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It never occurred to me until right now, but the Dead's emergence in the 60s coincides with jazz greatness.
As a band that would play live with no real plan for how each song will unfold on a given night, I now realize that they may have taken a cue from jazz in choosing this format for their concerts.
Essentially, are jam bands a product of rock copying jazz?
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Most of the Dead have discussed their love of jazz. Phil Lesh was a classically trained jazz trumpeter before learning to play base.
Keith Godchaux was a jazz pianist.
One of Bob Weir's favorite musicians was McCoy Tyner. He has talked about how much McCoy's playing on My Favorite Things influenced Bob's rhythm guitar playing.
Jerry Garcia has said numerous times how much he adored Art Tatum and how much Jerry learned about music just listening to Art.
They were all huge fans of John Coltrane.
Bill Kreutzmann's drumming was incredibly jazzy from 72-74. I'm not 100% sure who influenced him the most, but I would guess Elvin Jones was a pretty big influence.
Miles Davis was also really influential. He opened for them in 1970 at Fillmore East and they hung and talked music before/after the shows. They had a lot of mutual respect, unlike when Miles opened for "That non playing mother fucker" Steve Miller.
You can especially hear jazz influence on the dead from 72-74. They were still a bit jazzy 75-77 but the sound was heading in more of a grove based boogie direction.
That non-playing motherfucker lolol.
I think Europe '72 is where it all congealed with concert style, the wall of sound, business model, etc...
I mean there's a certain sort of idiot that makes a Miles / Steve Miller twin bill.
I've seen weird county fair shows where the opening Mariachi gets called up to play with the country band headlining and it works. That's how you should pick a lineup. If band 1 can get called up by the headliner and make sense
Promoter Bill Graham had a subversive/evangelical streak, pairing popular rock bands with artists twice their age, like Albert King, Lightin Hopkins, Bo Diddley. He did it to turn the kids on to great music. He tended to book the blues artists more often but I know jazz artists performed there in addition to Miles Davis, like Buddy Rich & Charles Lloyd. Graham was a big fan of Afro-Cuban jazz as well
:-p
Jimi Hendrix's first American tour was opening for the Monkees.
Before that he played for little Richard
It was actually a triple bill, with Neil Young and Crazy Horse headlining. That one got released as Live At Fillmore East, and it rips.
You missed the fact that Billy met Mickey at a jazz show. Buddy Rich if I recall correctly, or maybe Gene Krupa....
It was a Count Basie concert they met at ◡̈
It's hard to keep all of the facts straight, especially when you are a deadhead ;)
r/unexpectedarcher
Idk exactly but Phil Lesh in particular (and I assume the rest of the band but I’ve read this in his biography) was entirely blown away by Miles Davis when he opened for them in 1970.
The Miles album Black Beauty is from those dates.
To add…
My memory is Phil Lesh was a trumpet player before being the bassist for the Dead. So makes sense Miles would be particularly interesting to him.
Idk for a fact, but I assume he played jazz with his trumpet (or at least some jazz). He is (in)famous is bass circle for not playing like a “bassist.” He does things like horn phrasing, not playing at the 1, etc.
Oh right! Yea violin and then trumpet for awhile. I also totally spaced on Bobby’s love for McCoy Tyner and tries to emulate his style in his playing.
Phil Lesh also was a student of Luciano Berio and friends with Steve Reich, so he also has a strong contemporary classical music background.
Black Beauty is an under-appreciated gem in Miles' discography. (Even despite Steve Grossman sounding quite a few steps down from Wayne.)
Don’t really remember where I heard it, but most people in the crowd had no idea who he was. Said he started off with a little Sketches and then hit ‘em with that Bitches Brew shit. To have been there lol.
No one has mentioned that Ornette Coleman jammed with them and Garcia played on one of his albums.
I'd also say that there is a lot of improvisation in other music, especially bluegrass, but the influences from jazz is likely but not fully obvious (jazz is at times more structured than some of the dead jams).
They definitely didn't just copy jazz improv. They reworked it into their own thing.
They also played with Bradford Marsalis: Birdsong & Eyes of the World.
As to your point about bluegrass I totally agree. Jerry Garcia was a highly regarded banjo player and the band started off as a bluegrass and jug band originally.
A large extent. Bob Weir has said his playing style was heavily influenced by McCoy Tyner and a lot of the jamming of the one drummer era of 71-74 takes a lot from jazz improvisation. Their performances of Playing in the Band starting in the late summer/fall of 72 to the end of 74, you hear that a lot.
Considering they were practically each simultaneously improvising, it is heavily jazz influenced. Jerry was definitely a fan of all the jazz at the time, but they were also heavy on the bluegrass since jerry was an excellent banjo player.
They manipulate rhythms often to give a spacy, swing feel as well. They are tricking people into listening to jazz without knowing it.
As Bob Weir put it, they are an American band playing American music - jazz, blues, country, rock, etc. all mixed into one.
This is it. I've had a very roundabout path to appreciating the Dead. People in college who were all about heavy rock but then also liked one single folksy, country bluesrock band because of of the drug connotations annoyed the hell of of me.
My path really came through Robert Hunter and the Annotated Dead lyric archive on UCSD's website.
Then the albums and, most recently, this 6-hour Dead documentary on Prime. Once I understood the concepts underpinning their music, they became more and more fascinating.
And today's the day I connected them to jazz.
Woohoo!
I'd go so far as to say they're a fusion band.
Jerry is famous for loving "So What" by Miles Davis... so much that there's an album of archive stuff from the early 90s with Jerry and Dave Grisman called "So What" https://open.spotify.com/album/6rPcEfwiZoggqlVpuLN1dD?si=MxPV6F0sToyVPao5oQKJGg
They most certainly were influenced by jazz but The Dead were on an island by themselves especially within the rock idiom. They were masters at improvisation but their musical language wasn't informed by any particular school of thought. It was taking bits and pieces from everything. They were not bound by rhythm conventions which that alone separated them. If you spend enough time listening to them you can hear a group think. However, they were routinely all playing simultaneously. Whereas in most Jazz quintets - there are specific solo sections. They were more reminscent ragtime bands and bluegrass outfits. Their live output from 1969 - 1974 puts them in league with any great musical group. As individuals, Phil Lesh and Bob Weir had no peers within rock music. They are truly originals. Garcia's legacy speaks for itself.
A lot of people have added some great info. I’m not sure I’ve seen this mentioned yet, so I’ll add that early in their formation some members were interviewed for a radio program and asked to recommend some music they’d been into lately. The answers revolved heavily around jazz. Garcia focused on Coltrane and Mingus specifically I believe
Directly.
They lived down the street from the Jazz Workshop in San Francisco and saw many blues and jazz greats through going to the club.
I think so, to some degree. However , I think the jam sessions in rock (especially 60s rock) is more of a product of the Blues influence in the genre than of Jazz. Early rock was basically a modernized version of the blues, and the way improvisation is tackled in the rock jam session is much closer to blues improvisation than jazz IMO.
All the way to the 70s rock bands were even still using the blues form as a base for composition and improvisation. Electric guitar soloing on rock has its whole base on the blues.
Of course Jazz also had an influence on Rock, and Jazz and Blues intersect in many areas, but the Blues influence on rock is much bigger and clearer, I think. And, just like Jazz, improvisation was a huge part of Blues, but Blues improvisation was more focused on simple harmonies, repetition and blues scales, just like Rock is.
You're kinda late to the party here. Read the other comments.
Ok, then close the thread.
OK
They never quite achieved jazz despite what all deadheads will have you believe. They are the original “jam band”, but I’m not sure they were digging into Freddy Hubbard deep cuts.
Pretty sure bob weir mimicked McCoy tyners powerful chordal accompaniment
Short answer, yes. Long answer: read Phil Lesh (GD's bass players) autobiography Searching for the Sound and he goes into great length about how much A Love Supreme influenced him and the band.
They were all into jazz. They took the jazz aesthetic of improv solos and extended jams that would allow for soloing and applied it to rock/psychedelic music
I think a good deal of the love for the Grateful Dead whilst using psychedelics, comes from the jazz influences in their music. It has a special way of making a mood that’s conducive and safe for the tripper. I don’t do so myself anymore, but I remember that their live music in particular was the only thing I wanted to hear for any length of time in that state of mind.
I think Keith brought some jazz sensibility to the band when he joined and began to feel more comfortable. He was playing jazz standards in bars before joining.
I think
Owsley Stanley was more of an influence
I saw the Dead over 20 times with Jerry. Influenced or not, they were just not in the same league as the jazz contemporaries of the Dead's heyday, like Mahavishnu Orchestra and Return to Forever.
That said, the Dead had something original.
The Dead made some jazz fusion music, but that's not all they focused on and they weren't all about technical wizardry the way those fusion bands were. The Dead were a rock band that had bluegrass/folk/blues/country roots. They were also a dance band primarily. They also sang a lot of ballads. They did incorporate elements of jazz into their sound, but by the mid-70's onwards they were something totally unique in how they put everything together. Some people don't like it, some of us do, quite a bit in fact. Early 70's Dead is probably the most accessible, but it's very country/folk-rock sounding, which I love. Never got to see Jerry myself, but I've listened to so many of his recordings now.
The Mahavishnu Orchestra and Return to Forever were not "all about technical wizardry". They would not be revered today if that were the case.
I didn't mean that to be phrased derisively.
My point is those were primarily jazz musicians, they have jazz chops. The Dead were northern California folkies and rockers who played scuzzy rock venues in the 60's and helped/played a huge role in the creation of a whole scene of touring rock bands, bootleggers, tape traders, drug distributors, etc. based around their free spirited music where it was considered okay to make mistakes and not be perfect, and the most important thing to the most beloved guy in the whole scene, Jerry Garcia, was simply having fun and helping others have fun. I feel like most high level jazz musicians, especially band leaders, have a reputation for not being super tolerant of mistakes, and having fun is not always the most important thing. In a lot of cases people get fired for making mistakes or putting on a bad gig or not taking stuff incredibly seriously.
The Dead were able to function highly as professional musicians while also not rehearsing constantly (or at all in some cases) and keeping their vibe that they were just like their audience, they weren't above them. They were just guys who liked to have fun, but they also could talk to each other through their instruments.
You're a fan of the Dead and it shows. Good for you; as long as you enjoy their music.
This is likely an unpopular opinion, but I don't hear any Jazz influence in the Dead's work. And while improvisation was a significant part of their music, it didn't seem to go anywhere. It was all very clumsy.
Sometimes they took a lot of chances. But when you say, "it didn't seem to go anywhere,", you might mean: their jams hang out in one key exclusively, for a long time, without introducing any notes outside the one mode. This is a fact.
I guess if you don't mind the one-keyness, then they sound jazzy.
By contrast, in the 70s, Miles would have the bass player hold down one tonal center...but then all kinds of weirdness would happen on top of that. For me, this is much more in the spirit of jazz.
Yes. Miles took risks, but he was an exceptional musician, highly trained in the art of improvisation. With the Dead, improvisation only highlighted their lack of creativity. But certain people love endless repetition because it's predictable and readily understandable.
I wouldn't describe the Dead as "uncreative", but I think we agree their vocabulary was limited, compared to the vast majority of jazz players.
I do think sometime, less skilled musicians can produce amazing music. I'm not necessarily referring to The Dead here. :)
It's precisely their deficient vocabulary that bores me. Why even bother with them when there are much better musicians improvising at a much higher level (e.g., Miles, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Weather Report, Zappa, etc.). To each his own, I suppose. And yes, less skilled musicians can sometimes produce amazing work, though I can't seem to think of any at the moment. I don't disagree with you.
Seems like someone hasn't listen much Grateful Dead S: I'll just say this is an opinion some fans of Classical music would say about jazz. Any genre is also a language, it's useful understanding what they are saying.
You're entitled to an opinion. I am fortunate to enjoy both Classical and Jazz as there is an embarrassment of riches to be enjoyed there.
You don't hear it on the albums, which they only considered promo material.
It's the live recordings where they play improv, and so then you hear the same song in different concerts and they will sound different. Then, the next level is picking which version of a song with a thousand versions is the best.
You have the studio version of this Bob Weir song:
https://youtu.be/E-AhJhiBYxs?feature=shared
And then you have the 23-minute Dead improv version
https://youtu.be/PeXJMqbpkuE?feature=shared
And there are other 4-minute live versions.
And there are definitely versions that don't really do it for me. It depends on how 'on' the band is each night...quite like jazz except many of the off jazz performances are lost to history because, unlike the Dead, they didn't have people there taping every single performance.
You should probably listen to more of their material before making assumptions.
Jerry definitely solos off of the notes in chords, as opposed to soloing in a scale.
Bruce Hornsby belongs in this discussion. Bruce is a classically trained pianist who can play jazz with the best of them.He and Jerry had a relationship for a long time before Bruce joined the Dead
The Grateful Dead and their musical vocabulary comes more from the country and bluegrass tradition than it does the jazz tradition.
Jerry was a huge miles fan
Well, of course all rock music stems from jazz/blues to start with. Then furthermore improvised soloing really is a fundamental jazz thing. Jazz usually is pretty rigid in form though, and traditionally never strays far from the chords of the tune. GD jams however can take complete detours in that aspect. I'm sure there are also strong free jazz influences on GD jams. I guess there is one more fundamental difference, which is that jazz uses swing groove/feel, while the Grateful Dead played rock grooves mostly.
That's quite wrong. Please try late Miles, Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Anthony Braxton, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Allan Holdsworth, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, Derek Bailey, Art Ensemble of Chicago, etc. That's not even the tip of the iceberg.
They were totally influenced by jazz, there are a lot of connections you can make. The question of how much their music actually sounds like or close to jazz will depend on the period of their career, a particular tour, a certain show, or even just a song or two in an individual show. Some of their music is nothing like jazz, but a lot if it has some similarity in some aspect or another. We're talking about a band with a vast 3 decade-spanning catalogue of studio recordings, live albums, archival releases, soundboard and audience bootlegs, etc.
Watch the Amazon Doc and it explains all the influences pretty quickly brought by every musician.
That Amazon was the best thing I ever watched on Prime and the first.
Apologies if this was mentioned already but I’m pretty sure I read somewhere that the main riff in Bird Song was inspired by So What. When I listen, I can totally hear it, but Bird Song is more mixolydian and So What is more Dorian. Still, just listen and you’ll hear the similarities in the main riffs