News and discussions relating to George R. R. Martin's "A Song of Ice and Fire" novels, his Westeros-based short stories, "Game of Thrones" and "House of the Dragon" TV series, and all things ASOIAF - but with particular emphasis on the written series.
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Title, basically. What makes them morally grey? GRRM said "even Hitler liked dogs" but Joffrey cut open a pregnant cat, so I'm not sure where they grey is.
Forgive if I have missed something, I've only seen the show and some lore videos.
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Did he say all his characters were grey or just that, in general, he writes grey characters? Because while Joffrey potentially has a little wiggle room due to still being a child, I never felt he was trying to make characters like Euron, the Mountain, or the Bloody Mummers grey.
I’m sure he meant in general, not as a strict rule he follows.
The Mountain was never intended to be grey. Kills his father, disfigures his brother, kills his servant and anyone else he wants.
Probably killed his sister too. A sister the Hound loved very much. A sister that he sees in Arya and Sansa as a protective older brother.
I think what he sees in Sansa isn’t as straightforward as being a protective older brother…
Arya, though, sure.
Hound secret Targ confirmed!
Is there any textual evidence for this sister-brother bond?
See, through the Hound's journey from Clash to Storm (from Sansa to Arya) it is pretty clear that the Hound feels protective towards the Stark girls, and has no sexual attraction towards either of them (Though I can't say the same for Sansa who clearly has some kinky attraction towards the Hound after a glitch in her memory where she thinks the Hound kissed her when he didn't). Hound doesn't feel like a fatherly figure, he's not responsible or gentle or even motivating, instead his constant bickering and arguments with the girls makes the brother-sister bond much more evident. He feels guilty for not being able save his sister from the Hound, and it is also after journeying with Arya that the Hound expresses a really strong desire the kill his brother, whose heinous deed is reminded to him by looking at Arya. You want more insight into this, there's a nice Preston Jacobs video on it though I don't remember which one.
It has been said that the Mountain has terrible migraines and has become addicted to milk of the poppy. Perhaps this is some attempt to make him more than just a monster. Many of his crimes were committed at a young age though, presumably before all these problems of his started. And his crimes are unforgivable. So yeah, he's not a gray character still. But it's interesting that GRRM put this extra bit of lore in, making Gregor... a teeny tiny bit more grey perhaps?
Robert Strong is literally a monster though!
I mean psychopathic killers are a real thing so why not throw a few into the mix for good measure right?
Fr tho Mountain would definitely be a serial killer or something if born today.
He probably would have been special forces or something like that so he could do it legally.
I thought his pain was related to his growth rate. Being tall has benefits, but there’s a point where it becomes detrimental. Near 8 feet is it. He’s probably been dealing with that pain for his whole life.
The migraine thing has me torn honestly. But if milk of the poppy only reduces the pain? Being in the armor/helmet, more than likely super hot inside, narrowing the light source, the motion riding a horse, and all the noise that goes with being a knight?
I do not understand how he is even able to move. I need blackout curtains to lay down even semi-comfortably. I get how it would make someone angry, it’s the follow-through that baffles me.
One of the reasons I don't write as much as I used to is because a rare condition called hemicrania continua mingled with trigeminal neuralgia.
I have a 15+ word essay in 'defense' of the Mountain that I have never published, and don't think I ever will without dramatic revision. But put simply, I don't think people who get occasional or even frequent headaches really know what constant head pain does to you.
I've had a headache literally every day for the past seven years. It's pretty insane.
But more precisely, there are few bits of lore scattered throughout the books and other materials that suggest milk of the poppy has at least some characteristics of a steroid, and it makes me wonder if perhaps the Mountain has worsened behavior because of hypercortisolism.
The whole piece is much larger than one or two little data points, but in general I think people who dismiss the Mountain as just a villain with the most meager trappings of characterization are missing the point. Charles Whitman comes to mind.
I do believe that the big difference between the Mountain and Euron/Joffrey/Ramsay is that they enjoy their lives. The Mountain just seems to hate about everything... except maybe feeding Vargo Hoat to himself.
edit: meant to say 15k+ word essay, lol
My dad is a migraine doc, I have migraines myself sometimes, though they’re usually defeated easily with meds. But I know a lot of the symptoms/tells/blahblah.
Mountain definitely has terrible, terrible, migraines and no meds to help aside from Milk of Poppy
I realize you probably meant "pages" but I just couldn't help but think "Wow, a whole 15 words?"
I'm so sorry that you suffer from that. I hope you find some way to get rid of those migraines (hopefully not milk of the poppy).
I would be interested to read your essay. 15 words shouldn't take too long to read. Haha but seriously, it sounds interesting.
Yes, but GRRM doesn't actually explore chronic pain as an issue. It's reduced to a single sentence.
Idk how you could use "migraines" as an excuse for smashing a babys head against a wall and then raping the mother with her childs brains still on her but ok. The Mountain is not morally gray, and an absolute monster migraines or otherwise.
oh cantuse my commiserations. My husband had trigeminal neuralgia. its very painful. And ive never even heard of your other problem, I'll have to check out what it is before I dare comment about it. OK it seems to be another rare headache condition. they do say you can control it and get relief with a certain drug. I do hope you are able to take this drug and it helps. Certainly I and many other people love your comments , they are some of the most insightful on ASOIAF reddit. Please feel better and I look forward to every comment you are able to make
I think it's supposed to be an indication of a tumor or something else making him act that way but it'll probably never be fully explained.
I will point out that for many people making a character a drug addict, even a medical drug addict does not count as making a character more grey
This. Also, I recall an interview where he was told how he makes powerful female characters but he said he also made weak ones ie Sansa in the first few books.
I think general speaking he likes to make real-politik and tragic characters. However, he is aware that some people are just psychopaths.
Mountain: suffers migraines which make his life a living hell and make it hard to think for him. Still extremely horrible but some room there maybe? Moreover he can't even die in peace with whatever Qyburn's doing to him.
Euron: A popular theory states he was one of Bloodraven's candidates who had visions similar to Bran but was discarded for some unknown reasons. Definitely enough to make someone go mad, trying to seek out the power/visions he once got a glimpse of. We also don't know mentally scarred someone can get due to the forced visions from bloodraven.
Moreover this grey things mainly refers to the POV characters I think.
B-b-b-but his migraines.
He has a mental illness, probably brain tumor
Most of his characters are grey in some fashion. All his characters are on the spectrum from selfless hero down to vile soulless monster. You’ve got the Mountain or Euron, but you’ve also got Brienne who is about as much of a perfect selfless hero as you can get while still being realistic. Almost everyone else falls in between these two extreme examples.
Ned is pretty much perfect too.
Literally to a fault.
True.
Aside of things like threatening Cat when he came home with a bastard and she dared to ask who the mother was...
He does end up betraying his values, though, which indirectly leads to his own death. He also has a dark past (unfair murder of Arthur Dayne together with Howland Reed). You can't just cherry pick some conversations and actions when judging a character. I'd say he's pretty grey from where I stand.
If that is the moral line for gray, you probably won't find a "good" character even in Harry Potter.
I'm mostly thinking of that feast before the Hands Tourney, when Robert and Cersei fought. Jeffrey went all weird and shutdown. That was a childhood trauma response.
It doesn't excuse his casual cruelty later on though. Not to me anyway.
I'll admit that my interpretation is somewhat skewed by the show in this regard. There's a moment when Joffrey is in the room when Robert is dying that Robert's talking to him and the actor played Joffrey really well, brought some humanity to the character with how upset he seemed at his father dying. It also helped make Joffrey's later defense of Robert's war victories to Tywin come less out of left field (although I do think it was show-only since I can't remember a similar scene in the books)
In general though, I do wonder if Joffrey could have been "fixed" (for lack of a better word) had things gone as Robert planned. In an AU where Ned does end up acting as regent (and either Joffrey is legit Robert's son or for some reason Ned can't reveal the truth), if Joffrey was shipped back to Winterfell or something and spent the 3-4 years until his majority being fostered there, could he have learned some empathy? The North isn't exactly warm & fuzzy but the Starks are generally morally upright people and they seemingly have close, personable ties with their bannermen (see: Ned inviting different people of all classes to eat with Starks, Ned being "the Ned" to the mountain clans which indicates moreso that they personally follow him and his vs some vague concept of a Stark overlord, and the Reeds swearing by "hearth and heart" in their vow of allegiance to Bran, which sometimes I try to imagine a bannerman swearing "heart" to, like, Tywin Lannister and the difference becomes pretty clear)
The books did have a similar scene. Said his father was winning while tywin hid. He was then sent to his room.
I don't think a few years was enough. It took ten to partially soften Theon and Ned started at ten. Jeffrey was already thirteen, without a severe dislike of abusive elder brothers.
Sorry, that was worded ambiguously- I meant I don't think the books had a similar scene with a dying Robert talking to Joffrey.
Probably not, the harm against animals (particularly at such a young age as when he killed the pregnant cat) is pretty damning.
Yeah this is what annoys me about when people bring this up. Just because GRRM likes writing gray characters, that doesn’t mean every single character IS gray.
I think the really important thing is that even with the pure evil characters, he gives you some idea of what motivates them, even if it’s not a particularly good motivation in the eyes of the average person.
Yep, just because he likes writing morally grey characters it doesn't mean every single character has to be morally grey. There's a diverse spectrum and GRRM has some characters on the extremes of each end, as well as plenty at various different points in between.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was mainly referring to the POV characters too when he said that, rather than all his characters.
Joffrey is the way he is because his father is a drunk idiot who ignores him and his mother gives him whatever he wants. Hes a piece of shit but hes also a spoiled child given way too much power.
The Mountain, Euron, and the Bloody Mummers are just motherfuckers through and through though
The thing is "grey characters" are absolutely the default for main characters in virtually any work of fiction.
I'm wondering if perhaps it was less common when GRRM was originally writing the series in the late 80s/early 90s. Or perhaps he was thinking about the common comparison between his characters and those of like Tolkien.
Denethor, Boromir and to an extent, Smeagol, are pretty grey characters in Tolkiens works.
Same with Feanor, Turin + others if you're looking into his broader works.
I'd consider only Boromir and maaaaaybe Smeagol main characters, and even then I don't know that I'd consider them grey. Smeagol was literally under the influence of evil magic and Boromir is still just heroic to me, given that his desire for the ring was for the protection of Gondor (and again, that the specific pull to the ring is influenced by evil magic)
This is a fair observation to make for a lot of more modern stories, but not true as a whole.
Is it, though? The Iliad, one of the oldest works of fiction, is about the reconciliation between two enemies who recognize that war has gained them nothing and only stolen loved ones from them.
What classic literature would you say doesn't have "grey characters"? And, of course, what would you define as grey?
Idk anywhere near enough to debate you on classic lit my friend. You'll notice I didn't bring up classic lit aswell, because classic lit is not representative of fiction as a whole. Literature alone isn't even representative of fiction as a whole.
Joff is also in the 17th line of incest where someone is crazy evil. Not even a nature vs nurture debate
Yet the equally inbred Myrcella and Tommen are perfectly normal children.
Its the coinflip
The coin flip is in reference to Targaryens, not just inbred people in general.
While the mountain for example isn't particularly grey, he does give his madness some reasoning in that he has constant and severe pains likely stemming from his gigantism and him drinking massive amounts milk of poppy to counteract that.
So he's A drugged out of his mind and B his pain could be coming from something like a tumor in his head that causes him to become a violent sociopath which is something that can (and did) happen in real life and would therefore,.under our legal understanding not make him fully responsible for his actions.
Though In case of the real murderer who had a tumor like that scientist couldn't confirm if the tumor was indeed the cause for his murderous tendencies or not
Bullshit. Stop pulling excuses out of your ass trying to play apologetics for rapists.
You know what's NOT great for headaches? (the canonical reason for his pain) Women screaming as you rape them.
Also, in cases where a tumor caused the issue- there was a personality change subsequent to the development of the tumor. Gregor has always been a sadistic piece of shit.
Headaches are the canonical cause of his pain, this is just stupid on a whole other level. Of course the source of his pain is PAIN, I just never specified where he felt it.
Also this isn't an excuse but just a possible explanation for them as even the masters haven't come up with a source for it and just dope him up.
Also I obviously never excused his horrendous act this is just you projecting something onto me.
Also this is just a fictional character who doesn't have to apply to any real life standards at all to begin with.
But just for this let's say he has such a tumor it wouldn't immediately absolve him of any of the crimes he did but in the real world it could be a reasoning for twisted culpability
No.
Not sure why you're so invested in preaching excuses for rape but you can do it to someone else.
The Mountain does have crippling headaches that even chugging milk of the poppy doesn't help. Maybe a lot of his vile actions come from him lashing out from the headaches? Which doesn't excuse him at all, but it might be a reason he's a piece of shit. Euron might've been fucked with by Bloodraven so maybe he went crazy or something because of that?
I'm sorry- are you suggesting headaches make the Mountain rape women?
I was more talking about the brutal murders he commits, not the rapes.
Considering how many of the women he rapes that he goes on to murder (Elia) or otherwise brutalize (Pia), why separate them?
I think he said they are grey because they are like humans, and there aren't any morally black or white people.
Oh, there definitely are morally black people. We're not about to "very fine people on both sides" the human race, thanks.
As GRRM said, even Hitler liked dogs. A positive quality in an otherwise horrible man.
(Actual GRRM quote)
Newsflash, neither did Sauron.
Like does he really want to die on the hill of "Hitler was morally grey"?
And? (also, that's a trope GRRM repeated, not something he came up with)
Hilter is morally black. Doesn't matter if he liked dogs or loved his girlfriend or a million other insignificant qualities that don't at all lighten the evils he perpetuated.
All you're doing by pretending that Hilter is somehow "grey' in character is showing you literally have zero discernment on the subject.
Wow what a positive quality, great point.
I don't think this applies to every character. Mostly just the POVs. Remember, a lot of times he's just speaking off the cuff in interviews. On here, what he says in them is often treated as gospel, but he's just as like to generalize and misspeak as any of us.
Generally you need to spend time with a character to see if they're grey or not, because that's complicated and complex and can't be convincingly told in 5 pages. See for example Jaime who turns out to be grey instead of just evil as soon as he has his POV. He was grey all along, we as readers just didn't know about it.
By his pen, we shall know his word. By his word, we shall know truth and by his truth we shall attain enlightenment. Down the chins of the enlightened will run the grease of moral ambiguity, and to them the firmness of all breasts shall be known.
I don’t think that even applies to all the POVs tbh.
I really don’t think there’s that much grey to Victarion or Aeron.
Both are dealing with previous traumas that they're trying to deal with in bad ways. Also both are trying to get rid of Euron who are definitely worse than they are. So a very dark grey, but still grey.
So George is just like his characters?!..... mind blown
As others have indicated, GRRM tries to give them a context and motivation which (at least partially) explains the evil they do. They’re not just an evil lord simply because they’re inherently evil or corrupted by a mystical evil force etc
Which I would say isn't really anything new or novel or surprising. "The bad guy has a motivation" is the absolute bare minimum I would expect of any work of fiction.
Right, sorry - I didn’t mean any motivation at all, but realistic, complex human motivations and contexts which explain why they chose to act in an evil way or with terrible consequences, but might be understood as rational or necessary from their own perspective. i.e. “Everyone is the hero in their own story”
There’s probably smarter essays out there discussing how conservative, establishment narratives of good and evil over centuries have shaped this kind of story telling: pitting pure hearts against irredeemable evil, and evading any sense of systemic, social or political causality for evil deeds.
How does any of this apply to Joffrey, Gregor, or Euron?
I can't respond to this on any level except this isn't true. I can't even begin to argue against it because it's just wrong.
Eeesh, sorry I brought politics into it
What is so special about it? I have never read a book where characters did not have motivations?
You’re right nearly all characters in fiction have some sort of motivation, but they’re not always relatable, human motivations. Maybe what’s distinctive about GRRM’s novels to Tolkien and others is that the grounds/rationale for the characters’ motivations are put in doubt, whether that leads to good or evil. So maybe it’s less about “grey characters” and more about a sort of social/political realism within a fantasy world. (People are the real monsters, don’t idealize your heroes etc.)
In LotR, the ring exudes an evil, corrupting power independent of the actions of the characters, whereas Ramsey, Joffrey and Euron seem to be driven by human motives like insecurity, shame, megalomania etc. that we can recognize the roots of. Theirs is a direct human motive closer to the nature of real world evil, not a supernatural representation, or allegory for abstract human evil.
Also, compared to an independent Northern Stark Kingdom, or a Targaryen restoration, which get messy politically pretty quickly, the prospect of restored kingdom of Gondor is just presented as a happy ending once the elves are on board. The motivations of Dany and Aragorn might be similar, but in Dany’s world there are more realistic complications and consequences to actually seeing it through.
So, Gollum is not driven by human motivation when he wants the power of the ring for himself? Is greed not a human feeling that is almost prevalent in all human life forms and one of the most fundamental ones?
Ramsay on the other hand just rapes and kills because he is a psycho. There is no real reason why he is doing it. The same with Euron? What is his motivation beyond being just a crazy asshole? And Joff? He's a psycho from birth. How is that not cheap character writing when real-life psychos are certainly able to hide their depravity and show kindness to others or even love, though they might be just faking it? Not to mention, keep themselves in reign to a certain extent. I would argue not writing Ramsay as a raping psycho who is just an asshole because he was mistreated as a bastard and shunned by the oh-so-high-born Starks would be a far better motivation. Joff being just a spoiled kid who actually has some redeeming qualities could have made the conflict between the Starks vs Lannisters much better imo. Joff lets say being a good sword fighter, exhibiting bravery and not abusing Sansa would have made the conflict so much better. But given the fact that George portrayed the Lannisters all as irredeemable, it is impossible to see the Starks as grey character. The narrative clearly wants you to see them as heroes not as grey characters.
As for the ending: So, Bran, a kid who never ruled anything, is a cripple and got elected for no reasons is a more realistic ending than LoR?
I am sorry. I am rolling with laughter.
Ha I’m definitely not defending the TV show’s character arcs!
Gollum is a great character, absolutely. And the ring works as a brilliant metaphor for absolute power and corruption. But it only works if you accept that it’s just a symbol or metaphor. It works to drive the plot and motivate the characters, but it’s not much of an exploration of how real power actually works, and why it takes a hold of people like that.
Cersei’s obsession and corruption by power is a different take on that same idea, but grounded in a more realistic take on how absolutist power works in practice, including how it takes a hold of her at a relatable, psychological level, not a literal supernatural possession.
As for Ramsay, Joffrey and Euron, I do think some of their background explains how they turned out like that - less so Euron, but maybe that’s still to come. But they are the extreme examples among a massive cast - there are plenty more who I think fit your criteria (Varys, Viserys, Littlefinger, Tyrion, Daario, Sandor, Melisandre…).
If we’re talking about that books, I don’t accept the Starks are presented as heroes and Lannisters as irredeemable though, sorry.
It’s because there isn’t a clear defined good as in other stories. Like Lord of the Rings only has one grey character (Boromir), and Harry Potter has one, maybe two, possibly three (Snape, Dumbledore, Peter Pettigrew, but each have several clearly defined evil characters.
ASOIAF has one good character (Brienne). Everyone else is grey or bad. Jon also might be good, but idk. Only a few are evil (Euron, Gregor, etc.)
What about maester Aemon? Or Gilly? Maybe Sam? Have any of them did anything morally questionable?
Maester Aemon too. Samwell is too craven to be considered wholly good. Gilly hasn’t done anything good if I can remember. Someone being good isn’t the assume position
I mean isn't it telling that one of your examples is literally for children?
Like, look at Breaking Bad. Virtually everybody there was "grey" too.
Yet they all have motivations, no?
Look at Aragorn: Aragorn wants to be king because he wants his birthright and is in that matter not any different than Robb or Dany. He is ambitious and also wants the girl as well. In the books, he does not hide who he is and he spent years preparing for that position. He is a good and moral man, but he does have motivations and he is willing to shed blood for it.
The same I can do for all the other characters. All characters in LoR have motivations and are not good or bad for the sake of being good or bad.
Gollum is imo better written than any of the so-called villains of GoT. My feelings for him range from pity to loathing.
Most of the LOTR characters are relatively one dimensional compared to ASOAIF, or any series really. The novel hadn’t been a standard, so expectations of character and the development of them were quite low back then. (I’ve read the books and watch the movies recently, so I’m not just talking out of my ass). Gollum is well written, though I wouldn’t say he’s better well written than Tyrion, who is one of the most complex villains in all of fantasy. Gollum is the only one to really commit bad deeds without wholly being a bad person in LOTR.
Joffrey was trying to mimic Robert's behavior with hunting to impress him. It's subtext but I think that's pretty clear. Joff was young enough to still have baby teeth so while this is a very disturbing incident, it's not without possibility for him to become better and learn. Unfortunately neither Cersei or Robert was likely to do that properly.
Euron is a bit of a different case. I see Euron as kind of similar to Palpatine from Star Wars in his place in the story as it pertains to moral ambiguity (maybe bc I'm on a SW kick lately lmao.) Lucas also writes stories mostly about some moral greyness, Vader being the best example, but Palpatine still exists as this representation of evil. I see Euron in a similar way; he's just representative of pure chaos, the allure of it, the power of it. While he is a character with concrete motivations and personality, I see him more as a symbol of chaos and a type of evil himself. That's just imo. I think Martin thinks most people are not morally pure or morally completely evil, he thinks that like 85% of us fall into the grey. But there's still some people that are evil. I don't think Martin's under delusions about that.