Charles IV of France has a surviving son | Page 2 | alternatehistory.com

Charles IV of France has a surviving son

ByzantineLover

VVD0D95 said:
Joanna of Brabant
Click to expand...

I've been reading a bit more into the political situation there, and Joanna's father, John III of Brabant, wasn't always on good terms with the French crown, starting in 1316 when Louis X tried to make cease trading with Flanders, and when he refused banning all French trade with Brabant. Joanna's OTL marriage to William II of Hainaut seemed to be focused on uniting the two territories, especially if John III's sons died early or without issue, which is exactly what happened, except Joanna and William also died without issue.

A marriage with Joanna of Naples may not be plausible, or even acceptable by the Neopolitan lords, but it could be a good chance to get not only Naples but the Duchy of Provence and maybe even Genoa and Brescia. I know King Robert of Naples worked to keep Holy Roman Emperors Henry VII and Louis IV, as well as Henry's son, John, King of Bohemia, out of Italy, but I'm not sure of his disposition towards the French kings.
 
Last edited:

VVD0D95

Oh that is interesting. So in your mind would a marriage to Joanna of Brabant only occur through force? And the marriage to Joanna of Naples occur to keep Louis xi out of Naples for a time?
 

ByzantineLover

VVD0D95 said:
Oh that is interesting. So in your mind would a marriage to Joanna of Brabant only occur through force? And the marriage to Joanna of Naples occur to keep Louis xi out of Naples for a time?
Click to expand...

VVD0D95 said:
If of course butterlfies had Roberts son survive
Click to expand...

I meant that a marriage to Joanna of Naples would be much more interesting and profitable, if not entirely plausible, than a marriage to Joanna of Brabant. The biggest barriers I could see would be the interests of Philip of Valois, the most likely regent for *Louis XI, and the claims of the Hungarian Angevins - Charles Robert and his sons. But that just makes things all the more interesting, in the Chinese sense - instead of the Hundred Years War, we could have an earlier start to the Italian Wars.
 

ByzantineLover

Slight change of discussion. IOTL, Philip of Valois was named regent when Charles IV died and his wife was pregnant at the time. If either Philip (b. 1314) or Louis (b. 1324) survives, how much power would he be likely to have? His father had been an ambitious and powerful nobleman, spreading his influence and his progeny across Europe. Philip might try and do the same, trying to marry the King to his daughter, Marie, or his niece, Joanna of Naples.

And then there's Philip's son, John. If he is just the heir to the County of Anjou and not the future King of France, he wouldn't be such a prize. He could still possibly marry Bonne of Bohemia, but between 1326 and 1332, she had been betrothed to Henry IV, Count of Bar, the betrothal had been broken and she had been sent to a convent.

There are two other possibilities that I see, both around John's age. IOTL, a match between John and Eleanor of Woodstock, Edward III's eldest sister, but it fell through. The other is Joan of Penthievre, niece of John III, Duke of Brittany. IOTL, she married Philip's nephew, Charles of Blois. But in this situation, maybe Philip could try to marry his own son to Joan.
 

VVD0D95

I quite like the idea of Joan marrying john. I also think the younger Charles Iv son is the more powerful Philip of Valois will be.
 

ByzantineLover

VVD0D95 said:
I quite like the idea of Joan marrying john. I also think the younger Charles Iv son is the more powerful Philip of Valois will be.
Click to expand...

Okay. I've thought again about Louis XI marrying Constance of Sicily, eldest daughter of King Peter II of Sicily. I know I said the Sicilians might not accept French rule again, but there was previously a betrothal between Peter's eldest sister, also named Constance, and King Philip IV of France's youngest son, Robert, which ended when Robert died in 1308. The difference there though is that Robert was a younger son, not the heir to the French throne or the French monarch himself.

I guess it could come down to Philip of Valois' interests.
 

VVD0D95

Okay to me if Philip is the man I think he is he's going to want a relation as queen of France. That means either his daughter or a niece or some such.
 

ByzantineLover

New scenario:

* Charles IV's son by Marie of Luxembourg, Louis, survives his birth in 1324. When Charles IV dies in 1328, he becomes King Louis XI of France and Louis II of Navarre.
* Philip of Valois, the appointed regent, betrothes his daughter, Marie, to the young king, as part of his efforts to keep his ear.
* Charles, Duke of Calabria, still dies in 1328. IOTL, his widow, Marie of Valois, sister of the French regent, gave birth o a daughter, Marie. ITTL, she gives birth to a son, named Robert.
* Charles of Calabria's eldest surviving daughter, Maria (IOTL lived from 1326-1328) survives. King Robert of Naples, as part of his efforts to placate the elder Hungarian branch of the Angevins, arranges a double-betrothal between his grandson and eldest granddaughter, to a daughter and second son (Louis) of King Charles of Hungary, the eldest Hungarian prince, Ladislaus, being already betrothed to Anne of Bohemia.
* Philip of Valois' daughter, Marie, dies unexpectedly in 1333. Philip, determinted to keep his hold on the king, looks for one of his nieces to betroth Louis to. He, with some input from Louis, chooses Joanna, the younger and more beautiful of the surviving Neapolitan princesses.
* In 1343, King Robert I 'the Wise' of Naples dies, and the throne goes to his 14-year-old grandson, King Robert II.
* When the Black Death hits Naples in 1347-1348, King Robert II falls ill and dies. His sister, Maria, becomes Queen for a few months until she too succumbs to the plague, leaving Joanna as Queen. Louis of Hungary is driven out by the discontent and fearful Neopolitans who invite Queen Joanna to return. Louis XI of France wants to claim Naples and Provence by right of his wife, but Louis, and his older brother, Ladislaus, see Naples as their God-given right...

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

ByzantineLover

VVD0D95 said:
I like it alot
Click to expand...

Thanks. I know much of it hinges on sheer dumb luck, but just look at OTL. I also know that Brittany (in the case of John of Valois), Naples and especially Provence (in the case of Joanna) may not like being tied so closely to the French crown. Though my views may have been coloured with what happened IOTL with Anne of Brittany and by some of the views given in this book - "The beautiful Queen - Joanna of Naples", by Darley Dale, 1910 (https://archive.org/stream/cu31924087981720/cu31924087981720_djvu.txt).

IOTL, Joanna was raised and well-liked in Naples, but in the scenario I presented, the Neopolitans may end up deciding to crown a member of the Durazzo branch of the Angevins, or even decide that the Hungarians are the lesser evil.
 

VVD0D95

ByzantineLover said:
Thanks. I know much of it hinges on sheer dumb luck, but just look at OTL. I also know that Brittany (in the case of John of Valois), Naples and especially Provence (in the case of Joanna) may not like being tied so closely to the French crown. Though my views may have been coloured with what happened IOTL with Anne of Brittany and by some of the views given in this book - "The beautiful Queen - Joanna of Naples", by Darley Dale, 1910 (https://archive.org/stream/cu31924087981720/cu31924087981720_djvu.txt).

IOTL, Joanna was raised and well-liked in Naples, but in the scenario I presented, the Neopolitans may end up deciding to crown a member of the Durazzo branch of the Angevins, or even decide that the Hungarians are the lesser evil.
Click to expand...

Interesting, which would definitely lead to war with France I think.
 

ByzantineLover

Bumping for interest.

Having thought about this topic again, I have gone off the idea of a marriage between *Louis XI and Joanna of Naples. The four potential brides I can see for him would be:

Joanna of Penthievre (b. 1319) - although I could also see Philip of Valois trying to snag her for her OTL husband, Charles of Blois, or even for his own son, John.
Marie of Valois (b. 1326, d. 1333 IOTL) - eldest daughter of Philip of Valois, IOTL hetrothed to John, son of John III, Duke of Brabant.
Margaret of Brabant (b. 1323) - the only one of John III's children to have issue IOTL.
Constance of Sicily (b. 1324) - the eldest daughter of King Peter II of Sicily. IOTL, she never married and acted as regent to her brother, Louis before she died of plague in 1355. A precedent would be the betrothal between her aunt, also named Constance, and Philip IV's youngest son, Robert, before his death in 1308.

Any thoughts? I'm not sure if this was already discussed, but another thought that comes to mind is Louis' age of majority - fourteen, or not yet set?
 

VVD0D95

ByzantineLover said:
Bumping for interest.

Having thought about this topic again, I have gone off the idea of a marriage between *Louis XI and Joanna of Naples. The four potential brides I can see for him would be:

Joanna of Penthievre (b. 1319) - although I could also see Philip of Valois trying to snag her for her OTL husband, Charles of Blois, or even for his own son, John.
Marie of Valois (b. 1326, d. 1333 IOTL) - eldest daughter of Philip of Valois, IOTL hetrothed to John, son of John III, Duke of Brabant.
Margaret of Brabant (b. 1323) - the only one of John III's children to have issue IOTL.
Constance of Sicily (b. 1324) - the eldest daughter of King Peter II of Sicily. IOTL, she never married and acted as regent to her brother, Louis before she died of plague in 1355. A precedent would be the betrothal between her aunt, also named Constance, and Philip IV's youngest son, Robert, before his death in 1308.

Any thoughts? I'm not sure if this was already discussed, but another thought that comes to mind is Louis' age of majority - fourteen, or not yet set?
Click to expand...

Hmm I think Marie, or Joanna would be interesting, though Margaret of Brabnt would also be interesting as it could bring the duchy into play as well
 

ByzantineLover

I've come back to this idea, and I wonder, if Charles IV's second son, Louis, survives, a betrothal between him and Joanna of Penthievre could have been arranged in the four years between Louis' birth and Charles' death in 1328? From what I've read, Charles IV was greedy but conservative - "inclined to forms and stiff-necked in defence of his prerogatives, while disinclined either to manipulate them to his own ends or achieve wider reform". But I'd imagine he'd not pass up the opportunity for the crown to inherit the Duchy of Brittany.

I've also posited that Joanna of Penthievre might be betrothed to John of Valois, but I've also thought that Philip of Valois, being next in line to the throne and by marrying his son and heir to a powerful and/or wealthy heiress, might be accused of predicting/hoping for the King's death. Please stop me if I'm wrong.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top