from nbc news, the vice presidential debate here are lester holt and savannah guthrie. >> good evening, everyone welcome to the coverage of the 2020 vice presidential debate mike pences and challenger chl facing off in the sole matchup with the election 27 days away. >> and a lot has happened in the eight days since the last debate, very contentious presidential debate. president trump, the first lady and many top aides tested positive for the coronavirus. the president was hospitalized for

several days so the pandemic is certain to be center stage tonight. >> that's evident on the stage itself at the university of utah in salt lake city where barriers have been installed between the candidates as an added safety measure. >> tonight's moderator is "usa today" washington bure owe chief susan page and will not be responsible for fact checking the candidates but our analysts are standing by and go to nbc news.com to sl news.com so let's get it started geoff, what are you hearing from the campaigns? >> reporter: it is impossible to overstate the degree to which the coronavirus pandemic transformed the vice presidential debate starting with president trump recover infrastructure the virus at the white house, no vice president has ever debated while a president is known to be ill and of course, the pandemic also stretches to the stage behind me, 12 feet of

space between the candidates and when it comes to what we might expect the candidates themselves to say tonight i'm told that they don't necessarily expect senator harris to spar with mike pence, the goal is to prosecute the case against president trump as she sees it and to lay out a contrasting vision for america. vice president mike pence's goal to help the trump campaign gain ground both with the key groups of voters and the battleground states where president trump is underperforming but in both you have two seasoned, skilled debaters, two long-time public servants. >> geoff, thank you. let's turn to political director chuck todd mike pence may have a tough hill to climb tonight. >> he does look i think this debate will be more polite which i think everybody watching will appreciate that but i think the vice president has a tougher hill to climb than he already had,

number one, forget last week's debate how about everything that happened in the last 48 hours from the president's diagnosis, the head of the task force and the president walked away from relief talks. i don't know how he can get off the virus. >> let's turn to andrea mitchell for the flip side of that which is mike pence is the head of the task force and knows the issue inside and out, if anyone can defend the case for the administration this is the one who can do it. >> except that he is the head of the task force so widely criticized for the conduct for months and months and will be on the defense, very experienced debater, a former talk show host and will be polite in going after harris as well as joe biden. >> they're both skilled debaters as we said and this debate is about to get under way. he's tush it over to susan page. >> good evening. from the university of utah in salt lake city, welcome to the first and only vice

presidential debate of 2020 sponsored by the nonpartisan commission on presidential debates. i'm susan page of "usa toda today" it is my honor to moderate this debate, an important part of our democracy. in kingsbury hall we have a small and socially distant audience and taken extra cautions in this pandemic among other things, everyone in the audience is required to wear a face mask and the candidates will be seated 12 feet apart. the audience is enthusiastic but they have agreed to express that only twice. at the end of the debate and now when i introduce the candidates please welcome california senator kamala harris and vice president mike pence president mike pence. [ [ applause ]

>> thank you >> thank you for being here we're meeting as president trump and the first lady continue to undergo treatment in washington after testing positive for covid-19 we send our thoughts and prayers to them for their rapid and complete recovery and recover of everyone afflicted by the coronavirus. the two campaigns and the commission on presidential debates have agreed to the ground rules for tonight. i'm here to enforce them on behalf of the millions of americans who are watching one note, no one in either campaign or at the commission or anywhere else has been told in advance what topics i'll raise or what questions i'll ask. this 90-minute debate will be divided into

nine segments each and will pose a question to each of you, sometimes the same question, sometimes a different question on the same topping you will then have two minutes to answer without intervupruption and then discuss the issue. at that point although there will always be more to say we'll move on to the next topping. we want a debate that's lively but americans deserve a discussion that is civil, these are tumultuous times but we'll have a respectful exchange. lets's again with the ongoing pandemic that's cost our country so much. senator harris, the coronavirus is not under control. over the past week johns hopkins reports that 39 states have had more covid cases over the past seven days than the week

before nine states have set new records. even if a vaccine is released soon the next administration will face hard choices. what would a biden administration do in january and february that a trump administration wouldn't do? would you impose new welcomeds for businesses and schools in hot spots, a federal mandate to wear masks you have two minutes to respond. >> thank you, susan. well, the american people have witnessed what is the greatest failure of any presidential administration in the history of our country. and here are the facts. 210,000 dead people in our country in just the last several months over 7 million people who have contracted this disease one in five businesses closed we're looking at front line workers who have been treated like sacrificial workers. we are looking at over

30 million people who in the last several months had to file for unemployment and here's the thing on january 28th, the vice president and the president were informed about the nature of this pandemic they were informed that it's lethal in consequence, that it is airborne, that it will affect young people and that it would be contracted because it is airborne and they knew what was happening and they didn't tell you. can you imagine if you knew on january 28th as opposed to march 13th what they knew what you might have done to prepare? they knew and they covered it up. the president said it was a hoax they minimized the seriousness of it. the president said you're on one side of this ledger if you wear a mask, the other side if you don't. and in spite of all of that today they still

don't have a plan. they still don't have a plan joe biden does and our plan is about what we need to do around a national strategy, for contact tracing, testing, administration of the vaccine and making sure that it will be free for all that is the plan that joe biden has and that i have knowing that we have to get a hold of what is going on and we need to save our country and joe biden is the best lead tore do that and frankly this administration forfeited their right to re-election. >> thank you thank you, senator harris vice president pence, more than 210,000 americans have died of covid-19 since february the u.s. death toll as a percentage of population is higher than that of almost every other wealthy nation on earth, for instance, our death rate is 1/2 times that of canada next door. you had the administration's coronavirus task force. why is the u.s. death toll as a percentage of our population

higher than that of almost every other wealthy country and you have two minutes to respond without interruption. >> thank you i want to thank the commission and the university of utah for hosting this event and senator harris, it's a privilege to be on the stage with you our nation has gone through a very challenging time this year but i want the american people to know that from the very first day president donald trump has put the health of america first. before there were more than five cases in the united states, all people who had returned from china, president donald trump did what no other american president had ever done and that was he suspended all travel from china, the second largest economy in the world now, senator, joe biden opposed that decision he said it was xenophobic and hysterical but i can tell you having led the white

house coronavirus task force that decision alone by donald trump bought us invaluable time to stand up the greatest national mobilization since world war ii and i believe it saved hundreds of thousands of american lives because with that time we were able to reinvent testing, more than 115 million tests have been done to date, able to see to the delivery of billions of supplies and we began really before the month of february was hard to develop a vaccine and develop medicines and therapeutics saving lyes and under president trump's leadership "operation warp speed" will have we believe literally tens of millions of doses of vaccine by the end of the year. the bide b plan reads like what we and the task force have been doing every step of the way and when i look at their plan that talks about advancing testing, creating new ppe, a

vaccine, it looks a little bit like plagiarism which is something that joe biden knows a little bit about and i think the american people know that this is a president that - >> thank you. >> the american people i believe with my heart can be - >> thank you, vice president. >> they have made, it saved countless american lives. >> senator harris, would you like to respond? >> absolutely. whatever the vice president is claiming the administration has done, clearly it hasn't worked. when you're looking at over 210,000 dead bodies in our country, american lives, that have been lost, families that are grieving that loss and you know, the vice president is the head of the task force. and knew on january 28th how serious this was and then thanks to bob woodward we learned that they knew about it and then when that was exposed the vice president said when asked, well, why didn't you all tell anybody, he said,

because the president wanted people to remain calm. but this is important. mr. vice president, i'm speaking i'm speaking. >> i have to weigh in. >> 15 more seconds and then we'll give the vice president a chance. >> i want to ask the american people, how calm were you when you were panicked to get the next roll of toilet paper how calm were you when your kids were sent home from school >> thank you. >> how calm were you when your children couldn't see your parents because you were afraid they could kill them? >> i have thought of every american family that lost a loved one and you'll always be in our hearts and in our prayers but when you see what the american people have done hasn't worked, that's a great disservice to the sacrifices the american people have made i'm -- >> the reality, if i may finish, senator,

the reality is dr. fauci said everything that he told the president in the oval office, the president told the american people now, president trump i will tell you has boundless confidence in the american people and always spoke with confidence to get through this together but when you say it hasn't worked, when dr. fauci and dr. birx and the medical experts came to us in march they said if the president didn't take the unprecedented step of shutting down roughly half of the american economy that we could lose 2.2 million americans. that's the reality >> thank you thank you. >> if we did everything right, susan, we could still lose more than 200,000 americans. >> vice president pence -- >> one life lost is too many, susan, but they deserve credit for the sacrifices they have made our doctors, our nurses - >> thank you, vice president pence. you were in the front row in a rose garden event 11 days ago at

what seems to have been a superspreader event. no social distancing, few mask and a cluster of coronavirus cases among those that were there. how can you expect americans to follow the administration's safety guide lines to protect themselves from covid when you at the white house have not been doing so? >> well, the american people have demonstrated over the last eight months that when given the facts they're willing to put the health of their families and neighbors and people they don't know first president trump and i have great confidence in the american people and their ability to take that information and put it into practice in the height of the epidemic when we were losing a heart breaking number of -- 2,500 americans a day, we surged resources to new jersey and new york and new orleans and detroit. we told the american people what needed to be done and they made

the sacrifices when the outbreak happened this summer, again, americans stepped forward but the reality is the work of the president of the united states goes on. and vacancy on the supreme court of the united states has come upon us and the president introduced judge amy coney barrett -- >> thank you. >> if i may say that event with speculation about it, my wife and i were there and honored to be there. many people at that event were tested for coronavirus and it was an outdoor event which all of our scientists advise regularly. the difference here is president trump and i trust the american people to make choices in the best interest of their health. and joe biden and kamala harris consistently talk about mandates and not just man dates with the coronavirus but a government takeover of health care -- >> thank you >> the green new deal, all government control. we are about freedom and respecteding the freedom of the

american people. >> let's talk about respecting the american people. you respect the american people when you tell them the truth, when you have the courage -- >> which we have always done. >> speaking of those things that you may not want people to hear but they need to hear to protect themselves but this administration stood on information that if you had as a parent, if you had as a worker knowing you didn't have money saved up and standing in a food line because of the ineptitude of an administration that was unwilling to speak the truth to the american people. so let's talk about caring about the american people. the american people have had to sacrifice far too much because of the incompetence of this administration. it is asking too much of the people -- >> susan. >> too much of the people that they would not be equipped with the information they need to help themselves to protect -- >> susan, the president -- >> i'm sorry. >> kamala harris, senator harris - >> that's all right.

i'm kamala. >> for life to get back to normal dr. fauci and others say that most of the people who can be vaccinated need to be but half of americans now say they wouldn't take a vaccine if it was released now if the trump administration approves a vaccine before or after the election, should americans take it and would you take it? >> if the public health professionals, if dr. fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it i'll be first in line to take it. if donald trump says to take it i'm not taking it. >> vice president pence, there have been a lot of repercussions from this pandemic in recent days the president's diagnosis of covid-19 has underscored the importance of the job that you hold and that you are seeking. it's the role of the vice president one of you will make history january 20th you will be the vice president to the oldest president of the united states has

ever had donald trump will be 74 years old on inauguration day joe biden will be 78 years old. that already has raised concerns among some voters concerns that have been sharpened by president trump's hospitalization in recent days. vice president pence, have you had a conversation or reached an agreement with president trump about safeguards or procedures coming to the issue of presidential disability and if not, do you think you should you have two minutes without interruption. >> thank you although i would like to go back. >> i think we need to move on to the issue. >> thank you but i would like to go back. because the reality is that we're going to have a vaccine, senator. in record time, in unheard of time, in less than a year we have five companies in phase three clinical trials and right now producing tens of millions of doses. so the fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a

vaccine, if a vaccine emerges during the trump administration, i think is unconscionable senator, i just ask you, stop playing politics with people's lives. the reality is that we will have a vaccine we believe before the end of this year and it will have the capacity to save countless american lives and your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is just -- it's just unacceptable let me also say, you know, the reality is when you talk about failure in this administration, we actually do know what failure looks like in a pandemic it was 2009, the swine flu arrived in the united states. thankfully it was -- ended up not being as lethal as the coronavirus. but before the end of the year when joe biden was vice president of the united states not 7.5 million people

contracted the swine flu. 60 million americans contracted the swine flu. if the swine flu was as lethal as the coronavirus in 2009 when joe biden was vice president we would have lost 2 million american lives. his own chief of staff ron clain would say last year that it was pure luck that they did, quote, everything possible wrong and we learned from that they let the strategic national stockpile empty. they left an empty and hollow plan. but we still learned from it. >> thank you vice president pence, i'm sorry, your time is up. >> what we have done and, senator - >> thank you senator harris, let me ask you the same question that i asked vice president pence which is have you had a conversation or reached agreement with vice president biden about safeguards or procedures when it comes to the issue of presidential disability and if not, and if you

win the election next month, do you think you should you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> let me tell you first of all the day i got the call from joe biden it was actually a zoom call. asking me to serve with him on this ticket was probably one of the most memorable days of my life i, you know -- i thought about my mother who came to the united states at the age of 19. gave birth to me at the age of 25. at kaiser hospital in oakland, california. and the thought that i'd be sitting here right now, i know would make her proud and she must be looking down on us you know, joe and i were raised in a very similar way. we were raised with values that are about hard work, about value and the dignity of public service and about the importance of fighting for the dignity of all people and i think joe asked me to serve with him because, you know, i have a career that

included being elected the first woman district attorney of san francisco where i created models of innovation for law enforcement. i was elected the first woman of color and black woman to be elected attorney general of the state of california where i ran the second largest department of justice in the united states second only to the united states department of justice and took on everything from transnational criminal organizations to colleges that were taking advantage of veterans and then of course now i serve in the united states senate as only the second black woman ever elected to the united states senate i serve on the senate intelligence committee where i have been in receipt of classified information about threats to our nation and hotspots around the world, traveled the world and met with the soldiers in war zones. and i think joe has asked me to serve with him because he knows that we share a

purpose which is about lifting up the american people and after seeing donald trump unifying the country around the common values and principles. >> thank you neither president trump nor vice president biden released a sort of detailed health information that had become the modern norm until the 2016 election and in recent days president trump's doctors given misleading answers or refused to basic questions about his health and my question to each of you in turn is is this information voters deserve to know vice president pence, would you like to go first? >> well, susan, thank you. let me say on behalf of the president and the first lady how moved we've all been by the outpouring of prayers and concern for the president and i believe it's emblematic of the prayers and concern for every american

impacted by the coronavirus. but the care the president received at walter reed hospital, the white house doctors, was exceptional and the transparency they practiced awe long the way will continue. the american people have a right to know about the health and well-being of their president and we'll continue to do that but i'm just extremely grateful and more than a little moved by the broad and bipartisan support and, senator, i want to thank you and joe biden for you expressions of genuine concern and congratulate you as i did on that phone call on the historic nature of your nomination. >> thank you. >> i never expected to be on this stage four years ago so i know the feeling but the reality is we've got an election before the american people in the midst of this challenging year and the stakes very. >> thank you i want to give senator harris a chance to

respond to the same question i asked which is do voters have a right to know more detailed health information about presidential candidates and especially about presidents, especially when they're facing some kind of challenge? >> absolutely. that's why joe biden has been incredibly transparent and by contrast the president has not. both in terms of health records but also let's look at taxes. we now know because of great investigative journalism that donald trump paid $750 in taxes when i first heard about it i literally said, you mean $750,000? and it was like, no. $750 we now know donald trump owes and in debt for $400 million and just so everyone is clear, you owe money to somebody. it would be really good to know who the president of the united states, the commander in chief,

owes money to because the american people have a right to know what is influencing the president's decisions and is he making those decisions on the best interest of the american people, of you or self interest so i'm glad you asked about transparency because it has to be across the board joe has been incredibly transparent over many, many years. the one thing we all know about joe he puts it all out there he is honest he is forthright but donald trump on the other hand - >> susan >> covering up everything. >> thank you i want to give you a chance to respond, vice president. >> i respect the fact that joe biden spent 47 years in life i respect your public service, as well. >> thank you. >> the american people have a president who's a business marn, job creator. paid tens of millions of dollars in taxes, payroll taxes, property taxes, created tens of

thousands of american jobs and the president said the public reports are not accurate and the president's also released literally stacks of financial disclosures, the american people can review just as the law allows but the distinction here is that joe biden 47 years in public service compared to president donald trump who brought all of that experience four years ago -- >> thank you, vice president. >> turned this economy around cutting taxes -- >> thank you, thank you, vice president. >> and all of that - >> thank you, vice president pence. >> and kamala harris. >> you know, that's a good segue into the third topic which is about the economy. this has been another aspect of life for americans, so affected by this coronavirus. we have a jobs crisis brewing. on friday we learned that the unemployment rate declined to 7.9% in september but the job growth -- that was buffa before the latest round of layoffs in

the airline industry and disney and elsewhere. nearly 11 million jobs that existed the beginning of the year haven't been replaced. those hardest hit include latinos, blacks and women senator harris, the biden/harris campaign proposed new programs to boost the economy and you would pay for that new spending by raising $4 trillion in taxes on wealthy individuals and corporations some economists warn that could curb ventures that fuel growth and create jobs would raising taxes put the recovery at risk and you have two minutes to answer uninterrupted. >> thank you on the issue of the economy, i think there couldn't be a more fundamental difference between donald trump and joe biden. joe biden believes you measure the health and the strength of america's economy based on the health and the strength of the american worker and the american family on the other hand, you

have donald trump who measures the strength of the economy based on how rich people are doing. which is why he passed a tax bill benefitting the top 1% and the biggest corporations of america leading to a $2 trillion deficit that the american people will have to pay for. on day one joe biden will repeal that tax bill he'll get rid of it and what he'll do with the money is invest it in the american people and through a plan that is about investing in infrastructure, something that donald trump said he would do, i remember hearing about an infrastructure week, i don't think it ever happened but joe biden will do that, invest in infrastructure. it is about upgrading the roads and bridges and clean energy and renewable energy joe will invest that money in what we need to do around innovation there was a time when our country believed in science and invested in research and development. so that we were in an innovation leader on the globe.

joe biden will use that money to invest in education so, for example, for folk who is want to go to a two-year community college it will be free if you come from a family making less than $125,000, you go to a public university for free and across the board make sure if you have student loan debt it is cut by $10,000. that's how joe biden thinks about the economy which is about investing in the people of our country as opposed to passing a tax bill with the benefit of letting american corporations go offshore to do their business >> thank you. >> you're welcome. >> vice president pence, your administration is predicting a rapid and robust recovery but the latest economic report shows that's not happening. should americans be braced for an economic comeback to take a year or more you have two minutes to answer uninterrupted. >> president trump and i took office, america had gone through the slowest economic

recovery since the great depression, joe biden was vice president they tried to tax and spend and regulate and fail our way back to a growing economy. donald trump cut taxes across the board despite what senator harris says, the average american family had $2,000 in savings and with the rise in wages that occurred, most predominantly for blue collar hard working americans the average household income for a family of four increased by $4,000 following president trump's tax cuts but america you heard senator harris tell you on day one joe biden's going to raise your taxes it's really remarkable to think, susan, right after a time where we're going through a pandemic that lost 22 million jobs at the height, we have already added back 11.6 million jobs, because we had a president who cut taxes, rolled back regulation, unleashed american energy, fought for free and fair trade and secured $4 trillion from the

congress of the united states to give direct payments to families, save 50 million jobs through the paycheck payment program, spared no expense to help the american people and worker through this, joe biden and kamala harris want to raise taxes, they want to bury our economy under a $2 trillion green new deal which you were one of the original cosponsors of in the united states senate and abolish fossil fuels and ban fracking which would cost hundreds of thousands of american jobs all across the heartland and joe biden wants to go back to the economic surrender to china when we took office half of the international trade deficit with china alone and joe biden wants to repeal the tariffs that donald trump put into effect. joe biden says democracy is on the ballot make no mistake about it, susan. the american economy, the american comeback is on the ballot with four more years of growth and

opportunity, four more years of president trump -- >> thank you, vice president. >> in the history of this country. >> thank you, vice president pence. senator harris. >> we saw enough of it in last week's debate but i think this is a debate based on fact and truth and the fact and truth is joe biden is clear not to raise taxes on anybody - >> fuel the trump tax cuts. >> i'm speaking. >> the important new deal -- the truth. joe biden said it twice in the debate last week to repeal the trump tax cuts, tax cuts that gave the average working family $2,000 in a tax break every single year. senator -- >> that is absolutely not true that is -- >> only going to repeal part of the trump tax cuts >> if you don't mind letting me finish we can then have a conversation okay >> please. >> okay. joe biden will not raise taxes on anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year. he is very clear about

that joe biden will not end fracking he is very clear about that joe biden is the one who during the great recession was responsible for the recovery act that brought america back and now that trump/pence administration wants to take credit when they rode the coattails of joe biden's success for the economy that they had at the beginning of their term. of course now the economy is a complete disaster but joe biden on the one hand did that, on the other hand you have donald trump who has reigned over a recession that is being compared to the great depression on the one hand you have joe biden who was responsible with president barack obama for the affordable care act that brought health care to over 20 million americans and protected people with preexisting conditions and what it also did is it saved those families who otherwise were going bankrupt

because of hospital bills they could not afford on the other hand you have donald trump who's in court right now trying to get rid of - >> thank you, senator harris. >> the affordable care act which means that you will lose protections if you have preexisting conditions and i just -- this is very important, susan. >> yes we need to give vice president -- >> he interruptded me and i would like to just finish. please if you have a preexisting condition, heart disease, diabetes, breast cancer, they're coming for you. if you love someone who has a preexisting condition -- >> thank you. >> they're coming for you if you're under the age of 26 on the parent's coverage they're coming for you. >> senator harris, thank you. >> you're welcome. >> i hope we have a chance to talk about health care because obamacare was a disaster the american people remember it well president trump and i have a plan to improve health care and protect preexisting conditions for every american but look senator harris, you're

entitled to your own opinion but not your on facts. >> good line. >> you said that you would ban fracking joe biden looked a supporter in the eye and pointed and say i guarantee, i guarantee we'll abolish fossil fuels. they have a $2 trillion version of the green new deal that your paper said wasn't that different from the original deal banning fracking abolishing fossil fuel crushing american energy and economic surrender to china is a prescription for economic declean president trump and i will keep america growing. the v-shaped recovery will continue. >> once again, you have provided the perfect segue to a new topic which is climate change vice president pence, i would like to pose the first question to

you. this year we have seen record-setting hurricaneses in the south, another one, hurricane delta, is threatening the gulf, we have seen record setting wildfires in the west do you believe as the scientific community has concluded that man-made climate change has made wildfires bigger, hotter and more deadly and hurricanes wetter, slower and more damaging you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> thank you, susan. i'm proud of our record on the environment and conservation according to the best estimates our air and land are cleaner than any other time recorded just a little while ago the president signed the outdoors act, the largest investment in the public lands and parks in 100 years so president trump has made a commitment to conservation and to the environment. with regard to climate change, the climate is

changing but the issue is what's the cause and what do we do about it president trump made it clear to continue to listen to the science. joe biden and kamala harris would put us back in the paris climate accord, impose the green new deal which would crush american energy and increase the costs of american families in their homes and literally crush american jobs. president trump and i believe that the progress that we have made in a cleaner environment has been happening because we have a strong, free market economy what's remarkable is the united states has reduced co2 more than the countrys that are still in the paris climate accord but we have done it through innovation and we have tudone it through natural gas and fracking and the american people can go look at the record i know joe biden says otherwise now as you

do but the both of you repeatedly committed to abolishing fossil fuel and banning fracking and so, by creating the kind of american innovation we're steering toward a stronger and better environment. with regard to wildfires, president trump and i believe the forest management has to be front and center and governor newsom from your state agreed we have to work on forest management and with regard to hurricanes, the national oceanic administration tells us that actually as difficult as they are -- >> thank you. >> there are no more hurricanes today than there were 100 years ago. >> thank you. >> but many of the climate alarmists use -- >> your time is up. >> to try and -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> the green new deal and president trump and i will always put -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> senator harris, as the vice president mentioned you co-sponsored the green new deal in congress and joe biden said he does not support the

green new deal but on the web side it describes it as a crucial framework. what exactly would be the stance of a biden/harris administration toward the green new deal you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> sure. so first of all, i will repeat and the american people know that joe biden will not ban fracking that is a fact that is a fact i will repeat that joe biden has been very clear that he thinks about growing jobs which is why he will not increase taxes for anyone who makes less than $400,000 a year joe biden's economic plan, moody's, a reptdible wall street firm said will create 7 million more jobs than donald trump's. and part of those jobs that will be created by joe biden are going to be about clean energy and renewable energy because, you see, joe understands

that the west coast of our country is burning, including my home state of california joe sees what is happening on the gulf states which are being battered by storms joe has seen and talked with the farmers in iowa whose entire crops have been destroyed because of floods and so joe believes again in science i'll tell you something. when i first got to the senate i served on the committee responsible for the environment. do you know this administration took the word science off the website and then took the phrase climate change off the website? this -- we have seen a pattern with this administration which is they don't believe in science and joe's plan is about saying we're going to deal with it and create jobs donald trump when asked about the wildfires in california and the question was, you know, the science is telling us this, you know what donald trump said science doesn't know so let's talk about who is prepared to

lead our country over the course of the next four years on what is an existential threat to us as human beings. joe is about saying we'll invest in renewable energy, about the creation of millions of jobs, achieve net zero emissions by 2050, carbon neutral by 2035 joe has a plan this is a lot of talk from the trump administration and really to go back ward instead of forward and we'll re-enter the climate agreement with pride. >> vice president pence, do you believe that climate change poses an existential threat >> as i said, susan, the climate is changing we'll follow the science but once again senator harris is denying the fact that they're going to raise taxes on every american joe biden said twice in the debate last week that on day one he was going to repeal the trump tax cuts

those tax cuts delivered $2,000 in tax relief to the average family of four across america with banning fracking, i recommend that people look at the record you yourself sai end fracking while joe biden denied the green new deal, susan, thank you, the green new deal is on the campaign website and as "usa today" said it is essentially the same plan as you co-sponsored with aoc. look the american people have always cherished our environment. we'll continue to. we have made great progress reducing emissions through american innovation and the development of natural gas through fracking we don't need a massive $2 trillion green new deal for all neumann dates on american businesses and american families.

>> thank you thank you, vice president pence. >> 4 million - >> thank you. >> it makes no sense i will cost jobs president trump -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> america first jobs first and take care of our environment and follow the science. >> thank you. >> on the issue of jobs - >> senator harris? >> let's talk about that the vice president earlier referred to -- what he thinks is an accomplishment the president's trade war with china he lost that trade war. you lost it. what ended up happening is because of a so-called trade war with china america lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs farmers have experienced bankruptcy because of it. we are in a manufacturing recession because of it and when we look at where this administration has been there are estimates that by the end of the term of this administration they will have lost

more jobs than almost any other presidential administration. >> susan >> and the american people know what i'm talking about. you know i think about 20-year-olds we have a 20-year-old. 20 something-year-old coming out of high school and college and wondering is there a job there for me we are looking at people who are trying to figure out how they will pay rent by the end of the month almost half of american renters are worried whether they're able to pay rent by the end of the month. this is where the economy is in america right now and it is because of the ka it is a trod failure of leadership of this administration. >> thank you, senator harris vice president pence, just 15 seconds to respond and then move on. >> well, i'd love to respond. look lost the trade war with china joe biden never fought it joe biden is a cheerleader for

communist china over the last several decades and again, senator harris, you are entitled to your opinion. you are not entitled to your own facts. when joe biden was vice president we lost 200,000 manufacturing jobs and president obama said we needed a magic wand to bring them back. in our first three years after we cut taxes -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> this administration saw 500 thousa,000 - >> thank you, vice president pence. >> that's the growth to see - >> thank you. >> listen. >> thank you, vice president pence. >> is going to kill jobs this time just like it killed jobs. >> i just need to respond very briefly thank you. >> 15 seconds and then we'll move on. >> thank you joe biden is responsible for saving america's auto industry and you voted against it so let's set the record straight. thank you. >> yes. >> i'd like to talk about china. we have as our next topic we have no more

complicated or consequential foreign relationship than the one with china it is a huge market for american agricultural goods, it is a potential partner in dealing with climate change in north korea and in a video tonight president trump again blamed it for the coronavirus saying china will pay vice president pence, how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china, competitors, adder is varies, enemies? you have two minutes. >> thank you, susan. well, before i leave that let me speak to voting records if i can. you know, everybody knows that nafta cost literally thousands of american factories to close. we saw automotive jobs go south of the border president trump fought to renegotiate nafta and the united states/mexico/canada agreement is the law of the land. the american people deserve to know that senator kamala harris one of only ten members of the senate to vote against the

usnmca it was a huge win for the american auto workers and american farmers, especially dairy in the upper midwest. you said it didn't go far enough on climate change that you put your radical environmental agenda ahead of american auto workers and american jobs i think the american people deserve to know that, probably why "newsweek" magazine said kamala harris is most liberal member of the united states senate in 2019 more liberal than bernie sanders and than any other with regard to china, look susan, first and foremost, china is to blame for the coronavirus. president trump is not happy about it he's made that very clear, clear again today. china and the world health organization did not play straight with the american people they did not let our perm in to china to

get information on the coronavirus until the middle of february fortunately president trump in dealing with china from the outset of this administration standing up to china that had been taking advantage of america for decades in the wake of joe biden's cheerleading for china, president trump made that decision before the end of january to suspend all travel from china and again the american people deserve to know joe biden opposed to president trump's decision to suspend all travel from china. he said it was hysterical - >> thank you, vice president pence. >> president trump - >> your time is up. >> and continue to stand strong - >> thank you, vice president pence. >> improve the relationship and level the playing field -- >> vice president pence? >> what they did to america with the coronavirus. >> thank you senator harris, let me ask you a same question that i asked the vice president how would you describe our fundamental relationship with china? are we competitors, adversaries, enemies >> susan, the trump

administration's perspective and approach to china has resulted in the loss of american lives, american jobs and america's standing there is a weird obsession that president trump has had with getting rid of whatever accomplishment was achieved by president obama and vice president biden. for example, they created within the white house an office that basically was responsible for monitoring pandemics they got rid of it >> not true. >> there was a team of disease experts that president obama and vice president biden dispatched to china to monitor what is now predictable and what might happen and they pulled them out. we now are looking at

210,000 americans who have lost their lives. let's look at the job situation. we mentioned before the trade deal, the trade war. they wanted to call it with chun. it resulted in the loss of over 300 manufacturing jobs and a manufacturing recession. and the american consumer paying thousands of dollars more for goods because of that failed war that they called it. let's talk about standing pew, an reputable research firm has done an analysis that shows that leaders of all of our formerly allied countries decided that they hold in greater esteem and respect xi jinping, the head of the chinese communist party, than they do donald trump, the president of the united states, the commander in chief of the united states. this is where we are today. because of a failure of leadership by this

administration >> sthe united states in terms of global leadership over the past four years. and of course times do change what's your definition we have seen strains with china, of course, as the vice president mentioned. we have seen strains with traditional allies in nato and elsewhere. what is your definition of the role of american leadership in 2020? >> so you know, joe is -- i love talking with joe about the issues and i think he said it quite well foreign policy, might sound complicated but it's really relationships. think about it as relationships and so we know this in our personal and professional relationships. you have to keep your word to your friends got to be loyal to your friends people that stood with you, you dwot to stand with them. know who your adversaries are and keep them in check but what we have seen

with donald trump is that he has betrayed our friend let's tack, for example, russia. so russia -- i serve on the intelligence committee of the united states senate america's intelligence community told us russia interfered in the election of the president of the united states in 2016 and playing in 2020. christopher wray, the director of the fbi said the same but donald trump, the commander in chief of the united states of america, the first to take the word of vladimir putin over the word of the american intelligence community. you look at our friends at nato. he's walked away from agreements look at the iran nuclear deal which now has put us in a position where we are less safe because they are building up what mightened up being a

significant nuclear arsenal. we were in that deal, guys, we were in the iran nuclear deal with friends, allies around the country and because of donald trump's unilateral approach to foreign policy and isolationism pulled us out and made us les safe it is about relationships and the thing that's always been part of the strength of our nation in addition to the great military has been that we keep our word but donald trump doesn't understand that because he doesn't understand what it means to be honest >> thank you thank you, senator har risz vice president pence, let me give you a chance to respond. >> well, thank you president trump kept the word when he moved the american embassy to jerusalem, the capital of the state of israel. when joe biden was vice president they promised to do that and never did. we stood strong with the allies and been demanding. nato con triktds more to the common defense than ever before thanks to president trump's leadership

we have strengthened our alliances across the asia pacific and stood strong against those who would do us harm you know, when president trump came into office isis had captured an area of e middle east the size of pennsylvania but president trump unleashed the american military and our armed forces destroyed the isis caliphate and took down their leader without one american casualty baghdadi was responsible for the death of thousands but notably america's hearts are with the family of kayla mueller, the parents of which are here with us tonight today two of the isis killers responsible for kayla mueller's murder were brought to justice in the united states jihadi john was killed on the battlefield with the other beatle. the reality is that

when joe biden was vice president we had ut the military came boo the oval office presented a plan, they said they knew where kayla was baghdadi held her for 18 months, abused her mercilessly before they killed her but when joe biden was vice president they hesitated for a month. and when armed forces finally went in it was clear she was moved two days earlier and her family says with a heart that broke the heart of every american when president donald trump was president they believe kayla would be alive today. >> thank you. >> we destroyed the isis call freight and you talk about reentering the iran nuclear deal the last administration transferred $1.8 billion to the leading -- >> thank you. >> president donald trump got us out of the deal. >> thank you. >> and when -- >> thank you. >> doing harm to

americans, president donald trump - >> thank you, vice president pence. >> america is safer, our allies are safer and the american people know president donald trump will never have to -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> i would like to give harris a chance to respond but not at such great length because there are other topics to address. >> first of all to the mueller family, i know about your daughter's case and i'm so sorry. i'm so sorry what happened to her is awful and it should have never happened and i know joe feels the same way and i know that president obama feels the same way but you mentioned solemaini. there was a counter strike on our troops in iraq and they suffered serious brain

injuries and do you know what donald trump dismissed them as? headaches. and this is about a pattern of donald trump's. where he has referred to our men who are serving in our military as suckers and losers donald trump who went to arlington cemetery and stood above the graves of our fallen heroes and said, what's in it for them? because, of course, you know, he only thinks about what's in it for him let's tack about what he said about john mccain, a great american hero. and donald trump says he doesn't deserve to be called a hero because he was a prisoner of war. take -- this is very important. when you want to talk about who's the current commander in chief and what they care about and what they don't care about, public reporting that

russia has bounties on the heads of american soldiers and you know what a bounty is it's somebody puts a price on your head and they will pay it if you are killed and donald trump had talked at least six times to vladimir putin and never brought up the subject. joe biden would never do that. >> thank you. >> joe biden -- joe biden would hold russia to account for any threat to our nation's security or to our troops who are sacrificing their lives for the sake of our democracy and safety. >> thank you, senator harris we have other important issues, as well i want to make sure we have a chance -- >> i have to respond to that. >> i need more time you have more time than she has had. >> regarding the men and women of the armed forces are absurd.

>> i'm sorry, vice president pence. >> my son-in-law in the united states navy i can assure all of you with sons and daughters in the military president donald trump not only respecteds but reveres all of those who serve in the armed forces and any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous. >> thank you vice president to know -- >> vice president pence -- >> i did not -- you can't deny -- >> i did not create the rules for tonight. >> joe biden -- your campaigns agreed to the rules for tonight's debate i'm here to enforce them which involves moving from one topic to another giving roughly equal time to both of you. >> go right ahead. >> i want to move to the next topic, an important one as the last topic was and that is the supreme court. on monday the senate judiciary committee is scheduled to open

hearings on amy coney barrett. you will be there as a member of the commit tee. and make it likely open to more abortion restrictions everyone to joer turning th vice president pence, you're the former governor of indiana. if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want indiana to do? would you want your home state to ban all abortions? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> thank you for the question, but i'll use a little bit of my time to respond to that very important issue before. the american people deserve to know qasem soleimani, the iranian general, was responsible for the death of hundreds of american service members. when the opportunity came, we saw him headed to baghdad to kill more americans. president trump didn't hesitate and qasem soleimani is gone. you deserve to know that joe

biden and kamala harris actually criticized the decision to take out soleimani -- kasem soleimani. it's really inexplicable but with regard to joe biden, it's explainable. because history records that joe biden actually opposed the raid against osama bin laden. it's absolutely essential that we have a commander in chief who will not hesitate to act to protect american lives and to protect american service members and that's what you have in president donald trump. now, with regard to the supreme court of the united states, let me say president trump and i could not be more enthusiastic about the opportunity to see judge amy coney barrett become justice amy coney barrett. she's a brilliant woman and she will bring a lifetime of experience and a sizable american family to the supreme court of the united states. and our hope is in the hearing next week, unlike justice kavanaugh received with treatment from you and others, that we hope she gets a fair hearing. and we particularly hope that we

don't see the kind of attacks on her christian faith that we saw before. the democrat chairman of the judiciary committee before when judge barrett was being confirmed for the court of appeals expressed concern that the dogma of her faith lived loudly in her. dick durbin of illinois said that it was a concern. senator, i know one of our judicial nominees you actually attacked because they were a member of the catholic knights of columbus just because the knights of columbus holds pro-life views. >> thank you, vice president, your time is up. >> my hope is when the hearing takes place -- >> thank you, vice president pence. >> -- that judge amy coney barrett will be respected. >> thank you, vice president. >> respectfully voted and confirmed to the supreme court of the united states. >> senator harris, you're the senator from and former attorney general of california, so let me ask you a parallel question to the one i posed to the vice president. if roe v. wade is overturned, what would you want california to do?

would you want your home state to enact no restrirctions on access to abortion? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> thank you, susan. first of all, joe biden and i are both people of faith. and it's insulting to suggest that we would knock anyone for their faith. and, in fact, joe, if elected, will be only the second practicing catholic as president of the united states. on the issue of this nomination, joe and i are very clear, as are the majority of the american people, we are 27 days before the decision about who will be the next president of the united states. and, you know, before when this conversation has come up, you know, it's been about election year or election time, we're literally in an election. over 4 million people have vo d voted. people are in the process of voting right now. and so joe has been very clear,

as the american people are, let the american people fill that seat in the white house and then we'll fill that seat on the united states supreme court. and to your point, susan, the issues before us couldn't be more serious. there's the issue of choice, and i will always fight for a woman's right to make a decision about her own body. it should be her decision and not that of donald trump and the vice president, michael pence. but let's also look at what else is before the court. it's the affordable care act. like, literally in the midst of a public health pandemic, when over 210,000 people have died and 7 million people probably have what will be in the future considered a pre-existing condition because you contracted the virus, donald trump is in court right now trying to get rid of the affordable care act and i said it before, and it bears repeating, this means that there will be no more protections, if they win, for people with pre-existing conditions. >> no.

>> this means that over 20 million people will lose your coverage. it means that if you're under the age of 26, you can't stay on your parents' coverage anymore. and here's the thing. the contrast couldn't be more clear. they're trying to get rid of the affordable care act. joe biden is saying let's expand coverage. let's give you a choice of a public option -- >> thank you. >> -- or private coverage. let's bring down peopremiums. >> thank you. >> let's lower medicare eligibility to 60. that's true leadership. >> you know, you mentioned earlier, vice president pence, that the president was committed to maintaining protections for people with pre-existing conditions. but you do have this court case that you are supporting, your administration's supporting, that would strike down the affordable care act. the president says, president trump says that he's going to protect people with pre-existing conditions, but he has not explained how he would do that. and that was one of the toughest nuts to crack when they were passing the affordable care act. so, tell us, specifically, how

would your administration protect americans with pre-existing conditions, to have access to affordable insurance, if the affordable care act is struck down? >> well, thank you, susan, but let me just say, addressing your very first question, i couldn't be more proud to serve as vice president to a president who stands without apology for the sanctity of human life. i'm pro-life. i don't apologize for it. and this is another one of those cases where there's such a dramatic contrast. joe biden and kamala harris support taxpayer funding of abortion all the way up to the moment of birth. late-term abortion. they want to increase funding to planned parenthood of america. now, for our part, i would never presume how judge amy coney barrett would rule on the supreme court of the united states, but we'll continue to stand strong for the right to life. when you speak about the supreme court, though, i think the american people really deserve an answer, senator harris.

are you and joe biden going to pack the court if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed? i mean, there have been 29 vacancies on the supreme court during presidential election years from george washington to barack obama. presidents have nominated in all 29 cases, but your party is actually openly advocating adding seats to the supreme court which has had nine seats for 150 years, if you don't get your way. this is a classic case of if you can't win by the rules, you're going to change the rules. you, you refused to answer the question, joe biden has refused to answer the question. so i think the american people would really like to know if judge amy coney barrett is confirmed to the supreme court of the united states, are you and joe biden, if somehow you win this election, going to pack the supreme court to get your way? >> i'm so glad we went through a little history lesson. let's do that a little more. in 1864 -- >> i'd like you to answer the question. >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. okay?

in 1864, one of the, i think political heroes, certainly the president, i assume you also, mr. vice president, is abraham lincoln. >> uh-huh. >> abraham lincoln was up for re-election. and it was 27 days before the election and a seat became open on the united states supreme court. abraham lincoln's party was in charge not only of the white house but the senate. but honest abe said, not the right thing to do. the american people deserve to make the decision about who will be the next president of the united states and then that person can select who will serve for a lifetime on the highest court of our land. and so joy ae and i are very cl. the american people are voting right now and it should be their decision about who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime. >> thank you. >> and -- >> senator harris.

>> american people are voting right to pack the supreme court if you don't get your way in this nomination. >> let's talk about packing. >> you once again gave a nonanswer. joe biden gave a nonanswer. >> trying to answer you now. >> the american people deserve a straight answer. if you haven't figured it out yet, the straight answer is they are going to pack the supreme court if they somehow win this election. >> but -- >> men and women, i got to tell you, people across this country, if you cherish our supreme court, if you cherish the separation of powers, you need to reject the biden/harris ticket come november the 3rd, re-elect president donald trump and we'll stand by that separation of powers and a nine-seat supreme court. >> yeah, let's talk about packing the court then. let's talk about -- >> please. >> yeah. i'm about to. so, the trump/pence administration has been -- because i sit on the senate judiciary committee, susan, as you mentioned, and i have witnessed the appointments for lifetime appointments to the federal courts. district courts, courts of appeal.

people who are purely ideological, people who have been reviewed by legal professional organizations and found to have been not competent or substandard, and do you know that of the 50 people who president trump appointed to the court of appeals for lifetime appointme appointments, not one is black. this is what they've been doing. you want to talk about packing a court, let's have that discussion. >> all right. thank you. thank you, senator. let's go on and talk about the issue of racial justice. >> i just want the record to reflect she never answered the question. the american people, maybe the next debate joe biden will answer the question. i think the american people know the answer. >> thank you, vice president. in march, breonna taylor, a 26-year-old emergency room technician in louisville, was shot and killed after police officers executing a search warrant on a narcotics investigation broke into her apartment. the police said they identified themselves. taylor's boyfriend said he didn't hear them do that. he used a gun registered to him

to fire a shot which wounded an officer. the officers then fired more than 20 rounds into the apartment. they say they were acting in self-defense. some of them have been indicted in connection with her death. senator harris, in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes. >> i don't believe so. and i've talked with breonna's mother, tamika palmer, and her family, and her family deserves justice. she was a beautiful young woman. she had -- it was her life goal to become a nurse and she wanted to become an emt to first learn what's going on out on the street so she could then become a nurse and save lives. and her life was taken unjustifiably and tragically and violently, and it just -- it brings me to, you know, the 8 minutes and 46 seconds that america witnessed during which an american man was tortured and

killed under the knee of an armed, uniformed, police officer. and people around our country of every race, of every age, of every gender, perfect strangers to each other, marched shoulder to shoulder, arm in arm, fighting for us to finally achieve that ideal of equal justice under law. and i was a part of those peaceful protests. and i believe strongly that, first of all, we are never going to condone violence, but we always must fight for the values that we hold dear including the fight to achieve our ideals. and that's why joe biden and i have said on this subject, look, i'm a former career prosecutor, i know what i'm talking about.

bad cops are bad for good cops. we need reform of our policing in america and our criminal justice system, which is why joe and i will immediately ban choke holds and carotid holds. george floyd would be alive today if we did that. we will require a national registry for police officers who break the law. we will on the issue of criminal justice reform get rid of private prisons and cash bail and we will decriminalize marijuana. >> thank you, senator harris. >> we'll expunge the records of nose who have been convicted of marijuana. this is a time for leadership on a tragic, tragic issue of unarmed black people in america -- >> thank you, senator harris. vice president pence, let me pose the same question to you. in the case of breonna taylor, was justice done? you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> well, our heart breaks for the loss of any incident american life. and the family of breonna taylor

has our sympathies. but i trust our justice system. a grand jury that refused the evidence. it really is remarkable that as a former prosecutor you would assume that an impaneled grand jury looking at all the evidence got it wrong, but you're entitled to your opinion, senator. i think, look, with regard to george floyd, there's no excuse for what happened to george floyd. justice will be served. but there's also no excuse for the rioting and looting that followed. i mean, it really is astonishing. flora westburg is with us here tonight in salt lake city. just a few weeks ago i stood at what used to be her salon. it was burned to the ground by rioters and looters. and flora is still trying to put her life back together. and i must tell you, this -- this presumption that you hear

consistently from joe biden and kamala harris that america is systemically racist and as joe biden said that he believes that law enforcement has an implicit bias against minorities, is a great insult to the men and women who serve in law enforcement. and i want everyone to know who puts on the uniform of law enforcement every day that president trump and i stand with you. and it is remarkable that when senator tim scott tried to pass a police reform bill, brought together a group of republicans and democrats, senator harris, you got up and walked out of the room. and then you filibustered senator tim scott's bill on the senate floor that would have provided new accountability, new resources, but we don't have to choose between supporting law enforcement, proving public bor >> thank you, vice president. t

leadership -- >> thank you, vice president. >> -- we'll always stand with law enforcement and do what we've done since day one. >> vice president, thank you. your time is up. >> since day one, improved the lives of african-americans. record unemployment. record investments in education. fight for school choice for all -- >> thank you, vice president. >> i'd like to respond. >> senator harris. >> i will not sit here and be lectured by the vice president on what it means to enforce the laws of our country. i am the only one on this stage who has personally prosecuted everything from child sexual assault, to homicide. i'm the only one on this stage who has prosecuted the big banks for taking advantage of america's homeowners. i'm the only one on this stage who prosecuted for-profit colleges for taking advantage of our veterans. and the reality of this is that we are talking about an election in 27 days where last week the president of the united states took a debate stage in front of 70 million americans and refused to condemn white supremacists.

>> not true. not true. >> and it wasn't like he didn't have a chance. he didn't do it and then he doubled down. and then he said, when pressed, stand back, stand by. and this is a part of a pattern of donald trump's. he called mexicans rapists and criminals. he instituted as his first act a muslim ban. he on the issue of charlottesville, where people were peacefully protesting the need for racial justice, where a young woman was killed, and on the other side, there were neo nazis carrying tiki torches shouting racial epithets, anti-semitic slurs, and donald trump when asked about it said, there were fine people on both sides. this is who we have as the

president of the united states and, america, you deserve better. joe biden will be a president who brings our country together. >> senator harris -- >> and recognizes the beauty in ou so much more in common than what separates us. >> vice president pence, let me give you a minute to respond. >> thank you, susan. i appreciate that very much. you know, i think this is one of the things that makes people dislike the media so much in this country, susan. that you selectively edit just like senator harris did comments that president trump and i and others on our side of the aisle make. i mean, senator harris conveniently omitted -- after the president made comments about people on either side of the debate over monuments, he condemned the kkk, neo nazis, and white supremacists and has done so repeatedly. you're concerned that he doesn't condemn neo nazis.

president trump has son-in-law jews. the prosecutor. i'm glad you brought up your record, senator. >> thank you. >> i really need to make this point. when you were d.a. in san francisco, when you left office, african-americans were 19 times more likely to be prosecuted for minor drug offenses than white and hispanics. when you were attorney general of california -- >> thank you, vice president. >> -- you increased the di disportidi disportidi -- you didn't lift a finger to pass the first step act on capitol hill. i mean, the reality is your record speaks for itself. >> thank you, vice president. >> president trump and i have fought for criminal justice reform. >> thank you, vice president. >> we fought for educational choice and opportunities for african-americans. all of our -- >> thank you, sir. >> and we'll do it for four more years. >> thank you. there's no more important issue

than the final issue we're going to talk about tonight. >> he attacked my record. i'd like an opportunity to respond. >> let me give you 30 seconds. we're running out of time. >> i appreciate that. first of all, having served as the attorney general of the state of california the work that i did is a model of what our nation needs to do and we will be able to do under a joe biden presidency. our -- our agenda includes what this administration has failed to do. it will be about not only instituting a ban on choke holds and carotid holds -- >> thank you. >> not only -- >> thank you, senator harris. >> i would like to go through -- >> these are points you made earlier in the hour. i want to talk about the election, itself -- >> i want to talk about the connection between what joe and i will do and my record which includes, i was the first statewide officer to institute a requirement that my agents would wear body cameras and keep them on full time. we were the first to initiate a requirement that there would be a training for law enforcement

on implicit bias because, yes, joe biden and i recognized that implicit bias does exist, mr. vice president. contrary to what you may believe. we did the work of instituting reforms that were about investing in re-entry. this is the work that we have done and the work we will do going forward. and, again, i will not be lectured by the vice president on our record of what we have done in terms of law enforcement and keeping our communities safe and a commitment to reforming the criminal justice system of america. >> thank you, senator harris. i'd like to pose the first -- i'd like you to respond first to the question on our final topic. the election, itself. president trump has several times refused to commit himself to a peaceful transfer of power after the election. if your ticket wins and president trump refuses to accept a peaceful transfer of power, what steps would you and vice president biden then take? what would happen next? you have two minutes

>> so i'll tell you, joe and i are particularly proud of the coalition we've built around our campaign. we probably have one of the broadest coalition of folks you've ever seen in a presidential race. of course, we have the support of democrats but also independents and republicans, in fact, seven members of president george w. bush's cabinet are supporting our ticket. we have the support of colin powell. cindy mccain. john kasich. over 500 generals, retired generals and former national security experts and advisers are supporting our campaign. and i believe they are doing that because they know that joe biden has a deep, deep-seeded commitment to fight for our democracy and to fight for the integrity of our democracy and to bring integrity back to the white house. and so we believe in the american people.

we believe in our democracy. and here's what i'd like to say to everybody. vote. please, vote. vote early. come up with a plan to vote. go to iwillvote.com. you can also go to joebiden.com. we have it within our power in these next 27 days to make the decision about what will be the course of our country for the next four years. and it is within our power and if we use our vote and we use our voice, we will win. and we will not let anyone subvert our democracy with what donald trump has been doing as he did on the debate stage last week when, again, in front of 70 million people he openly attempted to suppress the vote. joe biden on the other hand on that same debate stage, clearly donald trump doesn't think he can run on a record because it's a failed record, joe biden on that stage said, hey, just please vote. so i'll repeat what joe said.

please vote. >> thank you, senator. vice president pence, president trump has several times refused to commit himself to a peaceful transfer of power. after the election. if vice president biden is declared the winner and president trump refuses to accept a peaceful transfer of power, what would be your role and responsibility as vice president? what would you personally do? you have two minutes. >> susan, first and foremost, i think we're going to win this election because while joe biden and kamala harris rattle off a long litany of the establishment in washington, d.c., and establishments joe biden's been a part of for 47 years, president donald trump has launched a movement of everyday americans from every walk of life. and i have every confidence that the same americans that delivered that historic victory in 2016 see this president's record where we rebuild our military, we revived our economy through tax cuts and rolling back regulations, fighting for fairer trade, unleashing american energy.

we appointed conservatives to our federal courts at every level. and we stood with the men and women of law enforcement every single day. and i think -- i think that movement of americans has only grown stronger in the lastout a the outcome of the election, i must tell you, senator, your party has spent the last 3 1/2 years trying to overturn the results of the last election. it's amazing. when joe biden was vice president of the united states, the fbi actually spied on president trump and my campaign. i mean, there were documents released this week that the cia actually made a referral to the fbi documenting that those allegations were coming from the hillary clinton campaign. of course, we've all seen the avalanche, what you put the country through for the better part of three years until it was found that there was no obstruction, no collusion, case closed. and then senator harris, you and

your colleagues in the congress tried to impeach the president of the united states over a phone call. and now hillary clinton has actually said to joe biden that under, in her words, under in circumstances should he concede the election. so, let me just say i think we're going to win this election. president trump and i are fighting every day in courthouses to prevent joe biden and kamala harris from changing the rules and creating this universal mail-in voting that will create a massive opportunity for voter fraud. and we have a free and fair election. we know we're going to have confidence in it. i believe in all my heart the president donald trump's going to be re-elected for four more years. >> you know, i've asked -- i've written all the questions that i've asked tonight but for the final question of the debate, i'd like to read a question that someone else wrote. the utah debate commission asked students in the state to write essays about what they would like to ask you. and i want to close tonight's debate with the question posed by brooklyn brown. she's an eighth grader at

springville junior high in springville, utah, and here's what she wrote. "when i watch the news, all i see is arguing between democrats and republicans. when i watch the news, all i see is citizens fighting against citizen. when i watch the news, all i see are two candidates from opposing parties trying to tear each other down. if our leaders can't get along, how are the citizens supposed to get along?""your example examples could mean. -- yes roour response to brookl? vice president pence, you have one minute. >> it's a great question. let me kmepd you fcommend you fn interest in public life. i started following the news when i was very young. in america, we believe in a free

and open exchange of debate. we celebrate that. it's how we created literally the freest and most prosperous nation in the history of the world. i will tell you that don't assume what you're seeing on your local news networks is synonymous with the american people. i look at the relationship between ruth bader ginsburg, the late justice we lost from the supreme court and the antonin s. they were on polar opposites of the supreme court of the united states. one very liberal. one very conservative. what's been learned since her passing is the two of them and their families were the very closest of friends. i mean, here in america we can disagree, we can debate vigorously as senator harris and i have on this stage tonight. but when the debate is over, we come together as americans. and that's what people do in big cities and small towns all across this country.

so i want to encourage you, brooklyn, i want to tell you we're going to work every day to have government as good as our people. the american people each and every day. love to a good debate. we love a good argument. we always come together and are always there for one another. >> thank you. >> in times of need and we especially learned that through the -- >> thank you, vice president. >> -- difficulties of this year. >> senator harris, what would you say to brooklyn? >> first of all, i'd i lo love from our young leaders. when i hear her words, i hear your words, i know our future is bright because it is that perspective on who we are and who we should be. that is a sign of leadership and is something we should all aspire to be. you know, that brings me to joe. joe biden, one of the reasons that joe decided to run, for president, is after charlottesville, which we talked about earlier, it so troubled him and upset him like it did

all of us that there was that kind of hate and division. what propelled joe to run for president was to see that over the course of the last four years, what breklyn described has been happening. joe has a long-standing reputation of working across the aisle. working in a bipartisan way. and that's what he's going to do as president. joe biden has a history of lifting people up and fighting for their dignity. you have to know joe's story to know that joe has known pain. he's known suffering. and he has known love. and so, breklyn, when you think about the future, i do believe the future is bright. and it will be because of your leadership and it will be because we fight for each person's voice, through their vote, and we get engaged in this election because you have the ability through your work and through eventually your vote --

>> thank you, senator. >> -- to determine the future of our country and what its leadership looks like. >> thank you, senator harris. thank you, vice president pence. thank you so much for being with us tonight. we want to thank, also, the university of utah for its hospitality and most of all our thanks to all the americans who watched this debate tonight. again, our best wishes for a quick recovery to president trump, the first lady, and everyone who is battling covid-19. the second presidential debate is next week on october 15th. a town hall-style debate in miami. we hope you'll join us then. good evening. >> and good evening once again in new york. lester holt along with savannah guthrie. end of a 90-minute debate between vice president mike pence and senator kamala harris. fair to say a lot of people holding their breath after last week wondering what the tone

would be in this debate. largely civil, savannah guthrie. it's not without its moments but we certainly got a chance this time to hear from both of them and take a measure and question, perhaps, right now not who won or lost but who did what they had to do under the circumstances. >> tonight we had a debate. as opposed to a debacle. for that i think a lot of americans are breathing a sigh of relief. a lot of different topics covered. and it was mostly civil. there was some back and forth, but substance was discussed. covid was discussed. the supreme court. lot of talk about manufacturing and jobs. a real tell that this battleground, this campaign, is being fought in the industrial midwest. i want to bring in chuck todd. chuck, as you watched tonight, and lester's question is spot-on, you know, who did what they had to do? and did they both do what they had to do? >> well, i can't mean to do a copout here but that's what i was going to land, you could

tell they both sort of had a game plan and i think they both executed their game plan. the question is whether it's going to move the needle at all. i mean, if you want to get into, you know, did i -- i thought kamala harris got off to a little bit of a slow start. i thought she really got her sea legs, got comfortable, got strong. look, mike pence did a lot of evading and deflection. he was dealt a tough hand as we said at the beginning with the virus, where things are. and how he has evaded. there are going to be some people who are frustrated about the constant amount of time that mike pence avoided opening a direct question. a question, one they don't want to deal with, the supreme court question about expanding it. that was one thing that jumped out at me at this debate was, again, it was clear that was

mike pence's plan. deflect some of these attacks. don't get bogged down in the details. i wonder if the evasion started to wear thin with some viewers. >> let me go to andrew a mitche. you were feverishly taking notes. what stood out to you? >> kamala harris warmed up and hit her point on white supremacy, on climate, certainly covid, pre-existing conditions. she managed to get through and speak directly to the camera and was a very effective debater. mike pence was effective in defending president trump and dodging the questions, artful dodge, if you will, because he didn't respond to the failures of the coronavirus task force that he leads. the audio tape by bob woodward. he basically accused her of attacking the american people for their response to the pandemic. if you're a supporter of the trump/pence agenda, you believe he did a very good job and certainly filled the time and got a lot more time by talking

over the time limits and susan page i think did a really good job of trying to hold them to a format. >> chuck, i also thought that landed punches but unlike his boss did it with a velvet glove. different style but certainly took it to the biden/harris team. >> i agree. that's what he does well. it's when he was at his most effective. it was what was, in fact, he was very effective at almost avoiding a question, avoiding a response, and then just going right back on offense trying to land a policy hit. so, look, i agree with that. i think he did best when he was talking about biden's record. where he struggled is when he was having to defend the trump record. and i think that was -- i think with kamala harris, i would argue, i think she struggled at times trying to defend biden's record, defend the ticket. she was obviously much more

comfortable prosecuting a case against the trump administration. >> i'll tell you one of the things that struck me i felt like the coronavirus, a lot of the talking points were left on the table. given especially what we've seen over the last four, five, days involving the president. i don't know if anybody else -- >> you know, lester, i had a feeling that -- i felt like there was a little bit of egg shell walking on that. i think that because of how personal it is, i noticed that, too. and this was part of me that thought, you know what, they don't want to go there right now. >> but i also thought, lester, that there have been so many things said by the president in the video tonight, in the video when he first came back, not wearing a mask, i was surprise the that the whole issue of masks didn't come up. because the vice president talked about mandates, but it's the advice of their own public health officials and their refusal to wear masks and all the things that they've been justly criticized for, him taking off the mask when he first came back to the white house.

i was surprised that did not come up and she didn't score on those points. >> let me bring in kasie hunt who, of course, covers capitol hill for us. i heard nancy pelosi say she texted encouragement to kamala harris before the debate and said health care, health care, health care. that is clearly the terrain the democrats want to run on and kamala harris certainly brought it up at every available opportunity. >> she did, savannah, and that was one of her most direct lines news coverage for pre-existing conditions. so many people would suddenly have the pre-existing condition of having had covid in the past. but you know, one thing that stuck out to me, savannah, as iri was listening to the conversation, kamala harris with a smile pushed back on mike pence's repeated talking over time and interrupting her.

she was sort of very deft and careful to when she said, hey, you're interrupting me, it's my turn to speak, she was careful about it in the style in which she did that seemed practiced but also familiar to nothose ofs who covered her on capitol hill. one of the ways she's effective in this way. >> feels like she got more time, though. we'll find out. seems like by him going over, taking the attacks, he might have gotten more air time. >> it's entirely possible. we've already seen pressure on susan page as the moderator who struggled to push back against pence and kept repeatedly saying thank you, mr. vice president, thank you. and i think you saw harris as the debate went on start to interject herself more and say, no, i am going to take the time that i have for myself, thank you very much. i also want to touch on savannah, too, the supreme court. this is another thing that pence

did have a tactical . couldn't answer that question. she sort of deflected instead. and that reflects some tensions in the democratic party. that there is pressure from the left to do this. and it's something that makes centrists in the party uncomfortable. so, that was a moment where she struggled to answer a question even though, of course, throughout the night we saw mike pence repeatedly decline to answer the questions that the moderator put to him and instead answer in different ways. >> joining us now is radio talk show host hugh hewitt, nbc news political analyst and president of the richard nixon foundation. also a trump supporter. and david plouffe was a senior adviser to barack obama as candidate and as president and helped him prepare for debates. he's a biden supporter and nbc news analyst. thanks to both of you for joining us. hugh, let me first start with you and pick up on the vice president really going after senator harris on this issue of

packing the court. was that, in your view, his strongest moment? and what will the effect be? >> one of three. fracking, fracking, fracking, for the pennsylvanians out there watching and wondering, the supreme court being packed which is exactly what president trump brought up to vice president biden last week. the republicans would like to underscore the radical agenda. in the end when they talked about amy coney barrett and the president got in an uninterrupted minute and a half, building of a fence around judge barrett that she not be attacked about her religious faith, about people of praise, that the dogma lives deeply within her. vice president brought up senator harris' attack on a different judicial nominee, the knights of columbus. i believe that was one thing they really wanted to get done tonight, which was to establish that judge barrett must not be subjected to a religious test

next week. i think mike pence accomplished that and accomplished a lot for the campaign in doing so. >> and let's assume for a moment that the president is able to debate at the next debate. did vice president build ground? did he set the same for the president to, perhaps, have a better debate performance? >> yeah, like a volleyball match at the olympics. put the ball in the air. the spike's got to come on the packing of the court. i think if the president models on the way the vice president conducted himself, i thought it was an amicable debate, within the norms of every debate i've ever seen, the last one was not. susan page had trouble with both of them. i know she got rolled by senator harris at the end. this was a normal debate and sets up the third debate very well. >> let me turn to david plouffe, of course, president obama's senior adviser. just ask you, david, first of all, i want to get your take on senator harris, but why has this issue of court packing tied biden and now harris in such knots?

i mean, wouldn't you have expected them to have a getter response knowing that this question is coming? >> well, first of all, i think the most important issue in this debate, savannah, was the coronavirus. i mean, kamala harris did a good job of prosecuting that case. number one. number two, i think joe biden's leading in this race. prepared for presidential debates, here's really the only question that matters. are voters going to do something different after the debate than they were doing before the debate? and my strong suspicion is not. i also think she looked like someone who could handle the office. i think joe biden is leading that race and a question people have. i think on the court i'm sure joe biden is going to get asked next week, i'm sure he'll have an answer for that. i think she did a very good job of raising the stakes on health care, on pre-existing conditions, on a woman's right to choose, which every poll i've seen shows almost two-thirds of the country being very concerned about those issues. >> what was senator harris' mission tonight, was it to hold fast and do no harm and try to hold on to what appears to be a

lead in the polls? >> well, it's a great question, lester. i think the question is you don't want to play safe. my view in politics has always been when you're ahead, you need to press your advantage. i think she did that on the coronavirus, i thought she did that on taxes, i thought she did that on the economy. i think but, yes, when you're ahead and joe biden has a significant stable, you might even argue, growing lead, is you don't want to step back that cause. and that's the question. time is running out. so, maybe serve was held today. that's not good much fenough fo trump/pence ticket. millions of americans have voted and election day is looming. >> really quick, david, do you think she held back, could have landed further punches that kind of reined herself in a bit? >> no, i don't think so. i thought she was very strong on the coronavirus, had a very good answer about the stakes on the supreme court. i would like to see this question about democracy and trump suggesting he's not going to abide by the election results. i think that could be a great moment for joe biden. i don't think they made him pay

the full price for that -- >> thank you, david. >> hallie jackson in washington, hallie, we heard from the president earlier before the debate. he likes to tweet during the debate. what have you heard from the white house tonight? >> you know, he tweeted some, not as much as what we saw during the vice presidential debate back in 2016 when he was essentially live tweeting it but we know the president was at least from his twitter account engaged, as he's in the residence because of the coronavirus. hanging heavily because of the backdrop over the debate, didn't seem to be as front and center as a focus as much as some people thought it would have been. what's interesting, senator harris working to, as we talked about, prosecute the case not against donald trump but mike pence. she was speaking past mike pence

to president trump, to the american people. you saw her implement the strategy joe biden did last time around, turned to the camera, doing it there, talked right to americans, tried to make her case on things like health care but largely going after the president's leadership on a variety of issues. going after, for example, the president's transparency. focusing on donald trump far more than mike pence. for his part, what was interesting was the vice president ticking some of the boxes that president trump did not last week. when it came to issues that are critically important in some of these battleground states like nafta, for example, things in the industrial midwest, like jobs, the economy, the fight against china, as well. these are key talking points for the vice president. and that is what he stuck on today, savannah. >> all right. we're going to take a quick break here. we'll be back in a moment with more analysis. stay with us. i'm looking for my client. i'm his accountant. i'm so sorry. [ sighs ] hey! hey man! you're here. you don't trust me here is vegas, do you? well... i thought we had a breakthrough with the volkswagen. we did. yes. we broke through. that's the volkswagen!

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all right. one of the things we saw in tonight's debate is the republican republicans. the trump campaign certainly sees it as a virtue. how quickly they have moved toward a vaccine. the democrats, the biden campaign, fearful. that came out in this conversation about what would happen when a vaccine is fielded. here's a conversation. >> if the public health professionals, if dr. fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, i'll be the first in line to take it. absolutely. but if donald trump tells us

that i should take it, i'm not taking it. >> so, the fact that you continue to undermine public confidence in a vaccine, if the vaccine emerges during the trump administration, i think is unconscionable. and, senator, i just ask you, stop playing politics with people's lives. the reality is that we will have a vaccine, we believe, before the end of this year. and it will have the capacity to save countless american lives and your continuous undermining of confidence in a vaccine is just -- it's just unacceptable. >> so let's turn to nbc news medical correspondent dr. john torres. john, we've heard this argument before. explain -- we know that we're moving quicker to a vaccine than has ever been done before. that's a given. but are there certain steps that are going to happen regardless that have to happen before it hits market? >> and, lester, you're absolutely right. right now the main thing is to

make sure it's safe and to do that, the fda just put out new guidance saying they want to wait two months until people get their last vaccine in the trials to make sure it's safe. but what vice president pence didn't mention there is the fact that they, themselves, are doing a little bit of undermining because the president today tweeted out exactly saying this new fda rules make it more difficult for them to speed up vaccines for approval before election day, just another political hit job." so what we're seeing here is on both sides getting accused of doing politics behind the vaccine, instead of doing health behind the vaccine. and like senator harris said, you know, she'd take it if doctors said to take it but wouldn't take it if president trump said to take it. >> all right, john, thanks. savannah? >> also standing by were us nbc news senior business correspondent stephanie ruhle. as mentioned before there was a lot of talk that seemed dedicated to convincing voters in the industrial midwest, manufacturing, fracking, are huge issues. a lot of claims flying back and forth about the economy.

what did you take away? >> well, let's start, mike pence said president trump is responsible for the greatest economic turnaround. it wasn't a turnaround. gdp was basically between 2% and 2.5% for both president obama and president trump. we had expansion under president trump because the corporate tax cut. now, mike pence said that joe biden is going to take away that tax cut and raise everyone's taxes. that's not true. he's looking to roll back some of the corporate tax cut. anyone making less than $400,000 a year will stay intact. one last point, mike pence said people now have $2,000, a family- famil familfamily of 4 because of president trump's tax cut. they would lose that if it was taken away. joe biden is not looking to take that away. that's the expanded child tax credit that went from $1,000 to $2,000. people would still have that under a biden presidency. >> all right, stephanie, thank you so much. we're going to be back with final thoughts and a look ahead

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for some perspective on tonight's debate let's bring in nbc news presidential historian michael bescloss. we talk about the second on the ticket doesn't often move the needle. did we see anything tonight that makes you think this will be the exception? >> it's almost the dog that did not bark because if history tells us anything, lester, the

central question tonight does kamala harris, the candidate, we haven't known, facing the biggest audience of her life? did she look and sound like a plausible president and vice president? the answer at least from my point of view, she sure did. she passed that test. as for mike pence, people know him. he kept interrupting his moderator, a woman, and his opponent, a woman. some may feel that that showed lack of respect. >> yeah, that will be something we see play out in the next day or two. >> right, again, let's end as we started. i think a big sigh of relief that it was just in the realm of normal for presidential or vice presidential debate. that concludes our coverage. full calendar ahead. of course, next thursday, another presidential debate between donald trump and joe biden in miami. . .

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