Neal Brennan Thinks We’ve Failed By Turning ‘Crazy Good’ Comedians Like Dave Chappelle and Joe Rogan Into Moral Authorities

Neal Brennan’s first big claim to fame came two decades ago when he co-created, wrote and executive produced Chappelle’s Show with his friend Dave Chappelle (with whom he’d previously collaborated on Half Baked).

Since then, Chappelle has become both the biggest stand-up comedian in the world and a lightning rod for criticism. Brennan, meanwhile, has released three stand-up comedy specials of his own, and directed acclaimed specials for Al Madrigal, Michelle Wolf, and Seth Meyers.

Crazy Good, Brennan’s fourth special, and third for Netflix, premiered earlier this week. Before that, he sat down with Decider on April Fool’s Day to explain why it’s foolish for us as a society to put our faith and trust in comedians to be our sources of news and/or moral leadership. These are excerpts from our conversation.

DECIDER: In recent years, the idea that comedians have mental issues almost feels like it has become hack even within the comedy community just because so many more comedians bring it up onstage now in terms of talking about going to therapy or dealing with depression, anxiety, ADHD, addiction, etc.

NEAL BRENNAN: Sean, I’ve thrown all that away. I’ve betrayed my depressed brothers and sisters. Mental illness is overly stigmatized, obviously. I have a few thoughts about it. One of them is like there’s a lot of upside, as evidenced by the special. And also I don’t feel that way anymore. I’m not depressed. That wasn’t the key to my output. So what I’m saying is like it being crazy is good. But also, if you’re not crazy, enjoy yourself and have fun. 

In terms of comedians or stand-up comedy, would it be fair, then, to say that the common stereotype or trope of the sad comedian is really, we’re looking at it the wrong way? We shouldn’t be looking at the sad clown. We should be looking at the crazy clown?

I go down the list, and I didn’t go down it longer, just because it’s so obvious… And I literally say, I’m not even gonna mention the alcoholics. It’s like, anyone who does it is mentally ill. So it’s just a matter of like the type (of illness). The other big issue is the standards that we’re holding for comedians is another sort of just dishonest, childish expectation. And not the job. Not the job.

And yet, you mentioned Joe Rogan in your special, but then also Dave Chappelle. These people have massive platforms and audiences who are listening and looking to them, who are saying, we’re just comedians, but somehow also weighing in on and leading the conversations on weighty issues.

But they were always weighing in on them. They were never not weighing in on them. It just didn’t make a difference before. They were always just like “Ah, that’s a comedian” and at a certain point, I believe the early 2000s when Jon Stewart and Chris Rock — and I would even throw Michael Moore in there, and Bill Maher with Religulous — became kind of considered more important. They got bumped up a notch. And I don’t think, you know, Jon would tell you as much. I mean, his final Daily Show before he “unretired” was like… it didn’t help. FOX is more powerful than they were when I started. It seems like advocacy, but mostly it’s just grist for the mill. It’s like, is Dave helping or hurting trans people one percent, one direction or the other? Statistically I’m gonna bet not. I can’t prove it, but they can’t prove that he is. You know what I mean? But it’s a good position to be in. And it’s a good position to be, like, victimized by this comedian. But it’s like, yo, the whole thing was supposed to be about being funny and then it became leadership. And the analogy I’ve been making is people complaining that Snickers bars aren’t very nutritious. No shit. It’s a Snickers bar. If you’re looking for leadership about any issue, why are people going, well, what do the clowns think? It’s insane. 

Do you have any theories of why that happened?

Yeah! Because the media has lost credibility. I mean, media, politicians, clergy and business leaders all went for the money and/or, in the case of clergy, the sex. So everyone else, if you’re a profit-driven business, you’re not gonna be ethical. And you’re gonna be rife with contradictions, and, or not even contradictions — hypocrisy, especially in media.

Rock did that joke on SNL, where he’s like, “I didn’t know what Walter Cronkite looked like in Bermuda shorts. Why do I know what Anderson Cooper…?” Because it’s all entertainment. It’s all the Neil Postman shit. It’s all entertaining, “Amusing Ourselves To Death,” and then going like, uh, I don’t like what the guy who played Rick James thinks about trans issues! OK. 

It’s also, as you describe in a bit in your special, social media influencers.

Yeah.

Rogan and other comedians on their podcasts will defend themselves by saying, we’re just comedians, while sincerely pushing their opinions. How much do you think social media or podcasting has blurred the lines for audiences in terms of thinking of comedians purely as entertainers versus thinking of them as influencers?

And then everybody asks is comedy under attack? And it’s like, no, it’s not under attack. It’s more like, it’s all these questions of credibility. Like comedians are news anchors now. And that’s not because comedians are pretending to be news anchors. That’s because news anchors are topless on New Year’s Eve. Or news anchors are, you know, David Muir is like a model. It’s like, he looks like a fashion model. Again, that doesn’t mean he’s not a good broadcaster. But I’m just saying like, the incentives, the structure, everything’s perverted and then people are turning to comedians and then the news is trying to blame comedians for it. So the NIH’s total fucking mangling of the COVID vaccine and mask rollout is Joe Rogan’s fault?  And then you go, well, Joe needs to be, no he doesn’t. The minute Joe becomes a news thing, he’s not, it’s no fun. The whole thing is I’m just some guy. And here’s what I think. And so many people liked him and appreciated the stuff he said that it just had a huge following. It’s not then his responsibility to change the messaging. Well, now that you’re all listening, let me put myself in the principal’s office and just read what I’m supposed to read.

So it’s not the comedians who asked to be put in this position.

It’s everyone else failed. It’s a failure. 

The people we expected to be leaders like politicians or journalists have failed.

Clergy, media, corporate America. Yeah. They’re incapable. They can’t do it. And I’m not talking about the comedians who broke laws. Like that’s a separate thing. I’m talking about the comedians who failed us. It’s silly. Is Ellen (DeGeneres) nice? What? Did she give millions of dollars away to charity? Then yes, she’s nice. Is she fucking hilarious? Then yes, she’s nice.

Is Neal Brennan nice?

Yes! But I’m also not that popular! You know what I mean? But I’m sure there’s people that have some story about me and then I’ll read the story and go like that didn’t happen, whatever. I’m not approaching this from a point of view of like, I could be next. I’m approaching it from a point of view of like, what are you talking about? What? When did that become the expectation? Meanwhile, everyone’s got an iPhone and Steve Jobs was the biggest piece of shit apparently to work with. So where’s the outrage? 

I suppose a more appropriate question for me to ask you is not whether Neil Brennan is nice or not, but is Neil Brennan up 24 /7 texting comedians as Mike Birbiglia and Seth Meyers said in a recent episode of Birbiglia’s “Working It Out” podcast?

Oh yeah, no, I heard those cocksuckers say that. Look, they’ve gotten their final front line recommendation from me. Won’t happen again, fellas. Won’t be making that mistake again. I’ll keep it for myself. (laughing) And yes, I do not have children and I like sharing the wealth of media I get to ingest  as a single man. Well, I guess I have a girlfriend, but I don’t have children. 

So when you come across something that you find humorous, you want to share that. 

Right. I’m not going to hide my light, I’m gonna spread the wealth. (laughing)

You’ve directed specials for other stand-ups and directed yourself in Crazy Good, but for your previous Netflix special, Blocks, you brought in Derek DelGaudio to direct. What did having him behind the camera teach you?

It’s nice to have other eyeballs and another hand on the tiil, steering wheel. And I think eventually it comes down to like, I’m more kind of market-based. So I’m kind of just like, let’s go, like if a joke doesn’t work, cut it. I’m like very sort of dogged about effectiveness. So it’s nice to have somebody that’s more just kind of like, yeah, maybe let that breathe. Another set of eyeballs to give an opinion, it’s helpful for sure. And especially on the live version with Blocks in New York, I never saw it (for myself). So having somebody there like Derek to guide it in that regard was very helpful. 

Dave Atell just had his first special in a decade come out on Netflix and he talked about how ruthless he was editing his special down to 35 minutes, just getting rid of any moments from his performance he didn’t think were funny. 

He even says that joke stinks in one of the jokes he kept. So yeah, mine’s 53 (minutes). (Marc) Maron made a comment that may in retrospect have been passive aggressive, if you can believe it. Like I watched all 58 minutes of it, but it’s like, no, I did an hour and five minutes. (John) Mulaney said a long time ago, he had that “why buy the cow” joke. And I go are you closing with that? And he goes no, I’m putting it third because people turn these things off after the first few minutes. So like I’m of the mind of like let’s go, but I cut out applause breaks. I don’t assume that this is all a wonderful jazz piece. I’m like no, what’s the next thing I can literally watch? Anything that’s ever been recorded. What are you going to say? And just keep it coming. Here’s another thing here, here, here, here. And then it’s over. 

How important then was it for you to be able to revisualize some of your bits differently?

I remember Jerrod Carmichael points out that I said to him at one point about his act. This is I don’t know 10 years ago And it’s kind of based on a thing that Chris Rock would say a lot, which is like this isn’t radio. It’s why Eddie Murphy moves so much. Because he’s like, give people something to look at. So the set behind me is expensive as hell. It changes colors. And then I do the framing bit, and then for the commercials, for the religious attack ads, I do the commercials. I try to make it more than just a man standing, talking, like more than a podcast.

I’m competing, we’re all competing with everything. So this idea of like, no, you should watch me sit. No, I’m not good enough to watch sit. I need every bell and whistle I can possibly throw with people ’cause I’m not. I need help. And I’m not afraid, I’m not like ashamed to say like, no, no, no, I want visuals and it’s also just, you know, most of these things end up as clips anyway. Even on clips on Instagram, there’s pictures if you’re talking about (something). There’s people in front of other video. It’s all been sort of charged. All mediums have to step up, except podcasts, which ironically could be two-and-a-half hours long and just two people talking. Somebody had a great observation of like, I can’t, I won’t talk to my friends on the phone, but I’ll listen to any two strangers talk for two-and-a-half hours without a question. So, yeah, so I’m just of the mind that in the attention economy, I’m not too proud to try to help myself.

Since we’re speaking on April 1, what do you hope people think about comedians or clowns, if we’re not supposed to think of them as civic leaders?

t should be like stress release and a ballast to the punishment of life. It should be fun. So this idea, obviously like (George) Carlin, he’s a poet and all that. He’s a drug addict. Louis CK, philosopher king? Go on!. All this stuff of like exalting people, it’s like, cut it out. No one can live up to this. And it’s also incredibly childish that you need another person to do that when you can. So that’s my feeling about all this stuff is like, it’s childish, it’s just, I get, I understand it. I understand how it happened, et cetera. But like, the Supreme Court has no credibility. But so, all right, Rogan and Chappelle: Step up! What? Clarence Thomas is given RVs, but I expect more from you, clown.

Well, that’s just John Oliver’s fault for becoming an Emmy-winning voice for calling us to action. Perhaps now we expect more of everyone else?

He’s a consumer advocate, but he didn’t move to America to be a consumer advocate  I think he kind of like fell into it.

There’s all this thing of like competitive ethics. I just find like, I don’t know guys, I don’t want to participate in this. Like I’m the most ethical, you know what, my ethics? I don’t, I’m not, I’m never going to win that. Cause I’m just not, and I don’t want to play. No one can win. Gandhi, racist. Should I go on? Martin Luther King, philanderer. And then you get assassinated.

So, I guess I won’t ask you what your thoughts are on Palestine.

You don’t wanna know! (laughing) Yes, also, who cares? And I would hugely disappoint you, but I’m not going to say which direction.

Sean L. McCarthy works the comedy beat. He also podcasts half-hour episodes with comedians revealing origin stories: The Comic’s Comic Presents Last Things First.