Talk:2040s

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2043[edit]

Hello -- It was suggested by editor HiLo48 that I seek here for an editor to discuss a listing on this page that he was reticent about. Following is the intended addition under the year 2043 -- the portion within double parentheses.

(( 2043 will see the close of 6000 years of human history, according to the count of years in the Hebrew Old Testament. This may be readily computed by placing the construction of Solomon's Temple (1 Kings 6:1) at 966 BC, a widely accepted date based on the work of Edwin Thiele in the mid 20th century. From 966 BC count back 2992 years to the first man, as given in the Old Testament record (1656 Adam to the Flood, 427 to Abraham, 430 to the Exodus, 479 to 1 Kings 6:1.) This places the first man at 3958 BC. 6000 years forward takes one to 2043 AD. ))

That is the listing I wished to make. Following is an explanation. This is not original research. The periods 1656, 427, 430, 479 are readily attested in many sources and have been for many years, for they are taken directly from the Old Testament. The essential research was by Edwin Thiele establishing the date 966 BC. Today this date is widely credited. (I personally studied it closely for several years -- it is approved by Kenneth Kitchen of Egyptological fame, David Rohl of Archaeological fame, and countless others -- it is the standard.) The date even appears in a footnote in the NIV Study Bible.

The Subject Itself

It may seem an odd subject to persons that have not been involved with it. But the subject itself has moved entire segments of Christian society -- western society -- over centuries. It motivated Isaac Newton's very deep research for his book "The Chronology of Ancient Kingdoms Amended." On Wikipedia you can find an article "Religious view of Isaac Newton" including his conclusions that the Millennial Kingdom could begin in 2060 or 2034.

In the early 1800s William Miller, founder of the Adventist Movement (of which there are various branches) changed the course of Christianity with his studies pointing to the close of 6000 years. In the later 1800s Charles Russell, founder of the Watchtower Society, did likewise. These are two major forces within Christianity of the last two centuries. (I am not an Adventist, and I am not a member of the Watchtower Society -- I am merely pointing out the significance of this subject upon western Christian society.)

The importance of the close of 6000 years according to the Hebrew Old Testament was expressed as early as the 1st century ad in an early Christian writing, "The Epistle of Barnabas." It was held by some Jewish theologians before that (and thus came into the Christian discussion).

It is not some arbitrary question. It is not like asking when 3000 years, or 4000 year, or 5000 years end -- the significance of the question is unique to the end of 6000 years, because of the special place the "Seventh Millennium" has held for centuries in both Jewish and Christian thought.

The point is not whether one agrees or disagrees with Genesis. The point of posting this is that the question has been a deeply meaningful one to Western Jewish and Christian thought for a long time. And now (because of the study of Edwin Thiele of the last century), the question can be resolved.

Is it agreeable to proceed with this posting?

Should we modify it in some way?

With interest -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 06:00, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

2043[edit]

Hello, all -- It has been a week since my last message above. So far, no objections to my proposal, apparently. I believe I have addressed all concerns. (1) The original research was by Edwin Thiele of last century, (2) All the other components (Adam to Flood, to Abraham, to Exodus, to Temple) have been recognized for centuries, (3) The subject has been of deep interest and influence in Western Jewish and Christian circles for a long time -- even Isaac Newton was concerned about the subject. (4) It is not a matter of accepting or otherwise the Hebrew Old Testament, as you will know, a posting does not need to agree with an editor's personal views, but to address a subject of meaning and significance and depend on previous published studies.

I think the post I suggest passes all the requirements.

Any comments? If not, then in perhaps another week I will venture to post the content under 2043.

Thank you -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 22:47, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

2043[edit]

Hello, no concerns voiced, so I will proceed with the posting. Thank you -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 23:32, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

It's not just that no concerns were raised. NOTHING was raised. That does not mean the community supports your addition. More likely, nobody saw this proposal. There's no need to rush. See Wikipedia:There is no deadline. HiLo48 (talk) 00:18, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello, HiLo48 -- Thank you for your reply. I thought that you -- and anyone else active on the subject "2040s" -- would be notified of any new change, such as my comments above on this Talk forum. (1) Is that correct, or am I mistaken? In which case I supposed anyone interested would see my replies to any concern, and reply with any further concerns. (2) I thought I had answered your concern about "reliable sources." Should I respond to this concern afresh? (3) How should I proceed with this? Sincerely -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 18:55, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
Editors aren't explicitly notified of changes to articles they're interested in. I have this article on my Watchlist, which means I can see when it changes if I look at my Watchlist, but I have a lot of other articles there, so I could easily miss it. I suspect that not too many editors are watching this one. It's a long way in the future. Which reinforces my point about there being no deadline. HiLo48 (talk) 00:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Ok, thank you -- So any comments on questions (2) and (3) above? -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 20:36, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Hello, HiLo48 -- A week has passed, without reply. How should I proceed? -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 06:38, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
I looked up above, and saw mention of Wikipedia:WikiProject Years. I've placed a request on that Project's talk page, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Years to see if I can attract some more eyes. HiLo48 (talk) 06:52, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
thanks for this inquiry. as per Hebrew calendar, the current year according to the numbering system from the Old Testament is 5780. so the year 6000 is still 220 years away. I appreciate the post here on this subject. I hope that's helpful. thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 13:10, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, Sm8900 -- Thank you for your comment. The Hebrew Calendar is not the issue. Everyone knows it is many years off in the Persian period, and elsewhere. It is the now widely accepted work of Edwin Thiele that 1 Kings 6:1 dates to the spring of 966 bc, that is the original research at issue here. From Adam to Solomon the periods are defined -- 1656 to the Flood, 427 to Abraham entering Canaan, 430 to the Exodus, 479 to 1 Kings 6:1. (And attested in many published sources for a long time.) When these well defined periods from the Old Testament are strung backward from 966 BC, and then 6000 years are projected forward, we get the year 2043 for the end of 6000 years from Adam. The point of our post is that the original work of Edwin Thiele -- as I say, now widely accepted -- provides the long studied result. (Edwin Thiele was a professor Semitic studies, he was an original researcher of the Assyrian historical tablets, and connected them to the intertwined testimony of Kings and Chronicles.) By long studied -- I mean Isaac Newton and scores of thoughtful prophetic writers have plied these waters since, and others before. The concern for this issue dates back to at least the late BC era. Newton's results were within decades of the right answer -- now we can be more precise. After abundant centuries of discussion -- it really does merit notice in the brief post proposed. Is it agreeable that we proceed? -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 08:28, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, HiLo48 and Sm8900 -- I have not heard anything further for a week. I believe I have kindly replied to every concern. Shall I proceed? The subject has been of deep interest to Christian researchers for some centuries, including some of the brightest minds of history, Isaac Newton among them. The original research of Edwin Thiele, widely accepted today, now resolves the question. Which is -- According to the Hebrew Old Testament, when will 6000 years close? The subject seems worthy of notice, and the evidence is straight forward. Shall I proceed? If there is no objection, then I will submit the post. Thank you -- Sincerely -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 00:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello, HiLo48 and Sm8990 -- No reply for several days, so I will proceed. Thank you both -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 20:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)
If you provide a reliable source to back up your claim then we can look into adding it. We are not going to go by your word on this just as we wouldn't for any other editor as that is called original research. So please provide us with a book.... attributed to a noteworthy author is desired, or maybe an academic source? We need something to verify what you say is true. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:52, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello, Knowledgekid87 -- Ok, I had wished to keep the entry brief, but let me source it better. Here following is the post I propose, everything within double parens, with footnotes. The only real "new" information is the original research by Edwin Thiele. The other figures from the Hebrew Old Testament are long standing. Please advise if this entry would be agreeable. Thank you -- David Rice
(( 2043 will see the close of 6000 years of human history, according to the count of years in the Hebrew Old Testament. This may be readily computed by placing the construction of Solomon's Temple (1 Kings 6:1) at 966 BC, a widely accepted date based on the work of Edwin Thiele in the mid 20th century.{1} From 966 BC count back 2992 years to the first man, as given in the Old Testament record (1656 Adam to the Flood,{2} 427 to Abraham,{2} 430 to the Exodus,{2} 479 to 1 Kings 6:1.){3} This places the first man at 3958 BC. 6000 years forward takes one to 2043 AD.
{1} Edwin R. Thiele, "The Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew Kings," copyright 1951 by the University of Chicago, Eerdmans Publishing Company, Revised edition, October, 1965. On page 55 of the 1965 edition, Thiele puts the 40th and last year of Solomon running from "Tishri 931 to Tishri 930" BC. Thus his year four would be from Tishri 967 BC to Tishri 966 BC, so that the spring of Solomon's fourth year, when he founded the Temple (1 Kings 6:1), would be in 966 BC. This date has been widely supported since. See Eugene Merrill, "Kingdom of Priests, A History of Old Testament Israel," 1991, page 293, "The temple was begun in 966 [BC]." Also Kenneth Kitchen, "On the Reliability of the Old Testament," 2003, Eerdmans Publishing Company, Table 7, page 83. The NIV Study Bible cites "966 BC" in a footnote to 1 Kings 6:1, as fixed by "events in the reigns of later Israelite kings and Assyrian chronological records."
{2} "Studies in the Scriptures," Volume 2, 1889, pages 43, 44.
{3} 1 Kings 6:1 (from the Exodus in the spring, to year number 480 in the spring, was 479 intervening years). ))DavRice (talk) 06:41, 2 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello, Knowledgekid87 -- It has been a week since my revised proposal above. I have endeavored to cover the concerns raised. Is it agreeable that I proceed with this entry? Please advise. If no comment after a few more days, we will proceed. Thank you -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 19:01, 9 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello, Knowledgekid87 -- No comment after several days, so I will proceed. Thank you -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 09:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
I reverted your addition. An absence of responses is not the same thing as consensus. Your comments above addressed to Knowledgekid87 probably haven't been noticed. I suggest you have a read of Help:Notifications to learn about how to ping other users. HiLo48 (talk) 11:53, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello, HiLo48 -- I don't think in this case that Knowledgekid87 was unaware. On my talk page, and on his, there have been interactions, leading to the comments above. I think I have responded agreeably to every concern. But let me ping him and you on this -- to determine whether perhaps Knowledgekid87 was unaware of my replies to his concerns. @Knowledgekid87:@HiLo48: Thank you -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 05:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Hello, All -- It has been more than two weeks since my last input here, and it seems timely to proceed. I have modified the proposed post to accord with the concerns expressed. Perhaps a lingering concern is that the post I propose references the Bible. If one does not value the Bible personally, it is understandable that one may not be enthusiastic about this post. So please bear with a further explanation. The question itself is: "When do 6000 years from Adam close, according to the Hebrew Old Testament." The question is a long standing one that has concerned literally millions of people from the first Century AD forward. The matter is referred to in Christian writings in the first century. The matter was of interest to many in the 800s ad era, at the time of Charlemagne. It continued of interest for centuries, and was a significant factor in the Adventist Movement of the early 1800s, whence derived Seventh Day Adventists, which today number in the millions. It was a motivating factor in the Watch Tower Society during the 1970s, and before, and that group also numbers in the millions. The issue is of interest among Mormon Christians, and they also number in the millions. I am not a member of any of these three groups. I cite them only to evidence that the question has had thoughtful meaning to Western Culture for centuries, and continues so. It was a matter of deep, focussed attention for Isaac Newton, so that he wrote a book on history to narrow down the solution. And many other bright minded, notable figures of Western Culture. What we have today is a resolution of the question -- for good or bad, meaningful or meaningless -- because of the original research of Edwin Thiele, now widely accepted, securing the time of 1 Kings 6:1. I was urged to document this -- so I have, in the proposed post. I was urged to specify leading contemporary scholars today that concur with the original research of Edwin Thiele of the 20th century -- so I have. I was urged to document the periods leading to 1 Kings 6:1. It was a reasonable request -- so I have complied with that also in the proposed post. It seems timely to proceed. I have endeavored not to rush, but to be moderate, temperate, amicable. So let me wait a bit further. And in a couple of days further, I will proceed. Thank you -- Sincerely -- David RiceDavRice (talk) 09:11, 31 July 2020 (UTC)