A subreddit discussing U.S. presidents. Discord: https://discord.gg/55gMwewJuw
Discussion
Sort by:
Best
Open comment sort options
Best
Top
New
Controversial
Old
Q&A
Make sure to join the r/Presidents Discord server!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
I met a man once who was in an internment camp. He was American of Japanese ancestry. He grew up eating typical "American" food he said the camp actually tried to cater to traditional Japanese culture, which frustrated him because he was American. He said they offered them like sushi and stuff and he just wanted a cheeseburger. He got out of the camp by enlisting in the armed forces and he fought in Europe. He got a settlement check eventually from the federal government and donated the whole thing to charity.
That’s a cool story.
Germans and Italians really got off easy in the US
My great grandfather had to register as a resident enemy alien but that was it. Keep in mind, he was literally an Italian citizen!
Never met him, lost a foot in a trolly accident/was an ice man/owned two apartment buildings he lost in the great depression/smoked twisted cigars that were dipped in some type of alcohol. Oh, and completely illiterate which is why my last name has an O instead of an A. His draft cards were signed with an X which confirmed it.
My great uncle got in trouble and when my great grandfather bailed him out he refused to leave his jail cell because an old country beating was imminent lol
Germans and Italians were a much larger part of the population of the US at the time it was way less practical to put them in camps, funny enough I’ve heard that a non insignificant percent of the population of the US was pro German before the US entered the war.
Also I feel like it was probably easier to "pass" or lie about your ancestry to passers-by if you needed to. Germans and Italians and pretty much any European could look similar enough to the "proper" groups of Anglo people in America if they needed to. The Japanese could not.
Nope officer I'm safer here!
Sounds like an incredible man, thanks for sharing
A number of members of the 442nd were in internment camps at the beginning of the war. Fitting that they would become the most decorated company in the entire war.
Most decorated unit in US history, actually.
My friends’ Japanese-American grandfather was in the 442nd. They are so proud of him. One of his great grandsons is named after him:
That was Go For Broke, wasn’t it?
Yup. They broke the Gothic Line. Fascinating story.
I think that’s how Dan Inouye lost his arm.
This man deserves to be seen as American, what a shame that people like him were locked away because of his race
He could be number 1 if not for the Japanese interment.
Largely the same. FDR’s legacy is defined by shepherding the US through the Depression, building extremely durable domestic institutions & reforms and winning WWII. I don’t think the average American is that concerned about Japanese internment, sadly. When the avg person sees a President, Senator, etc. deliver on the things that avg person wants, he’ll sort of “yada yada” the rest. As an admirer of Huey Long & LBJ, I’m certainly not immune to this.
This is the right answer. He could have been even more controversial and he still would be remembered favourably
I would be far more concerned with the motivations of those trying to put a black mark on all his incredible accomplishments, due to his mistakes. Even then, it was a war and he was trying to mitigate the risk from within as they lacked the information provided by the current surveillance state we live in.
We literally need another real leader like FDR now, more than ever.
Nothing justified interning American citizens in concentration camps. The rest of his accomplishments are self evident but he can't get a pass on that one.
Concentration camps by definition, sure. But not in nearly the same context as what the Germans were doing. That matters here, a lot. There’s a vast gulf between internment and extermination. I’m not saying it was a good thing, and it absolutely deserves to be controversial, but it is not tanking, and probably won’t ever tank FDR’s reputation.
I'm sure it's not something your average American dwells on, but I've frequently heard internment mentioned when FDR is brought up in conversation. For some people, it's enough to discount the rest of his legacy.
I got the impression it gets brought up because it's basically the only real stain on his legacy. Kinda like how people bring up that Abe didn't technically free the slaves until way later as a slam against the guy.
It's this. I grew up around a lot of conservatives who despise FDR but they know attacking him on anything other than internment is a waste of time.
Things like context for the time get lost, the Abe not freeing ALL of the slaves until later was a political move. He freed all slaves in confederate states as to not lose the 4 loyal slave states and take the Confederacy's mask off to the rest of the world who considered slavery barbaric by this point in history.
I figure based on how you're bringing it up you understood it but thought I'd leave it there
Also, it would of questionable legality for him to free any slaves in those states loyal to the Union. He got away with the Emacipation because it only involved those states who were in rebellion.
Lincoln has kind of another stain with the suspension of Constitutional Rights including Habeas Corpus during his presidency.
Still the greatest president in US history despite that though. Every president had their dirty laundry.
Do people really hold that against him when he was reacting to a literal civil war? I always thought the issue with Japanese internment was that it was based on a xenophobic assumption that Japanese people were more likely to be traitors than German ones, and their coastal concentration.
Didn't Lincoln just basically throw people who were known sympathizers in jail?
I mean Habeus Corpus isn’t really a stain; the Constitution explicitly permits the suspension of Habeus Corpus during times of insurrection.
I suppose you can argue Lincoln didn’t have the unilateral right to, but he only did it unilaterally along rail lines which were a vital part of the war effort and necessary for the convening of congress, which then voted to allow for the general suspension of HC.
I don’t feel like anyone can argue that Lincoln suspending HC was a stain can do so in good faith.
That's not true. I've heard a few complaints about him defeating the nazis.
I would argue his lack of leadership on civil rights and the way that many welfare state programs were racialized are also marks against him. Especially redlining in the Federal Housing Administration. Still one of the greats though, all things considered.
To slightly advocate for the Devil, it would have been hard to push those things otherwise; I forget the exact details but I remember reading about the South trying to figure out means to prevent POC from taking part in outdoor public camp sites though – legally, due to the federal government – they had to offer such services to all U. S. citizens. U. S. segregation and the construction of de jure (in the South) and de facto (in the North) apartheid is something we've, historically, not taken seriously enough but it's still not easy.
I'd argue that it wasn't until LBJ that we had a politician so well at strong-arming segregationist-leaning politicians into voting against their own "interests"; if he hadn't gone and fucked up his foreign policy…
For sure. People are right to hold that against him, it was bad! To illustrate what (I guess?) my point was, kind of: I was a Bernie guy in 2016 & 2020 and when I did voter outreach I was amazed by the things that people refuse to think about and tell you they don't want to hear. Bear in mind, I was already pretty cynical. That scene in Don't Look Up when Jennifer Lawrence's weary mother basically says, "stop talking about the asteroid, I don't want to hear it" was painfully realistic, IMHO.
Plus, FDR had multiple valid controversies that will forever bring criticism (his attempt to pack the Supreme Court, confiscation of gold, lack of action on civil rights, etc.). Internment of Japanese-Americans is only one of them. He was going to be viewed in history as a complicated figure no matter what he did during World War II. I myself have deeply mixed feelings on him.
Not to mention the deliberate exclusion of African Americans from a number of New Deal programs, especially as far as housing and the development of suburbs is concerned. If anything, not supporting the internment camps just moves the focus of criticism of FDR towards other issues
Not to deny that FDR had his problems, but wasn't the development of suburbs and Levittowns a post-war thing which would obviously not have fallen on a president who had been dead for 2 years, unless you want to blame him for the actions of the new deal agencies who caused it.
The National Housing Act was passed in 1934 to create the Federal Housing Administration, which practiced redlining as a matter of public policy. Considering FDR would be in office for almost a decade after that point, I wouldn’t call it unfair to hold that against him.
Fellow Huey Long admirer 🙌🏻 kingfisher gang
Yes!! He’s a “problematic fave,” to say the least, but he did some pretty incredible stuff and he was extremely funny. The Huey Long episode of The Dollop is a favorite of mine, too.
The Dollop - Huey Long
Largely the same not because he did great things, but because most people don’t like to talk about how Americans had interment camps.
Further, they always point to the evilness of anti-semitism and the horrors of the Holocaust to gaslight people into not focusing on US actions.
As usual, the focus is strongly on anti-semitism - just like it’s happening today. The anti-defamation league didn’t start rolling out the “Stop the Hate” public service announcements until their own people started being accused of genocide.
The whole point is that there’s a pattern in American history that’s probably not unique to American history… the fact that we gaslight people to focus on others’ evils, when we have events like the Trail of Tears, Japanese internment camps, Tulsa Race Riots, etc.
We just don’t like to talk about our dirty history and that’s why FDR’s legacy is almost intact.
I agree. My family was in the interment camps and as fucked up as it was i rarely think about it and it doesn't change my opinion of FDR. The two major events you mentioned are the biggest bullet points of his presidency. The interment camps are one of many horrible sub-bullets related to WW2 and there were many wins here as well. I think we can all agree that results outweigh the mistakes when it came to stopping a germany/japan axis power dominated world. My generation has mostly forgiven, and the world has mostly not forgotten related to interment camps. This memory can hopefully help future generations differentiate people of a specific race and hostile government/military who shares the same race.
Never thought I would hear someone use a Seinfeld reference while discussing Japanese Internment.
Fascism enjoyer
What was the general view of the camps at the time?
At the time, a poll showed 93% of people were in favor of it for non-citizens which was about 1/3rd of those interred and 59% were in favor of it for citizens. Only 1% were against it for non-citizens, and only 25% were against it for citizens. The Supreme Court even backed up the decision.
It was a very popular decision to the people at the time which is why he didn't receive as much criticism at the time. Only as the country started to be less racist as a whole that people started to put the decision under heavy scrutiny.
You mind elaborating on Huey Long admiration? Most of what I learned about him was from high school and was largely negative so I don’t know the other side there
Here in Louisiana, we're taught about him and our 90s governor Edwin Edwards in a complex light. They were incredibly corrupt, Long more so than Edwards, but they got incredible reforms passed. Louisiana in the 30s was incredibly underdeveloped, and Long quickly ran through, made some deals, and got roads paved. He also passed incredible social programs and was even more radical than FDR on economic equality. My opinions on his "rubber stamp" legislature may be unpopular here because I'm a Marxist, but frankly, bulldozing through the institutions and getting things done is sometimes necessary, IMHO
I agree with much of what you said, but to me he's easily at the top with Washington and Lincoln if not for this and maybe a couple other things he did. It's difficult for me to put him there though knowing he put Japanese Americans in camps.
Thankfully for you and unfortunately for our country, they're all stained. Washington and Jefferson were slave owners. Lincoln freed confederate slaves before he freed union slaves.
But I bet you Jimmy Carter sleeps pretty good at night despite not being a "great" president.
This.
"I don’t think the average American is that concerned about Japanese internment, sadly"
Unless one of your relatives was interned :-0
That’s covered by the word average. The average American doesn’t have a relative who was interned.
Hey they gave them 50K in the 90s, totally fair. 🤷♂️
That seems fair for locking your whole family up because they were Japanese. Smh…
That would make them not average then. 125k were interned out of a 132 million population.
Talking about his presidency while using a picture of him as Navy Undersecretary.
That’s a paddlin’
But he's hotter in that picture /s
No joke, he was a handsome fellow in his younger days.
Straight to jail
Good catch! IDK if there are any Dollop fans in the audience, but Navy Undersecretary Roosevelt makes a surprise appearance in the extremely funny episode on the Newport Sex Scandal.
The Dollop - Newport Sex Scandal
More emphasis would probably be put on his attempt to expand the Supreme Court
Perspectives change. Back in the 1950s Eleanor Roosevelt was interviewed and talked about FDR. She mentioned the Supreme Court packing as his biggest mistake and didn't mention the internment camps. Racial issues in the US have become way more important than they were back then.
EDIT: Here's the interview. She talks about FDR's 2 great mistakes being the Supreme Court and the election interference (the UK helped FDR get re-elected back in 1940 election for his 3rd term).
What exactly happened with the UK? I remember hearing about it but it is a little foggy
Here's a Politico article on it. General gist is the British Security Co-ordination funded pro-interventionist candidates on both parties, published pro-British propaganda stories, attacked pro-Nazi politicians, and attacked pro-isolationist politicians in the media. British spies also spied on suspected enemy spies in the US with help from the FBI. The Nazis did something similar and sent $5 million to William Rhodes Davis in order to support pro-isolationist/pro-Nazi candidates in elections.
The 1940 Presidential election was one of the most important elections in history and it had lasting consequences on the world. Whoever the American public decided to support in WW2 would alter the course of the war so both sides tried to sway the American public to their side. Keep in mind the public viewed Hitler as just another land hungry politician who wanted war. They did not have a moral obligation to stop the Nazis and were not under direct threat. The US at the time was incredibly isolationist and refused to enter the war at all cost. There is a very likely scenario where the US just sits out of the war and let Hitler and Stalin carve up Europe for themselves had the US elected an isolationist president.
Despite FDR's personal views on the war, his hands were tied by the American public and he often had to use underhanded tactics to push public support for the war.
That law is still passed around today when the court seems a little too one sided.
Doesn’t make it a good idea
Fucking s tier baby
Yeah I think without the Japanese internment camps his legacy would be pretty untouchable. Obviously he still had shortcomings, but they pale in comparison to his achievements.
So, the same
Not gonna lie, he's already S tier. The lack of Japanese internment would just put him in S+ tier.
🐐
He should atleast be considered the Goat of the 20th century.
FDR will forever be an S tier president, Japanese internment or not. Yes it was a terrible executive order, but I believe he was using his best judgement. Even some Japanese people agree it was a necessary evil, given the tensions at the time. I just think he's done so much more good throughout his 12 years in office that trying to make the internment camps overshadow that is the wrong move.
But I also do respect FDR is a very polarising figure. Usually ranked highly but not always, and I love reading other opinions.
For me, only Lincoln and Washington are S tier. I know some put the Roosevelts up there as well, but to me there's a pretty clear line between the top two and the rest of the field.
I agree Washington and Lincoln are S tier for obvious reasons, but I personally believe any wartime President that had an active role in leading the country through its darkest times deserves a spot on that list. So in this case its Washington for basically establishing how everything would go for the rest or forever, Lincoln for the Civil War, Emancipation Proclamation, and many more achievements, and FDR because of WW2, possibly the darkest time in human history. I can understand putting him in A if you really want to keep S tier to be as restrictive as possible but I mean, come on. That took courage and true leadership to get the US through that.
Lincoln and FDR, despite their flaws. Washington is a slaver so I cannot, in good conscience, hold him highly. And his mythos has shielded him from criticism of his administration for way too long.
But being a slave owner, while absolutely despicable, had no impact on the policies he pursued as president. Could he have overturned slavery in the 1790s? One could argue that George Washington was so beloved at that time that he could do whatever he wanted...but I don't think he could have pulled that off. Considering that doing it 70 years later still plunged the country into Civil War. FDR throwing American citizens into internment camps was 100% a part of his presidency and it seems off that you can overlook that to name him S tier.
Yeah giving up power peacefully and setting precedent for the entire Presidency and indeed the nation, getting the troops through valley forge and ultimately winning the American Revolution is nothing compared to owning slaves at a time when it was pretty commonplace.
Slaveholding and doing nothing to end it, is a stain on any man's reputation. Grant got rid of his. Washington took his' teeth. Jefferson raped his.
Look up the Ringle and Munson reports. Correct me if I’m wrong but AFAIK it’s incredibly likely the U.S. gov knew that Japanese Americans didn’t pose a significant threat before internment. I also don’t think it was “best judgement” when Japanese families lost their homes, businesses, and belongings forever. Literally no care was given to the lives of over 100,000 people.
I will definitely do more research. I'm always interested in learning more about my favourite presidents.