I have read India calls their Mirage 2000's the "tip of the spear".  In Kargil they performed very well.  They would have bought many more Mirages had the production line not closed and they are looking at Taiwanese Mirages and if possible French ones.

The UAE in Yemen performed better with Mirages than the Saudis did with F15s.  But Saudi pilots are pretty shitty.

The Taiwanese have 60+ Mirages that they're not happy with for various reasons.  For over 10 years they've been saying they wanted to sell them.  The French will be withdrawing 28 Mirages very soon, and probably another 30 in the next 5 years.  And the UAE might even want to sell some of theirs if they go ahead and get 60 Rafales.

My opinion is Greece should push for French Mirages as part of the offsets for the Belharra.  We should try and get all 28 they withdraw from service.  And we should try to get some from Taiwan.  For some reason the operating costs for the Taiwanese are very high.  The French and Taiwanese ones are all (-5 Mirages).  

I think we it's possible for us to have a Mirage fleet of 100 planes.  Even 80.  28 for dirt cheap from France and the rest for very cheap from Taiwan.  

The MICA NG is in development and it will give a 30% longer range on MICAs.

basileus2307 wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

MitsosBarba wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

I have read India calls their Mirage 2000's the "tip of the spear".  In Kargil they performed very well.  They would have bought many more Mirages had the production line not closed and they are looking at Taiwanese Mirages and if possible French ones.

The UAE in Yemen performed better with Mirages than the Saudis did with F15s.  But Saudi pilots are pretty shitty.

The Taiwanese have 60+ Mirages that they're not happy with for various reasons.  For over 10 years they've been saying they wanted to sell them.  The French will be withdrawing 28 Mirages very soon, and probably another 30 in the next 5 years.  And the UAE might even want to sell some of theirs if they go ahead and get 60 Rafales.

My opinion is Greece should push for French Mirages as part of the offsets for the Belharra.  We should try and get all 28 they withdraw from service.  And we should try to get some from Taiwan.  For some reason the operating costs for the Taiwanese are very high.  The French and Taiwanese ones are all (-5 Mirages).  

I think we it's possible for us to have a Mirage fleet of 100 planes.  Even 80.  28 for dirt cheap from France and the rest for very cheap from Taiwan.  

The MICA NG is in development and it will give a 30% longer range on MICAs.

and why not pursuing with rafale ?

Not same amount of money ofc but if rafale capacities are superior to mirage ones then, why not starting with a few ?

Because, apart from cheaper procurement, Mirage has a fraction of the operating cost of Rafales.
But, on the long term, we should also buy Rafales.

Rafale will cost 150 million per plane.  Are they superior?  Yes, I can argue the Rafale is the best plane in the world apart from an F35 or F22.  

France is going to remove 28 Mirage 2000-5s from service.  We could get them for next to nothing.  I have read Taiwan is willing to sell their Mirage for something ridiculous like 10 million per plane.  We can potentially get 60 more Mirages for the price of 4 or 5 Rafales.  Imagine the HAF with 100 Mirage 2000s (+ the F16Vs and other F16s).  250 F16s and Mirages.  

If he had billions available I'd say Rafale.  But we don't.

If there are no homogeneity issues with HAF M-2000, i think Greece should try to acquire as many
as possible. It would be a nice stop gap solution for the next 15 years.

beryozza wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

If there are no homogeneity issues with HAF M-2000, i think Greece should try to acquire as many
as possible. It would be a nice stop gap solution for the next 15 years.

From what I know, the French and Taiwanese Mirage 2000-5s are very similar to ours.  And both can be available for very cheap.  

Think about it, we tell the French "2+2 Belharra, but the 28 Mirage 2000-5s are part of the deal".  They're retiring them anyway.  And the Taiwanese hate their Mirages because the French rape them on parts and service, and it costs them so much more to operate them than the F16s we have, whereas our operating costs on the Mirages are low.  

You are right.  Gives us 15 years or so.  During that time we can evaluate what is best in terms of what comes next.  The F35 will be a much more mature system by then, and the European next gen fighters will be close to coming into service.  

Mitso the big advantage of M-2000 is that it can fire exocet missiles. Its the only fighter in HAF that can fire
long ranger anti-ship missiles. Valuable asset especially if you want to keep pirate ships away...

MitsosBarba wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

beryozza wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

If there are no homogeneity issues with HAF M-2000, i think Greece should try to acquire as many
as possible. It would be a nice stop gap solution for the next 15 years.

From what I know, the French and Taiwanese Mirage 2000-5s are very similar to ours.  And both can be available for very cheap.  

Think about it, we tell the French "2+2 Belharra, but the 28 Mirage 2000-5s are part of the deal".  They're retiring them anyway.  And the Taiwanese hate their Mirages because the French rape them on parts and service, and it costs them so much more to operate them than the F16s we have, whereas our operating costs on the Mirages are low.  

You are right.  Gives us 15 years or so.  During that time we can evaluate what is best in terms of what comes next.  The F35 will be a much more mature system by then, and the European next gen fighters will be close to coming into service.  

Mitso, the Taiwan thing has been refuted, no such possibility unfortunately.
I agree though, it would be nice to have such an opportunity .

kritis76 wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

MitsosBarba wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

beryozza wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

If there are no homogeneity issues with HAF M-2000, i think Greece should try to acquire as many
as possible. It would be a nice stop gap solution for the next 15 years.

From what I know, the French and Taiwanese Mirage 2000-5s are very similar to ours.  And both can be available for very cheap.  

Think about it, we tell the French "2+2 Belharra, but the 28 Mirage 2000-5s are part of the deal".  They're retiring them anyway.  And the Taiwanese hate their Mirages because the French rape them on parts and service, and it costs them so much more to operate them than the F16s we have, whereas our operating costs on the Mirages are low.  

You are right.  Gives us 15 years or so.  During that time we can evaluate what is best in terms of what comes next.  The F35 will be a much more mature system by then, and the European next gen fighters will be close to coming into service.  

Mitso, the Taiwan thing has been refuted, no such possibility unfortunately.
I agree though, it would be nice to have such an opportunity .

The one story that said Taiwan would sell all their Mirages + all the weapons for $10 million per plane was refuted.

But the Taiwanese have mentioned from 2008 or 2009 that they want to get rid of their Mirages.  I would make an approach.  Nothing to lose.  

Even so, 28 more French ones would give us just over 70 Mirage 2000s.

beryozza wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

Mitso the big advantage of M-2000 is that it can fire exocet missiles. Its the only fighter in HAF that can fire
long ranger anti-ship missiles. Valuable asset especially if you want to keep pirate ships away...

Can fire Exocets and Scalps.  And as a country that operates both Mirages and F16s, from what I'm told the Mirage is totally dominant over the Aegean.  

adoni wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

ephialtes wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

Turkey must buy these Mirage to stop Greece buying them and also then can study the Mirage and use some ideas for TFX and to develop better tactics

Turkey cannot do no such thing.

Any purchase by Turkey to Taiwan will need the authorisation of the French to sell-on so you can forget that idea.

LOL @ Turkey allowing Turkey to get Mirages.  Just LOL

The alvano is funny though.  

MitsosBarba wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

beryozza wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

Mitso the big advantage of M-2000 is that it can fire exocet missiles. Its the only fighter in HAF that can fire
long ranger anti-ship missiles. Valuable asset especially if you want to keep pirate ships away...

Can fire Exocets and Scalps.  And as a country that operates both Mirages and F16s, from what I'm told the Mirage is totally dominant over the Aegean.  

Absolutely. Only the Rafale would be better, but way more expensive.
About 70 Mirage, some of them with Scalps or Exocets would be a huge advantage for us. If we agree to the Belharra, we should try to get them as soon as possible. Mirage still do a great job for us, and our pilots defintely know how to fly them.

adoni wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

I have read recently that Taiwan Mirages are causing a strain on its budget and they are unable to upgrade via France because the Chinese protested against it   pressuring France to pass on such a sky-high upgrade cost.

By 2022 Taiwan will have F16V equipped with 105km range amraams and it's IDF has TC2 missiles at 100km+.

So 20 years after introduction the Mirage is left with MICAs at only 50km range and without a MLU.

We should push for a RFi on availability and costing ASAP.

We definitely have to look into it.  Taiwan doesn't have many options in terms of whom to sell to.  We should take half, India the other half, if they want them (which they do).  Add in 28 French ones, and it gives us potentially 100 Mirages.  Mica NG will have about a 100km range.

adoni wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

MitsosBarba wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

adoni wrote: ↑

Jul 06, 2020

I have read recently that Taiwan Mirages are causing a strain on its budget and they are unable to upgrade via France because the Chinese protested against it   pressuring France to pass on such a sky-high upgrade cost.

By 2022 Taiwan will have F16V equipped with 105km range amraams and it's IDF has TC2 missiles at 100km+.

So 20 years after introduction the Mirage is left with MICAs at only 50km range and without a MLU.

We should push for a RFi on availability and costing ASAP.

We definitely have to look into it.  Taiwan doesn't have many options in terms of whom to sell to.  We should take half, India the other half, if they want them (which they do).  Add in 28 French ones, and it gives us potentially 100 Mirages.  Mica NG will have about a 100km range.

I know why you opened this thread re phile , it's so in 6 months time when it is announced you will take credit for it 😂

HAHAHA

I just try to think outside the box.  How Greece can maximize things.