As a follow-up on an earlier thread my friend made 9 different profiles of the striped Pfalz D.III flown by Erich Kaus (did Betghe also fly this plane?) with varying colours and placements of the Jasta 30 diamonds.

You can view them on this page; http://home.planet.nl/~schul923/stripes.html
Can anybody tell me which one comes closest to the original plane?

Cheers,
Richard

Black on silver aluminum dope.

Hi All,

Sorry, Stephen, but I have to disagree with you this time.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a108/Gregvan/Jasta30KausD.jpg

I also apologize for responding to this thread, and earlier queries about this aircraft, so late. However, my thoughts on this aircraft have been pretty well explained in FMP's "Pfalz Aircraft of World War 1" by Jack Herris and in "Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1".

I think the grey and white theory was first postulated in a couple of articles in the German magazine "Modell Fan" around 1991. I think the articles were by a J�rg Galler, but the archive photos and captions were provided by respected colors historian Bruno Schm�ling. The captions stated that this machine was painted in stripes of 'mausgrau' and white, and that it had previously been flown by Bethge before it was taken over by Kaus. A color profile depicted it as such.

When I was writing the Pfalz book for Osprey, the eminent historian Manfred Thiemeyer pointed me to Otto Fuchs' book "Wir Flieger". This is a fictionalized but very informative book about Fuch's time as a two-seater airman, and as a Jagdflieger in Jasta 11 and 30. Though fictional names are substituted for those of real people, it's pretty easy to figure out who many of the characters actually are based on. Of his time in Jasta 30, he oftens describes "Werner" who is obviously Bethge. On page 134, he writes of Werner's Albatros: "Sein grau und weiss gestreifter Kampfeinsitzer gleicht einer schlanken, gefl�gelten Forelle." (loosely, a gray and white striped single-seat fighter, like a slim, winged trout). While Fuchs was describing an Albatros flown by Bethge, I think this is pretty good circumstantial evidence that the later striped Pfalz was painted gray and white for him too. That's just my opinion. I don't know if Bruno Schm�ling had any additional information to back up his statements, but he may have.

In looking at the attached photo, I can see no evidence of any factory-applied crosses, serial number or other data on the 'lighter' stripes, which leads me to believe that this was a painted pale color, and not the factory finish silver-gray. I think the vertical tail surfaces and the parts of the tailplane and elevators outside the black-outlined orange diamond were white as well.

Again, just my opinion.

Greg

Greg, I can certainly see your point of view here. Regards Stephen:goggles:

One more thought. I have been studying the Datafile #21 p. 13 and the applied colours of the top and middle images definately seem different - but are supposed to be the same scheme? In looking at the images (not the best quality)the ladder is in the same place and the fitter seems to be the same fellow. The propeller seems to be in the same attitude. The only other possibility is the film quality or development.

Greg, interesting point about the lack of visible overpainted markings. Would the Jastas have been issued supplies of silbergrau paint for repair purposes? Several of the other J.30 machines have their crosses overpainted and (black?) stripes painted on (p.73 of the Osprey book). Also, Baumer's D.VIII has had it's fuselage cross overpainted and moved aft, and the old cross is just barely visible.

Greg, interesting point about the lack of visible overpainted markings. Would the Jastas have been issued supplies of silbergrau paint for repair purposes? Several of the other J.30 machines have their crosses overpainted and (black?) stripes painted on (p.73 of the Osprey book). Also, Baumer's D.VIII has had it's fuselage cross overpainted and moved aft, and the old cross is just barely visible.


Baldeagle allow me to comment briefly. Check out the common images of Paul Ba�mer's Pfalz D.VIII (May 1918 Jasta B.) To allow for the application of his tricolour chevron, the fuselage cross was overpainted in silbergra� and repainted further aft on the fuselage. This was done at the unit level. The slight variation in the field applied silbergra� and the factory make a great contrast on a 1/48 kit I ws contracted to build a couple of years ago.

Stephen Lawson:
The Pfalz D.VIII fuselages was painted light grey, not aluminum. This was also the case with the Pfalz D.XII, D.XIV and D.XV.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Baldeagle:
When Idflieg awarded an order for some aircraft, there were spares as part of the order. It included everything that was used to manufacture that machine, spare components, wheels, tires, tubes patching materials, fittings, spars, longerons, formers, plywood, glue, screws, nails brads, linen fabric, thread, dope, paint and what ever. The spares were shipped to the same Armee Flugpark as the plane. The spares were held at the AFP and could be drawn from by the unit. The spare engines, machine guns and instruments were ordered by Idflieg and shipped to the designated AFP.
The allocation of aircraft to the units was done by Idflieg.
Happy New Year,
Dan-San

Hey Dan Glad to see you here. On the Pfalz D.VIII I disagree. Also the early Pfalz D.XII did use the lt blue on its fuselage as well. Remember the interiors we discussed?

Ries:
I am not sure that Oblt.Hans Bethge, Jastaf�hrer of Jasta 30, ever flew Ltn. Kaus Pfalz D.IIIa 8233/17.
His machine Pfalz D.IIIa 5888/17 was striped simular to Ltn.Kaus's D.III, but his stripes ended in a vertical plane with the rear cabane struts. Also there was a white band 700mm wide with the fuselage iron crosses centered there on. Oblt. Bethge was KIA flying this machine on 17 March 1918. Oblt. Bethge instituted Jasta 30 marking of the orange losenge with a black border, painted on the tailplane, both sides of the fuselage and the center of the upper wing ( not always.) I refer you to:Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1, page 72, bottom photo, D.IIIa on the right is Oblt.Bethge 's Pfalz D.IIIa 5888/17.
Happy New Year,
Dan-San

Ries:
I am not sure that Oblt.Hans Bethge, Jastaf�hrer of Jasta 30, ever flew Ltn. Kaus Pfalz D.IIIa 8233/17.
His machine Pfalz D.IIIa 5888/17 was striped simular to Ltn.Kaus's D.III, but his stripes ended in a vertical plane with the rear cabane struts. Also there was a white band 700mm wide with the fuselage iron crosses centered there on. Oblt. Bethge was KIA flying this machine on 17 March 1918. Oblt. Bethge instituted Jasta 30 marking of the orange lozenge with a black border, painted on the tailplane, both sides of the fuselage and the center of the upper wing ( not always.) I refer you to:Pfalz Scout Aces of World War 1, page 72, bottom photo, D.IIIa on the right is Oblt.Bethge 's Pfalz D.IIIa 5888/17.
Happy New Year,
Dan-San

Dan-San, how is that machine identified as 5888/17, is there a close up photo of it or written description somewhere?

Baldeagle:
I take it you doubt my word? I did the drawing in June 1979. If my memory serves me right from an article in Cross & Cockade I believe it was an interview Herr Kaus.
Baldeagle, I don't B.S. anyone. It may have been Peter Grosz's photos,
Happy New year,
Dan-San

no need to get defensive, I was just wondering how it was identified at 5888/17

Gents,

may I thank you all for the information you supplied on the subject.

I forwarded this thread to Mr Sergey Vlasenko from Kiev who is equally thankfull and has been able to use the info for recolouring a cardmodel of the Pfalz D.IIIa designed by Marek Pacynski from Poland.
Next to this one he also did a couple of other versions that now can be viewed and bought at http://www.teuton.org/dbarnett/ under the 'Sergeys Flying Circus' button.(please don't see this as a commercial add, it's the only place you can view Sergey's conversions)

Dan-San, thank you for the additional info on Bethge's plane, I purchased Greg's magnificent book only a couple of weeks ago and now see which plane you referred to in my other post.

A wonderfull and healthy new year to everyone!
Cheers,
Richard

Hi Gents,

Here's the nose view of the Kaus D.IIIa. I think this is the very same aeroplane as seen in the other photo I posted. There are a great many similarities, and I think they were taken within minutes of one another.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a108/Gregvan/Jasta30KausD-1.jpg

Yes, Baldeagle, I think stocks of the silver Pfalz paint were supplied to the Armee Flug Parks and probably also to any Jasta equipped largely with Pfalz D.III's and D.IIIa's. Reportedly, the "silvery-white" unit color adopted by Jasta 34b as a unit marking was chosen because they had stocks of the Pfalz silver paint on hand.

Also, Baldeagle, the serial number 5888/17 for the Pfalz D.IIIa that Bethge died in is given in Walter Zuerl's book "Pour le M�rite Flieger", on page 498 of my copy (in the section on pilots who almost won the "Blue Max" but missed it because of one reason or another). It quotes an official report on Bethge's death by Ltn. von der Marwitz. Bethge died on 17 March 1918.

The D.IIIa attributed to Kaus in the photos I've posted was 8233/17. This is visible (at the base of the interplane strut) on the very nice print of this photo loaned to me by Alex Imrie, and was quoted by Alex. However, it's entirely possible this a/c was also flown by Bethge prior to his death, and he was simply flying the different D.IIIa 5888/17 when he was killed. It would not have been unusual for a Staffelf�hrer of Bethge's status to have had two aircraft. Of course, that's just speculation, and my reasons for attributing the a/c in these photos - later flown by Kaus - to Bethge were explained in my earlier posts. So take that info and do what you want with it. To my knowledge there are no photos of a Jasta 30 Pfalz where the serial 5888/17 can be read, so we're left with speculation.

Have fun everybody, and Happy New Year!

Greg VanWyngarden

Richard,

Is it possible to share any pictures of Sergey's completed models. 1:33 is a fairly large scale for card models. It would be interesting to see how they turn out.

Steve

Steve,

you can find some pictures of Max Holztem's Pfalz on this page; http://www.teuton.org/dbarnett/photos.htm . This model is a repaint by Ron Burns but Sergey also repainted it. Another one, Degelow's Pfalz, Marek's original model, can be found in these forum threads; http://www.cardmodels.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4857&highlight=pfalz and http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=35885&t=35558#reply_35885 .
I haven't seen any pictures of Sergeys repaints yet but at the moment I'm building Hans Mullers red/white Jasta18 plane.

About the size of the finished model, it will have a wingspan of 28cm (11inch).

Cheers,
Richard

Steve,
You can find some pictures of Max Holztem's Pfalz on this page;
http://www.teuton.org/dbarnett/photos.htm ...
http://www.cardmodels.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4857 and
http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=35885&t=35558#reply_35885 ...
bout the size of the finished model, it will have a wingspan of 28cm (11inch).
Cheers,
Richard

Most impressive!

Thanks Greg, for more interesting info--

How do the shades compare with known blacks?

with the help of the descriptions on Bethge's Pfalz 5888/17 Sergey made a profile of this plane;
http://home.planet.nl/~schul923/bethge.jpg

how close is this rendering to the original aircraft?
comments are welcome.

cheers,
Richard

Richard:
The stripes were medium grey (Mouse grey). The radiator were painted aluminum. Otherwise fine.
Blue skies,
Dan-San

Dan-San,

thanks again!

Regards,
Richard