Talk:Iaido/Archive 1

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Old discussion

Is this date, 1200th century, really possible? Source for this info? Iaido is a typical modern budo. This is the kind of practise that occurrs after the sword has had their time on the killing fields. Habj 22:48 Mar 26, 2003 (UTC)

--MicPowell 03:44, 1 October 2007 (UTC) As a curriculum major Iaido is traced back to Hayashizaki Jintsuke but in an Iaido book recently published in english on Shinkage Ryu the author suggests that some Iaido kata may be traced back to Itto Ryu which is circa 12th century! Any objection to this assertion he further states might suggest Nenami although even here his exact teachings are not known.:1200AD sounds more fantasy than history to me also. jni

I have made Batto-jutsu as a redirect to Iaido because it was redundant and its original contents were largely nonsense. jni 15:48, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I was under the impression that iaido and battojutsu were different techniques, as iaido was concerned with mainly seated techniques and battojutsu just refers to drawing the sword (hence batto) Eldamorie 29 June 2005 05:43 (UTC)

There is problems with staing that the current grandmaster of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu is Hanshi Miura Takeyuki Hirefusa, for the following reasons:

1. There are two main sects in Musu Jikiden Eishin Ryu both who currently have a Soke. One sect is affiliated with the Dai Nippon Iaido Federation, the other is affiliated with the Zen Nippon Iaido Federation. Apart from this there other localised sects of this style that are still exist without any affiliation to an administrating body. Furthermore there are other numerous Iaido federations.

2. It is symantically incorrect in Japanese to hold the tile of Soke and Hanshi, as Hanshi is a title traditionally lower in "rank" to a Soke.

I have to say that it is not semantically incorrect in Japanese to hold the title of Soke and the rank of Hanshi. In some cases (as in the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei), the term Soke is given to a selected person regardless of rank. In this situation, the Soke is required to grade as anyone else would. The current Soke (the 22nd Soke) of the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei, Ajisai Hirai, is a 9th Dan Hanshi.Kancho9 26 November 2005 23:40 (UTC)

I think you got it right with the 1200AD date being a little sketchy. The current historical timeline seems accurate according to what is currently accepted on the web and in Zen Nippon Iaido Federation publications under the 21st Soke Fukui Torao Seisan (deceased). Sourcing of primary historical documents would be necessary to make a rigorous statement. Perhaps a good project for those interested. Cheers, Nanamori.

For Eishin ryu Iaijitsu/Iaido, the lineage is traced to somewhere at the end of the 16th century. Regds, Bolax.

I changed the redirect from Batto-Jutsu to go to Battojutsu since Bttojutsu and Iaido are different. 4/16/06, Tesshu

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art add yourself!

Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_martial_art

For the record, Iai, regardless of -do or -jutsu, is not the same as battojutsu. These are two distinctly different art forms with different lineages. Iai, specificaly Muso Gikeden Eishinryu can be easily dated bacy 450 years to the time period during which the tachi was in wide use throughout Japan. This art adopted the katana later on when Eishin became the sokke, who also established the art's name. Iai is literally known as "the art of the draw" and involves the rapid drawing of the blade directly into an attack. Forms for iai involve the two sitting positions of seizan and tatehiza, as well as standing and walking. The intent being to prepare the practioner for attack regardless of his position.

Batto came along much later during what I believe to be the late 1800's, and was taught to commoner soldiers.

The first to organize what we now call Iaido into a main curriculm was Hayashizaki Jintsuke Minomoto no Shigenobi, who in fact did refer to his system as Shinmae or Shinmei Batto Jitsu. Otherwise in the scholarly context, I would agree that Iaido in the state of the art context is very different than Batto Jitsu. To elaborater,Batto is based on a literal draw to cut and thus tameshigiri is essential. Iaido origionally had the saya no ute connotation, which is the philosophic notion of winning while the sword is still in the saya. As a result many of the kata not only not commence from different postures btu may begin with a thrust or the use of the saya or pommel, making the subsequent cut part of a much more elaborate combination. For this reason and given the application of Physics to fine tune modern misconceptions I have advocated the use of the Ido suffix in accordance with Kodansha's translation of movement and mobility. See this Kanji Dictionay also for the prefix 'i' as in meanign mind or idea and 'a'for either sub,or subordinated or as in the Naganume Readers on for how etc.

An additional problem with the above text, although it is hardly a fault of the author is the fact that Iaido kata are in fact neutral to concepts and notions of attack and defence. Essentially they are an expedient used to teach the practioner the theory and praxis of swordplay and thus both attack and defence are properly studied neutrally.. --MicPowell 20:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Italic text

Images

Just noticed the following images on Special:Unusedimages. Maybe you iaidokas would like to use them:

File:Iaido.jpg Securiger 13:24, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Partner practice in Iaido is very dangerous". No, it isn't! This picture is, at best, very misleading. There are kata for two people to teach things like distance and timing. This inevitably involves an element of danger but hardly an unreasonable one. Wooden swords are used and the kata are learned very slowly. The kata also have safety features built into them such as pauses where one person steps out of distance or prepares a block before the attack happens. Alas, I have seen metal swords used for demonstrations or to pose for photographs but this is not how they are done properly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.141.94 (talk) 16:29, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

style notes?

i was fascinated by the addition of some of the theory and practice of the style- as pulling sword and sheath apart for a faster motion. could you include more information on that kind of thing?

On close observation of a standard Japanese sword one will note a brass or silver collar called a Habaki which is designed to be a wedge shape sufficent to hold the sword in the saya or sheath. Because of this the first motion is called koiguchi no kata. That is the opening of the saya is called a frogs mouth Koiguchi and frequently the thumb but ideally the index finger is used to release the wedge. The sword is then angled for it's desired path using a light touch drawing hand, with a slight pressure on the Mune or ridge side of the sword as it travels against the back of the saya. Some argue that the saya should be pulled back strickly to release it as the sword tip reaches the mouth, yet others especially when drawing with the index finger perform this saya beiki at the same time as koiguchi. It should be noted that the delayed saya beiki is usually done by players that use a sword longer than their counterpart and are less deceptive in their cutting angles. --MicPowell 21:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Italic text wrong, koiguchi no kata is "opening of the carp mouth". Koi is carp in Japanese, not frog (which is kaeru in Japanese).

Soke of TSKSR

9:30 pm January 16, 2006

I've changed the description of Otake Ritsuke from 'soke' to 'shihan' due to the fact that soke of TSKSR is currently Iizasa Yoshisada. Here are the references for the change.


http://tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/

http://www.koryu.com/guide/katorishinto.html

I've also heard some rather interesting claims about Tatsu Do and Mr. Cavalier regarding their connections to TSKSR and Otake Risuke. I guess those should stand until someone more qualified than I can comment.


Under "Styles of Iaido" there is an unattributed quote.

Reacting quickly

A quotation from the article: "The secondary emphasis is on drawing the sword and responding to the sudden attack as quickly as possible. Starting positions can be from combative postures or from everyday sitting or standing positions. The ability to react quickly from different starting positions was considered essential for a samurai (侍)."

Funny, Kenjutsu just takes an entirely opposite standpoint: "Based on the hypothesized that through the practice of iai a Samurai would be able to quickly draw his sword in response to a surprise attack. This is however a modern construct as any combatant taken by a surprise attack would stand little chance of surviving an attack. In addition there is also little to no focus on the speed of draw in most Koryu." chery 21:46, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The trend towards choreographed waza was initially for the beginner but has been expanded in large part due to the Kendo Federations influence over Iaido, with the result being more showy in a demonstrative context as opposed to sound theory and praxis. It is also to be noticed that traditional postures are not half as common as they were prior to Modernization and this too contributes to less practice in traditional form and movement generally.

The issue of surprise attack is a grey area because surprise can be a very vague term. In theory it had been suggested that he who moves first is lost. This is based on the realization that to move one does in fact alter and theretoo expose his position, much like a small force puts up greater defence if it stays in the castle and is quickly defeated if it comes out to challenge.

As a result the need to attack physically first is based on preceiving some form of initiative, or at least some assymetric point of contention that either has theoretically equal or at least unclear chances. Depending on spacial relationships this can become a very complex chess game before either sword is drawn.

One must keep in mind that the idea is to be always on guard, and maintaian that Zan Shin or 'remaining spirit' making the Master like the shark who never stops swimming or seems to go to sleep. Hence the surprize isn't a total lack of consideration but coping withg the gall or despiration of being attacked without declaration compounded by a quiet waiting game in which even the entire first meeting could be a mere feeling the other out. --MicPowell 03:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Terms

I have noticed several things that should be included in any update. this includes clarification of terms, and more accurate material on the Kendo Federation's iaido kata. This article is dogmatic about terms that are not absolute: 1. iai/batto v. kenjutsu kenjutsu koryu and iai/batto koryu are presented as being very different in this article. In reality, many kenjutsu koryu had "iai" kata (i.e. solo kata that start with a sheathed sword). Yagyu, for example, is best known as the kenjutsu koryu that had Shogun for patrons but it also has a large collection of iai kata. On the other hand, Muso Shinden Ryu has four or five sets (depending on author) of a dozen kata that are iai, but it has six sets of kumitachi kata (e.g. kenjutsu kata) with about 7 to a donzen kata each accourding to Danzaki Sensei. However, Danzaki Sensei's book leaves out the shoto v. tachi (short sword versus long sword kata) so there are seven kenjutsu kata that make up the full curiculum of one of the most popular "iaido" koryu. So in reality, the difference between a kenjutsu koryu and a batto/iai koryu is in the emphasis. Iai koryu tend to teach iai kata first and later two person kata while kenjutsu does the reverse. This article should reflect this reality. The splitting of Japanese sword arts into the different boxes of iai/batto, kendo, and kenjutsu is a modern convention, and many koryu overlap the difinitions.

The distinctions are quite disparate and attempts to lump them together in the Kendo Federation plainly shows that Iaido has suffered greatly because of it. Generally I would agree that all of the schools of swordsmanship are in their appropiate Buddhist context, expedient means and therefore individually pragmatic courses. However they remain vastly different. In short to use a Chess analogy Batto is compositionally mating problems, Kendo is middlegame positional tactics but Iaido is the theory and praxis and such a practioner properly trained is much more inscrutiable than the other two. For example a proper Iaidoku can travel faster and farther on the floor than a standing Kendoku or Batto Practioner,has a wider array of drawing techniques and can handle one hand combinations better. Kendo may provide some semi combat experience but at the expence of sloppier techniquesand especially sword tapping as opposed to a technical cut. Batto is the least mobile and despite greated chopping skill is not always sound. Italic text2. Do v jutsu Lets not get hung up on this modern convention. In 21st century Japanese martial arts have used "do" in their names because of the conotation that people do this martial art to cultivate the person more than to learn how to fight and that it is a morally uplifting activity. Other schools of martial arts have used jutsu to imply that they are unchanged from the time that the samurai class was abolished in the 1870's. Different schools of iai/batto have used both "jutsu" and "do" in the last one hundered years.

The argument between Do verses Jitsu is a very critical and serious one. It must be appreciated that Martial Arts in the East was strongly influenced by Buddhism and Taoism and as such the term Do implies a Way or Path that can literally lead to enlightenment. The exception is Iaido because ido can be use as movement or mobility althought this is not a published translation. The term Jitsu is in the East, akin to the word art in the context of an aquired skill or system for it, but what is tricky here is that many subjects that the west treats distinctly as science are in Nihongo jitsu. Italic text3. Iaido v Batto Before Nakayama Hakudo (a.k.a. Hiromuchi) Sensei started popularizing the term "iaido" in the early 20th century, Muso Shinden Ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin RYu were known for their "batto" techniques. In fact there is even a kata called (drum roll please) "Batto." Another example is Toyama Ryu Iaido. Toyama Ryu was created by a committee of Nakayama Hakudo Sensei and couple of other sensei in the 1930's for the military. It's name has gone from Toyama Ryu Battojutsu (even though founded by a man who called his art iaido)to Toyama Ryu Iaido after World War Two to Nakamura Ryu Battodo under the leadership of its soke, Nakamura (note: there were two other "soke" of Toyama Ryu who studied at the Toyama military academy. I do not know what variation in name the other two branches use).

"Seitei" is no longer used by the Federation. It is now Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei Iai. "Seitei" should be included inthe article since it is still used by much of the iaidoka community to refer to this kata.

As for Seitei Gata I am sure Mrs. Clinton loves the drumroll, Hillary Rodham Clinton but in either case those interested know who we mean. At any rate Seitei is bastarde kata, meant as a synapsis on Iaido for the benefit of the Kendo Federation which exploits the Iaido cummunities need for insurance in exchange for a seal of competence. My statement is rooted in politics but clearly to plead ignorant to the growing influence is itself political.

Batto is translated as draw and cut using On terms from China as opposed to the Kun reading indicative of Japan as this is a scholarly suggestion,so it is logical that some Iaido kata are just so, Classical interpretations of a draw & cut.--68.175.107.66 22:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Charleslham 19:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)--68.175.107.66 22:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)Italic text

External Links

I suggest thenumber of external links be drastically reduced. Most articles have 2 or 3, max of 10. The should add info.Peter Rehse 02:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. No idea what the rationale behind removing the recent tagging was. Editor, justify thineself. Chris Cunningham 23:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
No. Actually do something, instead of trying to order people around. Generic Character 20:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Apologies, that was meant rhetorically rather than as a command. Tagged again. The cultural references section is also in need of being eliminated, lest it becomes a list of cultural references to sword fighting or the like. As for the extlinks, it's a clear violation of WP:EL, and Wikipedia is not a directory service for clubs and associations. Chris Cunningham 10:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The external links are too numerous as it is. For some reason I cant understand there are external-links to Muso Shinden-ryu and Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryu sites in this article eventhough the two ryu have their own Wiki-articles. If noone can give me a good reason why these external-links should remain in the Iaido-article rather than respective ryu-articles, I'll be moving them shortly Fred26 12:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, since noone has any objection and since someone else has decided to add another link to Muso Shinden-section I will start moving the external links to the respective ryu. Fred26 04:57, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Iaido-ken

Being that several fictional characters (Ukyo, Goemon) seem to perform iaido with the same kind of sword, I'm wondering if it has any solid association with the art... and also what you CALL one of those swords.. with no tsuba and an uninterrupted handle that matches the saya.. making it look like a cane or a bokuto... you know the ones!

Wikipedia article Shikomizue has more information on this type of weapon. Alnyee 01:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I haven't seen the fictional characters you have mentioned so I am speculating here, but generally the smith that makes or polishes the blade isn't the same as the individual that provides the furnishings called Koshira. Thus the new blade is presented in Shira Saya, a simple and clean wooden form which is preffered when shipping or putting the Sword on display. In the latter case so that the craftsmanship of the furnihing does not distract from the aesthetics of the blade as an object of art in itself.--68.175.107.66 23:06, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Major revamp of the article

Took the initative and cleaned up the article and moved all the external links save a few vital ones. The links that lead to Muso shinden ryu, eishin ryu (and so on) will be moved to their respective articles for the time being. The other links can be found below if someone can motivate their re-insertion.

Furthermore I think that the Iaido article should contain any Seitei Iai related material until such time a seperate Seitei Iai(do) article is created (if need be) and put the majority of information regarding other ryu into their own respective articles if any. The Shinkage and Takeda-ryu link should remain since there are no respective articles as of yet.

I've also moved the references to Iaido to a seperate article since it was getting too big for comfort. The new sub-article can be found here Iaido in popular culture.

Note! The Iaido in popular article was deleted after consideration and discussion. Delete-log and the discussions can be found here. Fred26 08:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

This is the original Link-lineup for this article before I changed it to the present state: Fred26 18:02, 24 February 2007 (UTC) "External Links" Seitei Iaidō


Muso-Jikiden Eishin-ryu

Muso-Shinden-ryu

Shinkage-ryu

Takeda Ryu

Others

I have to say that I am very surprised to see the current version of the entry on Iaido, as it seems to be completely centred on the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, with other Federations (Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei and Zen Nippon Iaido Renmei) not even being listed anymore. This is meant to be, in my view, a fair indication of Iaido, and should not be biased towards one particular organisation, as it currently is. Seitei is not a part of the Dai Nippon Iaido Renmei, which uses the Tōhō set instead. Could we please make the listing more fair?? Kancho9 124.110.43.151 13:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

added the seiteigata-list

In the Eishin-ryu article there was a good list of the kata found in the seitei iai system, and since that list seemed out of place in the Eishin-ryu article I moved it here (for lack of a Seitei Iai article). Fred26 08:49, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

I've added the kana and kanji for the ZNKR seiteigata, along with translations and romanisation from the English-language version of the ZNKR manual (I would personally choose to translate some of it differently, but I think it's best to go with the official version).Oroshi 15:34, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
No argument here. I'm no kanji or japanese language expert in any case. Fred26 17:56, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

MJER/MSR and Sōke

This paragraph in the article confused me, but I don't want to edit it without checking with those more knowledgeable than myself:

In the All Japan Kendo Federation (AJKF) or Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei, one of the largest federations both in Japan and outside Japan, there are two lines representing the Muso school. The current sōke for Muso Jikiden Eishin-ryū is Fukui Torao (21st master), and the last sōke for Muso Shinden-ryū was Nakayama Hakudo with no official successor.

Firstly, should MJER and MSR be jointly referred to as "the Muso school"? The musō in MJER is 無双 (unparalleled), whereas the musō in MSR is 夢想 (dream/vision). They have a common root, but are distinct styles.

Secondly, is there a reason for saying that the current sōke of MJER is the late Fukui Torao rather than Ikeda Takashi? Is it a matter of politics or is the information just out of date?

Also regarding sōke: is it correct to refer to a style having multiple or disputed sōke? Although there are multiple schools of MJER I believe only one of the headmasters is referred to as sōke, and this is currently Ikeda Takashi.

I may be mistaken in questioning any or all of these points, so feel free to educate me if this is the case. Oroshi 18:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've already answered some of my own questions, by asking my sensei (which is what I should have done to start with). There are several people seen as the sōke of MJER, depending on which branch of the school one ascribes to - so whether Ikeda Takashi is sōke or not is a contended issue amongst members of the ryū. However, he is the successor to the late Fukui Torao. Oroshi 22:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to follow up on this - can anyone confirm whether or not Ikeda Takashi is recognised by the ZNKR as the sōke of MJER? Fukui Torao has passed away but he is still listed as the recognised sōke, even though Ikeda sensei was his successor. Oroshi 21:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I will try to check for sources but it is my understanding that a Soke is the undisputed head of a faction or school charged with the transmission of the schools ultimate curriculum much like the early transmissions of Chu'an or Zen. Others may have a menkai as branch head or Hanshi even but these I am told are lesser greats.--MicPowell 03:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling

As "ryu" is not an English word, it needs to be romanized properly, as per WP:MOS-JA. LordAmeth 16:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I had the spelling mostly corrected but Kendo 66 (who sometimes edits anonymously from Victoria, AUS IPs) has been going about removing all the macrons I've put into iaidō and iaitō. He is blatantly ignoring WP:MOS-JP. He seems to think that our technical foreign jargon has currency among typical English users and doesn't need to be romanized with macrons. I guarantee that a significant number of Japanese don't even know what iaidō is. His behavior is remarkably rude and inappropriate for someone who presumably studies budō. Red phase 15:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Red phase, corrected, in your opinion. You suggested that I blatantly ignore WP:MOS-JP, so I checked there again and found - "An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese:" I agree with you that some words probably do need to include the macron, like "Battōjutsu" for example, as they aren't in common use.
Macrons for Japanese words in common use in English is not the convention even amongst authors of English language budo books.
For you to then describe my changes as vanadalism and rude is really a bit much.
You mention that I sometimes edit anonymously, correct. Nothing clandestine, it's just that sometimes it's just quicker for a minor edit.
Lastly, I don't know why you wish identify where I am located, it's no secret, if you had asked I'd tell you, but other than show how clever you are, it is of no relevance.
You wrote above that you find me rude, but you use abusive words to me elsewhere and accuse me of being a vandal.
Please consider all this and I am prepared too discuss this further with you.
What do other editors think?
I'm afraid I just edited the article to rather arbitrarily reintroduce macrons to all words with long vowels. Having read some more, I believe that words like 'kendo' should be written without macrons as that is their naturalised form in English; however less common words such as sōke, nōtō, battō, iaitō and so on should be written with macrons. I think that if iaido is to be written without a macron a pronunciation guide with a macron (as in the Kendo article) should be used at the start of the article.
When writing essays in English on Japanese topics, macrons are always used for long vowels, unless a word has been adopted into regular English use. Therefore I think words like budō, whilst often written without, should technically be written with macrons. There should only be a few exceptions to the rule - in this case 'kendo,' and perhaps 'iaido' as well. Oroshi 14:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, I'll proceed and edit as suggested. Manually signed - Kendo 66 (as the tildes didn't seem to work!)

Pronounciation guide

It would be useful if someone could record a native Japanese speaker saying the word iaidō as a guide to proper pronounciation. An IPA transliteration would also be useful. Red phase 21:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Do we have enough material for a Seitei Iai article?

This article has the double duty of informing about classical iai and modern Iai, where Seitei Iai is the largest modern form of Iai today. I think that if and when we have enough material we should create a purebred Seitei-iai article and keep this "Iaido" article as a general overview. I do not know enough about Seitei to be a head-writer for a Seitei Iai article, but if someone else feels we have enough material, and/or can add more, then I would recommend you do so. Fred26 18:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Names of seiteigata

I originally took the translations of the seiteigata names from the official ZNKR English-language manual. I noted at the time I'd personally choose to translate them differently, but decided to go with the official translation. They've now been altered in the article (and some of the new translations I don't agree with, namely 'Eluding' for 'Ukenagashi'). Rather than just change the names back without consulting anyone, are there any comments on the translation? Should we use the official ZNKR translation, or do you prefer the personal translation that has replaced it? Oroshi 08:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I made the changes, and I wasn't aware that the translations were from an official list. In that case, they should be changed back until someone has a good reason to retranslate them. I'll do this immediatly. Incidentally, I got the definition "eluding" from Jim Breen's Japanese dictionary, which has an entry for "ukenagashi", as follows:
受け流す 【うけながす】 (v5s,vt) to ward off; to elude; to turn aside (a joke)
Notwithstanding this, since they are the ZNKR's official forms, their official translations probably ought to stand.Bradford44 20:34, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for being so cooperative :-). Incidentally, I would choose to translate 受け流し as 'turning aside,' although the Japanese meaning and the etymology is more complex than this and implies a lot more - but let's not get into that now! Oroshi 16:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I also would have preferred "turning aside", except that the parenthetical information "(a joke)" implied to me that the term only means "to turn aside" in a metaphorical sense, as in turning aside a joke, and thus is not an appropriate term to use for "turning aside" in a physical sense, which is of course what you are doing in the opening move of the kata. But let me be clear that this interpretation comes not from an understanding of the term itself, but only from an interpretation of the dictionary's syntax for how definitions are presented and meant to be understood. Not that any of that is important, but being bored at work seems to compel me to discuss minutia... :P Bradford44 17:29, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
At the risk of this discussion growing bigger than it needs to, the Kojien definition of the literal term 受け流す is 斬りこんできた刀を軽く受けて他へかわす, which is closer to 'turn aside' than any of the other English terms mentioned, in my opinion ('parry' sounds too close to 'block' in my mind). Ukenagashi explicitly refers to receiving a strike and washing it away, rather than avoiding it or swatting it aside. Oroshi 11:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I reverted the seitei gata list to an earlier edit. The reason is that the names of the kata are as used in practice, but maybe more importantly, they are the names assigned to the kata by the AJKF. The translation is still there, as is a brief description of the kata. I understand the Wikipedia convention on japanese words, but these are names, so I suggest that they are appropriate to be read first. We accept that we use the word "kendo" and not "japanese fencing" as the name of that activity, similarly we use the word "seitei" instead of "enactment" and "iaido" instead of "staying combination road" (that Google translate came up with). Happy to discuss.

Total support here. Oroshi 12:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, to start with, kendo is a loanword, and if iaido had a simpler translation I would suggest we use it more prominently. Further, "seitei gata" should not be used first, but only after presented with its English translation featured prominently. When you say "we" use these terms, you mean martial arts practioners, which makes up a very small minority of the English-speaking world. Try and imagine the non-martial artist's experience with the article. He'll just skim right past the list of words he doesn't understand and can't pronounce. The Japanese names and script are of secondary importance to the vast majority of readers - hence, they ought to be included parenthetically. Syntax in the article body should be "swordsmanship" (kenjutsu), "standard forms" (seitei gata), and "All Japan Kendo Federation" (Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei). Likewise with any list of techniques. I understand that the Japanese names are most familiar to and most easily identified by martial artists or iaido practitioners, but you have to understand that they are completely meaningless to everyone else. There is a reason for wikipedia's policies at WP:MOS-JP and WP:Use English. Bradford44 16:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The difference with the seiteigata, as I see it, is that the kata names are titles. Plucking an example out of the air, the film Ugetsu Monogatari is listed under the entry Ugetsu, even though there is a translation available ('Tales of Moonlight and Rain'), because it is always known by the title Ugetsu even in English. Similarly, the kata are always referred to by their Japanese names, and never by translations. They're always called 'Mae,' 'Ushiro' etc. no matter what your mother tongue is. The translations are just additional information, not what the kata are called. Oroshi 22:38, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to add here that Seitei and Seitei Gata can be ambiguious terms since Ogawa has Seitei Gata anbd Jodo has Seitei Gata that are completely unrelatedItalic text'--MicPowell 03:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

References

I'm asking because I'm not overly familiar with this style (I teach Chinese weapons) but I at least know it is a real style with a long history. The article is tagged as lacking references, would any of the references listed at Battojutsu be usable? --Fire Star 火星 03:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

External links

I've been adding an external link:Video of all the Seitei gata in the AKBAN-wiki. As far as I know this is the only place that has the Seitei gata logically arranged, free, open to all to reedit or erase, in video and with an accompanying text. As I do not think an edit war is helpful, I will post this talk at the user who deleted the link. I tend to think it is a necessary external source that adds the much needed visual dimension to the textual Wikipedia article. Disclosure - I know the guys who are into the AKBAN project and have been training with them. Gingihan

Dear Gingihan, I have removed the Akban link again, as in my opinionit does not comply with WP policy. Details at -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided.
Kendo 66 11:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Dear Kendo 66, I have read the WP policy concerning external links and could not find any one article that conforms with the link I have provided.

As far as I know all the videos in the above link are self produced and the link you removed is the only martial art wiki in the net that contains systematically arranged videos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gingihan (talk • contribs) 04:44, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Iaijutsu and Iaido

I have read through this article and I am a little disappointed that "iaijutsu" is redirected here. The reason being is that while it may be true that the terms are used interchangibly here in modern Japan, it does not mean they are the same thing and perhaps a re-naming of this article to "Iaijutsu and Iaido" or the Battojutsu article to "Iaijutsu and Battojutsu" is warranted, (since they aren't the same thing, technically speaking). That is to say, Iaijutsu is a blanket term used to describe old iai techniques, which go by various names depending on the ryuha (such as batto, iai and kempo). Furthering that, in the modern world Iaido is a broader blanket term used to describe both modern and old schools, simply because of the context of being in the present-day. This is a problem inherent to the use of layman language, which assumes that the layman does not know the difference; this is further carried on by people who know the difference trying to reduce the level of complexity in communication to reach those masses- while verily, they are un-intentionally contributing to it.

If the combining of the name suffixes from 'jutsu to 'do was in fact a the modern method of Japanese, then the Jujutsu article should be redirected to Judo; following that the Kenjutsu article should be re-directed to Kendo. But seeing this is inaccurate, it does not make sense to do so. Why should it remain so here? While it is a good idea to combne the two, it does not mean that the other common term "Iaijutsu" should be discarded. 


So, this is what I am getting at:
  • The article should be broad enough to encompass the re-naming to Iaijutsu and Iaido.Otherwise, the "battojutsu" article should be re-named to fit. At the moment the content is what it is, so a re-naming should serve as a first step to perhaps a re-orgnanization- especially to avoid confusion in the Koryu articles I am working on.

Kudos!! Mekugi 09:32, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The first step would be to create a section on Iaijustu here, for redirects to point at, then split it off when it becomes large enough. --Nate1481( t/c) 10:18, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
It might be easier just to redirect to the battojutsu article, seeing. What do you think?

Mekugi 11:55, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I cannot speak Japanese, but I have been taught by Japanese teachers. They do indeed often use -do and -jutsu to talk about the same thing but not quite interchangeably. Something-jutsu is practicing something for when it is done for real. Something-do is studying something in order to understand it better. So, there is considerable overlap and the choice of which to use depends on the context of what is being said. It might be entirely a matter of emphasis and personal preference.

I think it would be better to just note that it has become a convention to use -jutsu for the older arts and -do for the modern (post-war ones). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.177.249 (talk) 13:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

identifying

the image associated with "origins" is that of Haruna Matsuo, 8th Dan Kyoshi, 1926 - 2002. I have no idea why the earlier identification of this renowned sensei is now replaced with the the identification of attire, "aido practiced wearing a hakama" as if this is a grade 6 school book. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oyigit (talk • contribs) 20:25, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:42, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


Iaidō → Iaido – "Iaido" has become a common English load word.

  • Opening statement of MOS:JP states "An English loan word or place name of Japanese origin should be used in its most common English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese; that is, use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jujutsu, and shogi, instead of Fuji-san, Tōkyō, jūjutsu, and shōgi."
  • MOS:FOREIGN states, "The use of diacritics (accent marks) on foreign words is neither encouraged nor discouraged; their usage depends on whether they appear in verifiable reliable sources in English and on the constraints imposed by specialized Wikipedia guidelines."
  • WP:COMMONNAME states, "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it instead uses the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources."

Books Google show 5,900 books using "iaido",[3] compared to 4 using the macron name.[4] Jappalang (talk) 01:57, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

    • I agree with the reasons and support the proposal to move (or rename) the Iaido article.Kendo 66 02:32, 31 May 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kendo 66 (talk • contribs)
    • I support the move based on the reasons given. Papaursa (talk) 15:50, 4 June 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hardness??

What does that mean?

Focus Weaponry (Katana) Hardness Forms competitions only. Country of origin Japan Parenthood Iaijutsu Olympic sport No — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.130.173 (talk) 21:41, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

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