway to Gandy, Nebraska, which is northwest of Kansas City. The building of this track was initially attempted in 1901, but after some sort of failure involving Wade Construction Company of Omaha, it didn't get underway until 1911. The town of Gandy was named for Jim Gandy, investor and businessman, by his own request, in around 1885. I haven't yet established any connection to gandy dancing (if one exists), but the timing (1911 - 1917) and geographic area (Kansas - Nebraska) make this within the realm of possibility. Richard Myers (talk) 04:16, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Research breakthrough. Almost everyone who has explored this topic says Freeman H. Hubbard is the first known mention of Gandy Manufacturing Company in his 1945 book, Railroad avenue. I just put that info in a footnote, because it seemed to be the source of the phrase, "tamping bars, claw bars, picks, and shovels." But then i immediately wondered if that was true. I searched for the phrase rather than the company name, and found an earlier published example from 1940. It is called Railroad Magazine: [3]

It appears to provide an original source. Finally, something that can be verified (or not).

Update: Freeman H. Hubbard was research editor for Railroad Magazine in 1945. But the real information about Gandy Manufacturing Company, if it ever existed, may be hereabouts: [4]

Richard Myers (talk) 05:51, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

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