from nbc news, the presidential debate. here are lester holt and savannah guthrie. >> good evening, everyone. welcome to the final coverage of the 2020 debate. republican president donald trump and his former challenger joe biden are about to take the stage with the election now just 12 days away. keep in mind, people have been voting for weeks in some places. the stakes are higher than ever. tonight is the last best chance for the candidates to make their case to a national audience

before election day on november 3rd. >> the candidates will face off in about three minutes. belmont university in nashville, tennessee. you may remember the first debate. it was filled with interruptions. quite unorthodox. the commission on presidential debates decided to change the rules a bit. >> the microphone of the candidate who isn't speaking will be muted for the first two minutes of each separate debate topic. >> let's get you to the white house correspondent, kristen welker, who is moderating the debate. >> the debate commission said she will not be responsible for fact checking the candidates but our analysts is standing by to do just that. for real-time fact checking, you can go to nbc news.com. >> we just saw a few moments ago, the guests have been seated. the candidates are waiting to take the stage. let's get to you. >> so much anticipation here at belmont university.

you can hear a pin drop as they walk out on the stage. watch for president trump to go after joe biden's son hunter biden. and unverified emails about his business dealings. the story that many experts say has all the hallmarks of an interference campaign. joe biden is expected to keep his focus on the pandemic and the president's response to that, giving his message directly to american voters. there is the potential of course for interruption, although the mic muting that you discussed at the top of the broadcast. we should note that kristen welker is not responsible for the mute button. >> the moderator of "meet the press" will be watching along with us. lay it out. what is at stake? >> this is donald trump's last chance to change the trajectory of the race. let's be realistic here. that's what we're trying to

figure out. if everybody around donald trump has told him what to do. the question is will he change his behavior from the first debate? it did real damage to his campaign. he has to have a good debate performance tonight. i don't know if he can. if he's obsessed with hunter biden, i don't know if he can have a good debate performance. >> and we noticed that they took down plexiglass noting that it wasn't necessary. we saw both the candidates arrive just a short time ago. they've been in their holding rooms and now about to come out. it was originally going to be a third debate but it is the second and final debate. >> we're about ten seconds away. kristenwe welker at the ready. we will turn it over to our colleague, nbc news kristen welker. >> good evening from belmont university in nashville, tennessee.

i'm kristen welker of nbc news and i welcome you to the final 2020 presidential debate between donald j. trump and former vice president joe biden. tonight's debate is sponsored by the commission on presidential debates. it is conducted under health and safety protocols designed by the commission's health security adviser. the audience in the hall has promised to remain silent. no boos or cheers. except right now as we welcome joe biden and president donald j. trump. [applause] >> and i do want to say a very good evening to both of you.

this debate will cover six major topics. each candidate will have two minutes uninterrupted to answer my question. the debate commission will turn on their microphone only when it is their turn on answer and the commission will turn it off when the two minutes have expired. after that, both microphones will remain on. on behalf of both of you, i'll ask to you speak one at a time. the goal is for to you hear each other and for the american people to hear every word of what you both have to say. so with that, if you're ready, let's start. we will begin with the fight against the coronavirus. president trump, the first question is for you. the country is heading into at a dangerous new phase. more than 40,000 americans are in the hospital tonight with covid including record numbers here in tennessee. since the two of you last shared a stage, 16,000 americans have died from covid. so please be specific. how would you lead the country during this next stage of the coronavirus crisis?

two minutes uninterrupted. >> so as you know, 2.2 million people modeled out were expected to die. we closed up the greatest economy in the world in order to fight this horrible disease that came from china. it is a worldwide pandemic. it is all over the world. you see the spikes in europe and many other places right now. if you notice, the mortality rate is down 85%. the excess mortality rate is way down and much lower than almost any other country. and we're fighting it and fighting it hard. there is a spike. there was a spike in florida. it is now gone. there was a very big spike in texas. it's now gone. there was a big fight in arizona. it's now gone. and there are some spikes and surges in other places. they will soon be gone. we have a vaccine that's coming. it is ready. it is going to be announced within weeks and it will be delivered. we have operation warp speed which is the military is going to distribute the vaccine.

i can tell you from personal experience, i was in the hospital. i had it. and i got better and i will tell you that i had something that they gave me a they're compup t. some people say it was a cure. i was in a short period of time and i got better or i wouldn't be here tonight. now they say i'm immune. whether it is four months or a lifetime. nobody can say that but i'm immune. more and more people are getting we are. we have' problem that's a worldwide problem. this is a worldwide problem. but i've been congratulated by many countries on what we've been able to do. if you look at what we've done in terms of goggles and masks and gowns and everything else. and in particular, ventilators. we're now making ventilators all over the world. thousands and thousands a month distributing them all over the world. it will go away. and as i say, we're rounding the turn.

we're rounding the corner. it is going away. >> okay. former vice president biden, how would you lead this country out of crisis. would you have to minutes uninterrupted. >> 220,000 americans dead. you hear nothing else i say tonight. hear this. anyone who is responsible for not taking control. in fact, not saying, i take no responsibility initially. anyone who is responsible for that many deaths should not remain as president of the united states of manager. we're in a situation where there are a thousand death as day now. a thousand death as day. and there are over 70,000 new cases per day. compared to what is going on in europe as the new england medical journal said, they're starting from a very low rate. we're starting from a very high rate. the expectation is we'll have another 200,000 americans dead between now and the end of the

year. if we just wore these masks, the president's own advisers have told him, we can save 100,000 lives. and we're in a circumstance where the president thus far still has no plan. no comprehensive plan. i would make sure we have everyone encouraged to wear a mask all the time. i would make sure we move in the direction of rapid testing. i would make sure that we set up national standards how to open up schools and open up businesses so they can be safe and give them the wherewithal, the financial resources to do that. we're in a situation now where the new england medical journal, one of the most serious journals in the whole world, said for the first time ever, the way this president has responded to this crisis has been absolutely tragic. and so folks, i will take care of this. i will end this. i will make sure we have a plan. >> president trump, i would like

to follow up with you and your comments. you talked about taking a therapeutic. i assume you're referencing regeneron. you said a vaccine will be coming within weeks? is that a guarantee? >> no. it's not a guarantee but it will be by the end of the year. i think it has a good chance. there are two companies within a matter of weeks and it will be distributed very quickly. >> can you tell us which companies? >> johnson & johnson is doing very well. moderna is doing very well, pfizer is doing very well and we have inner loop russ others. and then others that are working very closely. in particular europe. >> because this is new information, you have said a vaccine is coming soon. your own administration said it could take well into 2021 before enough americans could get vaccinated and they said the country will be wearing masks into 2022. is your time line realistic? >> i think my time line will be more accurate. i don't know that they're counting on the military the way i do. we have our generals lined up. one in particular that is the

head of logistics. this is a very easy distribution for him. he's ready to go. as soon as we have the vaccine, and we expect 100 million vials. he's ready to go. >> vice president biden, 40 million americans say they would agree to take vaccine if it was approved by the government. what steps would you give to give americans confidence if it were approved? >> make sure it is totally transparent. have the world see it, know it, look at it. go through all the processes. and this is the same fellow who told you it would end by easter. this is the same fellow who said, don't worry. we'll end it by the summer. we're about to go into a dark winter and he has no clear plan and there is no prospect there will be a vaccine available for the majority of american people before the middle of next year. >> president trump, your reaction? >> i don't know that we'll have a dark winter at all. we're opening up our country. we've learned and studied and

understand the disease which we didn't at the beginning. when i closed and banned china from coming in, heavily infected, in january, months later he was saying it was too soon. now he's saying, i should have moved quicker. but he didn't move quicker. he was months behind me. many months behind me. and frankly, he ran the h1n1 swine flu and it was a total disaster. far less lethal but it was a total disaster. had that had this kind of numbers, 700,000 people would be dead right now. but it is a far less lethal disease. look, his own person who ran that for him. as you know, was his chief of staff, said it was catastrophic. it was horrible. we didn't know what we were doing. now he comes up and he tells us how to do this. also, everything that he said about the way every single move

that he said we should make, that's what we've done. we've done all of it. but he was way behind us. >> vice president biden, your response? >> my response, he is phobic but not because he shut down access from china and he did it late, after 40 countries had already done that. he made sure we had 44 people in china trying to get to wuhan to determine what exactly the source was. what did the president say in january? he said no. he's being transparent. the president of china is being transparent. we owe him a debt of gratitude. we have to thank him. then what happened? we started talking about using the defense act to go out and get whatever we need to protect people. and again, i go back to this. nothing he did virtually, he did virtly nothing. he gets out of hospital and he talks about, don't worry. it will all be over soon. come on! there's not another serious scientist in the world who

thinks it will be over soon. >> i say we're learning to live with it. we have no choice. we can't lock ourselves up in a basement like joe does. he has the ability to lock himself up. he's obviously made a lot of money someplace. but he has this thing about living in a basement. people can't do that. i as the president can't do that. i would love to put myself in a basement or a beautiful room in the white house and go away for a year and a half until it disappears. i can't do that. every meeting i had, every meeting i had, and i meet a lot of families including gold star families and military families, and i had to meet them. i had to. it would be horrible to have canceled everything. i said this is dangerous. and you catch it. i caught it. i learned a lot. great doctors, great hospitals. and now i recovered. 99.9 of young people recover. 99% of people recover.

we have to recover. we can't close up our nation. we have to open our schools and we can't close our nation or you won't have a nation. >> the cdc has said young people can get sick with covid-19 and can pass it. but president biden, i want to talk broadly about strategy. >> may i respond to that? >> 30 seconds and then i have a question. >> number one, he says that we're learning to live with it. people are learning to die with it. you folks at home will have an empty chair at the kitchen chair this morning. that man and wife going to bed, reaching over to try to touch out of habit, where their wife or husband was, is gone. learning to live with it? come. on we're dying with it. he's never said. he said it's dangerous. when is the last time, is it really dangerous still? tell the people it's dangerous now? what are you going to do about the danger? you say i take no responsibility. >> i take full responsibility. it's not my fault that it came here. it's china's fault.

and it's not joe's fault that it came here either. it's china's fault. they kept it from going to the rest of china for the most part. but they didn't keep it from going out to the world including europe and ourselves. >> vice president biden. >> the fact is that when we knew it was coming, when it hit, what happened? what did the president say? he said don't worry. it will go away. be gone by easter. don't worry. warm weather. he said he was kidding about the bleach but a lot of people thought he was serious. a whole range of things the president has said. even today he thinks we are in control. we're about to lose 200,000 more people. >> president trump? >> look, perhaps just to finish this. i was kidding on that but just to finish this. when i closed, he said i shouldn't have closed. and that went on for months. what nancy pelosi said the same thing. she was dancing on the streets of chinatown in san francisco.

when i closed, em, this is a terrible thing. xenophobic. i think he called me racist even because i was closing to china. now he says i should have closed either. >> i didn't say either of those things. >> you certainly did. >> i talked about xenophobia in a different context. fwaunlt closing the border to china. >> i want to talk about both your different strategies. >> he thought i shouldn't have closed the border. that's obvious. >> do you want to respond to that quickly? >> no. >> let's talk about your different strategies dealing with this. mr. president, you said you would support your scientists. what do you think about the cost of shutdown, the impact on the economy, the higher rates of hunger, depression, domestic and substance abuse outweighs the risk of exposure to the virus. >> what i would say is i'll shut down the virus, not the country. it is his ineptitude that caused the country to have to shut down in large part. why businesses have gone under.

why schools have closed. why so many people have lost their living and why they're concerned. those other concerns are real. that's why instead of being in a sand trap on the golf course, he should have been with nancy pelosi and the democrats about what to do about the acts they were passing for billions of dollars to make sure people had the capacity. >> you haven't ruled out more shutdowns. >> no. i'm not shutting down but look, you need standards. the standard is if you have a reproduction rate in a community above a certain level, everybody says slow up. more social distancing. do not open bars. do not open gymnasiums. do not open until you get this under control. under more control. when you do open, give the people the capacity to be able to open and have the capacity to do it safely. for example, schools. schools need a lot of money to open. they need to deal with ventilation systems, smaller

classrooms, pods. >> let's talk about schools. >> if i might respond? >> please. and then i have a follow-up. >> look, all he does is talk about shutdowns. forget about him. his democratic governors, cuomo in new york, you look at california, pennsylvania, north carolina, democrats. democrats all. they're shut down so tight and they're dying. they're dying. and he supports all these people. all he talks about is shutdowns. no. we won't shut down. we have to open the schools. i have a young son. he also tested positive. by the time i spoke to the doctor the second time, he was fine. it just went away. young people. i guess it is their immune system. >> let me follow up with you, president trump. you've demanded schools open in person and insist they can do it safely but just yesterday, boston became the latest school system to move entirely online with the coronavirus fight.

what about the worry to send children to school for the teachers and families. >> i want to open the schools. the transmittal rate to the teachers is very small. i want to open the schools. we have to open our country. we won't have a country. you can't do this. we can't keep this country closed. this is a massive country with a massive economy. people are losing their jobs. they're commit canniting suicid drugs and alcohol at levels never seen before. there's tremendous abuse. we have to open our country. i've said it often. the cure cannot be worse than the problem itself. and that's what's happening. and he wants to close down. he'll close down the country if one person in our massive bureaucracy says we should close it down. >> vice president bs? >> not true. we ought to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. we ought to be able to safely open. we need resources to open. you need to be able to, for

example, if you're going to open a business, have social distancing. if you have a restaurant, you need to have plexiglass dividers so people can't infect one another. you need to be in a position where you can take testing rapidly and know whether a person is in fact infected. you need to be able to trace. to provide all the resources needed to do this. and that's not inconsistent with saying that what we're going to make sure that we open safely. by the way, all you teachers out there. be that many of you will die so don't worry about it. come on! >> president trump, let me follow up. >> i will say this. if you go look at what happened in new york, it's a ghost town. it's a ghost town. when you talk about plexiglass, these are restaurants that are dying, businesses with no money. putting up plexiglass is unbelievably expensive and it is not the answer. you're going to sit there in a cubicle wrapped around with plastic? these are business that's are dying, joe.

you can't do that to people. you just can't. take a look at new york and what has happened to my wonderful city for so many years. i loved it. it was vibrant. it's dying. everyone is leaving new york. >> take a look at what new york has done in terms of turning the curve down. and i don't look at it as blue states and red states. they're all the united states. look at the states with such a spoik in the coronavirus. they're the red states. the states in the midwest. the states in the upper midwest. that's where the spike is during significantly. but they're all americans. they're all americans. what we have to do is say, wear these masks, number one, make sure we get the help that the businesses need that the money has already been passed to do that. it's been out there since the beginning of the summer and nothing has happened. >> kristen, new york has lost more than 40,000 people. 11,000 people in nursing homes.

when we say spike, take a look at what's happening in pennsylvania where they've had to close. take a look at what's happening with your friend in michigan where her husband is the only one allowed to do anything. it's been like a prison. it was just ruled unconstitutional. take a look at north carolina. they're having spikes. they've been closed and they're getting killed financially. we can't let that happen, joe. you can't let that happen. we have to open up. and we understand the disease. we have to protect our seniors. we have to protect our elderly. we have to protect especially our seniors with heart problems and diabetes problems and we will protect them. we have the best testing in the world by far. that's why we have so many cases. >> let me move on to you. this week you called dr. anthony fauci the nation's best known n infectious disease expert, you called them idiots. >> i get along we well with

anthony but he did say, don't wear masks. he did say, as you know, this is not going to be a problem. i think he's a democrat but that's okay. he said this is not going to be a problem. we are not going to have a problem at all. when joe says that i am, anthony fauci said and others, many others, i'm not knocking him. nobody knew what this thing was. nobody knew where it was coming from. we've learned a lot. but anthony said, don't wear masks. now he wants to wear masks. he said if you long back, exact words. this is no problem. this will go away soon. so he's allowed to make mistakes. he happens to be a good person. >> vice president biden, your response quickly. >> my response is think about what the president knew in january and didn't tell the american people. he was told this was a serious virus that spread in the air and it was much worse, much worse than the flu. he went on record and said to

one of your colleagues, recorded, that in fact he knew how dangerous it was but he didn't want to tell us because he didn't wanted us to panic. mers don't panic. he panicked. in the meantime, we found out in the "new york times" the other day that his folks went to wall street and said this is a really dangerous thing and in the meeting not from his administration but from others, sell short. we have to get moving. >> i'm going to give you 30 seconds to respond and then we'll move on. >> somebody went to wall street. you're the one who takes all the money from wall street. i don't take it. you've raised a lot of money. tremendous amounts of money. and every time you races money, deals are made. i could raise so much money. as president and someone who knows so many people. i could call the presidents of every company in america. i would blow away every record. it puts me in a bad position. and then you bring up wall street? you shouldn't be bringing up

wall street. you're the one who takes the money. not me. i could blow away your records like you wouldn't believe. we don't need money. we have plenty of money. we beat hillary clinton with a tiny fraction. >> all right. gentlemen? >> $43. >> we're going to move on to our next part which is national security. i want to start with some breaking news from overnight. just last night top intelligence officials confirmed that both russia and iran are working the influence this election. both countries have obtained u.s. voter registration information. and iran sent intimidating messages to florida voters. this question goes to you. mr. vice president, what would you do to put an end to this threat. you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> i made it clear and i ask everyone else to take the pledge. i made it clear any country that interferes in american elections will pay a price. they will pay a price. and it has been overwhelmingly

clear this election. i won't even get into the last one. this election, that russia has been involved. china has been involved to some degree and now we learned that iran is involved. they're interfering in american sovereignty. they're interfering in american sovereignty. to the best of my knowledge, i don't think the president said anything to putin about it. i don't know yes hasn't said a word to putin about it and i don't know what he has recently said if anything to the iranians. my guess is he would be more outspoken with regard to the iranians. but the point is this. we are in a situation where we have foreign countries trying to interfere in the outcome of the election. his own national security adviser told him, what is happening with his buddy, well, i will. his buddy rudolph giuliani is being used as a russian pawn.

he is being given information that is not true. what happens? nothing happens. and then you find out that everything is going on here about russia is wanting to make sure that i do not get elected the next president of the united states because they know i know them. and they know me. i don't understand why this press is unwilling to take on putin when he is actually paying bount toys kill american soldiers in afghanistan. when he is engaging in activity destabilizing all of nato. i don't know why he doesn't do it but it is worth asking the question. why isn't that being done? any country interferes with us will in fact pay a price. they're affecting our sovereignty. >> president trump, same question to you. let me ask the question. you'll have two minutes to respond. for two elections in a row there has been interference by foreign adversaries. >> well, let me respond to the first part. joe got $3.5 million from

russia. and it came through putin because he was very friendly with the former mayor of moscow. thor many of moscow's wife. and you got $3.5 million. your family got $3.5 million. someday you'll have to explain, why did you? i never got any money from russia. i don't get money from russia. about your thing last night. i knew all about that. and through john ratcliffe who is fantastic, he said the one thing that is common to both of them. they both want you to lose. because there has been nobody tougher to russia between the sanctions, nobody tougher than me on russia. between the sanctions, between all of what i've done with nato. i have the nato, going to $420 billion a year. that's to guard against russia. i sold, while he was selling pillows and sheets, i sold tank busters to ukraine.

there has been nobody tougher on russia than donald trump. and i'll tell you, they were so bad. they took over the submarine port. you remember that very well of during your term. during you and barack obama. they took over a big part. you were getting a lot of money from russia. they were paying you a lot of money. and they probably still are. now with what came out today, it is even worse. all the emails, the emails, the horrible emails of the kind of money that you were raking in. you and your family. and joe, you were vice president when some of this was happening and it should have never happened. and i think you owe an explanation to the american people. why is it, somebody just had a news conference a little while ago. what he said was damning. regardless of me, i think you have to clear it up and explain

it to the american people. maybe you can do it now. >> vice president biden? i have not taken a penny from any foreign source ever in my life. we learned this president paid 50 times the tax in china as a secret bank wkt china, does business in china. and in fact, is talking about me taking money? i've not taken a single penny from any country ever. ever. number two. this is a president, i have released all of my tax returns. 22 years. go look at them. 22 years of my tax returns. you have not release ad single solitary year of your tax return. what are you hiding? why are you unwilling? the foreign countries are paying you a lot. russia is paying you a lot. china is paying you a lot. and your hotels and all your businesses all around the country, all around the world. china is building a new road to a new golf course you have overseas. so what is going on here?

why not release your tax returns and stop talking about corruption? >> first of all, i called my accountants under audit. i'm going to release them as soon as i can. i want to do it. and it will show how successful, how great this company is. but much more importantly, people are saying $750. i asked them a week ago. i said, what did i pay? they said sir, you pre paid tens of millions. i pre paid my tax. over the last number of years. tens of millions of dollars. i pre paid. at some point they think it is an estimate, they think i may have to pay tax so i pre paid it. excuse me. and wasn't written. they keep talking about $750 which i think is a filing fee. let me tell you. i pre paid millions and millions of dollars in taxes. number one. number two, i don't make money from china. you do. i don't make money from ukraine. you do.

i don't make money from russia. you made $3.5 million, joe. and your son gave you, they even have a statement that we have to give 10% to the big man. you're the big man, i think. maybe you're not. you're the big man, i think. we have to give 10% to the big man. what is that all about? >> i want to ask you some questions. i'm going to let you both respond very quickly. up you spoke to your accountant about potentially releasing your taxes. did he say when you can release them? >> i get treated worse than the tea party got treated. you have a lot of people. deep down in the irs, they treat me horribly. we made a deal. it was all settled until i decided to run for president. i get treated very badly by the irs. very unfairly. we had a deal all done. i have paid millions and millions of dollars.

it is worse than paying. i pre paid my taxes. >> i want to ask you both questions about your potential foreign entanglement to give you both a chance to talk about it more broadly. respond quickly. >> he's been saying this for four years. show us. just show us. stop playing around. you've been saying for four years you're going to release your taxes. nobody knows. what they do know is you're not paying your taxes, or you're paying taxes that are so low. last time he said what he paid, he said, i only paid that little because i'm smart. i know how to gain the system. come on. come organization folks. >> i was put through a phony witch hunt for three years. it started before i even got elected.

they spied on my campaign. no president should have to go through what i went through. mueller and democrats spent $48 million. they went through everything i had, including my tax returns and they found absolutely no collusion and nothing wrong. $48 million. i guarantee if i spend $1 million on you, i could find plenty wrong. the kind of things you've done, the kind of money your family has taken. your brother made money in iraq. your other brother made a fortune and it is all through you. youley very well. you have houses all over the place. youley very well. >> okay. let me ask you questions about this. there have been questions, vice president biden, about the work your son did. in retrospect, was anything about those relationships inappropriate or unethical? >> nothing was unethical. here's the deal.

with regard to ukraine, we had this whole question about whether or not, because he was on the board, i later learned, of burisma. every solid person was going through impeachment, testifying under oath who worked for him said i did my job impeccably. i carried out u.s. policy. not one single solitary thing was out of line. not a single thing. number one. number two, the guy who got in trouble in ukraine was there guy for trying to bribe the ukrainian government to say something negative about me which they would not do and did not do, because it never, ever, ever happened. my son has not made money in terms of this thing about china. i have not had, the only guy who made money from china is this guy. the only one. nobody else has made money from china. >> president trump -- let me ask my question to you. >> could i just one thing?

his son didn't have a job for a long time. was sadly no longer in the military service. i won't get into that. and he didn't have a job. as soon as he became vice president, burisma, not the best reputation in the world. i hear they paid him $183,000 a month. listen to this. $183. and they gave him a $3 million up front payment -- >> all right. i'm going to let the vice president respond and then i need on get to a question to you. >> no basis for that. no one said anything did he was wrong in ukraine. >> all right. president trump, this is for you. since you took office, you never divested from your company. a report this week reference that's your coil has a bank account in china. so how can voters know that you don't have any foreign conflict of interest? >> i have many bank accounts and they're all listed and they're all over the place. i was a businessman doing business. the bank account which you're

referring to, everybody knows about it, was listed. it was in 2013. that's when it was. it was close in the 2015, i believe. and then i decided, because he was thinking about doing a deal in china like millions of other people. i was thinking about it. and i decided, i'm not going to do it. i didn't like it. i had an account open and i closed it. excuse me. and then unlike him, where he's vice president and he does business, i then decided to run for president after that. that was before. so i closed it before i even ran for president, let alone became president. big difference. he is the vice president of the united states and his son, his brother, and his other brother are getting rich. they're like a vacuum cleaner. they're sucking up -- >> okay, we need to move on. i do want to ask you, vice president biden, about china.

let's talk about china more broadly. president trump has said they should pay for not being fully transparent in regard to the coronavirus. if you were president, would you make china pay? and please be specific. what would that look like? >> i would make china play by the international ruse. not like he has done. he's caused the deficit to go up, not down, with china. up, not down. we're making sure in order to do business in china you have to give all your intellectual property, you have to have a partner in china, 51%. we would not do that at all. number one. number two, we're in a situation where china would have to play by the ruse internationally as well. when i met with xi and when i was still vice president, he said we're sending upperor identification zones in the south china sea. he said we're going to fly through them. we just flew b-51 bombers through there. they have to play by the rules. and what does he do?

he embraces guys like the thugs like in north korea and the chinese president and putin and others, and he pokes his finger at all of our friends, our allies. we make up, we're 25%. 25% of the world's economy. we need to be having the rest of our friends with us saying to china, these are the rules. you play by them or you'll pay the price for not playing by them. that's the way i will run it. that's what we did upholding steel tariff when's we were president and vice president. >> i have to respond to that. >> okay. very quickly and then we'll respond to north korea. >> 3.5 -- >> not true. >> after being in air force two. number one. number two. there is a very strong email talking about your family wanting to make $10 million aier for introductions. >> president trump, on china policy though, what specifically are you going to do to make china pay? you said you're going to make

them pay. >> china is paying. they're paying billions and billions of dollars. i just gave $28 billion to our farmers. >> taxpayers money. >> it's called china. china paid $28 billion. and do you know what they did to pay it? they devalley valued their currency. and our great farmers were targeted. you never charged them anything. also, i charged them 25% on d p dumped steel. we were not going to have a steel industry and now we have a steel industry. >> vice president biden? >> my response is, there is a reason why he's bringing up all this mularkey. there's a reason for it. he doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. it's not about his family and my family. this is about your family. your family is hurting badly. if you're making less than, if you're malclass family, you're

getting hurt badly right now. you're sitting at the kitchen table deciding, we can't get new tires. they're bald but we have to wait another more or so. can we pay the mortgage? who will tell her she can't go back to community college. those are the decisions you're making like i grew up in scranton. we should be talking about your families. that's the last thing he wants to talk about. >> i want to talk about north korea. ten seconds, mr. president. >> a political statement. let's get off this china thing. and then the family, around the table. a typical politician. >> all right. let's talk about north korea. >> that's why i got elected. let's get off the subject of china. let's talk about sitting around the table of come on, joe. >> president trump, you've met with north korean leader kim jong-un. you've talked about beautiful letters with him. you've touted there hasn't been a war or a long range missile

test and yet they recently rolled out the biggest ever ballistic missile. just 30 seconds here because we need to get on to the next thing. >> when i met with barack obama, we sat in the white house right at the beginning. had a great conversation. it was supposed to be 15 minutes and it was well over an hour. he said the biggest problem we have is north korea. he indicated, we would be in a war with north korea. guess what, it would be a nuclear war and he plenty of nuclear capability. in the meantime, i have a good relationship with him. a different kind of guy but he probably thinks the same thing about me. we have a different kind of relationship. we have a very good relationship and there is no war. about two months ago, he broke into a certain area. they said oh, there will be trouble. no, they're not. he won't do that. and i was right. instead of being in a war where millions of people, seoul is 25 miles away.

32 million people would be dead right now. we don't have a war and i have a good relationship. >> vice president biden, north korea conducted four nuclear tests under the obama administration. why do you think you would be able to rein in this threat? >> because i made it clear with china. i made it cheer as a spokesperson to china. why are you moving your missile defense so close? why are you continuing to do military maneuvers with south korea? i said because north korea is a problem. and we're going to continue to do it so we can control them. we'll make sure we can control them and make sure they cannot hurt us. if you want to do something about it, step up and help. what has he done? he's legitimized north korea. he's talked about his good buddy who is a thug, a thug. and he talks about how we're better off.

and they have much more capable missiles. able to reach territory much easier. >> you said you wouldn't meet with kim jong-un unless it is under conditions. >> on the condition that he would be drawing down his nuclear capacity. the korean peninsula should be a nuclear-free zone. >> kristen, they tried to meet with him. they tried to meet with him. he wouldn't do it. he didn't like obama. he didn't like it. they tried. he wouldn't do it. >> okay. >> you know what? north korea, we're not in a war. we have a good relationship. you know, people don't understand. having a good relationship with leaders of other countries -- >> we have a lot of questions to get to. >> we had a good relationship with hitler before he in fact invaded europe. the rest of europe. come on. the reason he would not meet with president obama is because president obama said we're going to talk about denuclearization. we're not going to legitimize

you. we're going to push stronger and stronger sanctions on you. that's why he wouldn't meet with us. >> and it didn't happen. >> let's move on -- president trump -- we do need to move on. >> they left me a mess. north korea was a mess. >> we need to move on to other questions tonight. >> it was a very dangerous period in my first three months before we worked things out. >> okay. >> they left us a mess and obama would be, i think, the first to say it was the single biggest problem he thought that our country -- >> okay. let's move on to american families and the economy. one of the issues that is most important to them is health care, as you both know. today there was a key vote and a knew supreme court justice. amy coney barrett. and health care is at the center of her confirmation fight. over 20 million americans get their health insurance through the affordable care act. it is headed to the supreme court and your administration, mr. president, is advocating for

the court to overturn it. if the supreme court does overturn that law. those 20 million americans could lose their health insurance almost overnight. so what would you do if they have their health insurance taken away? >> first, i've already done something that nobody thought was possible. through the legislature i terminated the mandate. that's the worst part. where you have to pay a fortune for the privilege of not having to pay for bad health insurance. i terminated it. it's gone. now it's in court because obamacare is no good. then i made a decision of the run it as well as you can to my people, great people. i could have gone the other route and made everybody very happy. no matter how well you run it, it's no good. what we would like to do is terminate it. we have the individual mandate. if we don't win, we will have to

run it and it will be obamacare. without the individual mandate, it's different. pre-existing conditions will always stay. what i would like to do is a much better health care. much better. that will always protect people with pre-existing. so i would like to come up with a brand new beautiful herring. the democrats will do it because there will be tremendous pressure and we might even have the house by that time and i think we'll win the house. you will see. but come up with a better plan. we have 180 million people out there that have great private health care. far more than we're talking about with obamacare. joe biden will terminate all those policies. these are people love their health care. people that have been successful.

they have 180 million plants. 180 million. people. families. what he wants to do will be social itsed immediate shin. we have done an incredible job on health care. >> okay. vice president biden, you talk about building on obamacare. if it is ruled unconstitutional by the supreme court. would you have to minutes uninterrupted. >> i'll pass obamacare a public option to become biden care. the public option is an public option says if you in fact do not have the wherewithal to be, if you qualify for medicaid, and you do not have the wherewithal, in your state to get medicaid, you automatically enroll providing competition for insurance companies. secondly, we're going to make sure we reduce the premiums and drug prices by making sure.

by allowing the medicare to negotiate drug prices with insurance companies. thirdly, the idea that i want to eliminate private insurance. the reason i had such a foyt with 20 candidates for the nomination was, i support private insurance. that's why, not one single person with private insurance would lose their insurance under my plan. nor did they under obamacare. they did not lose their insurance unless they chose to go to something else. lastly, we're going to be in a situation to protect, there's no way he can protect pre-existing conditions. none. zero. you can't do it in the ether. he's been talking about this a long time. he's never come one a plan. i guess we'll get the pre-existing conditions plan the same time we get the infrastructure plan that we waited 17, 18, 19 and 20. i still have more minutes. i know you're getting anxious.

the fact is he's already cost the american people because of the terrible handling of the covid-19 and economic spillover. 10 million people have lost their private insurance. he wants to take away 22 million more people under obamacare and more with pre-existing conditions and all the people from covid-19 will have pre-existing conditions. what will they do? >> i have a follow-up for you, vice president biden, it relates to something president trump said. he's accusing you of wanting socialized medicine. what do you say that it takes country one step closer to a health care system run entirely by the government? >> i say it's ridiculous. it's like saying the idea that the fact that there is a public option, that people can choose? that makes it a socialist plan? the difference between president, i think health care is not a privilege. it is a right. everyone should have the right to have affordable health care. and i am very plan of my plan.

it has gotten endorsed by all the major labor unions as well as a whole range of other people who in fact are concerned in the medical field. this is something that will save people's lives and this is going to give some people an opportunity to have health care for their children. how many at home are worried rolling around in bed tonight wondering what in god's name you're going to do if you get sick? because you lost your health insurance your company had on you. we have to provide health insurance at an affordable rate. that's what i do. >> he was there for 47 years. he didn't do it. he was now there as vice president for eight years. and it's not like it was 25 years ago. it was three and three quarters. just a little while ago. less than four years ago. he didn't do anything. he didn't do it. he wants socialized medicine. it's not that he wants it. his vice president, she is more liberal than bernie sanders and wants it even more. bernie sanders wants it.

the democrats want it. you're going to have socialized medicine just like with fracking. then he goes to pennsylvania where he got nomination where he got very lucky to get it. he goes to pennsylvania and he says we'll have fracking. by the way, so far i respect very much the way you're handling this. but somebody should ask the question. he goes for a year -- >> we do have a number of topics. we're going to get to it. >> the same thing with socialized -- >> your response? >> my response is people deserve to have affordable health care, period, period, period. the biden proposal will provide for that affordable health care, lower premiums. what we'll do. it will cost some money. over $750 billion over ten years to do it. and they'll have lower premiums. you can buy into better plans, cheaper plans, lower your premiums, deal with unexpected

billing, and have your drug prices drop significantly. he keep talking about it. he hasn't done a thing for anybody on health care. >> i want to talk about -- >> when he says public option, he's talking about socialized medicine. when he talks about a public option, ease talking about destroying your medicare and your social security. and this whole country will come down. bernie sanders tried it. a big mistake. his governor was a very liberal governor. >> it doesn't work of the. >> he's a very confused guy. he thinks he's running against somebody else. he's running against joe biden. i beat those other people because i disagreed with them. joe biden he's running against. the idea that we're in a situation that will destroy medicare. this is guy, they said if in fact, social security, if in fact he continues to withhold his plan to withhold the tax on

social security, social security will be bankrupt by 2023. with no way to make up for it. this is guy who tried to cut medicare. the idea that donald trump is lecturing me on social security and medicare? come on. >> he tried to hurt social security years ago. go back and look at the records. he tried to hurt social security years ago. >> let's move on. i'm going to move on. mr. president, i have to move on to the next question. >> he said the stock market will boom if i'm elected. if he's elected, the stock market will crash. >> let's move on to the next question. very quickly. >> the idea that the stock market is booming is his only measure of what's happening. where i come from in scranton, people don't live off the stock market. just in the last three years, during this crisis. the billionaires in this country

made according to wall street, $700 billion more. $700 billion more dollars. because that's his only measure. what happens to the ordinary people out there? what happens to them? >> let's talk about capitol hill. we're going to move on. we're going to move on. >> through the roof. he doesn't come from scranton. he lived there for a short period of time before he -- >> we're going to move on. >> the people of pennsylvania -- >> let me move on to my next question. as of tonight, more than 12 million people are out of work. as of tonight, 8 million more americans have fallen into poverty and more families are going hungry every day. those hit hardest are women and people of color. they see washington fighting over a relief bill. mr. president, why haven't you been able to get them the help you need? 30 seconds. >> because nancy pelosi doesn't want to approve it. >> you're the president. >> but i still have to get it. that's one of the reasons we'll take over the house because of her.

nancy pelosi doesn't want to approve anything. she would love to have victories on a date called november 3rd. she doesn't want to approve it. we are ready, willing and able to do something. don't forget we've approved three plans and it has gone through, including the democrats, in all fairness. this one she doesn't want near the election. she thinks it helps her politically. i think it hurts her politically. >> in the united states senate, he said he will not be able to pass it. he does not have republican votes why. doesn't he talk to his republican friends? >> if we made a deal -- >> let me ask vice president biden a question. ture leader of the democratic party. why have you not pushed for a deal for the american people? >> i have. they passed this act all the way back in the beginning of the summer. this is not new. it's been out there. this heroes act has been sitting there. and look what's happening. when i was in charge of the recovery act with $800 billion,

i have able to get $145 billion for local communities that had to balance their budget, the states had to balance their budget, they have to fire firefighters, teachers, first responders, law enforcement officers so they could keep the cities and counties running. he will not support it. they have not done a thing for them. and mitch mcconnell says let them go bankrupt. come on! what's the matter! >> it was a bail out of badly run high crime democrat, all run by democrats, cities and states. it was a way of getting a lot of money. billions and billions of dollars. it was also a way of getting a lot of money from our people's pockets to people that come into our country illegally. we were going to take care of everything for them. what that does, and i would love to do that. i would love to help them. but what that does, everybody all over the world will pour into the country.

this was a way of taking care of them. of spending on things that had nothing to do with covid-19, to answer your question but it was a bailout for badly run cities and states. >> if get elected, i'm going to be an american president. i don't see red states and blue states. what i see american united states. folks, every single state out there finds themselves in trouble. they're going to start laying off whether they're red or blue, cops, firefighters, first responders, teachers, because they have to balance their budget. the founders were smart. they allowed the federal government for the united states of america. >> i want to talk about the minimum wage. mr. vice president, we are talking a lot about struggling small businesses and business owners these days. do you think this is the right time to ask them to raise the minimum wage? you support a $15 -- >> i do. one of the things we'll have to do is bail them out, too.

we should be bailing them out now. those small businesses. you've got one in six going under. they won't be able to make it back. they passed a package that allows us to have ppp. money that is supposed to do everything to organize how to deal with businesses opening safely. schools, how they can make classrooms smaller, hire more teachers, how they can put ventilation systems in. they need the help. businesses as well as the schools need the help. but this, these guys will not help them. it's not giving them any of the money. >> we are going to move on to immigration. >> small businesses by raising the minimum wage? that's not helping. i think it should be a state option. alabama is different than new york. new york is different from vermont. every state is different. it should be a state option. we have to help -- it's very important. we have to help our small businesses. how are you helping your small business when's you're forcing

wages, what will happen, what has been proven to happen, when do you that, these small businesses fire many of their employees. >> not true, by the way. >> you said would you consider raise go it to $15 an hour. you said recently would you consider raising the federal minimum wage. >> i would consider it to an extent. but what i really like, in a second administration. but not to a level that will put all these businesses out of business. it should be a state option. different places, i know different places. they're all different. some places, $15 is not so bad. in other places, other states, $15 -- >> a quick response, vice president biden. >> two jobs, one job, people are making $6, $7, $8 an hour. these first responders, we all clap for them as they come down the street because they've allowed to us make it. what's happening? they deserve a minimum wage of $15. anything below that puts you

below the poverty level. and no question when you trays minimum wage. >> we're going to talk about immigration. we're going to talk about families within this context. mr. president, your administration separated children from their parents at the border. at least 4,000 kids. you've since reversed your zero tolerance policy but the united states can't locate the parents of more than 500 children. how will these families ever be reunited? >> children are brought here by coyotes and lots of bad people, cartels, and they're brought here and they used to use them to get into our country. we now have as strong as border as we've ever had. we're over 400 miles of brand new wall. you see the numbers. we let people in but they have to let them in. >> but how will you reunite the kids? >> they built cages. they had a picture in a certain newspaper. it was a picture of these horrible cages.

and they said look at these kangs. president trump built them. and then it was determined they were built in 2014. that was him. >> do you have a plan to reunite the kids? >> we're trying very hard. but a lot of these kids come out without the parents. they come through cartels and coyotes and gangs. >> vice president biden -- >> these 500 plus kids came with parents. they separated them at the border to make it a disincentive to come to begin with. we're really tough, we're really strong. and guess what, coyotes didn't bring them over. their parents were with they will. they got separated from their parents. and it makes us the laughing stock and violates every notion of who we are as a nation. >> let me ask you -- >> they did it. we changed the policy. they did it. we changed the policy. >> we did not separate -- >> who built the cages, joe?

>> let's talk about what we're talking about. what happened the? parents, their kids were ripped from their arms and separated. now they can't find over 500 sets of those parents and those kids are alone. nowhere to go. nowhere to go. it's criminal. it's criminal. >> i will say this. we brought reporters. everything. they are so well taken care of. they're in facilities that were so clean. >> but some of them haven't been reunited with their families. >> one question, who built the cages. who built the cages? >> let me ask you about your immigration policy, mr. vice president. they did fail to deliver reform. it also presided over record deportations as well as family detentions before changing course. why should voters trust with you an immigration overhaul now? because it was a mistake. it took too long to get it right.

i'll be president, not vice president of the united states. the fact is i've made it very clear. within 100 days, i'll send to the united states congress a pathway to citizenship for over 11 million undocumented people. and all those so-called dreamers, so daca kids, they'll be immediately certified to stay in this country and put on a path to citizenship. the idea that they are being sent bhoim this guy, they're going to a country they've never seen before. i can imagine, you're 5 years old. your parents are taking you across the rio grand river and it's illegal. and you say, oh, no, mom. leave me here. they've been here. many are model citizens. over 20,000 are first responders out there taking care of people during this crisis. we owe them. we owe them. >> he had eight years to do what he said he was going to do.

and i've changed -- without having a specific, we got rid of catch and release. we got rid of a lot of horrible things they put in and they lived with. he had eight years he was vice president. he did nothing. except build cages to keep children in. >> vice president biden, your response? >> the catch and release. do you know what he's talking about there? if you had a family that came across. they were arrested. they in fact were given a date to show up for their hearing. they were released. and guess what, they showed up for a hearing. has the first president in the history of the united states of america for anybody seeking asylum has to do it in another country. that's never happened before in america. that's never happen before in america. you come to the united states and you make your case. you seek asylum based on the following premise. why i deserve it under american law. they're sitting in squalor on

the other side of the river. >> it shows he has no understanding of immigration of the laws. catch and release is a disaster. a murderer would come in, a rapist would come in, a very bad personal would come in. we would take their name. we have to release them into our country. and then you say they come back. less than 1% of the people come back. we have to send i.c.e. out and border patrol out to find them. we would say come back in two years, three years. we're going to give you a court case. when you say they come back, they don't come back, joe. they never come back. only the really, i hate to say this, but those with the lowest i.q. they might come back. >> okay, president trump. let's give vice president biden a chance to respond. your response. >> what he's saying is simply not true. >> check it out.

we don't have to worry about it. they terminated it. >> you have 525 kids not knowing where in god's name where they're going to be and lost their parents. >> let's talk about our next subject which is race in america. i want to talk about the way black and brown americans experience race in this country. part of that experience is something called the talk. it happens regardless of class and income. parents who feel they have no choice but to prepare their children for the chance that they could be targeted, including by the police, for no reason other than the color of their skin. mr. vice president, in the next two minutes, i want you to speak to that. >> my daughter is a social worker. she's written a lot about this. she has a graduate degree from the university have pennsylvania in social work. you know, one of the reasons why i ended up working on the east

side of wilmington, delaware, 90% african-american, was to learn more about what was going on. i never had to tell my daughter if she's pulled over, make sure she, to a of extra stop, put both hands on top of the wheel and don't reach for the glove box because someone may shoot you. but a black parent, no matter how wealthy or poor they are, has to teach their child. don't have a hoodie on when you go across the street. making sure if you get pulled over, yes, sir, no, sir, hands on top of the wheel. because you are in fact a victim whether you're a person making $300,000 a 84 or someone on food stamps. the fact of the matter is, there is institution aal racism in america. and we've always said. we hold these truths to be self-evident. all men and women are created

equal. we've never lived up to it. we are constantly moving the needle further and further. this is the first president that came along to say that's enough of. . we have to provide for economic opportunities bergs access to schooling, health care, better opportunity to borrow money to start businesses. all the things we can do. and i've laid out a clear plan as to how to do those things just to give people a shot. it is about accumulating the ability to have wealth as well as to be free from violence. >> president trump, same question to you. would i like to you speak directly to these families. do you understand why these parents fear for their children? >> yes, i do. and he's been in government 47 years. he never did a thing. except in 1994 when he did such harm to the black community and they were called and he called them super predators.

and he said that. he said that. super predators. and they could never live that down. 1994. your crime bill. the super predators. nobody has done more for the black community than donald trump. if you look with the exception of abraham lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of abraham lincoln, nobody has double what i've done. criminal justice reform. obama and joe didn't do it. i don't even think they tried. they had no chance at doing it. they might have wanted to do it. if you had to see the arms i had to twist to get that done. liberal people cried in my office, they cried in the ole office. two weeks later they said we have to defeat him. prison reform, opportunity with tim scott, a great senator from south carolina. he came in with this incredible

idea for opportunity zones. one of the most successful programs. people don't talk about it. tremendous investment being made. the black and hispanic communities, and colleges and university. after three years, they came into the office and they said, what are you doing? after three years. why do you keep coming back? because we have no funding. i said you don't have to come back he have year. because president obama would never give them long term funding. ten years long term funding and i gave them more money than they asked for. i said i think you need more. the only bad part is i may never see you again. i got very friendly with them and they like me and i like them. colleges and universities. >> we're going to talk about both of those. >> i never, ever said what he accused me of saying. the fact of the matter is in

2000 though, after the crime bill had been in the law for a while, this is a guy who that, the problem with crime bill, there's not enough people in jail. and go on my website. get the quote, the date when he said it. not enough people. he talked about marauding gangs. the young gangs and the people who would maraude our cities. this is the guy with the central park five. none of them were guilty of the crimes they were suggested. and talk about that, we commuted over 1,000 people's sentences. over 1,000. the very law he's talking about is the law that in fact initiated by barack obama. and secondly, we're in a situation here where the federal prison system was reduced by

38,000 people in our administration. one thing we should be doing. there should be no minimum mandatories in the law. that's why i'm offering $20 billion to states to change their state laws to eliminate minimum mandatories and set up drug courts. no one should be going to jail because they have a drug problem. they should be going to rehabilitation. not to jail. we should fundamentally change the system. >> why didn't he do it four years ago? why didn't you do it four years ago? you keep talking about all these things you're going to do. but you were there just a short time ago. and you guys did nothing. you know, joe, i ran because of you. i randal because of barack obama. because did you a poor job. if i thought did you a good job, i would have never run. i ran because of you.

>> vice president biden? >> what's happening here, you know who i am. you know who he is. you know his caring. you know my character. you know my reputation for honor and telling the truth. i am anxious to have this race. i am anxious to see this take place. i am, the character of the country is on the ballot. our character is on the ballot. look at us closely. >> we're going to have follow-up. >> russia, ukraine, china, other countries, iraq. if this is true, then he's a corrupt politician. so don't give me this stuff about how you're this innocent baby. joe, they're calling you a corrupt politician. >> i want to stay on the issue of race. president trump, we're talking about race right now and i do want to stay on the issue of race. >> i have to respond to that. >> very quickly. >> there are 50 former national intelligence folks who said what he's accusing me of is a russian plant.

they have said that this has all the -- five former heads of the cia, both parties, say what he's saying is a bunch of garbage. nobody believes ept and he his friend rudy giuliani. >> do you mean the lamb top is a russia, russia, russia hoax? >> i want to stay on the issue of -- >> here we go again with russia. >> we're going to continue on the issue of race. you've described the black lives matter movement as a symbol of hate. you've shared a video of a man channelling white power to millions of your supporters. you've said that black professional athletes exercising their first amendment rights should be fired. what do you say to americans who say that kind of language from a president is contributing to a climate of hate and racial strife? >> well, you have to understand, the first time i ever heard of black lives matter, they were

channelling pigs in a blanket, talking about police. pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. i said that's a horrible thing. they were marching down street. that was my first glimpse of black lives matter. i thought it was a terrible thing. as far as my relationships with all people. i think i have great relationships with all people. inthe least racist person in this room. >> what do you say to americans who are concerned? >> i don't know what to say. i have criminal justice reform done, prison reform. opportunity zones. i took care of black colleges and universities. i don't know what to say. they can say anything. it makes me sad. because i am the least racist person. i don't see the aurdience becaue it is so dark but i am the least racist person in the room.

>> abraham lincoln here is one of the most racist presidents we've in modern history. he pours fire. he said we'll he get rid of those mexican rape. is. he banned muslims because they're muslims. he has made everything worse across the board. he says about the poor boys, last time we were on stage i told them to stand down and stand ready. this guy has a dog whistle as big as a fog horn. >> president trump? >> he made a reference to abraham lincoln. where did that come in? >> you said -- >> i said not since abraham lincoln has anybody done what i've done for the black community. >> and i'm saying -- >> i didn't say i'm abraham lincoln. not since abraham lincoln has anyone done. you've done nothing other than

the crime bill which put tens of thousands of black men mostly in jail. >> all right. >> if you look at what's happening with the voting right now. they remember he because you treated them very, very badly. take a look the a what's happening. >> vice president biden, let me give you the chance to respond. the crime bill contributed tens of thousands of black men who had small amounts of drugs in their possessions. their fooms this day are some of them suffering the consequences. speak to those families. why should they vote for you? >> in the 80s, we passed one hundred%, a bill on drugs and how to deal with drugs. it was a mistake. i've been trying to change it since then. particularly the portion on cocaine. that's why i've been arguing

that we should not send anyone to jail for a pure drug offense. they should be going into treatment across the board. that's what we should be spending money on. that's why i set up drug courts which were never funded by republicans. they should not be going to jail for a drug or alcohol problem. they should be going into treatment. treatment. that's what we've been trying to do. the american people can now see that it is a mistake. >> why didn't you get it double? all talk, no action. why didn't he get it done. that's what i'll do when i bm prk. you were vice president for eight years. why didn't you get it done?

you're all talk and no action. >> 38,000 were released from federal prison. over 1,000 people given clemency. we're the ones that put in the legislation saying we can look at pattern and practice of police departments and what they were doing. how they're conducting themselves. i could go on. we began the process. we began the process. we lost an election. that's why i'm running. to change this terrible policy. >> why didn't you do it, i'm going to do that. i'm going to do this. tens of thousands of mostly black young men in prison. now you're saying you're going to undo that. you had eight years with obama. you're all talk and no action.

>> we had a republican congress. >> you have to talk them into it. >> we're going to move on. >> like did i with criminal justice reform. i had to talk democrats into it. >> we're running out of time. we have to get to climate change, please. you both have very different visions on climate change. president trump, you say that viralal regulations have hurt jobs in the energy sector. vice president biden, you said you see addressing climate change as an opportunity to create new jobs. for each of you. how would you combat climate change and support job growth at the same time starting with you, president trump, you have two minutes uninterrupted. >> so we have the trees program, we have so many tree programs. i love the environment but i want the cleanest crystal clear water, the cleanest air. we have the best lowest number in carbon emissions which is a big standard that i notice obama goes with all the time. not joe.

i haven't heard him use the term because i'm not sure he understands what it means. we have the best carbon emission numbers in 35 years. we are working so well with industry. here's what we can do. look at russia, look at india. it is filthy. the air is filthy. the paris accord. i took us out. because we were going to have to spend trillions of dollars and we were treated very unfairly. when they put us in there, they did us a great disservice. i will not sacrifice tens of millions of jobs, thousands the paris accord. it was so unfair. china doesn't kick in until 2030. roush. it would have destroyed our businesses.

so are you ready? we have done an incredible job. we have the cleanest air, the cleanest water and the best emissions standards that we've seen in many years. and we haven't destroyed our industries. >> vice president biden, two minutes to you, uninterrupted. >> climate change, global warming is an existential throat humanity. we have we're will, we much time. we're going to pass the point of no return in the next eight years. all the regulations, to limit emissions will put us in position where we're in real trouble. here's where we'll have opportunity. i was able to get the environmental organizations as well as labor. the people worried about jobs to

support my climate plan. because what it does, it will create millions of new good paying jobs. 50,000 charging stations on our highways so that we can own the electric car market of the future. in the meantime, china is doing that. we'll be in a position where we'll see to it that we're going to take 4 million existing, and retrofit homes so they don't leak energy and creating a significant number of jobs. this will create millions of jobs. it will clean the environment. our health and our jobs are at stake. that's what's happening. wall street firms indicated that my plan will create 18.6 million

jobs. 7 million more than his. and i'll create 1 trillion more on economic growth than his plan does. just on the economy. >> they came out very strongly and said $6,500 will be taken from families under his plan. that his plan is an economic disaster. if you look at his -- >> do you know who developed it? aoc plus three. they know nothing about the climate. i mean, she's got a good line of stuff but she knows nothing about the climate. and they're all hopping through hoops for aoc plus three. look, the real plan costs $100 trillion. if we had the best for 100 years, we would not even come close to a number like that. when he says buildings, they want to make bigger windows into smaller windows.

as far as they're concerned, if you had no window, it would be a good thing. this is the craziest plan that anybody has ever seen. this wasn't done by smart people. this wasn't done by anybody. frankly, i don't know how it can be good politically. they want to spend $100 trillion. that's their real number. he's trying to say it was 6. it is $100 trillion. they want to knocks do you know buildings and build buildings with little tuny small windows and many other things. >> okay. let me have the vice president respond. >> i don't know where he comes up with these numbers. $100 trillion. give me a break. this plan, this is a plan endorsed by every major environmental group and every labor group. labor. because they know the future lies in us being able to breathe. and they know there are good jobs getting us there.

and by the way, the fastest growing industry in america is the electric, excuse me, the solar energy and wind. he thinks wind causes cancer. wind mills. the fastett growing jobs and they pay good prevailing wages. 45, $50 an hour. we can grow and we can be cleaner if we go the route i'm proposing. >> excuse me. >> we are energy inl for the first time. we are energy independent. i know more about wind than you do. it is extremely expensive. it kids all the birds. it is very intermittent. they happen to make them in both germany and china. and the fumes coming up, if you're a believer in carbon emission, the fumes coming up to make these massive wind mills is more than anything that we're talking about with natural gas which is very clean.

one more thing. solar. i love solar but solar doesn't quite have it yet. it is not powerful enough yet to really run our big beautiful factory that's we need to compete with the world. so it is all a pipe dream. we'll have the greatest economy in the world. if you want to kill the economy, get rid of your oil industry. >> all right. let me -- >> i never said i oppose fracking. >> put it on the website. the fact is it's a flat line. >> would you rule out banning fracking? >> i do rule it out. the answer, we need other industries to tlans igs. we need a complete zero emissions by 2025.

what i will do with fracking, capture the emissions from gas. we can do that by investing money. >> i have one more question. >> he was against fracking. he said it. i will show it to you tomorrow. i am against fracking. until he got it, he'll be against it. i said no fracking. >> up people of color are more likely to live near chemical plants. in texas there are families who worry the plants near them are make go them sick. your administration has rolled back on these facilities yfrlt should the families give you another four years in office? >> they are employed heavily and making a lot of money, more money than they've ever made. if you look at the kinds of

numbers that we produce for hispanic or black or asian, it is nine times greater, the percentage gain, than it was in three years. two of them, to put it nicely. nine time. i have not heard the numbers but they're making a tremendous i saved it again a number of months ago. we got saudi arabia, mexico, and russia to cut back, way back. we saved our oil destroy and. >> your response? >> theyley on what they call fence lines. he doesn't understand that. they live near chemical plants

that in fact pollute chemical plants and refineries that pollute. i used to live near when i was growing up in delaware. and all the more oil refinery including houston at the time. my my first job, there would be an oil slick in the window. that's why so many in my state were dying and getting cancer. those front line communities, it doesn't matter how you pay them. it is coming out of those bench line communities. >> would you close down -- >> by the way, to transition yes. i would transition. >> that is a big statement. i would stop -- >> why would you do that? >> because the oil industry pollutes significantly. >> i see. >> here's the deal. >> if you let me finish the

statement. because it has, i stopped gig them federal subsidies. he won't give federal subsidies to solar and wind why. are we giving it to the oil industry? >> we do give it. the oil industry, will you remember that, texas lurgs remember that, pennsylvania? >> vice president biden. let me give you ten seconds. >> he takes everything out of context. the point is we have to move toward a net zero emissions. the first place to do that by the year 2035 is an energy production. by 2050, totally. >> is he going to get china to do it? is he going to get china to do it? >> no. i'm going to rejoin the paris accord and make china abide by

what they agreed to. >> this is about leadership. this first question does go to you, president trump. imagine this is your inauguration day. what will you say in your address to americans who did not vote for you? you'll each have one minute starting with you. >> we have to make a country totally successful as it was prior to the plague coming in from china. now we're reknow it and we're doing record numbers. 11 million jobs in a short period of time. but go back. just before plague, i was getting calls from people who were not normally people who would call me. they wanted to get together. we had the best black unemployment numbers in the history of our country. hispanic, women, asian, people with diplomas no, diplomas, everybody had the best numbers. and the other side wanted to get together. they wanted to unify. success will bring us together.

we are on the road to success. but i'm cutting taxes and he wants to raise everybody's taxes and put new regulations on everything. we'll have a depression the likes of which you've never seen. your 401(k)s will go to hell and it will be a sad day. >> vice president biden, what will you say in your inauguration address for americans other did not vote for you? >> i will say i'm an american president. i represented all of you whether you voted for me or against me and i'll make sure you're represented. i'll give you hopeful we'll move. we'll choose science over fiction. hope over fearful we'll choose to move forward because we have enormous opportunities. enormous opportunities to make things better. we can grow this economy. we can deal with systemic racism, and at the same time, we can make sure that our economy

is being motivated by clean energy. creating millions of new jobs. and that's the fact. that's what we'll do. and as i said in the beginning, what is on the ballot here is the character of this country. decency. respectful treating people with dignity. making sure e gets a chance and i'll make sure you get it. you haven't been get go at this time last four years. >> i want to thank you both for a very robust debate. president trump, former vp joe biden. thank you to belmont university for hosting tonight and most importantly, thank you for watching tonight. election day is november 3rd. don't forget to vote. thank you, everyone. and have a great night. >> and there you have it. the second presidential debate. the fact checkers will have, will be up late tonight, i think

it is fair to say. and we'll have more to talk about that in a moment. what we saw there, much different presentation than we saw in the last debate. we saw two donald trumps there. the flashes near the end of the one we heard in the last debate. a little more combative. talking over. certainly a lot more restrained than we saw. >> yeah. and we had a real debate. there was substance discussed, policies discussed, back and forth. there wasn't that, it didn't devolve into deeply personal areas. and the american people got a real look at what the choice is before them. >> and the question is, did each of them could what they needed to do under the circumstances 12 days out from the election. let's to go chuck todd who has been watching. chuck, right at the top. what stood out? >> well, first of all, the muted mics thing turned out to be a good idea.

i'll be honest, i was a bit skeptical but i think it was a good idea. a shout out to our colleague, kristen welker. it helped facilitate. at the end of the day, i do think viewers got the measure of both these men. i think this debate distilled who they are. i think in many ways, if you've been following this campaign closely, you probably did not learn a lot. but compared to what we saw in that first debate, i think there's almost a sigh of relief that we at least got an idea of what each might do. the thing that struck me the most though about this debate was how much the president took his defensiveness and tried to act like a challenger candidate. he didn't really talk about what he would do in a second term. he would not talk about defending, he would defend some of the attacks on himself. he kept trying, in some ways, he was trying to make joe biden the incumbent.

he's been trying to re-create his 2018 mojo. the question i have is, he was a trying to deflect answers on health care, deflect answers on covid, deflect answers on the economy. folks watching that going, wait a minute. who has been the president the last four years? you or that other guy? that's the question i have. i think donald trump stopped the bleeding tonight and that was an important moment tonight. >> it was president able to pump some air into the october surprise that he's been working? the emails? the hunter biden stuff. he kept bringing it up. >> i thought when he would talk about certain things, that issue and a couple other things, i felt like he was speaking the language of fox prime time. if you watch a lot of fox prime time, you understood what he was saying. if you don't, you have no idea. i'll be honest with you. people said, what is that? i don't understand this.

and i simply said, well, you don't speak that language. and i do think that was part of president's problem. he did speak to folks who already understand what he's saying. did he actually talk to anybody vacillating in the middle? did he make a pitch to bring them back to him? i did not hear that kind of pitch. when he went after the hunter biden stuff, if you didn't follow it closely, you probably don't quite understand what the hit is. >> let me bring in andrea mitchell. it is suburban women are the voters to get. they're ones who will decide the election. there was a much crisper presentation from both candidates tonight, actually. and i'll echo chuck todd. do you think that those swing

voters will take away anything tonight that could possibly help them change their minds? >> i do. first they saw a real debate. a tremendous amount of work that went into it and the command she asserted. she got them to debate with each other. you heard a contrast. by my count on race, the environment, on minimum wage, on immigration, separating children, just the facts are very much more so with joe biden than donald trump. and i think that the callous aspects of separation of children. these are the issues, on covid, that i think, i was in pennsylvania yesterday talking to people and it is very clear that is key problem that he is having. losing the support of suburban

women and the president, of course, is hoping that he can gain them back or have enough voters in rural areas, other voters, other white men, and bringing them back into the fold. i think in this debate, the care and empathy that joe biden showed. and it was the best debate i've ever seen joe biden do. i think that he rose to the challenge. he didn't get rattled. and i agree with trump. the intricacies of these allegations which have not been proved will escape a lot of people except through echo chamber. they have a very big mega phone and they do have fox and their whole media operation who will keep amplifying it. i think the things people really care about. they are going to hear this

debate and hear joe biden on. >> let's turn to david plouffe. he served as senior adviser to the president. as he biden sport as well. what stood out tonight. does the biden campaign have something new to worry about tonight? >> i don't think they have anything to worry about. i agree with chuck. maybe there is no more pleading on the side. my suspicion is they didn't see anything that said, sign me up for another four years. i thought the most important part of debate was the beginning of the debate which is the issue on most people's minds, covid. donald trump was the most passionate when he was attacking joe biden's family. not when he was talking about covid, health care, kids separated from their families.

so at the end of the day in a race that you're leading, at the bare minimum you want to leave it feeling like you didn't erode any support. i don't think joe biden did that. i agree with chuck. i think part of donald trump's approximate for his entire presidency, he's living in this fox alternative version of reality which there is a lot of intensity there but that's at most 30% of the country. last time i checked, he needs 50% of the vote to win. >> we bring in, a trump supporter, i want to hear what you thought about tonight's debate. it was a different trump. to say it was better than the first debate is maybe setting the bar a little too low but did you find yourself wishing you had seen more of this version of president trump along the way? >> i also wish i had seen it yesterday. i wish i had seen more of this version of joe biden at the end. i will transition away from the oil industry.

the sleeper moment came at the end when joe biden announced the shutting down of america's oil industry and that i believe will be the sound bite that will travel. he had to talk to pennsylvania, the president did, he talked to pennsylvania repeatedly about fracking and we'll see some fact checks on the vice president's record on fracking. the oil industry, the return to the paris accords. that was an unforced error by joe biden and i think it will resonate with a lot of middle americans being extreme. i thought the president was very effective when he spoke directly to the black community. by the way, our colleague kristen welker did very well maintaining the pace. she he ran a marvelous ship and that's a difficult thing to do. and i do believe he made some ground with the african-american community and that joe biden got tripped up by kristen on the super predator stuff. finally, although i was listening for the laptop and i heard the vice president open

the door to an examination about it, it did not dominate the way i thought it would. this was a very solid substantive debate. very few people changed their minds but all of them had their bias confirmation fed one way or another. >> we will take a quick break and be back more reaction to tonight's debate and what it means as joe biden and donald trump race to the finish line. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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but i can't say i expected this. abecause it was easy. to fight these fires, we need funding - plain and simple. for this crisis, and for the next one. prop 15 closes tax loopholes so rich corporations pay their fair share of taxes.

so firefighters like me, have what we need to do the job, and to do it right. the big corporations want to keep their tax loopholes. it's what they do. well, i do what i do. if you'ld like to help, join me and vote yes on prop 15. we're back with our final coverage of the presidential debate. we bring in hallie jackson. give as you sense of what it was like, the mood inside the room. >> it felt very different from the first and previous debate in cleveland when the air almost crackled with the tension as

president trump repeatedly obviously interrupted joe biden. it felt uncomfortable in the room. there was not any of that here tonight based on our vantage point in the audience. you could see people file out as the people are leaving. both candidates because of the rule enforcements, the muting of the microphones, and there was never a mute button. it is not as if someone was pressing a button to mute at will. it was the first two segment when they had the under interrupted time, as kristen pointed out. so you have a chance to hear the candidates speak. there are some issues already that i think will be driving some of the discussion over the next several days. specifically on policy which is what these debates are supposed to be about, and supposed to be focusing on anyway. for president trump i think there will be questions about his immigration stance when it cops to the migrant children separated from their parents. the president said they are working a plan but he revealed no specifics of it.

for biden there will be some questions perhaps on health care and what he describes as biden care and the public option. and that is something you may hear republicans and his critics seize on as well of biden, his allies and advisers are talking about came early in the night on the coronavirus issue. president trump said that we are learning to live with the pandemic. learning to live with the virus. and biden forcefully responded in fact, people are learning to die from it. and learning to live with the deaths of loved ones. president trump for his part, you heard hugh hewitt talk about it. the moment on the oil industry is something that you'll be hearing a lot about over the next several days. i can tell you based on a conversation we just had with a senior adviser to the trump campaign, they are thrilled with the president's performance. they felt like he drew a contrast as a career politician. lester? >> thanks. >> let's bring in nbc political analyst claire mccaskill, i know

what the editor of the national review. let me start with you, senator mccaskill. i think the consense us is both candidates had a good night. do you think it tightens up the race? >> i don't know. i'm not sure it changes the race much. true. trump was not a train wreck but he still lied a lot. he made up a lot of stuff. and that will continue to come out. and the one thing joe biden did, trump has really never learned how to reach out to people who don't love him. biden continually made it about america's families. and made it about america instead of red states and blue states. every time trump tried to say, that's a democratic governor or a democratic state. biden would bring it back and say this is one country west need a president who will try to represent everybody and unite everybody. and i think that speaks to those women in the suburbs much more strongly than some of trump's tike joe biden's family. >> what about the issue of the

oil industry? this campaign some think will be decide in the places like pennsylvania, the industrial midwest. was that a major error on the part of joe biden? >> well, he is in transition. i think anybody who has studied climate knows this is something the planet will have to do. and i think he was very clear about fracking. he believes we can capture the emissions and fracking can continue. it is important in pennsylvania. but joe biden, it was a good example of joe biden being honest which is just not in trump's repper or the. >> and what do you think? will this tilt the numbers one way or the other? >> probably not radically. trump obviously much better than the first debate. maybe a reason for some republicans doubts about him to come home. i think he hammered throughout the night that joe biden has been in washington forever. all talk and no action. but biden most of the night was pretty sharp and pretty pointed.

maybe a little overly canned but i think toward the end, he began to fade. he looked a little tired. and then did give the trump campaign a gift that you're going to hear a lot about in the coming days saying he will phase out the oil industry. which may be in his written plan but is entirely hearing it from his own mouth in front of tens of millions of people. >> since i asked senator mccaskill about that, when we talk about suburban women being key in this race, the moment when the president was asked about the separation policy and the 500 children, their parents can't be found by the government, the president said, well, they are very well taken care of. will that come back to bite him? >> it is one. issues together with covid, with health care, that he is just inherently on defense on. there is not a good explanation. now i think the rest of the immigration discussion, he discovered some points. he's right about catch and release. people come in the country.

they say they'll show up for proceedings subsequently and they might show up toer some proceedings but almost none of them show up for the deportation proceedings, to get on a bus or plane to be sent home. no one is that foolish. so that has been a successful ump policy that bitrde

another bundle in the books. got to hand it to you, jamie. your knowledge of victorian architecture

really paid off this time. nah, just got lucky. so did the thompsons. that faulty wiring could've cost them a lot more than the mudroom. thankfully they bundled their motorcycle with their home and auto. they're protected 24/7. mm. what do you say? one more game of backgammon? [ chuckles ] not on your life. [ laughs ] ♪ when the lights go down

>> bueno, con eso concluimos la >> yeah. that's the room where it happened. the final debate of the 2020 campaign. now the race is on to election day. some the election just 12 days away. a sprint to the finish for both candidates. >> we'll have a lot more bright and early tomorrow morning on the "today" show on nbc and nbc news.com. and this is my favorite show, nbc "nightly news" with lester holt. >> not bright and early. for all of us here at nbc news, thank you for joining us. so i'd like to terminate obamacare, come up with a brand new beautiful health care. >> he's been talking about this for a long time. there is no -- he's never come up with a plan. >> president trump and joe biden head to head for the last time before ele