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I’ve just finished the episode where Eros crashes with Miller and Julie (Venus? It wasn’t Earth) Anyway I was confused why Miller stayed and kissed Julie. Was he actually in love ? I honestly found it really strange. He’s never met her and much older than her.
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This is exactly how the relationship is portrayed in the books.
Miller was a loser cop, on a loser rock and had it not been for the case to find Julie he would have lived an entirely forgettable life.
His dedication to the case brought direction and passion back into his life. However, he found a family with the Roci crew and threw it all away when he wasted the protomolecule scientist and may have been looking to connect with Julie and/or redeem himself in Holden's eyes. ( In the books he has a few internal monoluges where he states his admiration for Holden and his crew)
The part where Holden makes Miller part of the crew just breaks my heart. It meant so much to him to have a home and be accepted, and then he knowingly throws that all away to do what he (and I agree with him) thought was right.
I had to put the book down for a few days after that. I only got into the books because of the show. I wasn't expecting that.
More like a cop fallen from grace. But I agree with the rest.
Well explained. It works a lot better in the books versus the show, because you can read
Holden’sMiller’s thoughts. In the show, it does come across a little weird why he falls in love with her.It does come across as weird, because it kind of is. Weird in a very human way. I don't know, I found his somewhat creepy, somewhat stalkery, but ultimately well-intentioned obsession with her totally believable, and Miller sacrificing his life to save human kind/committing suicide for the slightest chance of living on in some way with Julie
that was the most powerful, moving scene for me in all film media. It brought tears to my eyes and I thought about it for a long time after. Miller was one fucked up, lonely dude, but he was a fantastic character.
What happens to us now?
I don't know. We die maybe.
If we don't die, that will be interesting.
Whatever happens, happens to both of us.
Definitely one of the most heartbreaking scenes I've seen in any tv show.
He's more in love with the idea of her.
Well, Dawes figures it out, even though it takes him a little while. He doesn't see it at first, but then when he finally does it kind of puts an exclamation point to it.
But yeah, Miller was a broken down alcoholic who had given up on everything just about, including and especially himself, and Julie is a young, fresh face who is idealistic, and the fact that all her idealism ends up blowing up in her face, and results in her demise is something that touches Miller on a very deep and profound level, and that's why he doesn't look for a way out, and refuses to let her die again alone.
Miller's thoughts*
Lol yes. Got Holden on the mind, apparently.
Don't we all <3
Exactly this. It's an existential love (he found meaning in his life through his pursuit of finding her) that became romanticized, cuz she's a hot chick.
Exactly. He even says in the books that he is aware that if he ever met her, both of them would be disappointing. It doesn't hinder his feelings though.
To quote the guy with the second best hair (but the best smile) "His love, is a pure love."
Based on the series, I felt like Miller found again his real self within the admiration of Julie, her fire and the mystery of her story. Maybe reminded of himself when he was young and full of good values, more idealistic, not a broken man?
Also there is some deep mystery with the bird, Miller seen it, and Julie seen it too with Miller entering the room before she was gone. Also there was the protomolecule bird at the end. I wonder if it was just some extra flair or the writers had some kind of scientific explanation for it.
Julie gave Miller a purpose.
Comment deleted by user
Wait, what? Where is that mentioned?
that sounds like some of the weird propaganda the sides believe about each other, like Amos' story about how he heard all Martian Marines are castrated for better efficiency or whatever
but did julie want that. she just met the man. and she's in a highly confused state when she meets miller to boot.
i don't like that this is the most upvoted comment here. that entire kiss scene was incredibly iffy, bordering on sexual assault.
Comment deleted by user
What signals were there that Julie's feelings were mutual? What signals were there that she wanted that?
Talking about how she only has a fraction of her consciousness left doesn't make it a whole lot better. The analogy to real life would be a roofied person who can't consent. you wouldn't really kiss a person in that state.
Let's not romanticise a scene where a dude is kissing a barely conscious girl.
Comment deleted by user
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMdwEGCflmg
Julie pulled Miller in for the kiss while saying "You belong with me."
And in the books, Miller only kisses her hand
Here's Miller who has a crazy crush on this young girl he's never met, but he's also the last human contact that Julie ever has. He brings her out of the protomolecule haze just enough to connect with her in that moment and commits himself to share her fate.
On the surface it's weird and uncomfortable but is that really Julie? Is it just a protomolecule construct built to drive Eros to Earth? Remember, Julie was a racing ship pilot. She'd know how to navigate home. Maybe there's some Julie left in there as a product of her memories being saved and accessed, but certainly not as she was in life as a human. It seems like these former-human pieces of the protomolecule can sometimes be reasoned with if one appeals to their remembrance of humanity. We see this again later in S3.
Comment deleted by user
Bingo
Just one of the large number of reasons why Miller is my fav!
If you have even a passing knowledge of mythology, Eros crashing into Venus is a pretty gigantic metaphor.
Comment deleted by user
So...
<.<
>.>
Eros J.A.M.med into Venus?
*scurries through random ring*
Oh that's interesting. Yin and yang, two halves of a whole and all that. I wonder if there's some reference in those particular initials.
Just wait until people Google where the name "Rocinante" comes from...
That's what she said.
*rimshot*
That is interesting, I never thought about that aspect of it. It's would be a...bizarre metaphor unless it's only about two gods associated with love.
Eros is the Greek name for the Roman Cupid (Venus is a Roman goddess), but also Cupid is Venus's son whom she regularly will employ to make people fall in love. So the idea of them Eros "crashing" into Venus seems like it could be some large metaphor about Oedipal love.
Or just two love gods.
Gods are more important as representations of concepts than they are as characters in a bunch of weird conflicting stories. Eros represents desire and attraction, while Aphrodite (Venus) represents the procreative act itself.
Miller's initial attraction to Julie Mao is erotic. He desires her from afar and when they finally are united in Eros their relationship becomes procreative by going to Venus and nurturing the protomolocule's development.
Are more important to whom/for what?
More important to us if we want to understand the societies who created the mythology within which the Gods exist. The gods aren't characters as much as concepts represented as beings to make them more accessible by using them in fables to illustrate points.
EDIT: Or understand the reason they used this metaphor in The Expanse, which is the real point here.
There are tons of conflicting Greek and Roman stories about the gods. Sometimes Eros (Cupid) is the son of Aphrodite (Venus), and sometimes he isn't. It depends on what was convenient for the story being told.
Even when he is her son, it's a totally metaphorical relationship. Venus (feminine beauty, pleasure, and procreation) gives birth to Eros (lust, desire, and attraction). It's clearer in Greek because they had different words for different types of love, but it's a representation of how the urge to have children and form a family with a woman (agape, or unconditional love) leads to the desire to get it on (eros, or sexual love).
I see it as eros - a symbol of love, perhaps erotic love - crashes into venus - a symbol of feminine beauty
Ok, spell it out for me. Eros is the son of Aphrodite (aka Venus) so I'm a bit confused.
Only in some stories, and that's really not the way mythological gods worked anyway. They were subject to different rules depending on the metaphorical story they were being put into. See my other reply in this thread for my analysis of the metaphor with Miller and Mao.
It's also pretty interesting that the story begins on the Canterbury (at least the series does — I haven't read the books) and almost immediately we go into Miller's tale.
Comment deleted by user
And the sirenum scopuli were the rocks where the Sirens lived and lured sailors to their doom with their irresistible song. Holden managed to go there and leave, but even though he never was there Miller was still drawn in by Julie's siren song.
The Scopuli was attacked by the Anubis. He was the Egyptian god that led the souls of the dead into the underworld.
The Miller's Tale
"The Miller's Tale" (Middle English: The Milleres Tale) is the second of Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales (1380s–1390s), told by the drunken miller Robin to "quite" (a Middle English term meaning requite or pay back, in both good and negative ways) "The Knight's Tale".
The Miller's Prologue is the first "quite" that occurs in the tales (to "quite" someone is to repay them for a service, the service here being the telling of stories).
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Good catch on the Canterbury link.
wink wink, nudge nudge
Know what I mean, guv'nor?
I am no expert, most of this type of stuff usually skips me in tv, movies, books b/c I don't focus on it... but
Miller falls in love with Julies ideals, her dedication to 'fight the good fight'. She is everything he wishes he could be. He is so alone, and lonely in the positions he keeps putting himself in as the outsider that when he finds someone that not only he can relate to, but, look up to, and admire, he falls in love with the idea of it.
Exactly. Julie was driven. She had the world and gave it up to follow here own dreams, and make her own way. She had setbacks and each time learned from her mistakes and came out on top.
I think Miller's love for Julie, is really just a desire to be with her. Similar to Amos' motivation for his loyalty towards, Naomi, Holden, and Anna.
It makes completely no sense why she wluld seemingly love him. My head cannon is that the proto consciousness is completely on autopilot and doesn't fully understand humanity yet.
And we should be realistic and don't forget that shes young and pretty hot, which certainly helps when it comes to attraction.
And makes it very weird... If I see this kind of thing in fiction set in older times, it's fine, I see it as normal at the time... For good or for bad. But on something futuristic? No thanks.
Bro it's been 2 years
Before Miller got the Julie case, he was a nihilistic, uncaring, bribe-accepting asshole. Somewhere along his road, he stopped caring. He's a competent cop, but he has resigned himself to a "me first" mentality, which has led him to be the Belter who works with Earthers to maintain Inner supremacy, because it serves his own interests. And everyone around him knows it, which is my Muss hates him so much at first.
Then he gets the Julie case. And slowly, he comes to realise that this woman whom he has never met, doesn't see life as a zero-sum game as he does. Despite being born with everything where he was born with nothing, she is willing to throw it all away for the good of people like him. She is the kind of person that Miller didn't believe could exist, a truly selfless, caring, decent person. And that inspires him to be better, which first results in him taking her case seriously, followed by travelling to Eros to help her, followed by going on a rampage to avenge her after he finds her dead, to ultimately, giving back to her what she gave him; a reminder if who she is. Remember, protoJulie wanted nothing more than to go home, but going home would've destroyed everything she once loved, so here's Miller telling her that she has to selflessly sacrifice the last wish she will ever have. And he knows that is what he is asking of her. So to make it easier for her, he sacrifices himself, so she will not be alone. That is why they kiss, because in this moment, Miller has reached the potential that Julie awakened in him. She sees him as he has become, someone willing to put the needs of billions ahead of his own. And it gives her enough strength to go past Earth.
That answer your question?
That was amazingly explained and worded, man. Wow. You were able to put what I know in my brain up there, into words. I know it's been four years but, thanks, man!
Edit: Comma
Same here. Agreed. Im watching the show for the third time and had the thought this time around to see what others felt about Miller and mao and came across this post. Well said! 👍👍
I swear some of these people have never felt love. It's very sad actually.. Very well said, and agreed.
In addition to what everyone has said, I have some head canon that Miller got a tiny amount of protomolecule in him in Eros. Not enough to turn him or control him, but enough to link him to the wider protomolecule network. That explains why Julie said she knew him (the protomolecule made her dream him), why he saw her (combined with his own craziness), and why he saw the bird when returning to Julie.
So the force of his love allowed the protomolecule to influence him.
Yea and there's hints that the protomolecue is bending space time here. With the link between them seeming to occur before any protomolecue affects Miller. When Julie "dies" she sees Miller walking up with a hummingbird, and at the same moment we see Miller looking at a real hummingbird on Ceres. We are to assume by that juxtaposition these events are occurring at the same time. Of course it doesn't make sense that Julie, even full of protomolecue goo, would know who or what Miller is at that moment because Miller at that point was nowhere near any protomolecule.
Unless we think about it 4th dimensionally and the cause and effect of this are being reversed. It works because there is a point where Julie and Miller are linked at some point in the future via the protomolecue. It may not seem to make sense but it does because we see the protomolecue has the ability to manipulate spacetime fundamentally, through the ring gates as well as its ability to change inertia and gravity. In its rewiring and absorbing of human consciousness some of that spacetime manipulation leeks out. I think it's a cool and subtle nod to that without overemphasizibg a huge Sci fi concept based in theoretical physics.
I know you don't mean it this way, but in the show that 'real' hummingbird looked pretty damn fake.. made me chuckle.
It was cgi for sure. But it may have looked even more fake to you because it was flapping so slowly, a small nod that on Ceres there is only about a third G.
FWIW, the Julie/Miller relationship in the show is different in kind than in the books.
Yes it was Venus.
Depends on your point of view; it was somewhere between love and infatuation. But that opens the whole conversation on whether or not infatuation is love so..... yeah..... point of view.
I haven't read the books, I plan to when the budget will bear some extra spending so I don't know if they go into any detail, but I think Miller creates this image of Julie as he's researching the case. He becomes obsessed and maybe falls in love with his version of her. I don't know it's as a lover or as a father figure. I think he also sees himself as a bit of a traitor to his people and saving Julie will redeem him
Books definitely did far better at explaining this.
Miller was obsessive over it and hunted into every aspect of her life. He fell in "love" because he saw what he thought was someone who matched his ideals so perfectly, when he could never live up to them. He was practically suicidal before, and she became every meaning to his life. He finished his quest in finding her and redirecting the asteroid, and so that was just that for him.
Was it creepy? Of course. I'm pretty sure they even make sure they illustrate that in the show. But part of writing a compelling character is writing their flaws as well as their good qualities, and just because a character has major issues does not discount them from being the "good guy". Amos is a borderline psychopath and a murderer, but is still loved.
As he investigates Miller has become obsessed with Julie. He has access to a lot of her personal information and reconstructs a story of her misadventure. He has fallen in love with with this reconstruction of her despite never meeting her.
On Eros the protomolecule has also reconstructed a version of Julie. Using Julie as a vital part of it latest attempt to do what ever it is trying to do. The 'Julie' that Miller interacts with is not the real Julie Mao who died before Miller could meet her.
Even though he never met her he is in love. Even though 'she' is merely a tool of the protomolecule he is able to understand her.
I had read the books before I watched the show. On my first watch I didn’t think they sold his love/obsession. I had pictured Miller being more pathetic. But on rewatch it is all there. Jane gives an excellent performance with great subtlety.
I'm on a rewatch too and now everything makes sense. I wasn't able to catch all the subtile hints the first time, because they were, well, really fucking subtile.
The kiss I think gets misread.
Miller thought Julie was dead (correct).
He entered the station knowing there was a risk of infection. He was focused on destroying the thing that killed Julie.
Then, while everyone is freaking out trying to blow up Eros, he has the epiphany that Julie is the 'seed crystal' and her consciousness is basically the central animation for the protomolecule.
I think he makes the decision to stay when he turns off comms and says "time to see what's what". He's committed to seeing this through but already can sense this is probably now a one way trip.
He then encounters this clear recreation. He's not a moron, he knows this simulacrum isn't truly Julie. He disarms himself and tries to keep the proto-Julie calm and persuades Julie's consciousness to redirect Eros.
I've seen people talk about creepy like he's leering at it or reading it poetry. Meanwhile, he's minding the nuke time and then takes off his helmet which is suicide (he already realized he couldn't leave it due to its agitation as he indicated a few sentences earlier). He kept the proto-Julie calm and got it to divert. He wasn't in a romantic moment (or in lust like I saw someone say on twitter). He wasn't saving Julie. Julie was dead.
Did you mean to reply to me or to OP? Not sure I follow what you’re responding to in my comment.
I had the same exact feeling the first time i watched it. I thought it was a little forced. But i went back for a re-watch when S3 dropped and you can pick up hints of Miller falling for Julie, knowingly or otherwise. They are subtle but he increasingly admires her. she is also very vulnerable. Feels betrayed by the OPA and Dawes. She is tired of fighting and ready to let go... something along those lines
Miller had literally gone insane. He wasn't in love, he was obsessed with his only remaining tie to humanity. He'd lost his entire life on Ceres, been through a nightmare on Eros, lost his last strand to what might be a future on the Rocinante, and was now finally on a literal suicide mission. He had slowly descended into madness, and this scene with Julie was both the completion of Miller's descent and his acceptance of it.
This is more clear in the book, but the point is that Miller's actions are not healthy normal human ones. It's supposed to be strange, because Miller has lost his hold on normal.
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Must have missed the love part. I just assumed he was obsessed with finding her cause he feels like she’s his responsibility. More like a father relationship
It wasn't love. It was lust wrapped up in an imaginary relationship with an idea of a woman he has in his head from poking around her apartment and reading her mail; but whom he has never met and who doesn't even know he exists. Typical stalkerish stuff really and it would have been more interesting if they had lent into that rather than trying to give it a veneer of true love.
Infatuation is a better word than lust. I don't think he actually lusted for her that much, or at least said lust wasn't terribly well portrayed.
Yes I agree, that's a bit more on the nose.
I wish I could like your comment more than once
Also they have some psychic connection going on.
In the books there's no psychic connection. He "hallucinates" his ex before becoming infatuated with Julie. I think they did a poor job of portraying this in the show.
Do yourself a huge favor and read the books.
People really should read the books. It's not a hard book to read.
Absolutely. There is also so many more interesting things going on in the books that don't get covered in the show.
I wish they went with this. It would have been really nice, but no. They had to he disgusting creeps about it.
Thomas Jane improvised that bit. It came up in an interview. There's a case to be made that it's inappropriate to kiss Julie's immobilized body whilst she was in that confused state, not even sure of where she was or who she was.
I thought it was Florence Faivre who improvised the kiss
The thing is Julie was also in love, with the idea of OPA maybe even with Dawes and ended up left alone in a dark room, in her last moments, no one came for the rescue. That stayed in the new Julie too. She wanted to go home first, because no one came for her. Now Miller comes in who finally arrives, for her, instead OPA or Dawes. For her could be also some kind of love.
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True of almost anything.
Has anybody here said Miller's actions were healthy? Everybody agrees with you that Miller's actions were creepy. He's a flawed character on a dark show. His actions in that scene are not meant to be virtuous. On the contrary, they're meant to show that he is not in a normal human state of mind. He's literally gone insane.
Your attacks on everyone else in this thread are out of step with what people are saying. Nobody disagrees with your basic point, but you're launching personal attacks against everyone anyway. That's toxic behavior!
I think a lot of you are totally forgetting that he was INVESTIGATING A MISSING PERSON as a cop/detective. You super sensitive and brainless people out there call him creepy? It was HIS JOB to find her. Even after he was fired, that just motivated him even more to find her. The fact that he fell in love with her is not at all uncommon. Any detective actively searching for a missing person will "fall in love" with the missing person, in one form or degree or another. The more he learned about her, the more he admired her. Admiration is the root of real love, not lust. The fact that he was older than her, is not a deterrent to his admiration and eventual love. It might have been when playing house and day to day life, but it never got that far. As far as the "rapey" kiss goes, by this time, she was practically a mini-goddess through the power of the protomolecule, wise beyond her years before the protomolecule, well over 18, and she leaned into the kiss. I have zero doubt that if she did not want to be kissed, Miller would have been atomized and assimilated instantly.
Congrats. Calling us brainless legitimizes that other person's toxic behavior. You could not have made a less effective comment if you'd tried.
alright but there's a huge butt:
The scene setting (music, shot composition) was implying really heavy that we were to view this kiss/interaction as romantic and climactic. And there are plenty of people who saw it as consensual and romantic as well, given the Julie x Miller fanart and compilation vids.
If they properly wanted to convey insanity on the part of miller, they shouldn't have used that music for one. and maybe leave out the kiss entirely. It just falls into way too many tropes and clichés all at once.
Thank you for a reply that is not toxic. We can talk about this.
The kiss was undeniably creepy and weird and it did rub me the wrong way too. But I can see why it was a meaningful artistic choice.
My recollection of the music was that it was peaceful but not explicitly sexy. That reflects the point of the scene, which was really twofold: Half to show that Miller and Julie have both lost their human minds, and also crucially half to show that Miller and Julie need each other to be at peace with their loss.
The climax of the scene, and really the entire novel/season, is the part where Miller convinces Julie to sacrifice herself by crashing into Venus rather than racing to the comfort of home on Earth. Only Julie can save humanity, by turning away from Earth (the one place she desperately wants to go). And only Miller can reach Julie to convince her to do that, because only Miller knows what kind of life Julie's lived, and because only Miller has lost so much of his own humanity that he's willing to give himself over to the protomolocule in order to communicate with her.
The only way to save humanity is for these two no-longer-human characters to come together and sacrifice themselves.
So the kiss was a goodbye kiss. It was symbolic of Miller and Julie's final necessary connection, and their final peace together as jointly inhuman and lost, but still wistfully caring for humanity enough to save it. That aspect of the kiss' symbolism probably could have been accomplished just as well and without the creepiness by having them reach out and touch hands, but the music had to be serene to communicate the characters' peacefulness at their situation.
Now let's talk a little about why a kiss--a sexual gesture--was chosen over touching hands. It's clear from the deeper characterization we get in the book that the kiss wasn't about sexual gratification. In the book, the first step towards both of them losing their humanity is both of them losing their sexuality.
Miller's career and the resulting erosion of his human empathy destroyed his marriage, and pushed him over the edge to only caring about work. He's never with a woman again (despite the constant sex-for-sale around him), and he never fantasizes about Julie sexually during any of his hallucinations about her. Meanwhile, Julie suffered a rape when she first moved to the Belt, and spends her remaining time on Ceres struggling--and failing--to care again about sexual companionship.
This is why a kiss specifically made some artistic sense, rather than having them just touch hands. Their goodbye-to-humanity touch is a final homage to the first part of humanity that each of them lost. It's the full circle of their character arcs, a goodbye to who they were years ago, not just in episode 1.
Of course, for the symbolism to work it needs to be clear that Julie is OK with the kiss, which it wasn't. And either way everything about these characters is creepy and unhealthy.
And all that said, I think it's pretty undeniable that not very many people get the symbolism, that it's therefore not very effective, and that for a larger portion of readers the kiss is a distraction and the sexual-but-not-sexual-but-kind-of themes of that scene come across as more gratuitous than meaningful. It wasn't clear enough, so it failed as a scene.
But, y'know, we're here to talk about it. And we can do it like adults.
I want to say "don't be so quick to judge", but the top comments are all about miller and how he's so in love and not focusing on julie's perspective, opinion or feelings on the matter (because there are none, because she didn't know him until five minutes prior to kissing).
I'm just glad they didn't bring it up at all in later episodes.
I think he saw everything in her he couldnt but wanted to be. Her case gave his life meaning, a purpose that he wanted to fulfill. I'm pretty sure he didnt really see it like that, he thought of it as love, i guess. Anyway, i still found this scene on Eros really touching and beautiful, because they had some kind of deeper connection, for me at least.
(Pardon my bad grammar, german here.)
Maybe this well made vid would help a little with putting things in context : https://youtu.be/TrO5JBByuD4. I absolutely loved Miller's character, sad to see him go... Well, in this form anyway
I can see why he get obsessed with her, but why was she all like "I'm fine with whoever you are doing this"