Episode Discussion
Original Air Date: Dec 29, 2019
Debbie weighs the pros and cons of a new career path. Frank uncovers the truth about Faye’s living situation. A miscommunication between Ian and Mickey has disastrous consequences and Lip and Tami disagree over who should be taking care of Fred.
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I enjoyed Mickey and Ian both thinking the other killed Paula.
I am sooooo over Liam's storyline. I really could not give a shit less about it. Him being Todd's little "agent" literally evolved out of nowhere and makes zero sense. They should've kept him in private school, there would've been a lot more opportunities for good storylines. This feels just as "filler" as Ann's tamales story did.
So fucking pointless, Liam is the worst actor I've seen in years.
I used to love Liam’s character right up until he began private school (forget what season that was). That was right when his character took a turn for the worse and Frank tried to take him on as his little protege (which was funny a couple of times and genuine in hotel room scene) but overall just started getting super old.
I always watch these episodes pretty closely but I am confused as to where Todd came from at all, and how Liam became his little basketball agent and where this storyline even evolved from. Literally just the most pointless filler. Liam had potential, but they have really trashed his character over the last couple of seasons.
Before the private school storyline Liam didn't really have a "character" he was pretty much just a baby lol.
Guess you aren’t watching that closely. Todd has been around for a few seasons. He is Liams public school friend. He made friends with Todd because he needed an enforcer / bodyguard and in exchange Liam did Todd’s schoolwork. He moved in with Todd for a while because he thought he needed to be more black. There’s been probably 20 episodes with Todd in them.
The storyline I actually find fairly clever. It’s very real. AAU basketball in the inner cities is full of situations like Liam / Todd except for its usually an adult taking an advantage of young basketball player to make money and try and get a piece of whatever endorsement or kick back they get to play for a given program. Liam took on the management of Todd 1) because Todd was getting more offers than he knew what to do with, and 2) because he saw an opportunity.
You say they “trashed” Liams character but this is shameless. He’s a Gallagher. They actually finally made him an actual character since they changed actors. That’s the point.
He honestly should've died from the overdose. Would've been more impactful to the characters, and we wouldn't have his multiple pointless storylines
oh naw, chill...
I couldn't care less about him but I'm so sick of people thinking that a bad CHARACTER means a bad ACTOR. It doesn't. Do you REALLY think they would keep him on the show if they didn't want his character to be that shrug "meh whatever" attitude he has? Like if that was his real personality no one would hire him lol. That's what they want for that character and the fact that it annoys you so much means hes doing a fine job.
Wtf happened to Ian’s face in the cop car?
https://i.imgur.com/gx1QStr.jpg
“Do you wanna know how i got these scars?”
He came right off the Gotham's set.
i'm scared
I saw that too lol, it looks creepy.
Maybe it was a stand in and they cgi-ed his face on? Lol
That’s what I was thinking. If that’s the case though, they did a shit job.
I came to this subreddit specifically for this reason. Just to make sure I wasn't crazy.
I noticed it too. Very very bad CGI for some reason. More than likely cause he had different lines that didn’t match up with the scene they used.
I was very confused by the Mickey and Terry dynamic? Last time we saw them interacting was when Terry assaulted Mickey for coming out. He’s ok with him being gay given that he was giving him “advice,” but actually not ok with it — Not sure what to think.
It was so weird seeing them all around the table like we used to but different actors trying to portray the same roles. Like sandy basically being Mandy. I don’t like it lol.
Was that even the same set? The whole layout of the house was totally different.
I wondered that, too.
I'm just assuming they moved. Not a stretch, considering how stable the Milkoviches are.
Or that wasn’t their house, and they were doing the serial number filing in a different location. I got the impression that the two straight dudes who were married are not Milkoviches, because I doubt Terry would have stood for that even if it was just for legal purposes because of the optics.
I’m really conflicted about this whole thing. On one hand, I’d like nothing more than to see Mickey and Ian leave Terry as a bloody smear on the ground. That being said...Mickey going back to him is not necessarily OOC.
Parent/child dynamics where the parent is abusive can be extremely complicated. You do not just walk away from a parent who has hurt you to that extent without experiencing some degree of guilt, because our society and culture have taught us that it’s still taboo in some circles to have an attitude where family always comes first, no matter how shitty they are. It’s super easy to backslide.
The biggest thing that doesn’t make sense is how calmly they are talking about Ian - but then again, Ian was present at Mickey’s wedding and Terry didn’t throw him out or ask him to leave. He also didn’t antagonize Ian or otherwise pay him any mind at the Alibi until the fight broke out.
I agree that shitty writing is to blame here. But I can only possibly rationalize this with an explanation that Terry isn’t scary anymore and is just an old homophobic creep who is past his prime and Mickey isn’t afraid of him anymore. In that sense, Mickey has won because Terry can’t control him anymore and Terry knows it.
fuck terry. although it really isnt that surprising when you look at the milkovich family’s dynamic as a whole. i mean he literally r*ped mandy & got her pregnant and we still see them interact afterwards. its terrible and fucked up but the milkovich kids have been through like, nothing but trauma, to them thats just shit they deal with, mandy blew off the thing about her dad as “no big deal” when it obviously was. theyre all just so used to being in the same house as eachother it’d get pretty tiring having to think about that shit all the time.
also... that was just the last time WE saw them interact, it can be assumed they interact offscreen too since he’s his dad
I mean they still talk to Frank after all the sick shit he’s done to them, right after it happens actually
terry is worse than frank though. frank is more neglectful rather than abusive. he definitely has tendencies but terry is a whole mother wheelhouse.
Frank is Danny Tanner from Full House compared to Terry.
Hey man I agree but Frank has done god awful shit like calling cps on his family or cashing dead relatives checks, making Carl think he has cancer and dying, Frank hit his kids too. It’s just not as frequent in the show because they’re old enough to defend themselves, head butted Ian
Frank knowingly fucked someone to death for a TV.
I agree, we always see Milkoviches acting in contradicting ways with each other. Besides the Mandy stuff, after the 3x06 incident, Mickey still acted completely normal around Terry. Terry didn't seem to mind Ian being at Mickey's wedding. In season 4, father and son are speaking normally as if nothing had happened between them.
I think Mickey (and Mandy) have a kind of love/hate relationship towards their father and the rest of their family. They feel some sort of loyalty towards them and sometimes just accept the terrible things they do and say without problem.
To be honest, I found Ian's interaction with Terry last season way more out of character than this episode's. Ian going to Terry for advice makes no sense, but Mickey going to his family for advice (particularly since it's about murdering someone) is a bit more logical to me.
Yeah that’s very true. It wasn’t out of character like it was for Ian.
I think the only other implied interaction was in 9x05 when Ian went to terry for advice on whether or not to run away and Terry knew Mickey was in Mexico.
its his dad.. its not like we see EVERYTHING onscreen
I think it’s actually plausible that Mickey was still talking to him in the time period that we don’t see either of them. Who knows? Maybe they did come to a really unstable and fucked-up kind of truce where if Ian was out of sight, he was out of mind in Terry’s eyes.
As much as I would’ve loved to see Mickey just drag Terry out into the street and shoot him, it is what it is and old habits die hard. People have really fucked-up senses of loyalty even to terrible family members. I’ve been there and done that.
Yeah I’m pretty sure they were in the same prison together once Mickey got locked up at the end of season 5.
That’s true when you put it like that about Mandy. I was thinking the only reason Mickey even knew Ian was going to jail was because Terry told him after Ian went to him about “advice” last season or whenever that was. I wish they’d address it tho.
There is a deleted scene where Mickey is in Mexico and some American kids are buying drugs from him wearing a t-shirt with Ian's face on it. Mickey asked about it and they tell him about gay Jesus and how he's going to prison in Chicago for blowing up a van.
Literally just stumbled upon this on YouTube last night, “fuckin Gallagher.” It made me happy lol.
Am I the only one who thinks the Milkovich are hilarious in their awful way?
I definitely think Terry and Mickey being cordial and friendly to each other is OOC especially given their last interaction, but I think it's to set up Terry's presence in the next few episodes. Based on filming BTS in Chicago, Terry's in episode 11 too.
Here’s another reason I just thought of. I suspect that Terry knew Mickey was the smartest of his kids and needed a favor from him. It’s also likely that Terry manipulated his way back into his life with the “we’re faaaamily” line. Terry needed something out of Mickey. There’s no other reason he’d welcome him back into his home, aside from maybe having five or so years to cool off.
I think a lot of people it’s cut and dry. As an abused kid it was an easy choice for me I walked away. However a lot of kids if not majority of abuse victims as kids tend to not be able to cut ties with their parents. Those are still their parents in their heads. It’s a form of Stockholm
This. Exactly this. Family bonds aren’t broken so easily, and it’s extremely hard to cut ties with an abuser when they are in your family. One of my closest friends was sexually abused by his father, and it took him another decade after he became an adult to cut ties with him completely. It’s very complicated.
It was cool to see Carl being a vicious sociopath again, even if the plot didnt really make sense
i hate that i love tami and lip together now. when she's not being a raging asshole for no reason she's pretty enjoyable
the beginning with the PO getting thrown out the window made me lol but was weirdly dark?
the rest of the episode...zzz
i guess the debbie prostitute thing is kinda interesting
Shameless has gone very very dark in the past. Mickey's dad forcing him at gunpoint to fuck Svetlana in front of Ian, them finding Monica with her wrists slit at Thanksgiving dinner, Liam getting into Fiona's coke as a baby...
true, guess it's just been a good while
I had no interest in Tami but now I'm kind of invested in their story.
What happened to her welding job, weren't they on strike?
That’s what happened to her welding job.
Yeah, but did the strike end, did they end up getting unionized, she hasn't been standing on the picket line.
I’m just running with the assumption that the strike’s still on and therefore she’s out here trying to make it however she can, i.e. snagging that dead babydaddy cash, escorting with her brunette friend whose name I will never remember, etc.
I dont think it ended. She got all excited about it, but then panicked when her coworker that was running the strike said it could take most of the year before anything gets resolved.
Liam is supposed to be in 5th or 6th grade. Why does everyone he hangs out with look so much older than him?
bc they ARE older, when he stopped going to private school they bumped him up like 3-4 grades
Ohhh I missed that. Thank you
I have a lot of thoughts on Mickey and Ian this episode. People are being really hard on Mickey for hitting Ian, and I totally agree it was wrong. But just because people grow and develop doesn’t mean they don’t occasionally backslide or revert back to old/bad behavior, especially when under duress. Mickeys character didn’t regress—he just fucked up in the heat of the moment. He overreacted. Do I wish he didn’t hit him? Of course, it was wrong. But you can’t say his character has regressed when he spent the episode discussing the idea of marriage with Ian. The same man who was once so ashamed of his identity, put his name on that marriage certificate with zero hesitation and was shattered when Ian didn’t do the same.
Which brings us to Ian. This seems like an unpopular opinion, but I actually don’t think Ian did anything wrong. He went into the situation thinking their only option was to get married, and he meant what he said in the diner. There were two reasons to get married: immunity and they’re in love. I think Ian really believed that when he said it. Why not get married for immunity when they ARE madly in love? It made sense. But when immunity was no longer necessary, he took a beat and realized that there wasn’t a need to get married at that very moment. He never said he was opposed to marriage, he just wanted to discuss it. He handled his emotions like an adult and tried to have a grown up conversation with Mickey about thoughts and feelings. I was really proud of how Ian handled the situation. I still understand of course why Mickey was so hurt and felt lied to, but I don’t think Ian meant to lie. The circumstances just changed and that warranted a conversation.
I also felt the conversation at the Milkovich house was pretty weird. I find it hard to believe Mickey would just stroll in and call Terry dad and ask for advice. I wish they’d shed a little more light on how much contact these characters have had since Mickey came out in season 4, because going from that interaction to this one was a bit jarring. That being said, I’m sure as a child of abuse Mickey has some very complicated feelings toward terry and his family, and maybe cannot let go completely. And I have to admit, terry’s comment of “who’s Ian?” And mickeys facial expression and reaction made me laugh out loud. That was great.
Since Ian usually walks away from Mickey fairly easily when things get tough, I am looking forward to Mickey being the one to walk away this time, and to Ian begging for him back. I can’t wait to see Ian prove his love once and for all. Despite his behavior at the end of this episode, Mickey still deserves it.
Yessss! Mickey has been by Ian’s side through the worst and to have Ian back out of marriage like that when he truly is madly in love with Ian broke my heart too. Mickey had way more to lose after his dad threatens him, and while I agree Ian was right for wanting to take more time to think it through, I believe Mickey was completely justified in becoming so upset. My heart broke with his while Ian stood there unable to sign the papers.
Also Cam broke his leg in real life so they had to find some way to write into the show, I guess. Not saying the punch wasn’t already there in the script or that’s the way the writers should have gone about it but it could be a factor.
It was pretty clear that Cam broke his leg at the start the filming of the episode and the show was trying to cover it up.
Yeah I definitely saw something like that coming. Not shocked that Mickey sucker-punched Ian but I will admit the part where he falls down the stairs looks super awkwardly fake, which it obviously is since Cam just broke his leg in real life. I think it was definitely something that would be overlooked by most
They really should have had Ian chasing Mickey and fall down the stairs.
I honestly thought that was what was going to happen. (Ian falling)
That being said, I didn’t entirely mind it because it was realistic. Mickey was pushed past his breaking point and even if you try to work past your bad habits and grow as a person, it’s really tough to move past how you were raised - especially when you’re put in an extreme emotional situation.
It also shows that Mickey is still flawed even though many of us (myself included at times) tend to gloss over his faults. Fundamentally, he’s still the same person he was, he is just now secure with his sexuality and capable of demonstrating that he loves Ian. He’s a better version of himself, but still himself.
I also think if Mickey hadn't gone to prison and continued to grow outside of that environment from 5x12 onward, he'd be in a much better spot. But it takes awhile to adjust back to being out of that prison headspace, and he already had bad habits to begin with.
The thing is that hes not flawed like us. He's a felon with a shit ton of trauma and raised to use violence as a solution. I'm glad they showed that reality. If only because I know they'll have a kind of redemption
His father literally beat the shit out of him for being gay too not to mention what his dad said this episode. For him to say okay to getting married was EXTREMELY vulnerable. Like Ian embraces being gay and grew up in a fucked up family but they were loving of him. By not signing after Mickey signed is a huge slap in the face rejection to Mickey.
So he takes a huge chance in his mind and is super vulnerable when his default is macho tough guy WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU LOOKING AT. Then Ian rejects him and makes a fool out of him (from his pov).
Of course he defaulted to his more natural state (which is a survival trait in prison he just got out of too). Not saying its right but what did Ian expect lol.
That is true. I don’t love what happened, but I understand why it did.
The writers should know that parolees aren’t allowed to hang out while on parole.
These writers don't know much about anything.
I was thinking the same things. It’s a violation of their parole.
What if they got married?
They can’t get married either, until they’re off supervision, as parole and probation officers can, and usually will, refuse. The writers are clueless in general, and this awful season is proof.
I don't know what happened because when Fiona was on proabation and we met her proabation officer the writers had everything nailed down and did not miss a beat.
Can they stop treating kev/V and Carl like sitcom characters with a new zany storyline every week that doesn’t carry over to the next week?
Also... debbies relationship is totally gonna turn into a love triangle with mickeys gay cousin right?
Ok I have a question. Debbie being bi-whatever is a plot device I get it but does she have to try or be attracted to every bi or gay character? it’s like the writers see it as a few more pages of gold lol like come on, you don’t see the male characters doing that to every woman that comes on screen. Oh wait, I do realize they are telegraphing the mickeys cousin thing. Sheesh.
Can kev and V storyline be anymore boring?? Every episode writers come up with some random shit just for a few laughs, and it’s not even funny.
There’s a different scheme every single week and I’m trying really hard not to dwell on old shameless but they would have gotten that bitch back before instead of spinning it into some other stupid shit to try to be funny that isn’t funny at all. Literally watching their scenes like this 😐
Exactly! This Korean pyramid scheme thing is really stupid and out of character for them. They may be uneducated but they’re not stupid! And I don’t like the fact that Kev and V have 0 interactions with Gallagher family anymore.
When V was asking the lady questions, I was hopeful that she would avoid the scam using some new knowledge she might've gained from her pharmaceutical sales experience, but nope.
Exactly. Kevin may be dense but V is not. It’s not like 800 bucks is a lot of money but to blow it on some MLM is ridiculous. Is she out of the pharmaceutical sales now?
So true literally 0
Agree. I loved the idea of V as a pharma rep but that didn't last long, nor did the new "best friend" who got her into it. It seems like every week it's something brand new for Kev and V at breakneck speed with no common thread except that they need money. I'm hoping maybe they're building to something that will tie it all together at some point and it'll make sense but I'm not holding my breath.
Vee and her bestfriend thing didn’t last bc if they didn’t know how to write for Vee and Fiona as a storyline then they DEFINITELY don’t know how to write for 2 women of color AND unrelated to the main characters of the Gallaghers. Disaster averted.
I really don't like Veronica as a drug rep 😒
I didn’t like it either, but it seemed like a good way for her to make some extra cash. And then boom the next episode it’s just gone, like it never happened...
I thought they were going to go crazy on the girl when they got her back at the bar and all they did was roll over. I genuinely thought we may get a classic shameless moment but nope.