A place to post an opinion you accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate.
Hey guys! Megamind is one of my favorite movies of all time, and over many rewatches, I’ve cultivated the opinion in the title. I can’t really blame Megamind for lying to Roxanne like he did. A few reasons come to mind:
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He originally didn’t intend to lie. He pretended to be someone else to covertly blow up the Metroman statue, and ended up rolling with it when he bonded with Roxanne. If he had set out with the intention of getting Roxanne to fall in love with him, that would change my view.
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He was right when he said that his blue skin and distinctive appearance would ruin his romantic chances. To me, what Megamind did isn’t much morally different than someone getting plastic surgery and not revealing that history to suitors. I don’t think that’s wrong to do, either.
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Roxanne (nor anyone else) wouldn’t have bothered to learn what Megamind’s past and true personality were like if they knew they were talking to Megamind (based on his actions of, you know, taking over the city).
I think Megamind was well and truly trapped by his exterior and his persona as “the villain,” and the only way to escape it was to lie about who he was. If you feel differently, please share your thoughts :)
Things that will most likely change my view, though, are going to be evidence against points 1, 2, and 3, though.
u/Squishiimuffin (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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It sounds like you might have this opinion because otherwise it might diminish you enjoyment of the movie. Instead of arguing that his actions were moral I'd like to point out that characters can take immoral actions and later regret and be forgiven for them. Megamind is literally an antihero, who would especially be expected to act immorally, at least initially in the story. That immorality is essential to his later growth as a character, and eventual redemption.
!delta that’s an interesting way to frame the movie, actually! I almost like it better than my interpretation. As it stands, I hold the opinion that Megamind was always good on the inside, and it just took the right life circumstances to bring out his true nature.
But I think my view might actually be diminishing his character growth. It adds more to the story if he was bad and became good. I don’t know that my view is changed per se, but your perspective has me thinking.
I would say one of the core ideas in the movie is the meaninglessness of calling people good or bad.
The good and bad guy fight each other because they represent conflicting environments they grew up in, not a deep ideological disagreement. The bad guy comes from an antagonized, marginalized section of the community and views the rest of society as an enemy. The good guy is appointed the protector of that society, but while equally lacking agency in that role since he didn’t choose his powers. Both are defined by the role their circumstances give them.
The good guy grows tired of this role forced on him and abandons it, leaving the bad guy to win. However, the bad guy feels hollow in this victory since he had no identity outside of opposition to the good. Similarly, if the good guy had won, we may have seen the idea of a bad guy change so that a new enemy could be found to define goodness.
The bad guy has to literally create good to make his own identity of bad work within the system of good vs bad he’s familiar with. However, the new good guy he seeks to create is actually more of a bad guy than he is, because the new guy represents someone who believes he is good while being actually bad. Meanwhile the old bad guy knew he was bad and thought it was his role.
The new bad guy could destroy the system as a whole because of this new ideological status. To preserve the system, the old bad guy again tried to create good but this time steps into the role of good guy to defeat the new bad guy, even getting approval from the old good guy.
In the end, the system wins. The need for an enemy is so strong that whether good or bad, everyone has one, and even creates one. The old good guy was replaced by a new good guy, who came out of the bad side. The bad side remains intact, as nothing fundamentally changed about society that would stop new ones from emerging. Thus the cycle is doomed to continue as someone challenges the new good guy and becomes a new new bad guy.
This is why being an arms dealer is profitable, kids. Megamind is really a story about regime change and Hegelian dialectics.
!delta
This is a well articulated take on the movie, which isn't actually as dark as others might perceive it. I really enjoyed your thought
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to u/Trucker2827 (6∆).
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Wow… your interpretation is… dark…
But at the same time, I can’t really fight anything you said. Can I award an anti-delta? Lmfao. You’re not wrong, I just hate that you said it.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to u/ajahanonymous (1∆).
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I agree with this, and by the end of the film Roxanne realizes she loves him and they have an HEA. It’s okay for villains to do bad things and then grow from them.
An HEA?
Happily ever after.
to counter #3, there was no reason for her or anyone to think he had a criminal background because he didn’t just change his appearance. He took someone else’s identity. Someone she already knew somewhat and already had some expectations from. You can’t just say he was changing his appearance, he stole someone else’s identity.
!delta fuck, I forgot about Bernard. He was actually a real person, even if he was kind of a dick lol. I still think that changing his appearance was fine, and I think consequentially for the movie that’s all he did— but identity theft is not the same hiding his identity. Megamind did technically screw over Bernard.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to u/Kazleira (1∆).
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I strongly disagree with this point. Megamind had not permanently altered his appearance like with plastic surgery, he was wearing a temporary disguise. Based on the film, he does eventually intend to reveal himself and change back in appearance.
Additionally, there is a huge difference because Megamind and Roxanne have history that is relevant to their relationship that Megamind is concealing through this disguise. Imagine how you would feel if someone's abuser got plastic surgery to change their appearance and then dated their former victim under a new name and identity. It would be rightfully called a terrible act.
I do agree with your first and third points, and this might have been the only way for the relationship to work and for him to change (at least, for him to change within the length of a movie). But, it was still not morally justified for him to treat Roxanne that way, she deserved to know the truth about who she was dating, even if that would have ruined the relationship.
I believe this is the most relevant counterpoint. If someone has done horrible things and they wish to improve themselves and start over, they have every right.
But it's not fair to ask people subjected to their previous misdeeds to understand, and to fake your identity to do so. If someone really has improved, it should be decided by the victim whether or not they're willing to get them a second chance.
He's a cartoon villain though.
Roxanne seemed awfully calm while being held captive by him. It feels like the Metro City treats him more like a comedic pest than an actual threat.
She was kidnapped so frequently, she had a discontinued "Frequent Victim Card"
!delta
I can't unthink that now
This sub needs more of this lows stake fuckery, this whole thought process is amazing! And inspiration for a whole generation of serial killers and suspense authors.
Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to u/DuhChappers (30∆).
Delta System Explained | Deltaboards
The counterpoint to this is: Megamind was only playing the part of villain because he internalized what society told him. That he can’t be good, he can only be bad.
That’s not his true nature but he internalized the insults until he ended up believing it. He had to un-learn that during the movie’s events.
So whatever he did to Roxanne wasn’t sincere on his part, and you can also tell Roxanne was more annoyed at the inconvenience rather than feeling abused by it. (Remember she openly mocked Megamind’s attempts at being threatening and it’s played off as being an unintentionally-amusing cliche.)
Because the point is that Megamind is actually bad at being evil. His idea of evil is cartoonish and ineffective. His idea of being evil is “fighting Metroman” and Roxanne gets roped into it, but it’s like he’s forcing her to play a game rather than torturing her. Because it is, in essence, all a game to Megamind, one he’s felt forced by society to play.
So your analogy is a good one, it’s just not supported by the movie. Because if it was, the viewers wouldn’t root for Megamind in the end at all.
This is all correct up until it seems like he has actually succeeded in killing Metroman. At that point, as far as anyone knows, he is actually a murderer and what's more he killed Roxanne's friend. He loses all the benefits of being bad at evil after that, even assuming nothing that bad happened before.
Also, even if you were groomed into thinking that kidnapping people is good, that does not make your victim feel any better. As I said in another comment, Roxanne is well used to the kidnapping at this point but the first couple of times were probably very scary and traumatic.
Also, we root for Megamind because we know it's a movie. In real life if he did all the same things he would be a monster and no one would like him.
I mean, yeah, but that’s kinda pointless to say. In real life Tom and Jerry are attempted murderers. Sometimes it’s fruitless to apply realistic standards to movies.
Well since that's what OP is doing that's what I'm doing as well!
I don’t buy that Megamind’s history with Roxanne was akin to an abuser and victim. It’s clearly demonstrated in the introduction to the movie that Megamind poses no threat to Roxanne, even to scare her. Not for lack of trying on Megamind’s part, granted— but in the end I think they act more like co-workers than abuser and victim.
Even assuming that kidnapping is not equivalent to abuse, which is honestly a stretch, it was still completely inappropriate for him to hide his past with her. I love this movie as well and I remember the opening well. Roxanne is unafraid of all of Megamind's attempts to scare her because he's done it so many times. And sure, she's mostly just chilling assuming that Metro Man will save her, but it's implied this is just due to the repetition of it at this point. It's fair to assume that Megamind did genuinely scare her at some point in the past. It's likely there is some trauma there that Roxanne deserves to work out on her own terms.
And even going beyond that, the point still stands that he has not done a permanent transformation. He is not going to keep living as a white librarian for the rest of his life. He's going back to being headed and blue eventually, so continuing to lie to her in the meantime is pretty immoral.
Megamind is not a movie where a good guy does good things, obviously. It's a movie about someone who does genuinely bad things and learns from them. I think saying that he was justified from the start actually undermines the message of growth that the movie wants to show. You gotta start from a somewhere bad for improvement to matter.
It's a movie about a person who, because of his appearance and circumstances of his birth/arrival on earth, was shoved into the role of 'bad guy', instead of being given love. He wasn't evil. Society declared him 'evil'. And twisted anything he did to fit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzTyvC2zHQE He tries to make popcorn, like Metroman did, and gets in trouble instead. Metroman picks a girl on crutches instead of him.
I agree that society forced him to be evil, but that does not mean he was not genuinely evil. It's not his fault he was abandoned and made fun of as a kid, and we should have genuine sympathy for him. That scene is a good example. But his later actions need no twisting to be evil. Kidnapping someone and trying to kill a superhero are bad things to do. Giving a random incel superpowers with no oversight is a bad thing to do. And lying to Roxanne so he can feel like he has a friend is a bad thing to do.
Megamind is about someone realizing that just because he was forced into a box does not mean he is stuck that way. He can change and be better. But it only has meaning if we acknowledge that the box was there and was not just superficial. If he was good all along, he cannot improve. And I think he does improve a lot through the movie.
I always took the stance that Megamind was a good guy deep down, but was never able to show it growing up. And it takes Roxanne and Metroman to show him that he can show his true nature, because he won’t always get burned for doing so. Or that even if he does get burned for it, it’s worth doing anyway.
Can you show me evidence that Megamind actually changed, and not that his true nature was revealed?
People do not actually have true natures, I think. We are all a combination of nature and nurture, and both are true to us. Nature is not any more true than nurture is. If the reason I am good is because my parents did a good job raising me, I am no less good.
Megamind's nature is not bad, but I don't think it's good either. I'd say the defining feature of Megamind's nature is that he wants approval. In the earlier parts of the movie, he does try to do good things. But this is portrayed after Metroman has done something good and gotten a lot of praise, so Megamind wants that too. He is rejected and that hurts him, teaches him that he will never be loved because of who he is. That's the nurture he internalizes that the rest of the movie needs to break.
Roxanne does not merely reveal goodness that was there all along, because his instincts are still to be bad. Keep in mind that he is grooming Titan while dating her, he is literally leading a double life where he is setting up for more Good vs. Evil showdowns with him as evil. What changes is what he gets approval and rewards for. With her, he acts less evil and then she likes him more. He gets the approval that he was always denied as a kid. And then when he is found out and rejected, she tells him something very important - it's his actions that drove them apart. It's not his self, it's not that he is unlovable. She teaches him that if he acts differently, he can literally be someone different. And so he changes.
And also, sorry this is a lot, I think Minion is an important character to mention here. Megamind literally always had a friend and confidante who believed in him and allowed him to be himself. But because Megamind was actually bad, Minion told him that was good. I think that if Megamind always secretly wanted to be good, he would have shown it with Minion.
So I would say that she did a lot more than just reveal his inner nature. I think Roxanne showed Megamind a truth about himself that he never would have believed on his own. And she showed that to him in part because he wronged her, in a genuine and personal sense.
By the time "Bernard" is dating Roxanne, Megamind has (successfully, as far as either he or Roxanne are aware at the time) vaporized Metro Man, rendering him a considerably greater threat (and a terrible person to boot). And Roxanne reacts accordingly when she discovers his identity. This is not the face of a woman who is going "aw shucks, guess I do love you".
Roxanne is horrified, shoves him away, immediately runs away from the date, walks through the rain holding herself in clear distress, then lists exactly why she doesn't like him (a list that includes "you destroyed Metro Man" and not "you are blue", by the way) in a breaking voice. When she realizes his feelings are genuine, her exact words are "do you really think that I would ever be with you?"
Even Megamind himself is clearly feeling godawful throughout the whole scene, and not just because she doesn't love him back. His response to the question is a quiet, ashamed, "no". He hangs his head in shame as the scene ends, because he knows as well as the audience does that what he was doing was wrong.
Right, Roxanne is rightfully horrified by him lying to her. I don’t dispute that. But she’s not in danger. She’s not running for her life or anything like that.
I also disagree with your interpretation of Roxanne’s actions, there. Part of the reason she was so horrified was because she loved him back. But she couldn’t reconcile her feelings about the person she knew he was (while being Bernard) with the person she thinks he is (evil Megamind who killed Metroman).
She doesn't have to be in danger for it to be abuse. He started out as a villain. It's a movie for all ages, so the abuse isn't "that bad." But we definitely see at least kidnapping.
He literally kidnaps her lol
I mean, yes, but within the film's tone it's treated more or less like he stole her sandwich from the office fridge. Obviously we don't even need to get to the Bernard stuff if we take the movie completely at face value.
Which Roxanne literally jokes about in the movie lol
So? That doesn't change anything. IRL victims of abuse frequently make jokes about it to cover up the trauma. The situation obviously isn't that serious in the movie but it's still abusive to kidnap someone, tie them to a chair, and threaten them.
I like Megamind as well, but he doesn't really do a proper penance just be cause it was easier for him to be bad, and while his schemes get eventually thwarted, they were put in motion, and people were affected. Plenty of ex incarcerated take the uphill steps to better themselves without deception.
If you found out the coworker you'd been cheerily bonding with over slack messages was actually your infamous coworker, whom you know as the office kiss ass and snitch and everyone's hates them because they backstabbed their way to the top, you, like Roxanne, would be absolutely justified in an immediate negative reaction because you know you'll be tarred with the same brush for saying "But they're really a good person" but also, since they really are capable of the acts that got them where they are, you would be endorsing those acts by association.
Why would you be endorsing acts by association? That seems weird to me. If I was the co worker you described, I don’t think I would have an immediate negative reaction. I’d actually think the reverse, that everyone else has somehow been tricked because my personal experience with this person contradicts their reputation.
"If you hang out with pigs, you'll also get mud on you" is what I think the saying goes.
Roxanne is in media - think about what happened to everyone who ever associated with George Pell, or Weinstein.
Even if they treated the person well?
And MM was hardly 'an abuser'. Yeah, he kidnapped her, but never actually hurt her. In fact, if the events we see in the movie are typical, MM would injure himself.
Yes? Like it's fine for a story. It's ok to enjoy the story and like the characters. But yes kidnapping falls under abuse even if you don't "hurt" the person. Kidnapping, by definition, is not treating that person well.
Also it's part of his whole character arc. Going from bad to good. I'm curious what people think his character arc is if he just goes from misunderstood to understood.
Um, that would be an arc: going from misunderstood to understood.
But it's really more like 'Going from acting like everyone expects him to act (ie: like a criminal) to acting like he wants to act (ie: the hero who gets the girl).'
That would be everyone else's arc, his character wouldn't change.
He never actually hurt her, sure, but he outright killed her friend. That's not something to just gloss over.
No , he didn't. Her 'friend' faked his own death. Partly to get away from her.
It was extremely obvious that MM didn't expect the plan to work. He's a cartoon villain- they are never successful.
Can we talk about the fact that Metroman really was so overpowered he was nerfing himself for the charade the whole time?
How can he be morally justified in an immoral behavior that stemmed from committing another immoral action of blowing up a statue?