Talk:Western Pomerania/Archive

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It is commonly called West Pomerania. (Mecklenburg-West Pomerania gets more than 9000 hits), and sometimes also Hither Pomerania (as opposed presumably to Thither Pomerania) (369 Google hits). Adam 03:51, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

To be very precise, Vorpommern is a part of Western Pomerania. However, I changed it from Fore Pomerania (7 hits) to Vorpommern (45,500 google hits, English pages only) -- Nico 04:03, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Searching the entire Google.

West Pomerania: 10,400 [1]

Western Pomerania: 12,300 [2]

Hither Pomerania: 359 [3]

Searching English pages only:

Vorpommern: 45,500 [4]. English name seems to be Vorpommern. -- Nico 04:20, 14 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I agree. This is probably because there is no real English translation for "Vor". Adam

Controversial name change

I wish whoever moved this page had used the proper page moving procedures. The new name, Hither Pomerania, is somewhat problematic. While I generally am a strong supporter of the Use English policy, in this case it seems to have produced a bizarre result. Hither is a reasonable translation of Vor-, but it is also an archaic word that it is hard for a modern English speaker to say with a straight face. Probably for this reason, Hither Pomerania is not a term that is widely used: the commonly accepted English version of Vorpommern, as used by the lander and others, is Western Pomerania. While I appreciate that use of this name would cause disambiguation problems, it is still what this page should be called.--Stonemad GB 11:33, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Name prior 1990

I commented out the following sentence as it is wrong:

The postwar Land was reconstituted as Mecklenburg-Vorpommern prior to German reunification in 1990.


In fact the historic names and borders of the states weren't used in East Germany. Instead East Germany was divided into countys (1952-1990; Bezirk) with that part of Vorpommern belonging to "Bezirk Neubrandenburg" and "Bezirk Schwerin". However after 1990 the Land was reconstituted as Mecklenburg-Vorpommern --Splette :) How's my driving? 03:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't wrong at all. Mecklenburg, like the other postwar Länder in East Germany, was indeed abolished in 1952, replaced by Bezirke, and then reconstituted in 1990, with minor border adjustments and the readdition of "Vorpommern" to the name. "Postwar" does not imply that these states were always in existence after the war, and the article did refer to the Bezirke replacing Mecklenburg. I've re-added the sentence with a couple of changes; while the state was indeed reconstituted prior to German reunification, it became a legal entity on that day, so I changed the preposition to "upon".  ProhibitOnions  (T) 04:25, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Ahh perfect. I now understand how the sentence was meant. Its clearer now. Thanks --Splette :) How's my driving? 04:40, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Glad to help. Cheers,  ProhibitOnions  (T) 14:47, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Vorpommern

Looking at google (English!) resulst and using common sense, there should no doubt the article can't stay under "Hither Pomerania". It is odd and, to say the least, nonsense. Vorpommern should be used instead, in my view. Please also look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mecklenburg-Western_Pomerania for further arguments. Smaller countries, e.g. Denmark, Estonia, Sweden, etc. didn't bother to translate Vorpommern at all, but rather used the German version instead. Bearing in mind that there is no ideal English translation of "Vor" why not follow their lead. Likedeeler 18:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the discussion about Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (see here: Talk:Mecklenburg-Vorpommern#Requested_move, I think it would be good to move this article to Vorpommern. Likedeeler 16:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I have been working on a rewrite and thought about that, but honestly, this article has a different slant from the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern one, which is primarily about a contemporary place. The history of Pomerania is not hugely important to understanding MVP. This article is primarily a historical article about a place that has been the subject of five centuríes of warfare and is part of a continuum with Wikipedia's Pomerania, Farther Pomerania and Swedish Pomerania articles. There is a context in this article, a pattern of longtime use, of anglicizing all these placenames to make them more comprehensible, and I think that should stay. I'm not 100-per-cent convinced about "Hither", but I don't think imposing "Vorpommern" is appropriate here. So if you don't mind, I'm reverting that part of your changes until we have a wider consensus about what to have as a headword. Tacitus 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the entity described here is the region that is part of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern today. I believe all historical questions should be moved to Pomerania. The place may have been the place of many wars, but so have many other places. Now it is German and forms one of two parts of the state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern. There are many current issues like geographical (islands, tourism), economic, cultural (useums, university of Greifswald, hanseatic architecture) features that I would consider more important for people today. I think there should simply be links to Pomerania and Swedish Pomerania in the "history" section and the connections with those as well as the common history should, of course, also be mentioned. But Vorpommern is a contemporary region, a geographical entity defined by its borders to Mecklenburg, Brandenburg and Poland. Don't know if all that makes sense, but I still think the name should be Vorpommern. Moreover, I think "Hither Pomerania" is by far the worst option :-). The numbers also say that "Vorpommern" is most frequently used, that "West(ern) Pomerania" is also widely used but that "Hither Pomerania" is not the most desirable name. Likedeeler 14:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but for us native English-speakers, Pomerania and its transmutations are a familiar term and Vorpommern is a foreign word. It's like asking us to talk about Bavaria in English using the word "Bayern". I agreed to calling the post-1990 state Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, because Pomeranian identity is of small importance in the contexts where Wikipedia treats the state of MVP, and English, like any other language, chooses synonyms according to context and can absorb new synonyms.

However Pomeranian identity is a central issue in describing yesterday's and today's West Pomerania(s). An English-speaker otherwise ignorant of Germany would come to this article with some inkling that Pomerania is a European region, an overlay (or underlay) to the current borders. You might say we have a concept of "Pomeranian-ness" and the first thing the reader wants to know is: how is this Pomerania different from the other Pomeranias? Each of the European languages has its own word for Pomerania and these sub-Pomeranias along the Baltic coast. We can learn new words (like Mecklenburg-Vorpommern) but we would be resistant to being told that we mustn't call Pomerania proper by what we consider to be its proper name.

Contributors to the Wikipedia Germany Project have sensitized us to the idea that when we focus on German topics with a historical perspective to them, we should use traditional placenames, and I think that consensus has to be accepted.

As for the Hither/Western issue, the numbers are only indicative and certainly don't tell us what is desirable. We need to consider which native English-speaking authors authoritative on German matters use the different terms. Here is the start of a poll (additions requested from other Wikipedians):

  • Western Pomerania is the term used by:
    • Richard Bryan Smith, the Liverpool travel writer, in his 1827 book Notes made during a tour in Denmark, Holstein [&c.]
    • James D. Haas in his 1852 translation of Friedrich Kohlrausch's History of Germany
    • William Russell in his 1837 History of Modern Europe
  • Hither Pomerania is the term used in:
    • Encyclopædia Americana (eds. Francis Lieber, Edward Wigglesworth, Thomas Gamaliel Bradford) of 1832
    • the Richard Brookes and John Marshall New Universal Gazetteer of 1832
    • the 1732 General Collection of Treatys (volume II) translation of the Peace of Münster: ...All the hither Pomerania, commonly call'd Vor-Pommeren, together with the Isle of Rugen, included in the Limits wherein they were bounded under the last Dukes of Pomerania....
  • Upper Pomerania is found in:
    • the Guarantee of England of 1719 regarding the Duchy of Stettin and of Upper Pomerania (document in National Archives, Kew)

Tacitus 21:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

That's kind of what I meant. I have no problem with using traditional names for historical articles and I think there's no problem in using them at all when you are talking about the history of Pomerania. However, this "Vorpommern" is one of two regions of a state now. This is the distinction that I would like to make between the current eastern part of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and the historic region of Pomerania (and its subdivisions). This is why a google search can be helpful for today's geographical/political unit at the same time as quotes from the 18th and 19th (!!) century can be for a historic region. I'm not even sure if there is a Pomeranian cross-border identity nowadays. Most post-war Polish people who moved there after 1945 came from all parts of Poland, many from what is today Ukraine. They certainly have a very different culture than the Germans who used to live there and the Germans that live in Vorpommern today. This is the difference I meant. Pre-war / historic region vs. today's political/geographical regions like "Vorpommern" or the Polish Vojvodship "Western Pomerania" (which, ironically is east of the German "Western Pomerania"/"Vorpommern"). But I think I give up in this case, because there is more important work on wikipedia to be done than moving articles. But I still think, the article should be named "Western Pomerania" (or Vorpommern of course... :-)). Bavaria is not divided among two nations and no part of Bavaria is part of a newly created state. Likedeeler 21:33, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was move to Western Pomerania. DrKiernan (talk) 11:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it's time to move this article back to the most sensible name (Vorpommern). The arguments are pretty well set out in the earlier discussions above. Basically:

  • "Hither Pomerania" is an archaic term not used nowadays and probably not even comprehensible to most English speakers;
  • "West(ern) Pomerania" would be better, but would lead to ambiguity, since Vorpommern is not necessarily equal to all of the western part of historical Pomerania; and Poland has a province called West Pomeranian Voivodeship;
  • In the absence of a suitable English term, the German name "Vorpommern" (also widely used in English sources) seems the best option.

--Kotniski (talk) 09:40, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree a move should be made; according to WP:UE we should follow majority English usage yet the title is in distinctly minor use. As to which title to move to - I'd like to see a bit of evidence, but I've seen Vorpommern in fairly wide use in English texts and Western Pomerania in some use (certainly I've seen either far more than Hither (see evidence below) - it suspect this is an archaism now). Knepflerle (talk) 13:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose. Both halves of Hither Pomerania are at least English, and as such, more comprehensible to a general readership than Vorpommern. We are intended for lay readers, and not for specialists; in this context, reading German is a specialization. I agree with using Vorpommern for the recently erected Land; but the ancient region should be called what it was, and retrospectively still is, called in English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
      • We should not create "English" usage by using things which "look English" but used in a way few/no English people do - we copy what English-speaking people do (because what is more English than that?) - and not many English-speakers use Hither Pomerania.see evidence below
        • Knepferle has the principle right, but the evidence wrong. Hither Pomerania is the usage of the 1911 Britannica, for example (scanned here); it continued to be the standard term in historic usage, although Pomerania itself became a historic term after 1945. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
      • Is Regensburg more difficult than, say, Magdeburg for English people to understand seeing as both are used in English? The fact that an archaic exonym (Ratisbon) exists for Regensburg doesn't make it more "German" and incomprehensible than Magdeburg. So seeing as Vorpommern is also used in English and likely to be encountered by English speakers, why is that more difficult to read than Magdeburg?
      • I don't need to read Hungarian to read the article on Hódmezővásárhely. I don't need to read German to read an article containing Vorpommern. This common chestnut needs putting out of its misery now.
      • "the ancient region should be called what it was, and retrospectively still is, called in English" - this makes it sound as if there has been a single name used in all English documents throughout time. Even in quite old documents we see Western Pomerania, Vorpommern and Upper Pomerania too - just because an "English" name exists, there is no reason to assume it's unique or the best, or that the indigenous name is never used either.
      • From reading around, I'm beginning to feel that Western Pomerania is both most common and most descriptive to English speakers. Knepflerle (talk) 12:07, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose Weak Oppose; it offers no improvement that I can see; "Vorpommern" has its own ambiguity problems, in German and in English. I suspect that it isn't so much that "Hither Pomerania" has fallen out of use, but rather merely that this is a historical region that doesn't get discussed that much any more, and there is little occasion to need to distinguish one part of "Pomerania" from another, in addition to being pretty much coextensive with the region called "Swedish Pomerania" (Wikipedia's article is about an area, with an unclear geographical relationship to the subject of this article, in the 17th to the 19th centuries, but others might use the term with slightly different meanigns or include different times) and other names. If it were changed, I'd prefer "Western Pomerania" over "Vorpommern". We don't let the fact that Poland also has a voivodship called "Pomerania" (bordering their "West Pomerania" on the east) keep us from using "Pomerania" for the whole region, do we? So why is it any more of a problem when it comes to "Western Pomerania"? Even in the case of the modern German Land, despite the articles claim that "In the English name of the post-1990 state of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the German form Vorpommern is usually left untranslated", Google has over 200,000 hits for the exact phrase "Mecklenburg Western Pomerania", over 60,000 for "Mecklenburg West Pomerania", 40,000 for "Mecklenburg Pomerania" (many using that as the name of the modern Land) and 72 for "Mecklenburg Hither Pomerania" and 86 for "Mecklenburg W. Pomerania". And that's not even getting into what "Upper Pomerania" (synonymous with "Vorpommern" in the "Swedish Pomerania article) and "Lower Pomerania" (same as Farther Pomerania or Hinterpommern?) mean. (Google has 16 hits for "Mecklenburg Upper Pomerania").
Granted, the word "hinter" is little used any more in any context, and many people don't even known what it means. But by the same token, the only thing most people associate "Pomerania" with are the Pomeranians they or their friends have as pets. Gene Nygaard (talk) 23:45, 9 April 2008 (UTC) amended 16:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Would you support a move to Western Pomerania? Knepflerle (talk) 12:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • For what little it's worth, Support, as PMAnderson will be unsurprised to hear. If Vorpommern is too ambiguous for the new title here, is it acceptable to start a different article on Vorpommern? Or are we taking general ambiguity natural with territorial names? "Hither Pomerania" is a monstrosity, and it's not like Vorpommern is hard to pronounce. It's the main English word for the territory, so just pronounced it as it's spelled, or at most change V to F. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 00:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • (Nominator's comment) I don't have any major objection to Western Pomerania, if it turns out to be in wide use. But I strongly oppose leaving it under the name "Hither Pomerania", which never seems to have been commonly used, and I guess is not understandable to 99% of English speakers ("hither", particularly in this sense, is very much an archaism).--Kotniski (talk) 15:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Western Pomerania, although unidiomatic, would be acceptable, per this Google Scholar search, which shows it is more common than Vorpommern (most of these hits are typos of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern), when we take steps to ensure that we are looking for English hits and avoiding the modern Land (for which Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania would also be acceptable, like Lower Saxony). But I still think we ought to answer the question: "what is this Hither Pomerania I see in this book?". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
...especially in light of the similar search for Hither Pomerania - clearly Western is preferable over Hither by WP:UE, prevalent usage is clear (at least, far more clear than other cases where page-move decisions have been made). But more importantly, there is nothing to stop us answering the question prominently in the article you ask even if we move the title - looks like Upper Pomerania should get a mention too. Knepflerle (talk) 12:14, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Knepflerle (Who should also make clearer his support for either Vorpommern or Western Pomerania) asked me to comment on a move to Western Pomerania instead. I like it better than "Vorpommern"; maybe a bit better than "Hinter Pomerania" as well, but I'm not convinced there is reason enough for making any change from that. I'd say any of those three, just making sure the various names are discussed in the article and redirects or disambiguation page links exist. Probably "Western" rather than "West", mostly because of the Polish subdivision more often being called West rather than Western. I don't have strong feelings about it, but tried to get some more things into the discussion. Unless we're missing something else; any of those would be better than "Near(er) Pomerania" or "Fore Pomerania" or "Forepomerania" or "Front Pomerania" or "Upper Pomerania". I'll change it to a weak oppose for now; might not support a change but could remove any opposition.
  • The other option would seem to be to merge this into the general article for the historical Pomerania, and clean up the various disambiguation and redirect pages appropriately. I suppose that would depend in part on how much overlap there is now, as well as how much distinction really needs to be made in historical contexts, something I'm certainly not an expert on. Gene Nygaard (talk) 16:33, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Not opposed to Western Pomerania — slap in the face with a fish versus poke in the eye with a stick thing again — but would prefer Vorpommern. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • For clarity - I believe the article should be moved to either Western Pomerania or Vorpommern, per the evidence above. I don't mind to which - either is a distinct improvement.
(To answer Gene in the style of Deacon - for me Hither is a slap in the face with a trout caught in English rivers but rather past its date; Western Pomerania is a plate of crisp battered cod, reminiscent of wider European seas but with a residual Englishness; Vorpommern is the authentic tang of mackerel in oil, Baltic in origin but still common and pleasing enough to the English palate). Knepflerle (talk) 17:15, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose to Vorpommer, this is English Wiki not German one, we shouldn't use German names, especially as it is also part of Poland.--Molobo (talk) 23:36, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Vorpommern is Polish? Are you sure? You should explain that.(217.184.150.92 (talk) 10:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC))
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Disambiguation

During disambiguation exercise I was unable to cope with Stolpe and Scandinavian settlements. Somebody with knowledge of subject could do that. --Ruziklan (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

POV in Duchy of Pomerania (1121/81-1637) and Principality of Rügen (1168-1325)

This section seems to be written so as to purposefully omit any mention of Boleslaw Wrymouth's conquest of the area in 1121 - it pretends it was Wartislaw who did it - or his role in initiating the missions of Otto of Bamberg - again it pretends that Wartislaw did this. The section is hence very POV.

When I have a bit more time I'll rewrite it but for now it needs to be tagged appropriately.Volunteer Marek 17:48, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Nazi atrocities

History section lacks information about Nazi atrocities in the region. This should be rectified. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

The title...

...is misleading. This is only one meaning of this term. And it's hard to say whether this is the more important. Consider moving this article to Vorpommern, Hither Pomerania or Cispomerania, with the Western Pomerania disambiguating. Propositum (talk) 11:44, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

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