Young man: how did the Village People's "YMCA," a song celebrating the closeted homosexual interactions occuring in 1960's Christian gymnasiums, become an anthem which a room full of 13 year olds at a church gathering would enthusiastically dance to in later decades?
A 12" remix of a previous answer:
In a 2008 oral history of 'YMCA' in Spin magazine, members of the Village People and one of their producers, Henri Belolo, explain the genesis of the song. According to David Hodo (the construction worker in the Village People):
It was 1977, and we were leaving a photography session on 23rd Street. Jacques Morali saw the big pink YMCA on 23rd and asked, “What is this YMCA, anyway? “And after laughing at his accent, we told him the Y was a place where you could go when you first came to New York when you didn’t have any money — you can stay there for very little. And of course, someone joked, “Yeah, but don’t bend over in the showers. “And Jacques, bless his heart, said, “I will write a song about this!”
The Jacques mentioned by Hodo is Jacques Morali, a French producer who was the (co-)writer and producer of all of the Village People's biggest hits; Morali was gay, and sadly passed away in 1991 from AIDS.
In the group itself, there was a mix of sexualities in the Village People, with some members identifying as straight, some being ambiguous in print about it, and some identifying as gay. For instance, another member of the Village People - Victor Willis, the lead singer of 'YMCA' - is notable for being quite insistent that he is heterosexual; he married the actress who played Clair Huxtable on the Cosby Show. Willis has a co-write on the song, and Randy Jones (the cowboy in the Village People) says in the Spin oral history that:
It was not intended as a gay anthem. Do you have the lyrics in front of you? There’s nothing gay about them. I think Victor wrote the words, but it’s all a big fucking mystery. The guy who really deserves the credit is Horace Ott, who arranged the horns and strings. Jacques had the ideas, but Horace transformed them into songs.
In contrast, Hodo says in the same article that :
“Y.M.C.A.” certainly has a gay origin. That’s what Jacques was thinking when he wrote it, because our first album [1977’s Village People] was possibly the gayest album ever. I mean, look at us. We were a gay group. So was the song written to celebrate gay men at the YMCA? Yes. Absolutely. And gay people love it.
According to a 2013 analysis of the song and the relationship between the YMCA and 1970s gay culture in The Believer by Nicole Pasulka:
At the Y, a spiritual man was a well-built, muscular man. The organization’s leadership positioned the regional branches as destinations that could protect newcomers from “negative” influences. It was here that many young guys had their first homosexual experiences. So Jacques Morali and Randy Jones were part of a history that included both diligent Christian bodybuilders and men cruising for “trade”—straight-identified, masculine men.
Pasulka and the Spin oral history both portray the YMCA as a place with an official anti-homosexuality policy, but a culture where homosexuality was often common. Pasulka also portrays the YMCA culture as becoming less gay towards the end of the 1970s, and becoming closer to mainstream culture, comparing it to the Village People's acceptance by the mainstream.
By all accounts, in a world where much of gay culture was very underground, the fairly obvious gay subtext of the Village People to modern viewers was less obvious at the time to the mainstream - there wasn't much public knowledge about what Pasulka calls 'clone culture'; gay stereotypes at the time were very feminised. In contrast to the feminised stereotype, the Village People cast a knowing look at heterosexual masculine stereotypes with their choice of dress - cowboys, construction workers, etc - and the knowing look was missed by a lot of the mainstream at the time. This meant that the Village People could deny the gay subtext was there when they felt it was appropriate - and for Victor Willis who may have written some or all of the lyrics, there really might have been no gay subtext.
According to contemporary reports, the YMCA floated suing the Village People for defamation because of the implications of homosexuality, but didn't go through it - in the context of 'clone culture' etc, and Willis's denials of homosexuality it would have been quite awkward to prove. In contrast, the YMCA is now more relaxed about the gay overtones; their media relations manager said to Spin in 2008 that "We at the YMCA celebrate the song. It’s a positive statement about the YMCA and what we offer to people all around the world."
As to why a room full of 13 year olds at a church gathering would enthusiastically dance to the song in later decades, the Spin oral history notes that, by the 1990s, the song began to be used in sports settings in America, encouraged by team managers and the like who thought the song would be a crowd pleaser. According to, for instance, the director of stadium operations at the Brevard County Manatees:
There are a handful of songs that just make you get up and dance. At our ballpark, “Y.M.C.A.” has to be considered one of them. “Y.M.C.A.” is a gay song? Honestly, I had no clue.
'YMCA' certainly isn't the only song with an origin in or links to gay subculture which has become a successful sports song; Queen's 'We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions' and Frankie Goes To Hollywood's 'Relax' both come to mind. Perhaps there is a story there about the cluelessness of most sporting people around the cultural clues surrounding music; things that are very obvious to people who are engaged in the culture of pop music often slide past the heads of people who are much less engaged in that culture.
But of course, pop music by its very nature is there to be used, and the people who make pop music generally hope for it to appeal to as big an audience as possible. Whether Hodo's claims about Morali's inspiration for the song are accurate, Morali very clearly produced the song to be a commercial hit. And to be popular, pop music generally has to provide something useful to more than one group of people, as there are always different groups in society who are consuming pop music; songs without a mass appeal amongst different demographics tend to not have...mass appeal.
'YMCA' has - and has always had - a multitude of uses beyond 'celebrating the closeted homosexual interactions occurring in 1960's 1970s Christian gymnasiums'. It would never have gotten to #1 (in the UK, Canada, Australia, and much of Europe) or #2 (in the US) if that was its sole purpose - at least some of the places where it was successful would not have understood the meaning of 'YMCA', let alone the overtones of sexuality. After all, the song is very danceable, with a four-to-the-floor disco beat that works very effectively. It has easily replicable dance moves that are fun to do. It's clearly catchy. Victor Willis's vocal performance is strong in a soul shouter kind of way. The costumes of the group are memorable and their dancing is interesting to look at when you see the video. It also fit squarely within an extremely popular genre - disco - which dominated the airwaves and the charts in the late 1970s, to the discontent of the rock audience shouting 'disco sucks'. It's entirely unsurprising that it was a worldwide success in 1978.
Peter Shapiro's book Turn The Beat Around: The Secret History Of Disco claims that the Village People were:
practically personae non grata in the gay clubs. Instead, the Village People got most of their play at aerobics classes for senior citizens who could perform the accompnaying dance to 'YMCA' without taxing their bodies too much, at barbecues by car mechanics who thought 'YMCA' was about playing basketball, at strait-laced high school proms in Kansas and at children's playgroups. It was Middle America that took the Village People close to its bosom".
The Village People, in some ways, have stayed in public consciousness as an avatar of the cheesiness of late 1970s disco - disco has a reputation for cheese, and the Village People were pretty cheesy even for disco. Peter Shapiro's Turn The Beat Around: The Secret History Of Disco is scathing about the group: "if disco had a nadir it was unquestionably the Village People. The Village People represented everything naff about disco: the stale beats seemingly phoned in by studio hacks, the dunderheaded English-as-a-foreign-language lyrics, the complete lack of subtletly, all delivered by [a bunch of stereotypes]". Shapiro, of course, is attempting to rehabilitate the critical opinion about disco in this book, to explain its import and meaning, and he is intent on showing that disco had a smarter, more cosmopolitan side than you see in the Village People. Nonetheless, he also admits that - even if they're a harmless novelty act - the Village People have a 'goofy pleasure'. And who can deny some harmless goofy pleasures to a bunch of 13-year-olds?
"Clone culture" is a new term for me. Does this refer to the archetypes of social masks like construction worker, cowboy etc or to the sexualized physical types in popular gay communities?
Also, as a working artist I’ve always been interested in the cultural output of marginalized groups and how they break into mainstream culture. I’d love to read a book about gay US culture from this time that is as comprehensive as, say, The Band Played On but not as focused on the horrible and devastating crisis of AIDS. This is important of course, but I’m already familiar with the history. It occurs to me as a naive hetero guy that one of the reasons why this song is so endearing is because of the celebratory nature, celebratory in the face of so much alienation and death. : (
Previous to the 1970s, there was a large association between feminised modes of social performance and homosexuality; think Kenneth Williams in the Carry On films; men who were gay or closeted signalled it by acting in ways more usually seen as feminine - being passive, being the opposite of butch, being delicate and dignified. New York clone culture (or Castro clone culture) instead came across as a sort of kitsch version of lower-class masculine culture - these were people who dressed like 1970s men, but...off. The construction worker, the biker, the cowboy, etc in the Village People were all hypermasculine stereotypes, but clone culture wasn't really about dressing up as such obvious stereotypes; it was more like dressing up a bit like that guy who flexes his muscles to impress the girls. Anyway, to us today it's very obvious, watching the video of 'YMCA', that we're looking at music influenced by gay culture, but clone culture was new to the mainstream in the 1970s, and it didn't immediately code as gay to mainstream America.
Wow, thank you so much! I guess that’s a similar origin as all those biker/cop homoerotic pinup art styles, right? In Oliver Sack’s recent biography he talks about how there was a bit of that in muscle beach in the .. 70s I think. Anyway, I really appreciate the breakdown; thank you!
Check out Cleve Jones biography “When We Rise” if you’re looking for a good look at gay life in the 70’s. The first half covers his time in San Francisco. You mentioned Shilts - The Mayor of Castro Street, about Harvey Milk, does a great job of painting a picture of 1970’s SF. Finally, a more controversial choice - the novel “Faggots” by Larry Kramer. Written in 1978, he took a lot of shit for it and was virtually ostracized from the gay community because he in great detail blasts the hookup culture that was standard then. His language can be rather stilted at times and it was a bit of a slog to get through but there are some good moments and it’s a great artifact of a very particular time.
'YMCA' certainly isn't the only song with an origin in or links to gay subculture which has become a successful sports song; Queen's 'We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions' and Frankie Goes To Hollywood's 'Relax' both come to mind.
I don't think of 'We Will Rock You/We Are The Champions' as particularly gay; do you just mean that Queen was a glam rock band with a gay singer, or have those songs got a particular gay resonance beyond other Queen songs?
It is true that Freddie Mercury hasn't said anything specifically about 'We Are The Champions' being about the gay rights movement - his comments on the song were that it was "the most egotistical and arrogant song I ever wrote" and that "I was thinking about football when I wrote it...I wanted a participation song, something that the fans could latch on to. Of course, I've given it more theatrical subtlety than an ordinary football chant."
It may or may not have been Freddie's intention to write a song about gay rights; Mercury would not have been quite as open about that in interviews in a much more bigoted age. But perhaps 'theatrical subtlety' has a double meaning there, and his calling the song 'egotistical and arrogant' suggests that it was a song with some personal meaning.
But yes, Queen were a glam rock band with a flamboyant singer who turned out to be gay, and with a history of writing songs about his sexuality that were disguised or cryptic - 'Bohemian Rhapsody' is generally considered to have lyrics centered around Freddie's coming out. 'We Are The Champions' certainly seems to be a song that the LGBT community, these days, does seem to consider a gay rights anthem; at the 1992 tribute concert to Freddie Mercury, which featured Axl Rose and Elton John doing 'Bohemian Rhapsody', 'We Are The Champions' was sung by ...Liza Minnelli.
Ken McLeod, author of We Are The Champions: The Politics Of Sports And Popular Music argued more recently that:
In a paradox with their overtly orthodox masculine sentiments, however, ['We Will Rock You' and 'We Are The Champions'] simultaneously espouse pro-gay sentiments, although many, predominantly heterosexual, listeners appear unaware or intentionally choose to ignore this fact. Lyrics from Freddie Mercury’s “We Are the Champions,” such as “I’ve done my sentence but committed no crime” and “We mean to go on and on and on and on,” are thinly veiled allusions to Mercury’s semi-closeted lifestyle.
What kind of association does Frankie Goes To Hollywood's 'Relax' have with gay culture? This is the first I've heard of it, but for myself (and I assume for most in my generation) it's just associated with Zoolander.
u/hillsonghoods has an utterly awesome answer about the history of "Y.M.C.A" that addresses your specific question at the end.
I mean this seriously, how do you keep track of all the questions asked, and answers given, so that you can correctly post the links?
Also, u/hillsonghoods' answer was great
Oh, there are a lot of strategies to use! I have a private subreddit where I link all my favorite answers so I can reread them and actually learn the material; I've also got the answers to questions people ask a lot there so ai can link them quickly. (With a nonreddit backup that includes my own answers).
Otherwise, http://www.redditsearch.io is really good especially if I have a vague memory of who has answered the question before (like here--I had this one bookmarked because I love sharing it with people; I think it's a great "quick marketing" success for AH, but if I hadn't, 20th century pop music is gonna be the immortal u/hillsonghoods!).
Also, many flairs maintain profile pages where they link all or many of their best answers, often divided into helpful categories.
There's also the actual FAQ. Unfortunately, owing to the wiki nature of its creation it's often hard to find things and some of the linked answers are from the early early days of the sub where a block quote from Wikipedia was a REALLY GREAT ANSWER, ZOMG!
Are link to comments from other subs allowed?
No. The only time we allow posts that are all or mostly links are to previous answers in the subreddit, and we ask that you credit the author in your linkdrop. :) (Also, we request that if you are linking someone else's answer, just provide the link, NOT a copy-paste or a tldr).
The private subreddit is a great idea. Is the FAQ still being updated, though?
Yes, the FAQ is being updated as an ongoing project. Flaired users here have access to edit it, and people tend to work on the sections that are of interest to them. But a lot of it happens when we look at it to answer users' questions and realize, zounds, that's a bad answer and it needs to be removed, etc.
Yes, we add great answers and answers to popular questions regularly, and are in the process of overhauling the whole thing. Some sections are better than others.
The organization is still a problem, but there's good and new stuff in there all the time. :)
The FAQ is still being updated as the flaired users have time. If you come across a thread that you think belongs on the FAQ, please message the mods!
Fascinating! I just went and watched the YMCA video in its entirety for the first time (I am sure I have seen snippets over the years) and I realized, they never actually do the famous Y-M-C-A hand/arm motions! They put their arms up in a vaguely Y shape, but nothing else during the chorus. That must have come from elsewhere.