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I'm deciding whether to apply to an incubator program backed by a new company that finances, develops, produces, and distributes movies and TV shows.
The agreement (which hasn't been given to us yet -- RED FLAG?) will detail who gets what if they sell a series developed via the incubator.
I realized that I don't know much about what happens when a TV pilot is sold, so I don't know what terms are fair/market.
I know that generally the writers get something up front, and then are commonly retained to write/run the show, based on an employment agreement.
I've been googling around for answers and this blog is one of the most useful I found.
https://leejessup.com/the-harsh-truths-about-selling-your-tv-pilot/
In short,
-
hardly anyone sells a pilot without first spending years working their way up through a writers room, and
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a newbie is very unlikely to run the show they created.
Under WGA rules, for a 30-minute network prime time show the minimum is $27,778 for story plus teleplay, plus residuals.
For non-network (which I assume includes the streamers?) it's $16,301 for story plus teleplay. I've heard that streamers like Netflix don't pay residuals.
See also: https://freshmenscreenplay.com/how-much-do-writers-get-paid-for-a-pilot/
https://deadline.com/2019/06/wga-data-shows-median-and-maximum-pay-for-tv-pilot-scripts-1202627934/
Here's some info about options, set-up bonuses, and episodic fees:
https://www.tvwritersvault.com/writerres/standarddeals.asp#.YXKnCdlBz0o
https://writersstore.com/blogs/news/the-ins-and-outs-of-tv-series-writer-deals
From what I can gather, $100,000 is a ballpark initial payday for someone selling their first pilot. Does that seem accurate?
Does anyone else have any good resources on this issue?
Edited to add: I'm delighted to learn based on the comments below that newbies selling pilots is a lot more common than I thought!
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In 2021, I sold my first pilot before I got staffed in my first room. I don’t think my experience is common but it can happen. I had a successful short and a feature writing sample. I was approached by an established prod co that had an option on a desirable piece of IP. I co-developed it and pitched around town. We ended up with a 3-way bidding war which ultimately led to a pretty decent first-time deal for me. I’m now in my second room of the year and am hoping to get enough experience to throw my hat in the ring to show run if we get a series pick up after the pilot is complete.
Good to hear! Would you mind sharing what your deal was?
I was able to negotiate across the writing portion of the work I will do as well as EP'ing. I won't get into specific numbers but it is more than the numbers floating around on the thread. If you aren't already repped you will def want to get an attorney if you make it that far. Good luck!
https://deadline.com/2021/08/yellow-bird-series-adaptation-paramount-plus-sterlin-harjo-beau-willimon-michael-london-producing-1234822953/
Out of curiosity, since you came into your first room at an EP level because you sold the show... wha was your title in the next couple rooms? Obviously assuming you didn't have to start back at the beginning or anything, but I wasn't sure if you'd keep the EP title wherever you went from that point forward or if in your next room you'd be a slightly lower level but still producer level writer.
The pilot that was sold doesn’t have a pickup yet so there hasn’t been a room for that. I was able to leverage the success of the sale and the strength of my sample to get an ESE credit in my first room.
Netflix do pay residuals under some circumstances - all praise to the WGA! See
https://www.wga.org/members/finances/residuals/hbsvod-programs
...I think most US made shows will earn residuals now?
Good to know!
Just found this, too:
https://www.marketplace.org/2020/07/06/tv-writers-set-to-get-more-royalties-from-streaming-services/
The real problem with Netflix seems to be very small writers rooms kept open for short periods. A lot of their shows are providing less employment for writers than network equivalents.
i agree with this take, but will add that i'm of two minds about it. on the one the rooms/seasons/runs are smaller, on the other hand there's a LOT more gigs to be staffed. obviously the latter without the former would be better, but they seem tog o hand in hand.
I think the Netflix system means that fewer people will be financially secure. If this continues then more people will spend years breaking into the industry, get a show to work on, and then drop out after a few years. Or they'll end up like actors and they'll spend more time working in Starbucks than creating.
Hi! What a great question and thank you for linking so many awesome resources.
I am a literary manager here in LA and i would say half of the projects I have sold are from brand new writers and half are from established writers.
In terms of resources, i would recommend any new writer who does not have representation and is doing a deal a) get a reputable entertainment attorney and b) CALL THE WGA. Even if you are not in the guild, the WGA represents writers and, not only can they connect you with an attorney, but they can answer any and all questions you have. They are the best.
100k IMO is slightly low for a payday. 150k is the median.
If you are a brand new writer you will not be the showrunner. The SR position is literally the person who runs the show- their duties include hiring writers (staffing the room), dealing with the studio\network, casting, hiring directors, making sure scripts get in on time; helping w the budget, etc. if you are a brand new writer, you most likely don’t have experience w those things. New writers generally will get a Co-EP credit (sometimes EP) and be partnered w an established writer who can oversee them and help handle all the duties of running the show.
DISCLAIMER: this is all based on my personal experience as a literary manager and there are certainly exceptions to all of the above. My biggest advice is to not do research online from “random” websites (no offense intended at all to the resources you provided) and look to the WGA and reputable entertainment attorneys for guidance and support when doing a deal.
Best wishes and thanks for opening up a great conversation ✌️
It's amazing to hear that HALF the projects you sell are from first-timers.
It's also great (and surprising) to hear from so many other writers on this sub who have sold pilots without staffing first.
Is this a relatively new trend, based on the booming demand for content? Is it correct to assume that it was harder for newbies to sell a pilot in the past?
What are the main factors that lead to a newbie selling a pilot? (Concept/concept/concept and ???)
I can’t speak to if this is a relatively new trend, I’m in my early(ish) 30’s so I just haven’t been doing this at a high enough level for long enough to know what it was like back in the day. I would assume that things have changed in a major way specifically due to the rise of cable and streaming - back when the core TV business was going thru network broadcast, I would assume that more established writers were selling projects and it was more rare for newer writers to sell something (specifically because network broadcast generally buys things based on a pitch and then commissions a script - buying a pitch from an established writer is “safer” than buying one from someone who is brand new.) But that’s just a guess.
I actually think it’s “easier” to sell a pilot than to staff! Staffing is (one of) the hardest things to do in the industry, or at least breaking in / getting your first staffing job is. Selling a project is basically asking the streamer/network “do you think this script would make a good TV show.” Getting staffed on a show is basically applying to one of the most competitive jobs in the world, that has very specific needs, probably only one slot at the lower level, and (if you haven’t staffed before) you are basically applying to that job with a high school diploma. Once you get your first job, then you are applying to that same job but you have relationships and a college degree.
(And btw, yes it’s hard to break in as a writer but you are “applying” for a job that is ALWAYS hiring and, again, is going to have very specific needs. Those needs are based on the makeup of the room, what kind of show it is, what the needs of the room are, and how good you are as a writer/how good your sample is/how clearly it speaks to the show and what you could bring to it. So don’t get discouraged).
I am a salesman so you would probably better served hearing from someone on the buyer side of what the main factors they are looking for in picking up a pilot from a new writer, but in my experience, I’ve found concept, market trends, theme, the package (i.e. who is producing, and what are the other attachments), and writing craft to be the main qualities that helped get a sale.
Thanks for the detailed response!
I'm amazed too. I think we're looking at a highly atypical agent here. Their advice to call the wga is excellent - I wish other writers organisations were as competent and determined.
But let's remember that selling a pilot and getting a show are two very different things. I think only about 10% of initial sales make it into production as series?
Hey that’s right - actually getting the show made is WAAAAAAAAY different than selling a pilot! I don’t have any idea on actual figures, but if you are considering ALL things sold (i.e. pitches as well as completed pilot scripts) and are only considering if they actually go to series (as opposed to just getting a pilot order), I bet the figure is a lot less than 10%. Consider all of the broadcast networks pick up somewhere in the range of 20-30 (and probably more) pieces of development, send about half of those to pilot, and pick up maybe 3-5 of those. It’s rough out there. :)
EDIT: Sorry I forgot to mention - 1) I am not an agent, I’m a manager. Still do similar jobs but just wanted to make that distinction. 2) I don’t think I am “highly atypical” - which hopefully is a good thing! Most of my contemporaries are taking out material from brand new writers and trying to sell it / get it set up. The reality is, when I sign a new writer who has a great script, I am going to “take it out” with the hopes that we sell it, but the real goal is getting them staffed on it and starting to build relationships for them. If the script is good enough and is hitting the specific market needs, then you will (hopefully) sell it. But representatives like me are always going to “take out” material from new writers and, as long as it’s good, it will necessarily always have a chance to sell. Hope that makes sense!
Do you have recommendations for selling a first season of a spec series that has been created already? I’m headed to MIPCOM for the first time ever and am wondering what I should bring with me or do to prepare for it. Thank you!
Usually the ballpark is a little lower than 100K. The first pilot I sold had competing offers, so my writing partner and I were lucky to sell it for a higher price tag. Typically though, I see friends sell their first for around 50K.
Good info - thanks!
I'm a "newbie" writer who's original pilot has received a paid option and taken in development for a first look at a major streamer. I've haven't been staffed as of yet. I 'm fortunate to have an amazing manager and high profile attorneys to get it done, which of course helps. Best of all I've been able to parlay it mnay new high level meetings for my other scripts and of course interest in paid dev for the studios/streamers own IP. In my mind that's where the money is at and their is more work as staffing is less pay and unbelievable competetive.
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Hey Jeff. Well first congrats for being a fellowship finalist. So my first question you would be that script is being repped by an agency why not have them introduce to established managers that they work with? What I'm saying is take advantage of any heat you have going and press some leverage while you can. I met my manager after being a awarded a very established Tv fellowship and he's been amazing. But finding the right manager is like finding the right soul mate. Regardless, my experience runs counter to your producer in that my winning pilot got my manager before dev. and opened up the rest of writing for reading and meetings.
My advice to you is take adavantage of your agency relationship. Being vouched should at the very minimun get you read. The rest is up to luck and hard work. In other words, keep pressing and writing. But be a nice guy about it.
In every case, seems like the writers are getting boned hard.
??? If you sell a 12 episode half show, only write the pilot, and make the median amount, you still make $400k. And then you get residuals as well. If there's another season, you make 300K without writing another script.
Perhaps I misread. Could've sworn I saw $27k.
27 is the episodic fee. That means that its what you get per episode - unless major language abuse is going on. So for something like like Buffy, you'd get half a million per season. According to my interpretation. I could be wrong - it could be that the episodic fee is for writing a normal episode. If so, yes, that's being screwed because you don't seem to get anything for your ideas being used when other people are writing. But that's almost unbelievable - I can't imagine the wga allowing that.
...And - as usual, of course - I'm right...
https://www.tvwritersvault.com/writerres/standarddeals.asp#.YXLGcx3TU1I
Episodic Fees: This is the main source of revenue derived from a series. Typically a production company will offer the creator/producer a percentage of the locked per episode budget. Whatever the Networks sets as the budget per episode, you would receive a set percentage of that. Anywhere between 2 and 5% is standard, and up for negotiation. Budgets vary greatly depending on the content of the series and the network producing the show. Major Networks and Prime Time shows pay more. However, when you're looking at long-term financial gain, you hope for a successful series that runs multiple episodes for multiple seasons on any network or cable network at any budget.
A lot of shows are 2 to 4m now. So even 2% is 40 to 80k.
The article in the OP, for example, lists 105k, but then lists something about 9k and 16k or something for story plus teleplay? So, is it 105k, or 25k?
The distinction is between selling a pilot and just writing a normal episode of a series.
For the pilot, the writer is getting other fees and a premium for having created the show.
The people writing the other episodes may not have created the series.
If you're talking about the episodic fee, I don't think so - it's the fee the creator gets per episode according to this https://www.tvwritersvault.com/writerres/standarddeals.asp#.YXLGcx3TU1h
Or have I misunderstood?
I sold a pilot and I’ve still never staffed. It happens and it’s even more common in the streaming war era.
OK, fine, sure, maybe it's wildly unlikely for a newbie to sell a pilot, but what about all the newbies who are making bank every day in Hollywood selling their idea for a pilot?
Where is that reflected in all your numbers, Mr. Guy Who Is Probably Just Bitter, huh?
A whole industry exists to scam people who think they can sell ideas to Hollywood...
Hah! That's exactly what someone who's trying to discourage me in order to eliminate their competition would say, wouldn't they?
Not at all! In fact, if you just send me $110,000 for expenses, I'd be happy to pitch your idea to Netflix.
Edited to add: https://www.reddit.com/r/Screenwriting/comments/n5adj4/give_me_110000_and_ill_pitch_your_script_to/
I'll do it for $109,000. And I'll give you a travel alarm clock!
it took me way, way too long to detect the sarcasm in this comment.
brb, grabbing more coffee.
i'm out of practice because normally i never use sarcasm
Or capital letters, it seems... Wait: are you ee cummings???
If you're claiming that a significant number of newbies are selling ideas for shows, it's up to you to provide the evidence. Just like if you were claiming Hilary Clinton is an alien. (Although everyone knows she's really an android...)
The guy I just paid $4,000 to "package" my script idea and send it to "top Hollywood execs" assures me that this happens all the time. Why would he lie to me about that?
Dude, that comment was meant to be sarcastic.
Ok: that was meant as sarcasm? Phew - nice to know one of the Sane People hasn't lost it after all...
I was confused at first because I'm sure that there are people here that really think like that.
Poe's Law
Oh, I've seen much worse...
As for newbies rarely selling pilots... The people who turn up here thinking otherwise need a common sense transplant.
Sadly there’s a lack of donors.
Yes. It's a shame really - motorcycle crashes are great for providing every organ you can think of, except that one.
Well, off to agonize over whether I'm going to buy that Honda Trail Cub again...
How does this not intimidate? I won’t give up even though I’ve been writing over a year and a half now but how do I know when I’m close enough to feel like I’m going to make it?
I have been meaning to ask on this sub what the difference is between a TV Pilot and a Netflix pilot, if there is any, and also the main distinctions between a movie screenplay, if someone were to try to write something that could be a stand alone feature film, but also potentially with a cliffhanger that could lead to a series. These links will eventually help me in that direction, so thanks!
I am a poet and writing is what i do
Say what you need, and you will get it before it's due
But dark are my innards, let me forewarn you
It's possible but not easy.
Newbie here, working with prod co on my pilot.
Hope to be one of the lucky ones
What do you mean by "working with prod co"?
Producer's helping me develop the script to a point he's comfortable pitching it to his team which will lead to an option, etc...
Does this prod co have any projects currently set up anywhere?
Yeah, HBO, Netflix, Hulu, and a few features I think
Fantastic!
It’s been great so far, if nothing pans out I’ve at least got a new contact and my script is in a much better place.
How did you get linked with your pro co?
Which incubator? A friend of mine sold his pilot through the Imagine Impact program for mid six figures in the pitching room. Their pitching room is very different though as there were hundreds of industry execs in person and via video call. Sounded crazy. His advice to me was to negotiate as an EP creative control, and get a great industry lawyer as they’ll help negotiate the best deal. So it happens but he’d had a couple feature scripts optioned and fell through but he also said some participants just had an idea and wrote their first script there and some sold them, so yeah it does happen. You’re not going to show run anything without experience. They wouldn’t risk that.
It's not Impact, though I'd love to do that one. They've gone quiet and are pivoting, it seems...
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Because if you're writing narrative, rather than twitch streaming, that only seems like a smart idea if you're utterly clueless about the costs involved. Network shows shoot at a million an hour and up a long way up. If you pick the right idea and cut quality, you can feasibly get the costs to tens of thousands an hour. But if you've got an idea good enough to do that, it should be saleable anyway.