Talk:Dependent territory

Abyei and Pakistani administered Kashmir

The two polities that make up Pakistani administered Kashmir, Azad Kashmir and Gilgit Baltistan, are dependent territories of Pakistan that are (are Pakistan's constitution) not integral parts of Pakistan. They thus meet the definition of a "dependent territory" defined in this article and should be included. They are treated as akin to dependent territories on the main list of sovereign states page. Likewise Abyei is a condominium created by an international treaty governed by a joint administrative body appointed by Sudan and South Sudan. It is thus a polity that was created by international agreement with sovereignty limitations and meets the criteria for inclusion. XavierGreen (talk) 19:04, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Comment I wouldn't support the inclusion of condominiums, otherwise, we should include Antarctica in our list too. You have raised an interesting point about Pakistan. I don't know much about Pakistani politics, we need comments from an expert in order to reach a consensus here. 2001:8003:913E:5D01:F131:5FC3:17B5:18E6 (talk) 13:04, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi, not exactly an expert on the subject but a lot of what OP is saying seems to correct according to what I've been reading. It would appear that Pakistan has not incorporated Kashmir into itself and, at the very least nominally considers it its own thing, even though its hardly the case, being that Kashmir depends on Pakistan in economic and administrative regards. Hell, even the president of Pakistan literally said

”Azad Kashmir has its separate identity with a President and Prime Minister. It is not a province of Pakistan.”, and then his spokeperson replied with ”Pakistan does not claim Kashmir as an integral part. Kashmir is disputed. We however, hope that when Kashmiris are able to exercise their right to make a choice, they would opt for Pakistan”

Its such a rare case, all my life ive seen heads of state filling their mouths with cheap speeches of patriotism and how their ownership of x land is righteous, while these fellas are almost like ”eh, itd be cool if they stayed but whatevs” 201.235.236.10 (talk) 05:05, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Edit warring

Hello all. Please remember or take a look at the following policies (specially if you are an experienced editor!):

• WP:EDITWAR
• WP:CONSENSUS
• WP:DISPUTE

"If an edit is too complex to explain in an edit summary, or the change is contentious, add a section to the talk page that explains your rationale." Cheers! Thinker78 (talk) 20:58, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

UN list of dependent territories

User:Chipmunkdavis, User:Roger 8 Roger, User:Xevres, User:Wee Curry Monster My addition of the United Nations list of non-self-governing territories was reverted and object of a dispute. We should discuss whether to add it or remove it or something else.

Although there is a stand-alone page for it, the practice is prevalent to mirror some content of subtopics in the relevant pages. Therefore, I don't think my succinct table is redundant. In fact, I think omitting said information from this page is less than ideal, because it is essential information to the subject of the page. There may be text indicating that a dependent territory is on the UN list but it would be more practical and better format to have a separate table of said list as well. Thinker78 (talk) 21:42, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Mirroring the table is redundant. We don't eg. have the US State Department list of dependent territories. CMD (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm puzzled by the section added above, aimed as it is toward a bunch of seasoned editors, it seems to me to violate WP:DTTR and aimed to browbeat your fellow editors. I'm sure that I may have misconstrued your motives but felt it important to bring to your attention, ie even if that were not your intention it rather frames your approach to comments. To add to the discussion, I am mildly in favour of the addition of that table but I also recognise the strong arguments against it; namely that is to some extent redundant and incomplete. As such I'm not inclined to press for inclusion, rather suggesting that a more rounded and complete approach is required. As currently formulated I'm not in favour of inclusion but I would be prepared to consider a constructive proposal that addresses the concerns presented. WCM_email 17:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Argumentum ad verecundiam. I have been in Wikipedia long enough to know that senior editors are not perfect (btw, I did not use a template). But tbh before posting the policies I was going to report the page to the edit warring noticeboard to be analyzed by editors more experienced about the issue. I decided against and instead just post the aforementioned thread that generated irk. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 04:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis maybe we should, as the US is a world power. I would understand if we don't have 10 lists of 10 different countries or organizations in this page. But it may be a good idea to include a select few of the most notable ones and make mention of others. After all, how was the current list compiled? Does it pick and choose items to include, does it have consistency? Thinker78 (talk) 20:49, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

It was compiled by consensus, and does have consistency. There are always questions around the system (as there are with all similar topics), however these are more noticeable here as a reflection of the topic itself, which has always somewhat of a term of convenience. CMD (talk) 01:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Åland

Many other administrative subdivision inhabit a special position guaranteed by an international treaty. Dependent territories has a specific legal meaning, the list of countries under the UN List of Non-Self-Governing Territories (16) are the only remaining inhabited dependent territories. I propose stripping out anything that doesn't relate to that list. I propose to remove Åland from this page. Onlk (talk) 14:21, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

The article for the UN list is United Nations list of non-self-governing territories, which has a list of its 17 entries. It would be good to get a source on this specific legal meaning. CMD (talk) 01:37, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Åland is not in UN M49 List, not in US Bureau of Intelligence and Research list of Dependencies and Areas of Special Sovereignty, not in CIA lists: [1] and [2]. Entities with only limited unique autonomy, such as the autonomous regions of Portugal, the Canary Islands and the autonomous cities of Spain, Barbuda of Antigua and Barbuda, Nevis of Saint Kitts and Nevis, Zanzibar of Tanzania, and Sabah and Sarawak of Malaysia are also not included. Why do include Åland then? --Onlk (talk) 11:04, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

That green text has nothing to do with Åland, as it is not there for that reason. It is there due to a very old merger with territories under international treaties. I am unsure how this relates to your original post, which was about changing the list to echo the UN Non-Self-Governing Territories list. CMD (talk) 12:14, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

My original proposal is to remove Åland from this page. --Onlk (talk) 12:15, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Your proposal, as written, was "stripping out anything that doesn't relate to that [UN] list". If you want to make a discussion specifically about Åland, I suggest crafting a new post which specifically discusses Åland. CMD (talk) 12:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

I would agree with the proposal to remove Aland, since it isn't by any applicable definition a dependent territory. I have commented previously that this article is a bit of a mess and continues WP:OR and WP:SYN over the definition of a dependent territory. The wooliness of the definition of a dependent territory has perhaps allowed this to persist but its long overdue for a clean up. WCM_email 13:06, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

According to the lead, "A dependent territory, dependent area, or dependency (sometimes referred as an external territory) is a territory that does not possess full political independence or sovereignty as a sovereign state, yet remains politically outside the controlling state's integral area."

According to its page, "Åland is governed according to the Act on the Autonomy of Åland and international treaties. These laws guarantee the region's autonomy from Finland, which has ultimate sovereignty over them".

There seems to be a case for it being a dependent territory. Thinker78 (talk) 20:43, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

Aland is an integral part of Finland and under Finnish sovereignty. No sources describe it as a dependent territory, its inclusion here is partially based upon individual editors interpretation based on the definition of a dependent territory, which is WP:OR and WP:SYN. As such that isn't ground for inclusion, we should be guided by what sources actually say not by our own interpretation. And that in a nutshell is what is wrong with the article. WCM_email 09:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

"[...] we should be guided by what sources actually say not by our own interpretation". Good point. Thinker78 (talk) 01:04, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I guess if it doesn't have backing by a reference it can be removed per WP:VERIFY. Thinker78 (talk) 02:39, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Not sure this sock conversation is a good place to discuss this, but it is quite easy to find sources describing or treating Aland as a dependent territory (eg. [3][4]). Aland is at any rate not included in the main list of dependent territories on this page, despite the impression it is in the conversation above. CMD (talk) 03:17, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

It has its own section under Finland. The previous discussion I was involved in had not cites but rather it was editor's interpretation of what a dependent territory was. Now that someone has provided a cite, I'll withdraw my comment. WCM_email 08:08, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• CU note Onlk is the sock of a globally banned user. I would remove all their comments here, but they have already been replied to. They should be given zero weight when determining consensus; I'll leave y'all to figure out what you want to do now. Girth Summit _(blether) 13:07, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

The West Bank and Gaza?

Should this article list the West Bank and Gaza as Dependent Territories? Per the Gaza article: "The territories of Gaza and the West Bank are separated from each other by Israeli territory. Both fell under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority, but the Strip is governed by Hamas, a militant, fundamentalist Islamic organization, which came to power in the last-held elections in 2006." Rxtreme (talk) 19:40, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

A dependent territory must be legally external to the metropolitan state, which in turn must exercise control over it. How does this apply? TFD (talk) 19:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)