Mark Gatiss Interview: Helena Bonham Carter, Nolly, and More
In the spirited new miniseries Nolly, Mark Gatiss (Sherlock, Doctor Who) plays opposite star Helena Bonham Carter in one of Nolly’s most campy and delightful scenes as real-life figure Larry Grayson, an inimitable entertainer who shared a close and enduring friendship with Noele “Nolly” Gordon. Mark Gatiss shared insights on his character, the show, and his co-star in a conversation with MASTERPIECE during the show’s broadcast run.
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Nolly‘s drama centers on the star of the British soap opera, Crossroads. So what is there for an American audience to love in Nolly?
I think it’s actually a universal story. I often think this about playing real people—I’m playing John Gieldgud at the moment [on the West End in The Motive and The Cue], and it’s interesting—if you don’t know the people involved, then the story has to work on its own terms, which it does in Nolly. You totally get it, the way Russell [Russell T Davies, writer and executive producer] so cleverly sets up the whole world and you know that she’s the matriarch of this world. And then it’s a bit like famous play The Killing of Sister George—she’s knocked off her perch. Russell said to me that it’s like a queen losing her kingdom. So the paraphernalia of a soap, which is very familiar to American audiences, is incidental. The drama is about this woman who can’t be replaced, being replaced.
What would you tell Sherlock and Doctor Who fans who are considering tuning in to Nolly?
Well, gosh, it’s in their ballpark—Russell created it! But it’s also a love letter not just to British television but just to television. It’s so much fun. If you do know Crossroads, then it’s unbelievably accurate, and my favorite bit is when they actually have that real row, but it’s on camera, and it’s like an episode of Crossroads—it’s so clever that it actually happens just as it would, as if it was the drama. But there’s an awful lot there because it’s not just about a love letter to television, it’s about these great personalities. And Helena [Bonham Carter] plays Nolly almost like a great Doctor Who baddie, in a way. I can’t make false comparisons—there’s no investigation in that sense or time travel, but it’s a lot to enjoy.
Were you a Crossroads viewer as a child?
I was, yes. We didn’t follow many soaps in my house. I used to watch Coronation Street a bit but my mother used to listen to a radio soap called Waggoners’ Walk. I remember sitting under the ironing board as a child listening to that. And the theme music still triggers me. It just makes me feel like I’m five.
But TV soaps were much more irregular. I used to run home from school to watch General Hospital, the British one. Crossroads had a reputation for being incredibly cheap and a bit silly. And I remember it vividly because it was in an odd slot, almost like a children’s slot, tea time, 5:30, 6:00. I have very strong memories of it and certain characters in it—very surely Benny, obviously, and Shughie McFee, the Scottish chef, and Noele Gordon. I remember very vividly when she was fired because it was headline news everywhere. It was unthinkable. And she was there for forever. But it’s a very familiar pattern that, isn’t it? A new producer comes in, the axe man, and then the first thing they go for is the most obvious, the tallest tree in the forest.
Did you watch The Generation Game, which your Nolly character, Larry Grayson, hosted?
Oh, I was a big fan of Larry Grayson, and I remember vividly seeing him early on. In playing the part, I watched so much stuff, and it gave me a new appreciation of just how masterful he was—with just a little look to camera [makes a knowing, campy face] and a tiny little raised eyebrow—it’s absolutely filthy! It’s filthy, but he gets away with it. And there’s a point where he’s completely in control of his audience.
I was a huge fan of Bruce Forsyth [The Generation Game’s original host], and then Larry Grayson took over, and I have to say, it’s the rare, very rare case of a format being better. I watched a documentary about Larry, and the producer of The Generation Game said, “This shouldn’t have worked.” It was hugely popular and a big risk, but it just works.
But it was wonderful. I used to absolutely love it, and there was so much coded gay stuff there that it’s quite remarkable now. His theme tune was “The Man That Got Away.” There’s a compilation of clips you can find, and one section [begins at 8:33] where they have on, I think it’s US Marines, with white helmets, and it’s absolutely brilliant. There’s this huge, butch Marine Sergeant Major, and he’s crying with laughter. It’s just so funny.
What can you tell us about Larry Grayson and Noele Gordon’s relationship?
Well, you know this is a very familiar story of a close relationship between a gay man and a devoted female admirer. But people genuinely thought they were engaged to be married. They used to joke about it constantly, but people thought they were, and as Larry says in the drama, “How can they not see it?” Incredibly, people didn’t. But I just love that he was a big fan of her. I think for him, the idea of suddenly being friends with this woman he actually worshiped from the telly, was just impossible. But they got on immediately, and they were completely inseparable.
In one of my absolute favorite clips from one of his shows, she comes on, they do a song together—they do “Anything You Can Do” or something like that—and he just goes, “Go on. Off you go now. Off you go.” And she goes off into the wings, and he just looks to the audience and says, “She drinks.” It’s delightful. But clearly, they had this sparring relationship. It was just wonderful, really.
What was it like working with Helena Bonham Carter?
I’m actually afraid to say that [Larry and Nolly’s dynamic] was exactly what Helena and I were like! It really was. It just worked straight away. Literally, the very first day of filming, we were filming This Is Your Life, and I said, “Oh, Nolly, I do love you.” And I said to Helena between takes, “This is very strange for me”—because we are almost exactly the same age—“But I had a poster for A Room with a View on my wall when I was a student.” I’d met her a couple of times, but we’d never worked together before. And then we did, and it was just like we’d always done it. We had such a scream, we screamed with laughter. It was just delightful, so lovely. It completely mirrored Larry and Nolly, really.
In Episode 2, there’s a scene in Larry’s dressing room that tells us everything we need to know about their deep friendship—teasing, affection, and vulnerability, and also a sense of time going by and their time being over. Can you talk about that incredible scene?
As you say, it’s everything, it’s got all the bits, as it were. It’s so funny—when he’s getting changed and you briefly see his corset; and when she says, “I’m going off on the QEII,” and he goes, “You what?” It’s so camp. And then it changes, and suddenly it’s later, and they’ve found a couple of glasses of whiskey, and it’s just about passage of time. And he’s given up The Generation Game. And he wasn’t to know, but I think he’d thought that there’d be something else, but there wasn’t. He quit at the height of his fame, but it never happened again. Of course, Nolly did actually manage a second act by doing Gypsy and everything. And that’s why there’s a three-part drama in her story, and there isn’t one in Larry—there isn’t really a story in that.
But I think it’s really just so beautifully written. And it’s terribly moving. He says they’re like two old dinosaurs bellowing into the night. Everyone must feel like that at some stage—of course they do, because you think the parade passes by. So again, that’s what makes it universal.
What do you imagine we might see from Larry Grayson if he were having his career today?
Well in a way, he slots into a very familiar niche, but I’ll tell you something which I do find very interesting, and I talked to Russell a lot about this: I was working with [actor] Simon Callow a few years ago when the Larry Grayson documentary was on, and I came in the next day and was eulogizing about it because I thought it was so brilliant. And Simon nodded along and then he said, “You see, I can only ever think of him as the enemy.” And that’s because Simon was very involved in gay politics and gay theater in the ’70s, and people like Larry Grayson and John Inman [of Are You Being Served?] were the face of public campery. And despite their technical skill, for people like Simon, that was not what they wanted to be, to appear as.
And whereas Russell thinks that Larry and John Inman and people like that were trailblazers, I think the truth is somewhere between the two. I can totally get both points of view, because he was taking this outrageous smut into people’s living rooms, but at the same time, he’s a safe figure because he’s sort of neutered. He’s not really a sexual being. If he was around today, those niches are still available, and I find that very interesting. And what that means for out entertainers and actors now is also very interesting, because of the extent to which people still don’t want you to scare the horses, they want you to stay on the right side of acceptable. It’s a very interesting debate, really.
Is Larry Grayson among the top most-fun characters you’ve ever gotten to play?
Oh, yes. My only regret is I didn’t have bigger teeth! If you look at early footage, he really does have vulpine fangs. And then obviously, he got some money and had his teeth done, which completely changes the shape of anyone’s face.
I think he’s just wonderful and a really fascinating man. It was just a delightful experience. People often ask me if I have a list of things I’d like to play but honestly my favorite things are when they come out of the blue. So when I just got this email from Russell saying, “Would you like to play Larry Grayson?” Oh, yes. I’d love to. But I wouldn’t have thought of it.
