Talk:Heavy metal music

Criticism

There should be a criticism section..there are plenty of people myself included who hate it..there is a reason why they play it continuously at high volume in the Guantanamo Bay prison..there is a reason why they play at high volume period..it`s the only way they can get people to listen to it..at least there`s a point to rap it`s political..music is a combination of technique and interpretation..it`s all technique and despite what you`ve been told is not technically challenging lacks dynamics and interpretatively flat..comparing heavy metal to classical music is absurd..folk music is closer to classical music..so is jazz..classical music is by definition music that stands the test of time 2600:1702:2340:9470:C49C:E9ED:A1F:3338 (talk) 22:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Please read WP:CSECTION. You're free to add some reliably sourced content about the negative reception of metal music, but piling up a bunch of negative content in a dedicated section isn't really the way to do it. Sergecross73 msg me 03:51, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

there is no way I`m going to waste a moment`s more of my time on this article..I`ve made my point..you may not believe this but there are people who don`t like opera..a lifetime studying music as well as drama maybe to get a 30 second spot in a company..there is no accounting for taste 2600:1702:2340:9470:2857:2879:FFF4:1410 (talk) 19:52, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Okay then. May someone be inspired to write by your idle complaining then. Sergecross73 msg me 21:25, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Or add a fully cited "Opera suxs" section to the Opera page ;) Its the same thing, and see how long that lasts. Ceoil (talk) 08:11, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Keep in mind talk pages are meant to discuss how to improve the article, not for discussing your feelings of the topic. —Confession0791 ^talk 14:16, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

Much of the scholarly focus of the "noise" of heavy metal and rock in general, such as volume, feedback, distortion, etc., is already in the noise in music article. I'd say take a look at that first.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 00:15, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I think "Metal Music" should be separated from "Heavy Metal Music"

Heavy Metal really is a subgenre of metal - they should not really be conflated as they are at the moment. Heavy Metal exclusively refers to the style of metal music that bands like Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and Metallica during their eponymous album phase played. "Heavy Metal Music" should not include death metal, black metal, doom metal bands, etc. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 23:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

We go by what reliable source say...and they don't say that. Sergecross73 msg me 23:47, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Which source DOES say that, then? Also many metal genres aren't a form of rock music, but the style "heavy metal" largely is - hence a separation would indeed be useful. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 01:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that sources like this don't exist? Thats preposterous. I did the most basic Google search and after 5 seconds found a WP:RSMUSIC- approved source "Heavy Metal 101: The History of Death Metal". I'm sure the rest could be just as easily proved. This is a Featured Article after all - which doesn't mean it's perfect...but it does making massive oversights going unnoticed rather unlikely. Sergecross73 msg me 03:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

would honestly agree. "Metal" is the umbrella term. "Heavy Metal" is the genre bands like Priest, Maiden etc play. At least thats the most common interpretation --FMSky (talk) 09:22, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Based on what? Sergecross73 msg me 11:28, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah we'll need the work to be done based on sources before anything else happens. Popcornfud (talk) 11:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. And even with sources, I believe this would be difficult to ever realistically discern - "heavy metal" and "metal" are commonly used interchangeably. (The article even addresses this currently.) Sergecross73 msg me 12:08, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

just the way i see it most commonly used, be it when personally talking with people or just in the internet in general. for example https://www.reddit.com/r/Metal/ , https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/metal/ or https://www.metal-archives.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by FMSky (talk • contribs)

All three of these are unreliable sources. — Czello ^(music) 15:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You're an experienced editor FMSky, so I'm rather shocked you would suggest that Reddit would be a usable source on Wikipedia. Are you really suggesting we restructure a Featured Article for parity with a Reddit group?? Seriously? Sergecross73 msg me 16:41, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I know and i'm not suggesting them as sources lol, i'm just saying that people in general (in real life or the internet) call the genre Metal most often, and its imo the WP:COMMONNAME--FMSky (talk) 16:48, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that part is closer to the point I was saying - the two terms are often used interchangeably. The article is likely at the heavy metal music article title and not any other variant because of WP:NATDAB reasons. But none of the things either one of us have talked about offer any sort of valid support for the split the IP is suggesting. Sergecross73 msg me 17:32, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Well I respectfully disagree - heavy metal may have been used as a catch all for "metal" in general, maybe forty years ago, but back then hard rock and acid rock were also used synonymously with the term, too. Even in this article, it says this. In this article it says that Gene Simmons does not consider Metallica to be heavy metal (I didn't check when those statements were made) and frankly I would agree with him (Metallica from 1983 until 1988, that is) - but it's undeniable that they are a metal band in general.

If you look at the different languages tab here, you'll see that many foreign Wikipedias do in fact differentiate heavy metal as a subgenre of metal in general, including but no t limited to the excellent German Wikipedia, which has an article for both "Metal" [music], and "heavy metal," and that this article, heavy metal music, redirects the page to the "Metal" page, not the "heavy metal," as well as the other languages that make this distinction. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 18:07, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Sources please! Popcornfud (talk) 18:09, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I provided no new information here, the sources that state hard rock and acid rock and whatever used to be used synonymously with heavy metal are literally in this article (if it's sourced) lmao 76.99.120.109 (talk) 18:18, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

You can "lmao" all you want, but you're not going to persuade your way into a WP:CONSENSUS to change without better detailing sourcing that shows that your stance is not only supported, but more prevalent than the current approach. You're a very long ways from that currently. Sergecross73 msg me 18:40, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Okay I came here quite politely with a popular contention about this article, and this whole time you have been quite rude and frankly condescending. If you want to ask me to provide sources for this potential change, you don't need to be so patronizing, especially as an admin for this site. Furthermore, you seem to be completely unreceptive to IDEA of a change here, and I don't think any source would be able to persuade you to inasmuch as even looking into this query...

I don't care that much about this to deal with this attitude. Most people have the nuance to understand that Wikipedia has conflated the metal umbrella with the heavy metal subgenre. It's not a good look, to be honest, but now I see why no one has had the nerve yet to make this change.

The German and Hebrew Wikipedias have this right. The English does not.

See ya later. 76.99.120.109 (talk) 04:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

This article is one of many that I maintain or mediate because it's a magnet for passersby editors to try to shape to their personal opinions rather than adhering to WP:V and WP:RS. Your proposal looks like that in a lot of ways. Maybe you're a victim of being grouped into all of that, but it's hard for me to believe that when you appear to be in multiple disputes related to your refusal to follow policy and guidelines. (Like the one currently ongoing on your own talk page.) You're not going to get anywhere if you refuse to learn how this website works, and that's on you, not me. Sergecross73 msg me 12:17, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, I'll agree with that. I realise that this requires extensive work with the sources. The state of wikipedia regarding metal categorisation is like the state of 2004, which is more confusing than useful compared to the rest of the internet. Almost all the information collected on this topic is from sources older than 15 years. Since then, so many genres have evolved and the history of previous genres has been thoroughly described that the distinction between " derived from" and " subspecies of" has become more necessary and meaningful. Obviously, heavy metal (aka traditional heavy metal) is its own thing with its own hierarchy that has spawned a branch of distinct plain metal. Calling the many types of extreme metal subspecies heavy metal is something that rather confuses the reader. So I would definitely support it if someone would start this effort. By the way, on many European wikipedias this situation has long been solved. Solidest (talk) 13:43, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It's been almost half a year and we haven't even had a single person provide evidence that high level reliable sources can even verify this, let alone find someone knowledgeable and motivated enough to take on such a massive undertaking. Sergecross73 msg me 14:05, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 12 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Clear community opposition (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 15:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

---

• Heavy metal music → Heavy metal
• Heavy metal → Heavy metal (disambiguation)

– Obviously the primary topic by a large margin. The only other thing that qualifies, Heavy metals, is already accounted for by being listed in its plural form. And then having a hat note like that "(This article is about the music genre. For the chemical elements, see heavy metals. For other uses, see heavy metal (disambiguation) " -- FMSky (talk) 15:19, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Note: pages with content, such as Heavy metal, are ineligible to be new titles in move requests unless they, too, are dispositioned. "Heavy metal → Heavy metal (disambiguation)" was added to this request to meet that requirement. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^{put'er there} 15:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Note that this exact move has been rejected at least twice previously:

• Talk:Heavy metal§Move? Dec 2011
• Talk:Heavy metal music/Archive 11§Requested move 17 April 2016

the first one was a completely different proposal --FMSky (talk) 16:45, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

How so? The proposal was to move the disambiguation page from "Heavy metal" to "Heavy metal (disambiguation)". It was part of a malformed request to move the dab page so that the genre article could take its place (or have a redirect). Omair00 had made some clumsy attempts to cut and paste the contents -- which was quickly reverted. Omair00 then made this malformed and poorly articulated request to "revert" that reversion of their cut and paste move. older ≠ wiser 11:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Suggest to clarify with data whether there has been any substantive change that might affect the previous determinations. older ≠ wiser 16:22, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Addendum, there was another move discussion in Nov 2008 resulting in moving the dab page back to heavy metal (it had been boldly moved in May 2006--I can't find any corresponding discussion). older ≠ wiser 16:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• oppose doesn't meet WP:PT1 the music article gets less than half half of the DBA traffic [1]—blindlynx 16:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

probably because people who are looking for the genre (and expecting to find that by just searching for "heavy metal") are getting redirected to the disambig page instead --FMSky (talk) 16:37, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

my point is more than half of the outbound traffic from the dab page is to something else, so clearly the music isn't what the majority of people searching for 'heavy metal' are after17:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC) —blindlynx 17:30, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

ah ok, now i get it --FMSky (talk) 17:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

sorry for not being clear —blindlynx 18:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

• https://wikinav.toolforge.org/?language=en&title=Heavy_metal indicates that in May '23 there were 1.4k incoming views, and in turn 837 outgoing views of the proposed primary topic, which is about 60%. This is typically not indicative of a clear primary topic by usage, but it's certainly debatable. It is however especially unclear because we see 346 incoming views coming *from* the proposed primary topic, so that's a bit confusing. I would prefer to track this data for a few months to try to figure out if this month's snapshot is an aberration or a part of a pattern. --Joy (talk) 10:40, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

  I wondered if this could be because of ambiguous incoming redirects. WhatLinksHere indicated a few possibilities like heavy-metal, all metal and even metal band which could conceivably be meant as chemistry terms or typos for chemistry terms? I checked https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/redirectviews/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-90&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&page=Heavy%20metal%20music but that didn't seem to indicate clearly what it could be, beyond a couple of hundred views of "metal band" and "metal rock"; at the same time it's unlikely that all of those views were ambiguous. Still, it might make sense to disambiguate those and see what the readers do with them. --Joy (talk) 11:10, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. The fact that the chemistry concept is at a plural title is irrelevant, as it is not an obligate plural like pants or scissors. This is borne out in uses in text:

• Pyura chilensis: "Vanadium is a heavy metal, considered toxic at any more than incidental levels"
• Conflict in the Niger Delta: "Lead is a heavy metal that accumulates around regions that produce extreme amounts of fossil fuels"
• Hyperaccumulator: "Thlaspi ochroleucum, is a heavy metal-tolerant plant, but it accumulates much less Zn in the shoots"
• Reproductive toxicity: "Cadmium is a heavy metal used in jewelry making, electronics, welding and galvanizing steel"
• Leaded copper"Lead is a heavy metal toxin".

Any one of the examples of metals in that group is individually called a "heavy metal", and that concept is of greater historical significance than even the most awesome of music genres. BD2412 T 02:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

• Strong oppose the medical topic is quite prominent. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 05:45, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't understand what the problem is. Searching for 'Heavy metal" already takes me to a disambig page. Sandbh (talk) 13:05, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Do you even know what this discussion is about? --FMSky (talk) 13:12, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Evidently not, in terms of its benefit. Sandbh (talk) 01:07, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

You should probably take a closer look at what is being proposed here. No one is suggesting things aren't working right, they're contemplating what content should be located at each location. Sergecross73 msg me 14:03, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

What content should be located at each location seems to work fine. If the proposal is that this could be made better then I'm not seeing the business case for so doing. Sandbh (talk) 01:09, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Not necessary. —Confession0791 ^talk 03:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Amazing argument --FMSky (talk) 08:08, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. Heavy metals can obviously also be seen in the singular. And there's nothing wrong with appending "music" for clarity. Unless you don't actually think it is music of course... -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:59, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Soul metal" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Soul metal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 27 § Soul metal until a consensus is reached. Tollens (talk) 18:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2023

Add the Oxford comma to the lists of 3 contained in this article. PlantRulx (talk) 22:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: MOS:SERIAL the Oxford comma is not required, as long as it is consistant within the article. RudolfRed (talk) 00:53, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Metal is it's own genre, not another rock subgenre. Please change.

Change it 38.143.53.98 (talk) 16:16, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Your opinion isn't shared by music critics and musicologists. Binksternet (talk) 16:19, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

We go by the stances of professional music publications, not anonymous opinions on the internet. Sergecross73 msg me 18:04, 15 September 2023 (UTC)