Template talk:WikiProject Criminal Biography

Template:WP Criminal and Template:WP Crime

I am copying some discussion from User talk:Wildhartlivie and User talk:Msgj. Regarding your revert on Template:WP Criminal, I'm wondering whether there is a better way to organise these banners. Can you link me to the discussion about the separate banners because I couldn't find it. If it is just a different wording that is required, then we could probably adapt the crime banner using a parameter. This would help to keep the banners in your project more consistent. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks, Martin 12:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

It took me a while to figure out what you were asking me, this issue came up some time ago. I think that what you took as a reference to a discussion was from the edit summary I left which said "note on project page the inclusion of separate criminal template for biographies: {{WP Criminal}}, an alternate project banner specifically for criminal biographies." I meant to please note this was stated on the project page, not referring to a discussion. The point about a separate banner for WP Crime articles vs. WP Criminal Biographies is an important one. Something has come up in the last few days that clarifies it. The discussion noted here is a question that has come up before. While a defendant in a case is on trial, he or she has not yet been convicted, so it does raise certain WP:BLP issues for living people, and simply questions of validity for those who are not, but who were suspected or assumed to be involved. In the case of Bernard Madoff, the article is certainly of interest to WP Crime, and if he is convicted, the template WP Criminal will become valid. If not, it would remain of interest to WP Crime. If there is a way to incorporate all of the parameters in to one banner, then fine, but it does leave the door open for mis-application. One issue I have with the present WP Criminal banner is that the listas function still doesn't work and I have no clue how to fix this. The project doesn't have a lot of active members so lately I've tried to pick up things pertinent to the project which gets no response. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:28, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Now, of course I understand the libel concerns about not labelling someone a criminal until they have been convicted. But I am still unsure about what is the specific reason that there are two separate banners. Is it the fact that one is called "criminal"? Or is it something in the wording of the banner? For comparison, {{WP Criminal}} says this:

and {{WP Crime}} says:

I think it would be better to consolidate to one banner if possible, to keep the appearance and categorisation of them consistent. Martin 13:18, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know what the rationale was when the project was created, and it doesn't seem as if most people who were active then are so now. I think the fundamental reason remains the libel issue and criminal vs. crime. Using the Madoff example, if "criminal" appears in the template, it is a problem. I know nothing about developing and application of templates. I'm still trying to find someone who can fix them so that they properly display from "listas", which neither of them do right now. Is it possible to have one template that, depending on the parameters chosen, would distinguish between a general crime article and a specific criminal biography, so that the word "criminal" doesn't appear? How would that ensure the parameter is chose correctly so that liability isn't an issue? Perhaps this should be also broached or noted at the project talk page and the creators could address this. Wildhartlivie (talk) 23:14, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

At the moment "criminal" appears in both of them! So I am still a little confused. Yes, the listas will be fixed soon. We can certainly sort out the parameters when I've worked out what the difference in wording should be. Martin 23:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the distinction was that it implies it is covered by the entire project and not just that of criminal biographies. The WP Crime could be revised to remove the mention of criminal biographies, but I'm not sure I understand why it would be required that the project, which covers wider aspects of crime to include biographies, not be allowed to use the two banners. The distinction between a broad topic and a biography is fairly obvious. Some projects, such as film, spun off biography projects. This project isn't big enough to do that, but each part of the topics is fairly specialized.

Still, I want to emphasize, this should be brought up for the entire project to discuss and comment on, and decide what wording should be or if the banners be combined. Wildhartlivie (talk) 00:54, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I can see the reasoning for keeping the two distinct templates, but I don't understand why both of them use the word "biography" when the crime article is often about the case rather than the individual who committed the crime. The WP:BLP concerns are very important and if we don't apply them as stringently here as we do in other areas, the overall purpose of the policy is diminished. As a casual and occasional visitor to crime related articles, I must admit that I find the templates a little confusing. Perhaps we should identify what type of article is likely to be categorized as a crime/criminal type article, and then ensure that the templates are worded in such a way that articles can be easily placed into one or the other of the categories. This may help with the BLP issue but may also help with some of the biographical articles are not categorized consistently with the majority of criminal biographical articles. Rossrs (talk) 06:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Rossrs. That said, I think this topic needs to be brought up at the Wikiproject's talk page so more members of the community and the project in question can weigh in. Pinkadelica ^{Say it...} 07:10, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I am copying the explanation I left for Pinkadelica that maybe states my point more clearly: It's like I said, the project has two things it focuses on. One is the broader subject of crime and the others are criminals. I think the two banners are useful, the only part of the project I ever work on are the biographies. If WP Criminal was a sub-project like serial killers, it wouldn't be an issue, but the projects aren't that big and wouldn't be worthwhile in separating. Not like WPFilm and WP Actors was. When you look at the template code that gets pasted in, it either says WP Crime or WP Criminal. While it is true that almost all biographies are about someone who is a criminal, there are a few whom you can't call that, either yet or ever. Think OJ before the kidnapping and robbery conviction, Lillo Brancato before he was convicted or Bernard Madoff, who has been charged but not convicted. These people are of interest to the crime project but it would be a probable WP:BLP violation to slap criminal in the banner. I'd like to see the words "criminal biography" removed from the {{WP Crime}} banner altogether and keep both. There are some biographies of dead persons, like some of the old west outlaws that weren't convicted either, or now that I think about it Lee Harvey Oswald or John Wilkes Booth who committed high profile crimes but were never tried, but would have been if they hadn't been gunned down. I'd probably not look at this quite as critically if I hadn't just dealt with the crime/criminal issue with Madoff. I don't believe that a single banner can be created that would toggle between general crime and criminal biography that wouldn't be far more difficult to maintain and still adhere to WP:BLP. What would it be, ensuring that the biography=yes gets used?

This is the comment posted by another user on WP:CRIME talk:

Two separate banners are needed for the reasons outlined by Wildhartlivie at Template talk:WP Criminal and User_talk:Pinkadelica#WP Crime/Criminal. I am in favor of removing "and Criminal Biography" from the {{WP Crime}} template. momoricks (make my day) 01:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

BLP=yes parameter?

How does this template distinguish between living and dead criminals? I know there's always the obligatory {{blp}} tag but shouldn't there also be a blp=yes or living=yes parameter for categorization purposes within the wikiproject? -- œ^™ 17:40, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure there is a requirement that banners have a code for living vs. dead. The template doesn't and at present, I'm the only WP:CRIME person of whom I'm aware that is active and around. I don't know how to make such a change. All criminals would fall under the WPBiography template and it does make that distinction. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

True, {{WPBIO}} serves this purpose. Duplication of this function seems unnecessary. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Remove "To do" section

The "To do" section does not appear appropriate for a talk page banner. It should only refer to the subject upon which it is placed.--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 23:43, 9 December 2021 (UTC)