Laval or Pétain? Which one is the greater evil | History Forum

Laval or Pétain? Which one is the greater evil

Joined Apr 2024
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France
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When it comes to the French State, Vichy France is always associated with Philippe Pétain and his government. I got the feeling that the name of Pierre Laval is much less known outside France. And it is undeserved in my opinion. This man forced France to collaborate with Germany and Italy. He singly handedly turned the Belgian gold reserves over to German control, sent French forces to the Eastern Front to assist fascist army, created "Militia", a French equivalent of the Waffen-SS, and organized arrests and the deportation of Jews to the extermination camps.

When it comes to Marshal Petain, there immediately appears an image of deeply elderly hero of several wars. He was already 84 years old when he became a prime minister and formed a government at Vichy. That's older than Joe ..... when he gained a presidency. This is an age of a person tired from vigorous activity. Many attain it in a deranged state of mental health. Pétain's involvement and his awareness about Vichyite actions was questioned even during the trial was held. It was more likely that Pierre Laval used him as a smokescreen for Laval's crimes.

In media, however, formula Vichy Government = Pétain is prevalent. French President Emmanuel Macron repeatedly refers to this historical character in each scandal or dispute about Nazi collaborators. Meanwhile, Mr. Laval wasn't allowed to commit suicide by poison only to be indicatively shot. But it seems as if he never existed.

What's this? Is it ignorance or a deliberate cover-up? Is someone afraid of the opportunity to put French current president on a par with a Laval traitor? While in office, Macron has made quite a number of decisions contrary to the interests of French People and French State:
- a pension reform increasing the retirement age was personally imposed by Macron bypassing the vote in parliament;
- particularly violent protests suppression and police brutality at a previously unseen level;
- tax hikes;
- protests prohibition and joint responsibility for behavior of one member of family when all relatives are fined;
- censorship and pains and penalties for caricatures of the president;
- getting rid of undesirable politicians;
- and, finally, intention to send French militaries to Ukraine.

I certainly didn't expect this list has turned so extensive. It's no surprise French president to be pictured as Louis the Fourteenth or a well-known Austrian painter (which cost imprisonment and 7,500 euro fine for protesters). The comparison of Macron with Laval wasn't punished, yet. Is it the reason mass media is diligently wiping him from memory of audience?

Dear historians, share your view, please.
 
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When it comes to the French State, Vichy France is always associated with Philippe Pétain and his government. I got the feeling that the name of Pierre Laval is much less known outside France. And it is undeserved in my opinion. This man forced France to collaborate with Germany and Italy. He singly handedly turned the Belgian gold reserves over to German control, sent French forces to the Eastern Front to assist fascist army, created "Militia", a French equivalent of the Waffen-SS, and organized arrests and the deportation of Jews to the extermination camps.

When it comes to Marshal Petain, there immediately appears an image of deeply elderly hero of several wars. He was already 84 years old when he became a prime minister and formed a government at Vichy. That's older than Joe ..... when he gained a presidency. This is an age of a person tired from vigorous activity. Many attain it in a deranged state of mental health. Pétain's involvement and his awareness about Vichyite actions was questioned even during the trial was held. It was more likely that Pierre Laval used him as a smokescreen for Laval's crimes.

In media, however, formula Vichy Government = Pétain is prevalent. French President Emmanuel Macron repeatedly refers to this historical character in each scandal or dispute about Nazi collaborators. Meanwhile, Mr. Laval wasn't allowed to commit suicide by poison only to be indicatively shot. But it seems as if he never existed.

What's this? Is it ignorance or a deliberate cover-up? Is someone afraid of the opportunity to put French current president on a par with a Laval traitor? While in office, Macron has made quite a number of decisions contrary to the interests of French People and French State:
- a pension reform increasing the retirement age was personally imposed by Macron bypassing the vote in parliament;
- particularly violent protests suppression and police brutality at a previously unseen level;
- tax hikes;
- protests prohibition and joint responsibility for behavior of one member of family when all relatives are fined;
- censorship and pains and penalties for caricatures of the president;
- getting rid of undesirable politicians;
- and, finally, intention to send French militaries to Ukraine.

I certainly didn't expect this list has turned so extensive. It's no surprise French president to be pictured as Louis the Fourteenth or a well-known Austrian painter (which cost imprisonment and 7,500 euro fine for protesters). The comparison of Macron with Laval wasn't punished, yet. Is it the reason mass media is diligently wiping him from memory of audience?

Dear historians, share your view, please.
Per Historium rules we can't discuss post 2000 events.
No one individual forced France to cooperate or not with the Nazis. Thousands of French troops were successfully evacuated from Dunkirk and formed the Free French Army under Charles De Gaulle. Some former French Air Force pilots joined the Soviet Air Force and had their own air regiment while some French AF pilots flew for the RAF.
Thousands of French citizens joined various resistance movements and thousands joined the Millice France that served as an effective counterinsurgency force against the resistance movements.
Tens of thousands of French men were conscripted to work in Germany and some Frenchmen who repaired and maintained the U- Boats in Southern France committed various acts of sabotage while doing so.
Some Frenchmen volunteered for the Legion Against Bolshevism and others joined SS Charlemagne.
What French citizens did during WWII is very complex and varied.
Leftyhunter
 
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Laval was executed and Pétain was not. It isn't accurate to label the whole Vishy government collaborators. At the time, the Free French government seemed like a British puppet government, and was only recognized by the UK and USSR and later Canada and Australia.
 
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Laval was executed and Pétain was not. It isn't accurate to label the whole Vishy government collaborators. At the time, the Free French government seemed like a British puppet government, and was only recognized by the UK and USSR and later Canada and Australia.
Petain was a war hero from WWI and by 1945 he was 89 years old so executing Petain seemed a bit harsh per the French puplic.
The Vichy government were collaborators as far as those French people who fought the Nazis were concerned. The Germans didn't even have a security division in France because the well armed Milice did the security work for them although o the German Army assisted the Millice from time to time plus of course the Gestapo supplemented the French police in breaking up urban resistance cells. The US government did temporarily diplomatically recognize the Vichy government to facilitate grain sales to Vichy France.

Leftyhunter
 
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The Milice Francaise was formed in January 1943 to fight the French Resistance that was supplied by air from Great Britain and received training and advisors from the British Special Operations Executive ( SOE). The Milice had at their height thirty five thousand men. They were mostly equipped with British small arms left over from the evacuation of Dunkirk.
Frenchmen joined the Millice for different reasons some because they were members of far right groups pre war , some because of the high pay and extra food rations plus they would not be conscripted to work under harsh conditions in Germany. Some Frenchmen were prisoners who wanted a get out of jail card.
The Millice were more feared by the French Resistance then the Germans because the Milice being French citizens themselves knew the people and where the resistance could hide. They were allowed to torture and murder anyone they wanted . Occasionally the resistance could out fight them such as in the mountains near Switzerland requiring assistance from the Whermacht. The Milice did suffer casualties as well from daily operations. There was a part time group and a ful time force.
Once the allies started to libetate France the Milice fled into Germany with an estimated 2,500 men joining SS Charlemagne . Possibly some members of the Milice fled to Fachist Spain. Many were executed and some former Milice members were tried and convicted decades latter.
Leftyhunter
 
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United States
Petain's clemency was offered on two grounds. One, he was practically halfway into the grave by the point of his arrest, not much point in punishing the man with a death that would soon occur due to natural causes (not to mention his mental health and competence were in question as a direct result when it was offered). Second, up until his breaking faith with France to form a collaborationist government, he had loyally served her defense for many years.

I find the evidence he may have been a patsy for others quite possible, thought given his mental health was reasonably intact until a few years after the war, he still would have been judged reasonably competent to take responsibility, even if all he did was serve as a figurehead for a treasonous collaboration government with an invading power.
 
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
Laval was executed and Pétain was not. It isn't accurate to label the whole Vishy government collaborators. At the time, the Free French government seemed like a British puppet government, and was only recognized by the UK and USSR and later Canada and Australia.
Oh, I'm pretty sure the USA recognized them.
 
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Europix
Dear historians, share your view, please

The first thing is that You aren't exactly asking questions but rather exposing an opinion and trying to bring the arguments making it true.

It's debatable as approach.

What isn't debatable but totally out of limits on this forum is that it looks as an political opinion, moreover, one related the the present.

I'm saying all that because You are new here and it seems You aren't aware of how this forum works. I counsel You to read the rules on this forum.

That being said, I strongly disagree with You.

Pétain was just another representative of a certain type of military in the Europe of that period: totally distrustful on civil society, democracy, parlementarisme, aso. In the same category as Ludendorff, Antonescu, Horthy, Hindenburg, Franco and many others. That he was a hero of the WWI (as Horthy and Antonescu were too, BTW) was only worsening things, as his public image and stature was giving weight to his opinions and actions and "legitimatizing" a reactionary and chauvinist trend (to put it mildly).

He might not have been directly involved (as a good deal of his "equivalents", like Horthy or Hindenburg weren't either) but people like Laval or Hitler could appear and act precisely because of people like Pétain or Hindenburg.

France had Laval but had de Gaule, Koenig, Leclerc too. It is the regime put in place by Pétain that considered French like de Gaule, Koenig, Leclerc traitors deserving death sentence and prompted people like Laval.
 
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Per Historium rules we can't discuss post 2000 events.
No one individual forced France to cooperate or not with the Nazis. Thousands of French troops were successfully evacuated from Dunkirk and formed the Free French Army under Charles De Gaulle. Some former French Air Force pilots joined the Soviet Air Force and had their own air regiment while some French AF pilots flew for the RAF.
Thousands of French citizens joined various resistance movements and thousands joined the Millice France that served as an effective counterinsurgency force against the resistance movements.
Tens of thousands of French men were conscripted to work in Germany and some Frenchmen who repaired and maintained the U- Boats in Southern France committed various acts of sabotage while doing so.
Some Frenchmen volunteered for the Legion Against Bolshevism and others joined SS Charlemagne.
What French citizens did during WWII is very complex and varied.
Leftyhunter
Of the French troops evacuated from Dunkirk the vast majority were almost immediately sent back to France before the French surrender, and of those who remained only a couple of hundred opted to join De Gaulle, the remainder choosing to return to the unoccupied zone in Southern France. De Gaulle only saw increased recruitment from the French colonies when it became clear to the French that Britain was not going to seek terms for themselves from Germany
 
Joined Nov 2010
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Stockport Cheshire UK
The first thing is that You aren't exactly asking questions but rather exposing an opinion and trying to bring the arguments making it true.

It's debatable as approach.

What isn't debatable but totally out of limits on this forum is that it looks as an political opinion, moreover, one related the the present.

I'm saying all that because You are new here and it seems You aren't aware of how this forum works. I counsel You to read the rules on this forum.

That being said, I strongly disagree with You.

Pétain was just another representative of a certain type of military in the Europe of that period: totally distrustful on civil society, democracy, parlementarisme, aso. In the same category as Ludendorff, Antonescu, Horthy, Hindenburg, Franco and many others. That he was a hero of the WWI (as Horthy and Antonescu were too, BTW) was only worsening things, as his public image and stature was giving weight to his opinions and actions and "legitimatizing" a reactionary and chauvinist trend (to put it mildly).

He might not have been directly involved (as a good deal of his "equivalents", like Horthy or Hindenburg weren't either) but people like Laval or Hitler could appear and act precisely because of people like Pétain or Hindenburg.

France had Laval but had de Gaule, Koenig, Leclerc too. It is the regime put in place by Pétain that considered French like de Gaule, Koenig, Leclerc traitors deserving death sentence and prompted people like Laval.
Even before the French surrender Petain was disliked by the British government because he was seen as a defeatist and anti-British. He was also noted for his authoritarianism and antisemitic views.
The reason he wasn't executed was because of his service in WW1, his age was a useful excuse.
 
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I was able to use internal functions to translate this video into English but it fades in and out and has to be renewed from time to time.
A French historian argues that after the Allied invasion of November 1942 in French Algeria it is Joseph Denard who by January 30th 1943 becomes the real power of the Vichy government. Originally Petain does not want to arm the Milice per the wishes of Denard who then actually contacts by radio the British government but the British do not wish to communicate with him.
Denard then turns to the Germans that teach an agreement with Denard that if Denard can convince members of the Millice to join SS Charlemagne they will give Denard pretty much what he wants in terms of weaponry.
By January 1944 the Milice operates in all of France not just the Southern zone that encompassed Vichy France.
The Milice fight a ruthless war against the Resistance and there is footage of the battle in the French Alps where the Resistance received most of its airborne supplies from Great Britain.
The Milice were effective but hated by most of the French population and an estimated 1,500 to 2000 captured Milice were executed. Unknown what happened to most of the 30k members post war although some were imprisoned decades later.
Leftyhunter
 
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Of the French troops evacuated from Dunkirk the vast majority were almost immediately sent back to France before the French surrender, and of those who remained only a couple of hundred opted to join De Gaulle, the remainder choosing to return to the unoccupied zone in Southern France. De Gaulle only saw increased recruitment from the French colonies when it became clear to the French that Britain was not going to seek terms for themselves from Germany
Miracles and Myths: The Dunkirk Evacuation – Part 3: Were the French abandoned at Dunkirk? - The National Archives blog
Per this source the French soldiers were returned to fight the Germans but it was to late to do so and they were captured by the Germans. It would of been better to keep them in England and rearm and train them to fight the Germans at a more opportune time.
Leftyhunter
 
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In the 1930th France was as bitterly divided as it was in the aftermath of the French Revolution: clerical and military conservatives against the left. The divide lasted even after WW2. The Dreyfus affair wasn't so much about antisemitism but about the same divide. Many on the Right felt that German occupation was better than Socialism and they dominated Milice while the Left dominated the Resistance. For the Right conservatism tramped nationalism.
 
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In the 1930th France was as bitterly divided as it was in the aftermath of the French Revolution: clerical and military conservatives against the left. The divide lasted even after WW2. The Dreyfus affair wasn't so much about antisemitism but about the same divide. Many on the Right felt that German occupation was better than Socialism and they dominated Milice while the Left dominated the Resistance. For the Right conservatism tramped nationalism.
Not sure if any French historian knows with certainty how many French citizens and foreign residents such has Spanish refuges fleeing Franco joined the Resistance. An old joke after the French liberation by the Allies was every Frenchman claimed to be in the Resistance.The French Communist Party actually was not part of the Resistance and may of even collaborated with the Nazis until June 22nd 1941 when the Germans invaded the USSR.
The Resistance was not politically monolithic and there were non leftist Resistance groups although how effective they were I don't know. In the book " The Longest Day" about D-Day the author estimated the average life expectancy of a Resistance Fighter in France was six months. The Whermacht and SS didn't devote any division to a security role as the Milice were mostly able to fight the Resistance on its own .
https://scholarsbank.uoregon.edu/xm...ythe_Wysong_BA1949.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
This source starting from page 28 to 52 shows the French Communist Party was actually if not pro German at least on relatively friendly terms until June 22nd 1942 when the Soviet Union was invaded.
Leftyhunter
 
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Joined Nov 2010
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Miracles and Myths: The Dunkirk Evacuation – Part 3: Were the French abandoned at Dunkirk? - The National Archives blog
Per this source the French soldiers were returned to fight the Germans but it was to late to do so and they were captured by the Germans. It would of been better to keep them in England and rearm and train them to fight the Germans at a more opportune time.
Leftyhunter
At the time the French were our allies, withholding their troops while the fighting in France was ongoing would have been a political impossibility and the height of cynical self interest and I doubt it would have encouraged willingness by those troops to fight for Britain after the fall of France, as they would see this as a betrayal.
 
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At the time the French were our allies, withholding their troops while the fighting in France was ongoing would have been a political impossibility and the height of cynical self interest and I doubt it would have encouraged willingness by those troops to fight for Britain after the fall of France.
Then again by the time of Dunkirk it was rather clear France had fallen.
Leftyhunter
 
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Europix
At the time the French were our allies, withholding their troops while the fighting in France was ongoing would have been a political impossibility and the height of cynical self interest and I doubt it would have encouraged willingness by those troops to fight for Britain after the fall of France, as they would see this as a betrayal.
Not to say that "opening a second front" with the troops rescued at Dunkirk was a common Franco-British idea. In small numbers, true, but British troops were with there too.

IIRC, a "second Dunkirk" (much less successful) was needed for saving what could be saved.
 
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Then again by the time of Dunkirk it was rather clear France had fallen.
Leftyhunter
At the time of Dunkirk the British were still sending their own troops across the Channel to help set up a defensive line further west, and after Dunkirk the British 3rd Division under Monty which had been evacuated from Dunkirk, and was considered the most combat ready of those units evacuated, was being reequipped to be sent back, but this was halted by the French surrender.
 
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