Stranger Than Fiction: A Conversation with Ian Hunter
The British rock legend talks about his new album Defiance Part 2 and what the future holds
When we last left Ian Hunter — almost exactly a year ago — he had just released his best album in years, Defiance Part 1.
That album, which was also Hunter’s Sun Records debut, was a star-studded affair that he recorded during the COVID-19 pandemic with producer Andy York. Defiance Part 1 included cameos from Ringo Starr, Duff McKagan and Slash, Billy Gibbons, Todd Rundgren, the surviving members of Stone Temple Pilots and many others. It also featured two musicians — drummer Taylor Hawkins and the legendary Jeff Beck — who have since left us. But despite all the big names, it felt like an intimate affair, tied together by Hunter’s excellent lyrics and insatiable love of rock and roll.
I talked to Hunter in 2023 for The Rock and Roll Globe and, at the time, he told me that Defiance Part 2 — which arrived on April 19th — would be a more political album. He wasn’t kidding.
Subtitled “Fiction,” Part 2 indeed feels like the bookend to Part 1. Once again, we get 10 songs (13 on the deluxe version) that alternate between rockers and ballads. Once again, Andy York produced. And once again, Hunter is assisted by a host of big name guests. If anything, the list of musicians this time around is even more diverse than on Part 1!
The guys from STP are back, as are Def Leppard frontman Joe Elliott, Johnny Depp (who also drew the cover portrait), Hawkins and Beck. But it gets better. The members of Cheap Trick appear on two songs; Hunter’s former Mott the Hoople bandmate, Morgan Fisher, plays keyboards on the title track; and Lucinda Williams adds her distinct vocals to the change-of-pace ballad “What Would I Do Without You,” a love song to Hunter’s wife of 52 years, Trudi.
Where Defiance Part 2 differs from its predecessor is that most of the songs are less personal and more topical. Hunter has said he’s “straight down the middle” politically and this is clear from some of the lyrics. On the rocking opener, “People,” he sings:
“Division is a bad idea/You must believe everything you hear
Remember when we used to laugh/Before they sawed us in half.
We need the left for decency/We need the right for money
But marketing, marketing, marketing is everything.”
Elsewhere, on “Kettle of Fish,” Hunter growls, “Stuck in the middle of the Great Divide/Ain’t too many grownups on either side.” And the title of “Everybody’s Crazy But Me” speaks for itself. Hunter ends the album, however, with an optimistic, piano-based ballad called “Hope.” “I’m well aware that life ain’t fair/You see it all the time,” he sings. “But I’ve seen smiles in poverty/And tears in the finest wine.”
I recently got to speak with Hunter again for the Rock and Roll Globe.
Beyond being a great songwriter, it’s inspiring to talk to someone who is still rocking at the age of 84!
I know how you recorded Part 1 — working during the lockdown with Andy York. [And] I know that [some] of the songs for Part 2 had already been recorded. [But] I’m curious to know why you released them as two separate albums, a year apart — as opposed to, say, a double album.
Well, I think that was Sun Records and my manager, you know? They decided they would split into two, I guess. I really don’t have much to do with that side of things. I’m glad it happened that way, though. Because I wrote a couple of extra ones. There’s a song called “Fiction” [that] I wrote more recently. But yeah — most of it was on a roll, around ’21, 22.
“Fiction” is sort of the sub-title [of the album]. It not only has [Mott keyboardist] Morgan Fisher on it, but a guy named David Mansfield. I [wanted] to ask you two questions. One is why you picked “Fiction” as the title track, such as it is. And also, what was it like working with David? He’s someone who’s done a lot of great work but you never hear about him.
He’s a smiler! He’s always got a smile on his face. It just so happens that we recorded it in Hoboken; James Frazee is the guy who did all the engineering on [both albums]. And Dave Mansfield works there! I kept bumping into him now and again. I said, “‘Fiction’s long. It needs a bit of color here and there. How’d you feel about that?” And he was like, “Great, no problem.” Very nice man. And like I say, a smiler!
I think someone [once] described him as being able to play every stringed instrument known to man!
Yeah. He’s got his own place there and that’s where he is — morning, noon and night.
I’m a big Cheap Trick fan and I know you worked on a couple of tunes with them. What was that like?
It was great, ‘cause I’ve known ‘em over the years. Last time I saw them was at Jones Beach. There’s a cage above the stage; they were on with Journey and Def Leppard. Rick [Nielsen] was doing a solo and he races up the stairs and he’s playing this solo in the cage! (laughs) Brilliant band. Should be on top of the heap.
One [song] that’s actually less political and more personal is “What Would I Do Without You?” I had two questions about that. One is what was it like singing with Lucinda [Williams]? And two — I noticed there’s a line in that song: “I was down in the Village with Overend one night.” I’m guessing that’s Pete [Watts], the bass player from Mott?
Yep. Pete and I went down to the Village one night. It was in the early days of my courtship with Trudi, my wife. There was an altercation (laughs). One of her friends had whispered something — you know, it wasn’t true. And I was just struck by this girl! I fancied her, you know? But she was angry at me right from the off! I’ve written [other] songs about Trudi over the years. But this particular one — it was difficult because she doesn’t sing. So I needed professional help! You know, I’d been down to Nashville with the Rant Band and Lucinda had come to a gig one night. I met her after the show, with her husband: they’re both lovely people. So we pursued Lucinda. And like a lot of the artists who do these things with me, she just sends a bunch of stuff and says, “Use what you want, don’t use what you don’t want.” Which gives you freedom. You know what I mean?
AUDIO: Ian Hunter feat. Lucinda Williams “What Would I Do Without You”
Right. Well, it’s a really lovely song. And I don’t have to tell you how rare it is for anyone — much less a rock and roll singer — to be married for decades. I think you told me that “Third Rail” was the last song Jeff [Beck] played on?
Yeah. You know, when Jeff plays on your record, sometimes he won’t okay it — because he had his standards, you know? Even though it’s him that’s done it, he’s not satisfied with it. So he won’t let it go. So he’d done [the songs] and we didn’t know if he was gonna okay them. And he okayed them just before [he died]. This was “Boom,” you know what I mean?
It’s kind of sobering.
Well, sobering is a good word. I was trying to find a word. It was like, “Oh shit.” And now this is gonna be publicity [which] it’s not meant for.
When we spoke last, we didn’t talk a lot about politics. But you did tell me that you were pretty much down the middle politically. I did want to ask you to elaborate on that — if you want to. Even though this album is more political (than part one), I didn’t see you pointing fingers at any specific person.
No! That’s not my business. I’m just trying to illustrate the situation. As far as who I like and who I don’t like, I don’t do that. I’m down the middle [and] we’re in a rough place whichever way you look at it. I don’t want to single any particular person out. You know, I’m in the music business! I’m not qualified.
I wanted to ask you about a couple of older things [too]. You obviously collaborated for many years with Mick Ronson. Tell me what he was like as a musical foil.
He was amazing — as an arranger and as a guitar player. [But] you had to ask him; he would never volunteer. Usually, when everyone else was exhausted — you know, you’d be in the studio and he would go, “Well why don’t you do this?” (laughs) And this is after hours of getting things wrong — and it would be right! Very modest kind of guy and I think it did him harm in places. He was too easy-going. But he was brilliant. And a great mate. My best mate for about 17 years. I loved the guy — still do.
I don’t think [it] was a hit, but I’ve always loved [the song] “When the Daylight Comes” [from the 1979 album You’re Never Alone with a Schizophrenic]. Any memories of that one?
Well, that was Ronno again. We were in the Power Station and I was talking to Bruce [Springsteen] and Meat Loaf. And he comes out and goes, “Are you gonna do these verses or not? ‘Cause if you don’t do them, I’m gonna do them.” I said, “You do ‘em then!” I carried on talking to Bruce and Meat Loaf. And he went back in and he did ‘em! (laughs) I went back in and it sounded great. So that’s the way we left it, with him singing the first two verses. I got back in time for the third!
It was a lot of fun in those days. Nothing was taken too seriously. We toured. We had two separate rooms [but] most of the time, we stayed in the same room. I’d wake up and he’d be arguing with The Price Is Right! (laughter)
AUDIO: Ian Hunter “When The Daylight Comes”
Maybe it’s because it was my youth, but it seemed like there was so much great music coming out in the late 70s — in so many different genres.
No, it was a great time. I’ve heard this said many times and I’ve always thought, “Yeah, right.” But the more I think of it, we were very lucky to be around at that time. It doesn’t seem the same [now]. I mean, after the war in England, it was a bit boring. So [rock and roll] came at the right time. Around ’54. Fats Domino, you know? Elvis, Jerry Lee [Lewis], Little Richard, Sam Cooke — my heroes. And boy, did it take you out of your house. I saw Buddy Holly live! Saw Little Richard live back then. In those days, American acts would come over and they would use English backing bands because they couldn’t afford to bring their own bands. The Atlantic was big. It was a great time. Jukeboxes all over the place. I was in gangs and stuff like that and we all met in these pubs. The jukebox in one pub would be all black [music] and we’d all be down there listening to that stuff. Cross the street and listen to white stuff. It was fantastic.
It sounds like it!
We got a little off track there. Sorry about that!
Not at all! I love going off track. I did wanna ask you about one more song on Part 2, though: the final track, “Hope.” When I was in school, I didn’t study journalism; I studied playwriting. When I first got out, I wrote a play [and] we did it off-off-Broadway. My director, who was older and more experienced, said, “Dave, we have to tweak the ending. You can bring an audience down but you can’t leave them down. You have to offer a ray of hope.” I’ve never forgotten that. And on Defiance Part 2, the last song is called “Hope.” I guess I wanted to ask you how, in a period of time like this, one hangs on to hope.
Well, you’ve just gotta look at the good stuff. You know, I’m 84; shit happens. You’ve gotta look at the good stuff; that’s all you can do. A lot of people don’t; that’s why we have problems.
You look at some people who are in real trouble. You know, people starving in Gaza and getting killed left, right and center. Kids and all that. I mean, at least we’re in one piece. For now, we’re alright. You just gotta look at the bright side.
Well, tell me what’s on the agenda for the rest of 2024. Is there gonna be a Part 3? Are you gonna be playing live?
That’s all iffy. There may be Part 3, but I’m three tracks in. So I might stop and that might be it. You know what I mean? I stopped for six years. I think I stopped when I was about 44 and I started again when I was 50. This is not a good idea! But if you’re not getting the songs, what are you gonna do? So I hesitate to [commit]. It’s not going too bad at the moment. You know, we’ll see if we can do Part 3.
As far as live’s concerned — things come up. At the moment, it’s iffy. If I do go out, it would be kind of acoustic and Q&A. I dream about gigging. It’s not a question of [whether] I want to; I seriously dream of gigging!
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