Tolkien's works
Since this author seems to be of interest to many, here's a thread for all things Tolkien-related.
While I enjoyed the LOTR books I have views on the portrayal of women in them. It was very much a Boys' own adventure, periodically enlivened by the remote Arwen, the frosty Eowyn, the garrulous Ioreth, the stay at home Rosie Cotton, the rapacious Lobelia Baggins, and the evil spider Shelob. Only Galadriel comes out of it well. Goldberry doesn't seem to have much personality at all.
I liked the Orcs. They could be refreshingly rude and sparky. I don't think the films did them any favours.
Over to you...
While I enjoyed the LOTR books I have views on the portrayal of women in them. It was very much a Boys' own adventure, periodically enlivened by the remote Arwen, the frosty Eowyn, the garrulous Ioreth, the stay at home Rosie Cotton, the rapacious Lobelia Baggins, and the evil spider Shelob. Only Galadriel comes out of it well. Goldberry doesn't seem to have much personality at all.
I liked the Orcs. They could be refreshingly rude and sparky. I don't think the films did them any favours.
Over to you...
Comments
On the positive side, if I could live anywhere in literature it would be Rivendell. Or maybe Isengard (before Saruman). However, I think the movies may have influenced me a lot in that regard…
Frosty Eowyn thawed, once she realised that Aragorn was not for her, and seems to have found a worthy partner in the feisty Faramir.
Rapacious Lobelia became a more sympathetic character in the end, given her spirited defiance of the evil Men sent in by Sharkey/Saruman...
Rosie Gamgee nee Cotton provides a useful excuse for Sam to stay at home, at least until she dies...bit of a cardboard cutout, otherwise.
Ioreth provides some welcome light relief amongst the horrors of the Siege of Minas Tirth, but her garrulity is conveniently cut off by Tolkien Aragorn at several points...
Galadriel is a terrific character - *ALL SHALL LOVE ME, AND DESPAIR!* - but, as she herself says, she passes the test...
Shelob is a spider (or *an evil thing in spider form*), and so is, in a way, true to her nature - AIUI, female spiders are formidable creatures IRL...
Goldberry? I could never quite see the point of her, or of Tom Bombadil, her husband (?). My impression is that Tolkien invented the pair of them and worked them into the story (if it were not for Tom rescuing the hobbits from the Barrow, there would not have been a Sword of Westernesse to help destroy the Lord of the Ringwraiths), but was then at a loss to know what to do with them next...
One commentator remarked that the Orcs at least had a sense of esprit de corps, though even when arguing and fighting amongst themselves, they would have instantly turned on anyone else and slain them...
In the book, the Orcs come across as very ugly, wiry, stocky, hairy beings - the films made them larger and (for some reason) slimy...
I agree with the comments so far about how women generally are portrayed in the books, but I’ll admit that even so, I didn’t like what Peter Jackson did with Arwen. (But that pales in comparison to how I didn’t like what he did with Faramir.)
And I do think Eowyn is the exception in regard to the general portrayal of women. Yes, she is very frosty at first, but she is a strong character who knows her own mind and makes her own choices, rather than waiting for a man to make a decision. And as a result, she plays a key role in the war.
Goldberry, like Tom Bombadil, is in a class alone.
ETA: in the other thread, @Bishops Finger said: Well, The Silmarillion and Galadriel’s story make that capability of sin and rebellion quite clear, without any orcs involved.
As for battle scenes, my feeling is that the books keep them relatively short, unlike Peter Jackson, who drags them on forever.
Whereas that feels completely natural to me. If you went through Mordor with your father, you'd still call him Dad, wouldn't you? You wouldn't start calling him by his given name.
Sam calling him "Mister Frodo" is a sign of their relationship.
I loved the stories as a child, enjoyed all the films but don't feel much urge to get deeper into it.
Incidentally, I think there are some interesting parallels with Don Quixote and would quite like to see LoTR reimagined as a farce.
Bilboe and Frodo are, of course, confirmed bachelors
Yes, but the relationship it is a sign of is: master and servant.
That’s the opposite of the warmth of ‘Dad’ for me, and more like someone still ‘knowing his place’.
Do others have favourite bits of the poetry / songs?
When I was younger, I generally skipped the songs, but I came to see them as integral to the story .
* I love how the Rohirrim speak Old English, and this poem follows the form of Anglo-Saxon poetry, based on a specific form of alliteration rather than rhyme.
Here's a recording made in 1972, with baritone Stewart Hendrickson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dmRwj6QFIA
Two other female characters worth mentioning are Mrs Maggot, who helps the hobbits on their way to Crickhollow by presenting them with a basket of mushrooms, and the godlike Vala, Elbereth Gilthoniel, whose name is mentioned or invoked in several places. She is regarded as the highest of the Valar, and is greatly reverenced and venerated by the Elves. Given that Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic, she has been likened to the Blessed Virgin Mary, though her role in the mythology is different.
The hymn to Elbereth which appears in LOTR is a lovely piece of quasi-religious poetry, and sounds beautiful when sung in Elvish:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Elbereth_Gilthoniel
BTW, Swann’s setting of Namárië came from Tolkien himself; Tolkien sang for Swann how he had always heard the song in his head. He can be heard singing it here.
Those who pick up on a Gregorian chant-like quality in Tolkien’s tune have good ears—it is essentially the melody to which the Lamentations of Jeremiah are chanted in the service of Tenebrae. A very apt and poignant choice for Galadriel’s lament.
I particularly like this version, by The Fellowship, who set every poem and song in LOTR to music.
Tolkien himself had quite a good voice, too. His pronunciation is, as you would expect, perfect.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/364826966792
I might treat myself to one of the reprints, as an un-birthday present.
An interesting point about Elves is that while they live indefinitely long lives, they can die, and there is no guarantee that they will live again.
🎶🎻🎵🎹
Same. Gimli was turned into the Plucky Comic Relief, the hobbits were basically treated like children and patronised by everyone (except possibly Gandalf) and all the cultural differences between humans, elves, dwarves and hobbits were erased. I could just about see Rivendell as an Art Deco hippy commune, but what happened to Elrond's karaoke evening? The only positive change (imnsho) was that the films actually made Aragorn likeable, but that doesn't excuse what they did to Faramir and Denethor's characters.
Some did, as far as I was concerned - Gandalf, Legolas, Boromir, Theoden, Arwen, and Eowyn - but others didn't. Aragorn should have been taller, and a bit more rugged-looking (he's 80+ at the time of the War of the Ring, but looking less than his actual age, as he himself says).
The films were, in many ways, flawed masterpieces, but, if you have your own images of the characters and places, stick with them!
Voices only, of course, but IIRC Michael Hordern was an excellent Gandalf, with Ian Holm as Frodo (he played Bilbo in the Jackson films), John le Mesurier as Bilbo, Bill Nighy as Sam, and Robert Stephens as Aragorn.
Anyone else remember the radio version? Necessarily foreshortened, but IMHO very well done anyway.
My dad loved it!!
Anybody who'd read the books would have their own mental images of the characters. I can only say I never visualised a balding, gap-toothed Elrond, but there you go, everyone's different.
That radio adaptation sounds great. Lots of great actors in it.
Worst of all, he and Liv Tyler had zero chemistry. He's supposed to be her beloved father!
My worst experience of all three films is that they got monotonous quickly. One skirmish or a big fight, okay. That's a given. The evil must be vanquished. But the battles got bigger and... loooooooonger. I worked in a movie theater when the second and third films had come out. Yeah, it was great that I got to have a nice toilet break whilst the movies were playing on and on and on. But, it also meant that I had to hear those loud-ass battles continuously through the theater walls. On and on, day after day. I wanted to stab myself with a pencil. 😅. AND! I was making a mere $6.50/hr. at that time. Yippee for Georgia state's crappy minimum wage.
Anyway...
Why? Didn't he spend a huge amount of time in the outdoors? As a ranger?
As for how that works on someone who spends a lot of time outdoors, I don't know. Andor is quite far north so presumably not a lot of strong sun. Aragorn makes sure he and the hobbits avoid travelling in the open in the middle of the day so as not to be spotted by agents of the Enemy; that seems to be his regular practice. Perhaps also the Numenorean descent is a factor.