Bogleheads.org

I've noticed that there's a wide price range when it comes to food ingredients, appliances, cookware, etc. Some of these things might make a big difference in the quality of the food you make and some may not be worth it. When it comes to cooking, where is it worth paying up?

For example, maybe it makes a huge difference where you buy your steak, but it doesn't matter if you buy cheap spices. Or maybe getting really top notch pots and pans makes a big difference. Or buying really fresh produce matters for making salads but makes no difference if you're going to be grilling vegetables.

What trade-offs do Bogleheads see, and where is our money best spent?

You might want to consider this approach, which I've seen suggested for buying tools:
- at first, buy cheap. If cheap doesn't work out, or you find you're using it all the time, buy expensive.

We tend to not use/consume a lot of anything. A typical portion of protein for dinner would be 3-4 ounces. So, especially when it comes to meat and seafood we do not skimp at all.

Oh boy. You opened up a can of worms here.
"Cheap spices"
Cheap cookware verses the expensive stuff.
Worth paying? Thats a budget thing and a diet thing.
Portion size already addressed. Soon will be the I buy one Costco chicken and it last me a week of meals.

Let the games begin.

I will say that I like my George Foreman grill.

Shallowpockets wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:45 pm one Costco chicken and it last me a week of meals.

We extract a lot from a single chicken. Key is a good set of shears and good sharp knife for breaking it down.

If you only care about calories and nutrition, then one can really skimp and pay practically nothing to feed yourself. Use your savings to go out occasionally to eat at restaurants that you like instead.

JDave wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:36 pm You might want to consider this approach, which I've seen suggested for buying tools:
- at first, buy cheap. If cheap doesn't work out, or you find you're using it all the time, buy expensive.

This is my philosophy for pretty much all consumer purchases. It is rare when we ditch the cheapest option and buy "up", especially in regards to food. Although we are borderline obsessive about health, we aren't "foodies" and I genuinely can't think of a single food-related item where we pay more than is necessary.

stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:58 pm

JDave wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:36 pm You might want to consider this approach, which I've seen suggested for buying tools:
- at first, buy cheap. If cheap doesn't work out, or you find you're using it all the time, buy expensive.

This is my philosophy for pretty much all consumer purchases. It is rare when we ditch the cheapest option and buy "up".

I'm the opposite but I am not a big consumer. I don't want to have to scrap something that doesn't do what I want and/or last a long time and have to go through the process of getting a replacement. Buying a car, for example, is a pain. Buying clothes now is nearly impossible; there are few places you can actually go and try on clothes.

I care much more about the quality, taste and healthiness of the ingredients than about pots and pans brand names. I like T-Fal and you can get a whole set for $89. I like Williams Sonoma a lot and I would never turn down a gift of a le Creuset or fancy flatware, but they are way above my price point. Besides which tag sales often have very fine bone china where we go.

Rao’s arrabbiata sauce is always worth it but W has it for $6.50 sometimes. I’ve bought Lurpak imported butter and sel de guerande sea salt and consider them worth it. Lundberg’s organic sprouted brown basmati rice is worth it. I buy imported hard core whole grain 0 sugar bread (to offset the ice cream and jams below). Organic valley dairy seems worth it as do free range eggs, but I won’t fight over it. Good quality ice cream without fillers or artificial ingredients is worth it - such as Haagen Dazs Bourbon Vanilla Bean Truffle Ice Cream. Briermere Farms blackberry and peach jams and apple butter (available online) are obviously worth $13 for large jars, shipped, no matter what my dad thinks. Bottled water is worth it to me because of a health condition. Nong Shim ramen is worth it to me over Nissin and other brands. Overall I don’t skimp on health, but I don’t think I overpay either. Manhattan Farmers markets or other obvious rip offs I generally don’t indulge in. I don’t do the high end coffees since I found Pilon, but when out if they have La Colombe I’ll take it.

We don’t do many gadgets: no instapot, nutribullet, slow cooker, apple corer, salad spinner, pressure cooker, microwave or even an espresso maker. We have a toaster, a mini oven and a blender.

We like Aldi, Lidl, Westerly Health, Walmart and regional specialty grocers. Occasionally Trader Joe’s and Whole Foods.

I think the food itself is where it's worth spending more. After you cook for a while, you'll learn which products are worth buying name brand and which are indistinguishable from generic.

My stuff tastes exactly the same whether I use my $20 pot from my broke student days or my $150 fancy pot that was gifted to me. I actually prefer the cheap pot because it heats up faster and weighs less than half.

From my own limited personal anecdotal experience, the people who buy expensive cookware and appliances are the ones who, in the long term, are the least likely to do a significant amount of cooking. For someone who really enjoys cooking, you can make a lot of great food with very few inexpensive tools.

Worth paying for: cooking whole foods at home. A decent knife (~$100) and simple cook set (<$1,000). Decent ingredients, especially cheese and meat.
Skimp on: High end equipment. High end ingredients. Gadgets. Glossy cookbooks.

This does not directly answer your question, but one thing that has dramatically changed my cooking and attitude toward food economy is making my own vegetable broth (and sometimes chicken broth). I keep a gallon bag in the freezer where I put the ends of onions/carrots/celery that I chop off, parsley stems, chicken bones etc., then just throw that in the crock pot with some water when it fills up every couple of weeks. The broth it makes is great and really ups the quality of recipes at home. But the real change for me has been helping me reduce food waste pretty dramatically. I normally find that I have trouble using all of the carrots or celery that I purchase (say for a recipe that only calls for one carrot, but you have to buy a one-pound bag). No problem -- into the broth bag! Store sells 10 oz containers of mushrooms but your recipe calls for 6 oz? Not an issue. Those weird little garlic cloves that aren't worth chopping? Into the bag. It really helps you get more value from your food, and of course makes delicious food as well. (There are plenty of things you don't want to add, like most leafy greens and cruciferous veggies, but that's ok!)

Aside from that, a decent dutch oven (does not have to be Le Cruset quality!), a good knife that you hone (not sharpen) regularly, and some cast-iron pans go a long way.

Following this with interest.

In terms of kitchen gadgets, I think there are a few things where buying "nicer" improves quality of life significantly. Of course, like most things the marginal utility of additional dollars is not linear - i.e. its worth it to spend $20 versus buy at the dollar store, but the $150 brand-name version is not necessarily different from the $20.

Things I'm glad we have:
- A "decent" set of kitchen knives (meaning we spent a couple hundred, not a couple thousand).
- Good food processor
- Unique gadgets that open new cooking options - e.g. slow cooker, air fryer, etc. You don't need a fancy version of these, but having "a" version is worth it if you are into cooking.

My general rules for food itself:
- Anything that comes in a can or jar, what you spend seems largely irrelevant. Our canned good consumption is limited though, its really just chickpeas, black beans and diced tomatoes. Very occasionally buy premade pasta/pizza sauce when I don't want to make it myself. That one is actually worth paying more for
- Rice, etc. if anything the cheaper bulk versions from CostCo or Asian grocers actually seem better than expensive versions
- Meat we generally get from CostCo. Its not the cheapest, but the dollar/quality ratio seems the best. Not everyone will agree, but I can taste the difference between CostCo meat and run-of-the-mill grocers. We don't eat tons of it, so its worth it for us.
- Produce we will also marginally more for. We don't go for organic per se, but the difference between high and low quality produce is readily apparent to me and there seems a loose correlation with price.
- In general, I try to eat healthy food. This generally means paying more for things like cereal, granola, etc. if you are buying prepackaged stuff. This is more a matter of the type of food I try to buy. Basically, I'm shopping based on nutrition labels and (within reason) ignoring price.

jebmke wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:03 pm

stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:58 pm

JDave wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:36 pm You might want to consider this approach, which I've seen suggested for buying tools:
- at first, buy cheap. If cheap doesn't work out, or you find you're using it all the time, buy expensive.

This is my philosophy for pretty much all consumer purchases. It is rare when we ditch the cheapest option and buy "up".

I'm the opposite but I am not a big consumer. I don't want to have to scrap something that doesn't do what I want and/or last a long time and have to go through the process of getting a replacement. Buying a car, for example, is a pain. Buying clothes now is nearly impossible; there are few places you can actually go and try on clothes.

I guess it must be different where you live. We just did the next school year shopping for our kids, I haven't come across any clothing store where trying something on wasn't an option.

I cook a *lot* and usually my rule of thumb is that quality tools/gear are worth paying for if it's something that one does all the time, but not if it's only rarely used. With cooking, however, I honestly can't find a strong correlation between cost and outcomes, with the possible exception of the stand mixer (ours is a over decade old and probably gets used twice a week on average) and good knives (although we have a chef's knife from IKEA that was $4 and is surprisingly good.) My suspicion is that high-end cookware is mostly about looks/branding and there's not a lot of correlation between cost and usefulness.

We pay more for high quality beef from a local ranch but most everything else is technique. Frozen vegetables over fresh (outside of salads) is frugal and healthier, too.

Related to good quality food is where you buy it. We have Harris Teeter stores here and drive right past Publix which is twice as close. The produce is outstanding, and although the prices are a little higher, it's worth it.

Ribeyes and pork ribs at Costco.

stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 4:39 pm I guess it must be different where you live. We just did the next school year shopping for our kids, I haven't come across any clothing store where trying something on wasn't an option.

Especially given the pandemic, I think lots of people just buy online and returned whatever styles or sizes aren't wanted.

I don't have any set rules for where I "skimp"... well, other than if I'm cooking for just myself the less expensive or off brand thing that I LIKE is generally not acceptable when serving to guests. For example: apparently people can taste the difference between Hillmans and Kraft Mayo. I can not. I have lots of other examples of this but you get the idea. If I am having a party or a get together - I will buy brand name or high end ingredients (that are popular in my area) when preparing my recipes. I don't feel like I'm skimping on my everyday for me foods (I like the way what I have prepared/am eating tastes/texture) In the past, I realized that there was an awkwardness or an "oppps this doesn't taste right" response when the food was served to other people for a special occassion and it didn't taste/present right to them. (some store brands/off brands have subtle differences in coloring or shapes than the "real thing" )

That said, I tend to try to get the best value for the $$ I am spending. Since I only need a couple of "prep/chef" type knives - I just bought what I needed - not a whole set. Same with pots and pans - I have Aldi Cofton covered sauce pans next to All Clad pots/pans.

(I'm ok with imperfect looking fruit and veggies. I'm ok with most house brand spices - especially the single spice routine ones - thyme leaves or not fake vanilla or iodinized table salt. I read what's in spice blends like Poultry seasoning (although I've started mixing my own cause I have the base spices on hand) I don't have many spice blends at home (other than Poultry seasoning and pumpkin pie spice mix and Curry powder) )

For foods - if it's for me - I buy what tastes/texture I'm ok with - usually a house brand - I have little brand loyalty (since the brands keep CHANGING their product!!! why would I buy a product that no longer does what I need it to do?)

I read the nutritional parts of labels and generally ignore the splashy verbage that tells me why something is good for me (the All Natural! for example. My response is yeah, squirrel poop is all natural too but nobody is eating it. )

The difference between good thick pans and a cheap set from anywhere home items are sold is night and day. Same with kitchen knives, cutting boards, ect. You can go cheap, sure...but it'll make cooking well that much more difficult. I didn't break the bank on my kitchen kit, but I didn't squirm at paying a more for quality items I'm still using today to make cooking easier and more enjoyable.

Cuts of meat are going to vary by region. I'm happy with what my local grocery store has almost all of the time (shortages notwithstanding), but on occasion for something different I hit up a farmers market or butcher.

I'm a firm believer that knowledge/technique are the biggest determinate for whether a dish is good/great.

That being said, a few things I have observed:

-Obviously there are big differences between most fresh veggies vs. canned vs. frozen. I do use canned tomatoes (which I know are a fruit) but not really any other canned fruit/veggie. I don't really care if anything is organic, air dried, grass fed, etc. I'm not saying there is no difference, but I don't think it is worth it in the final dish. Prime cuts of beef there is a noticeable difference, but the price difference is big.

-Buy the good Parmigiano Reggiano that has been aged (or Pecorino Romano). It is expensive but has so much more flavor so you can use less than the cheap stuff. I buy them at Costco. There are some other cheeses where the difference in flavor/taste/texture between cheap and more expensive is huge.

-I have some Le Creuset enameled cast iron pots I've had for 10+ years and are in perfect condition. They are the gold standard. I tried 2 or 3 other brands that were cheaper and none lasted. I have a recent addition by Lodge...we'll see if it holds up.

-I've had good luck with multiple brands of tri-ply cookware. The pan should feel sturdy/heavy. Don't buy anything with a base glued to the bottom of a pot. Food will burn/stick on the lower sides where it meets the base. I have a few All Clad which is sort of the gold standard of triply pans, but my other ones work just as well IMO.

-Fresh herbs, which can be expensive if you don't grow your own, really can elevate a dish, salad, etc.

-I don't think you need expensive knives, but you do need to keep them sharp for effective cutting/chopping.

What I'm about to write is quite long. I've been cooking for myself for 15 years, and I have learned a lot in that time. I've spent money on things I never use and spent too little on things I eventually upgraded. I think it's important to recognize that if your tools make cooking more work than it needs to be, that is likely to make you cook less. So spending more money for the things where that money actually does improve the experience of cooking will pay off in the long run as you find yourself enjoying cooking rather than dreading it. If you're going from zero-to-full-kitchen in one go, this will seem like a lot of up-front costs, but it's important to remember that a huge percentage of these costs are one-time-only (and that feels very Bogleheads to me). You can also mitigate that by only buying the things you need as you need them.

The golden rule for cookware is don't buy sets. Don't buy sets of pots and pans, don't buy knife sets. You will pay extra for items you don't need, and you could have put that same money toward buying better versions of the items you do need.

A good cast iron skillet, enameled dutch oven, and 3-ply stainless steel (aluminum core) pans will last several lifetimes. For these specific items, investing more up-front, if you can afford it, will give you better-quality cookware and a more pleasurable cooking experience for the rest of your life. Personally, I think that's worth a few hundred extra dollars when thinking about the long-term. A good knife will not last you a lifetime, but it will last you at least a decade if you take care of it, and it will be the single most-used item in your kitchen.

I have cooked with both Lodge and Le Creuset dutch ovens. There are many who will argue that the budget option is the way to go, but I disagree. The Lodge is adequate, the Le Creuset is astronomically better. Le Creuset's offering has thinner metal, making it lighter and more responsive when you change the heat on the burner, but not so thin that you lose the benefits of cast iron. With many luxury items, you get diminishing marginal returns as you go up in price. In my experience, the Le Creuset is one of the rare luxury items whose improved performance justifies the price. It is my most used pan by a large margin. And again, it will outlast you. If you can only splurge on one item, this is it.

I have also cooked with Lodge, vintage, and new-manufacture vintage-style cast iron pans. The difference between Lodge's standard offering and the good stuff is also noticeable, but I don't think it's as significant as with the dutch ovens. Fortunately, the difference in cost between Lodge's standard and various manufacturers' vintage-style pans is much less than with the dutch ovens. You used to have to pay through the nose to get a real vintage pan in this style, but now you can buy new-manufacture pans for a much more reasonable price. I prefer the vintage-style for the same reason I prefer the Le Creuset dutch oven: the metal is thinner, making it lighter and more responsive, while still giving you the advantageous properties of cast iron. The vintage-style pans also have a smooth surface, which improves their nonstick properties. If you can afford it, the upgrade is worth it. There are a number of options, and Serious Eats has a thorough review of current offerings so you can find one that fits your specifications and cost preference. I personally have the Field Co., which I love, but it is on the higher end of the price spectrum. I would not be shocked if some of the cheaper options were just as nice to use.

As for 3-ply cookware, All-Clad is the gold standard. I believe their patent has expired, so there are a number of competitors at lower price points. Once again, Serious Eats has you covered. A skillet or "fry pan" is definitely worth getting in a 3-ply variety. It can be worth having one versatile-sized saucepan or saucier in 3-ply, 3 quarts is a nice versatile size and the saucier is a more versatile shape than a straight-sided saucepan (I'll discuss saucepans further down). If you want a saute pan, this would also be worth getting in 3-ply. The stainless steel outer layers are ideal for food contact and are easy to clean (they're dishwasher safe and can safely be scrubbed with steel wool if you burn food onto them). The aluminum core allows the pan to heat evenly, as stainless steel doesn't by itself, but aluminum is an excellent thermal conductor. So you want 3-ply construction for pans that are going to do most of their cooking by direct contact with food (conduction), rather than with liquid doing the heat transfer (convection).

If you're realllllllly trying to save money, the dutch oven can do everything the cast iron skillet and the 3-ply skillet can do, including searing meats. But it can't do two things at once, so either get really comfortable with one-pot meals (I love them, less cleanup!), or get at least one of the two types of skillets.

For knives, you really only need three or four:

• a chef's knife, either western- or santoku-style, whichever you like better

• a paring knife

• a serrated bread knife (which is useful for anything with a tough exterior and soft interior, like tomatoes and citrus)

• optionally a carving knife, if you expect to cook roasts that are bigger than your chef's knife

Only one of these four is worth paying a lot for, and that's the chef's knife. As I said in my first paragraph, it will be the single piece of cookware you use the most, so you want it to be comfortable and enjoyable to use. Paying more for a quality knife will also get you a knife that holds its edge longer, meaning you can hone or sharpen it once before dinner prep and most likely won't need to do so again for the same meal. Be aware, though, that there are a lot of overpriced knives that look like quality knives but are poor quality upsells to uneducated buyers. A trusted buying guide, like Serious Eats, once again, is very important here.

It's important to note that knives are quite personal, so take any specific recommendations with a grain of salt, but it is absolutely worth paying for a quality German or Japanese steel forged knife with a full bolster. The full bolster increases the weight, allowing the knife to do more of the cutting work and your arms to do less. The full bolster also brings the balance point of the knife closer to your hand, making the tip easier to control, which is important for safety, and as your knife skills improve, speed. If you can, go to a cookware store and ask to try their knives. The Wusthof chef's knife is a good knife for most people, and is a good starting point to make price-to-quality comparisons. It's what I have and it's great for me.

Of course, paying for a good chef's knife is useless if you don't keep it sharp. You can go nuts and get a honing steel and whetstones (which some people enjoy as a hobby in itself), you can get a pricey but very good electric sharpener, or you can get an inexpensive pull-through manual sharpener. Regardless, spend a few minutes reading a guide to keeping your knife sharp to find the tools that feel like the right cost and time investment to you, and make sure you hone (or sharpen, when needed) your knife before every prep session. Honing only takes about a minute, so it's a small time investment to make your big money investment in your chef's knife pay off to the fullest.

Serious Eats of course has guides to the other types of recommended knives, I won't rehash what they say here.

This should be common sense, but I've seen enough people who should know better make this mistake so I'm putting it in here just in case you need to hear it: do not put your knives in the dishwasher. One cycle will dull the blade and you will need to properly resharpen it from scratch to make it cut well. If you're really tired, better to leave your stainless steel knife in the sink overnight and wash it in the morning than to ruin it. Make sure any well-meaning guests or family members who help clean up don't put your knives in the dishwasher either.

One other investment worth making is a quality end-grain wood cutting board. This type of cutting board will dull your knives the least, making that investment in a good chef's knife last longer (very Bogleheads!). Contrary to popular belief, they are perfectly sanitary (as long as you hand wash them, no dishwasher for anything made out of wood), and the only maintenance they really need is an occasional coat of food-grade mineral oil. Avoid bamboo cutting boards, as those are made with resin binders that are as harder than most plastics used for cutting boards, so they dull your blades quite quickly. If you don't want to shell out for a nice cutting board, I've been using the Oxo plastic ones with the silicone feet to reduce slipping and they are perfectly fine (and dishwasher safe!).

You're also going to need some saucepans. You can probably get away with a smallish one and a largeish one. For the small one, you want something with a narrow bottom but tall sides, so you can cook small amounts of things (like melting some butter) without it evaporating dry, or larger amounts up to the full capacity of the pot. 2 to 3 quarts is ideal for the small one. If you do get a 3-ply 3-quart saucier, I still recommend getting a 2-3 quart straight-sided saucepan (I don't have one and often find myself wishing that I did). For the largeish one, something big enough to cook spaghetti in is good. You can make all your pasta in the dutch oven, but I often find myself wishing I had a saucepan bigger than 3 quarts but smaller than my 7-quart dutch oven, and for all kinds of things, not just pasta. Since almost all of the cooking you'll be doing in these is with liquids, you don't care about whether this pan heats evenly or has hotspots, so there's no need to pay for 3-ply construction. This is a great place to save money: buy the cheapest stainless steel pots with decent construction that fit your needs. They might not last multiple lifetimes, but they'll likely last one.

If you want a nonstick skillet or two, the newer ceramic coated pans are vastly superior than teflon. They're also very competitive in price, and you won't need to replace them with anywhere close to the frequency that you need to replace teflon-coated pans. I truly wouldn't be surprised if my cheapo ceramic pans from Costco outlive me.

There are other kitchen essentials, like aluminum sheet pans, measuring cups and spoons, and vegetable peelers, but they are mostly less expensive and there isn't much of a range of prices to choose from. Read some reviews, get something good for the best price you can find, and let it last as long as it lasts before needing replacement.

A great way to save money, especially on things that don't need to be brand name, like the saucepans and the sheet pans, is to pick them up at a restaurant supply store.

One last tip: if you ever find yourself wondering "will I use this?" when considering a purchase, assume the answer is "no." Don't buy it until you need it. And that goes both for everything I've recommended in this post (except the chef's knife and the dutch oven, you need those) and anything else you might find as you stock your kitchen.

Regarding cookware. I went with the Cuisinart Multiclad Pro set like 14 years ago, and it will last me the rest of my life. It's stainless-aluminum-stainless clad (like all-clad). Back then I think I paid $220 for it.

The only non-stick pans I buy are 10 and 12 inch fry pans. For eggs, bacon and frying riced cauliflower etc.. I usually pay $15-25 for a restaurant style non-stick pan.

As far as knives for cooking you only really need 3: 8" chef's knife, pearing knife and boning knife. I bought German steal ones for $15 or less 14 years ago and still using them. The ones I use are Victorinox, back before they became pricey.. you can get other German Steel brands now for the prices I paid back then. (I also have a couple inexpensive sharpening stones to keep an edge on these.)

Cheap spices are perfect. I heard all the ones sold at Aldi are actually repackaged McCormick. You get large qty in bottle for $1.00 each. For other spices head to Wholefoods Market, Sprouts or the like, and buy them by the oz from bulk bins. Often baggies of them only cost 50 cents per baggy.

We eat pork products here more than beef. Pork Butt is $1.48/lb by the case and Boneless Whole Pork Loins are $1.78 by the case.. both from Sam's Club. The Pork Butt can be chopped up into chunks and used as stew meat. It can also be ground up for meatloaf's and sausage etc.. Pork loin can be thinly sliced for jerky or say for meat in a pho-like asain soup etc. Pork loin can also be cut into chops your desired thickness. We buy our ground beef at Aldi.

R2D2 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:27 pm I've noticed that there's a wide price range when it comes to food ingredients, appliances, cookware, etc. Some of these things might make a big difference in the quality of the food you make and some may not be worth it. When it comes to cooking, where is it worth paying up?

For example, maybe it makes a huge difference where you buy your steak, but it doesn't matter if you buy cheap spices. Or maybe getting really top notch pots and pans makes a big difference. Or buying really fresh produce matters for making salads but makes no difference if you're going to be grilling vegetables.

What trade-offs do Bogleheads see, and where is our money best spent?

I will say none of the above and here is why. We went down the route of better cookware, better appliances, better ingredients. By far, the best results we ever attained were by understanding the science of cooking food. What makes a "cheap" piece of meat cheap and why you need to cook it differently than say a filet mignon? What happens to the actual ingredient during the entire cooking process? Why does two ingredients react one way in one use but a different way with another use?

So before investing in cookware, appliances or expensive ingredients, I would say your money is better spent learning how to cook and the science that goes into cooking. If that is unavailable in your area, try looking into America's Test Kitchen. They have television shows on Public Broadcast Stations, DVDs, magazines, websites, etc. With every episode they not only cook the dish, but explain the why those ingredients work well or when you can get spectacular results using very humble ingredients or disastrous results using expensive ingredients cooked the wrong way.

In my opinion, bogleheads is about investing, and only about investing. I hate it when forum members seek to extend the concept to housing, automobiles, cooking, vacations, and other lifestyle choices.

As far as cookware goes, I own and use products from All Clad, Le Creuset, ScanPan, and Lodge. I have good knives. I drink my wine out of Riedel stemware. I shop at farmers markets and Whole Foods. And, you know what, taking that high-end approach towards cooking at home is one of the things that keeps me from wanting to eat at restaurants.

Oddly enough, I don't own a food processor or an Instant Pot.

We've started to do much more cooking since the pandemic and have bought several cook books to explore different cultures, for example we bought a Japanese home cooking one and one written by a chef who opened a popular restuarant here in Portland (Pok Pok) but has since, sadly, closed. I would say we consider ourselves "foodies" since it's hard not to be when you're in Portland and surrounded by amazing eateries so we make our food consumption a priority item in the budget.

Things we are willing to spend money on:
- Vegetables. We usually buy them from our local grocery or the farmer's market when they're in season.
- Eggs. We consume a decent amount of eggs and usually spend $6-8 per dozen. I think the cheapest I've seen here is <$2 for a dozen.
- Meat and seafood. We'll usually buy organic from the nearest rancher/farmer and for seafood we'll try and get the most environmentally-friendly one we can. We use to consume one salmon filet a week but since watching Seaspiracy we've reduced that to maybe once every 1-2 months. Oysters are our preferred go-to seafood
- Asian sauces. I grew up with my family only eating a certain brand of things and I have since incorporated that into my cooking life like 3 crabs brand for fish sauce, a certain brand for soy sauce, Lee Kum Kee for hoisin sauce, etc.
- Junk food. I will not buy off-brand junk food, it's terrible and never ever worth it. I remember my wife, bless her heart, bought me Franz' frosted circus animal crackers instead of Mother's and it just wasn't the same - we had to throw the bag out. I use that incident as a reference anytime the topic comes up.

Things we spend less money on:
- Beans and olives. We'll usually always buy these canned.
- Knives. I don't have the skills or ability to extract the potential out of a $150+ Japanese knife. In terms of sharpness, I've found that using a sharpener that I got from Bi-Mart once a week gives me great results on my $20 knives.
- Pots and pans. I think we got a $100 non-stick pan that has been incredible and I think that was our most expensive kitchen tool.

We focus 100% on quality. We pay almost no attention prices.

Sub-Zero refrigerator.
All-Clad and Le Creuset cookware.
Wüsthof knives.
A Pepper Cannon.

Spices from Savory Spice.
Novo coffee from the Roastery.
Meat from our local butcher who sources locally.
Fish from our local fishmonger.
Cheese from out local cheesemonger.
Pasta (dried) from artisanal makers.
Tomatoes — San Mariano DOP
Wine. Look at performance using Vivino.
Refritos and tortillas from a local "Mexican" factory.

Our current withdrawal rate is 3%. So, I guess we have enough money.

Below is what I pay up for and where I skimp.

What I pay up for?

- Scallops (I can get them from $8-$12 per pound)
- Organic food especially the dirty dozen (strawberries, raspberries, blue berries, etc.)
- Wild caught salmon
- Temperature probe (I can cook like a pro without watching the food. Maybe this should go on the skimp list since it saves so much time and only cost ~$20.)
- Homemade dog food, when I have the time (I am including time in paying up for).
- Homemade cashew nut yogurt (its ridiculously easy and no sugar or thickening agents plus it helps my intestines)
- Spaghetti sauce (I make a sauce pretty close to Rao's that costs a fraction and doesn't have any added salt. Again, I am including time in paying up for.)

Where do I skimp?

- Stainless steel pans. (I got mine at Marshalls. I left one on the burner and completely boiled all the water away for an 1 hour. I soaked and scrubbed it and it was fine. Try that with expensive coated pans. I also can cook eggs to perfection on low heat and they do not stick.)
- No gadgets except Insta-pot (I find that I can pretty much do everything with a few, pots, pans, knifes, and utensils and all of the other stuff is just costing money and taking up space. As I get older, I appreciate simplicity and low maintenance.)
- Stainless Steel knifes- (I think the only difference I can tell between forged Chicago Cutlery and Wusthof is the latter hold there edge twice as long. For me, with ceramic sharpeners, its not worth 10 times the cost.)

Overthinking this quickly gets to the point of diminishing returns. A full-service supermarket like Publix has everything we need at a decent price. But you can find niches. Trader Joe has sub-par produce but everything else is high-quality and low price. Some stores like Meijer and Kroger are just such unpleasant experiences that I’ve given up on them. Local grocers can be worth the extra price if they have excellent quality and service. Costco is just dehumanizing and to me not worth the savings. In the kitchen it’s worth it to have excellent knives (I like Cangshan), a cast iron set, good non-stick set, a gas range, electric oven, charcoal grill outside to be liberally used for meat or veg. Cooking at home should be fun, not a chore. Once it gets to be a chore time to rethink.

My take on the food/cooking matter is, if you take average ingredients but put them in the hands of an excellent cook, the result will be worth having. If you take high end ingredients but put them in the hands of an about average cook you won't experience all that was possible.

Bogle7 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:36 pm We focus 100% on quality. We pay almost no attention prices.

Sub-Zero refrigerator.
All-Clad and Le Creuset cookware.
Wüsthof knives.

Spices from Savory Spice.
Meat from our local butcher who sources locally.
Fish from our local fishmonger.
Cheese from out local cheesemonger.
Pasta (dried) from artisanal makers.
Wine. Look at performance using Vivino.
Refritos and tortillas from a local "Mexican" factory.

Our current withdrawal rate is 3%. So, I guess we have enough money.

Agree. We do pretty much the same. My wife and I love to cook, lifelong foodies, and we very much enjoy preparing, consuming, and sharing good food and wine with friends and family. At this point in our lives we are lucky enough to be able to primarily focus on freshness, nutrition labels, and quality rather than prices. In a week we will sometimes shop 5-6 different stores to get the ingredients we want for our meals. When we do go out its occasionally to mom and pop run ethic places like Thai, Vietnamese, Mideastern, Indian, etc.

dewey wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 pm My take on the food/cooking matter is, if you take average ingredients but put them in the hands of an excellent cook, the result will be worth having. If you take high end ingredients but put them in the hands of an about average cook you won't experience all that was possible.

Exactly. Just like a $100k car won't make you a good driver a $1500 set of pans and fresh organic groceries won't make you a good cook.

dewey wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 pm My take on the food/cooking matter is, if you take average ingredients but put them in the hands of an excellent cook, the result will be worth having. If you take high end ingredients but put them in the hands of an about average cook you won't experience all that was possible.

Or if you put high-end ingredients in the hands of someone who just doesn't care (food is nothing more than a source of fuel to me- nutrition/cost ratio is pretty much all I care about), it's pointless. Due to having cooked all my own food since a very early age, I'm actually a halfway decent cook, but it's not something I care a whole lot about. I've used enough high-end ingredients, cookware, and gadgets to realize I can't tell the difference 99.9% of the time (or the difference doesn't have value you to me) and therefore splurging would be a waste in my case.

UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm In my opinion, bogleheads is about investing, and only about investing. I hate it when forum members seek to extend the concept to housing, automobiles, cooking, vacations, and other lifestyle choices.

As far as cookware goes, I own and use products from All Clad, Le Creuset, ScanPan, and Lodge. I have good knives. I drink my wine out of Riedel stemware. I shop at farmers markets and Whole Foods. And, you know what, taking that high-end approach towards cooking at home is one of the things that keeps me from wanting to eat at restaurants.

Oddly enough, I don't own a food processor or an Instant Pot.

Was the first part of your post a joke? Because I noticed you then proceeded to answer the non-investment related question. Personally, I find the non-investment posts just as engaging. Its helpful to learn about other topics from people who generally think the same way I do.

spickups09 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 pm

UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm In my opinion, bogleheads is about investing, and only about investing. I hate it when forum members seek to extend the concept to housing, automobiles, cooking, vacations, and other lifestyle choices.

As far as cookware goes, I own and use products from All Clad, Le Creuset, ScanPan, and Lodge. I have good knives. I drink my wine out of Riedel stemware. I shop at farmers markets and Whole Foods. And, you know what, taking that high-end approach towards cooking at home is one of the things that keeps me from wanting to eat at restaurants.

Oddly enough, I don't own a food processor or an Instant Pot.

Was the first part of your post a joke? Because I noticed you then proceeded to answer the non-investment related question. Personally, I find the non-investment posts just as engaging. Its helpful to learn about other topics from people who generally think the same way I do.

You missed my point completely. My point is that to be a boglehead you don't need to be an ultra-cheapskate in all of your lifestyle choices.

I am happy to discuss consumer and other non-investing issues here on the forum, but I don't like posts that assert that there is an ultra-cheap boglehead approach to lifestyle choices. Usually that approach is portrayed in terms that align more closely with Mr Money Mustache.

stoptothink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:21 pm

dewey wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:12 pm My take on the food/cooking matter is, if you take average ingredients but put them in the hands of an excellent cook, the result will be worth having. If you take high end ingredients but put them in the hands of an about average cook you won't experience all that was possible.

Or if you put high-end ingredients in the hands of someone who just doesn't care (food is nothing more than a source of fuel to me- nutrition/cost ratio is pretty much all I care about), it's pointless. Due to having cooked all my own food since a very early age, I'm actually a halfway decent cook, but it's not something I care a whole lot about. I've used enough high-end ingredients, cookware, and gadgets to realize I can't tell the difference 99.9% of the time (or the difference doesn't have value you to me) and therefore splurging would be a waste in my case.

Totally agree. Someone who doesn't care much about cooking or food isn't going to notice much difference in the quality of ingredients or the final outcome that lands on a plate. No sense spending extra money on the ingredients or the cookware or knives, etc.

R2D2 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:27 pm I've noticed that there's a wide price range when it comes to food ingredients, appliances, cookware, etc. Some of these things might make a big difference in the quality of the food you make and some may not be worth it. When it comes to cooking, where is it worth paying up?

This is likely too wide-ranging of a question to get a good answer. And it's most likely depends on how much you cook, what you cook, and your individual tastes.

- For example, I have one really good knife and a few decent knives. Works out fine for me.
- I have a few really good pots and pans, and a few average ones for boiling things like spaghetti.
- There's a particular brand of mayonnaise we like. It's a bit more than others, but worth it for us.
- We buy good produce, unless we are using it in a soup or other recipe where just average is fine.
- We pay a fair amount for good rib eye steaks. But for hamburger cheap is fine.

etc, etc.

UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:58 pm

spickups09 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 8:50 pm

UpperNwGuy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 7:09 pm In my opinion, bogleheads is about investing, and only about investing. I hate it when forum members seek to extend the concept to housing, automobiles, cooking, vacations, and other lifestyle choices.

As far as cookware goes, I own and use products from All Clad, Le Creuset, ScanPan, and Lodge. I have good knives. I drink my wine out of Riedel stemware. I shop at farmers markets and Whole Foods. And, you know what, taking that high-end approach towards cooking at home is one of the things that keeps me from wanting to eat at restaurants.

Oddly enough, I don't own a food processor or an Instant Pot.

Was the first part of your post a joke? Because I noticed you then proceeded to answer the non-investment related question. Personally, I find the non-investment posts just as engaging. Its helpful to learn about other topics from people who generally think the same way I do.

You missed my point completely. My point is that to be a boglehead you don't need to be an ultra-cheapskate in all of your lifestyle choices.

I am happy to discuss consumer and other non-investing issues here on the forum, but I don't like posts that assert that there is an ultra-cheap boglehead approach to lifestyle choices. Usually that approach is portrayed in terms that align more closely with Mr Money Mustache.

I think the OP was just meaning "Boglhead" as in the forum itself and maybe the underlying philosophy that brought us all here, not necessary as a "cheapskate" way to cooking. I think most people on the forum would agree you don't need to be extremely frugal in all areas of life to be a Boglehead. One of my hobbies for example (movie collecting) is probably relatively rare for this board because it's purely a materialistic/consumption pursuit. But it brings me happiness, so I do it.

R2D2 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 3:27 pm I've noticed that there's a wide price range when it comes to food ingredients, appliances, cookware, etc. Some of these things might make a big difference in the quality of the food you make and some may not be worth it. When it comes to cooking, where is it worth paying up?

Do you cook yet?

Learn to use what you already have. Figure out how much you can do with it. Then get a specific new thing if it turns out it would make your life easier. Fresh produce is worth paying for. So are free range eggs (you know they're good when the yolk is orange). Dried herbs / spices aren't that expensive even when they're expensive. Fresh herbs can be grown at home. If you want to cheap out on ingredients, cheap out on fish fillets: frozen fish is less expensive than fresh fish, just as nutritious, and tastes just as good if you do it right.

michaeljc70 wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 5:35 pm I'm a firm believer that knowledge/technique are the biggest determinate for whether a dish is good/great.

Too true, and just like investing!

For equipment, it's more about learning where the price:quality ratio is super high. You can spend a lot and get fabulous and functional gear, but you do not need to at all. Clad pots and pans can all be easily had for 1/2 retail price at discounters like TJ Maxx. Thick aluminum nonstick is cheap at webstaurant store, as are 1/2 sheet pans. Much better than what you will find in stores or even on Amazon. There's a great Victorinox 8" chef's knife in my Dad's drawer that I think is 30 bucks? If I had to pick items that might be worth spending a little more on, it would be powered stuff like a food processor and blender, whatever Cooks Illustrated says is good right now.

For ingredients, my philosophy is that fancy (expensive) ingredients don't cook themselves. You can ruin a lobster or dry-aged prime steak quite easily. Turning cheap ingredients into something satisfying is what cooking is all about. I'm fortunate to live in a place with grocery stores serving people's tastes from all over the world, so finding a variety of ingredients is no work at all.

Specialty items that cost more than their regular equivalents that you'll find in my kitchen: oil-packed tuna and anchovies, Parmesan Reggiano, good olive oil, Kerrygold salted butter, pickles, a piece of aged hard cheese, sustainably raised meat and eggs, and that's about all I can think of. Most of the time price does not equal quality, but demand.

Expensive cheese is always worth it. It's delicious and the taste is a lot more intense so you end up eating less. Expensive vegetables are closer to what they should taste. For example I find the cheap tomatoes inedible.
If you barbecue a brisket, buy always the USDA prime one. It's much more forgiving with mistakes and delicious.
Instead of a Green Egg buy an Acorn. For 300$, it does the same thing and does not break (might rust though). However a good remote thermometer with at least 2 probes, maybe even an automatic temperature controller with a fan is definitely worth it!
Weber charcoal grill, usually not worth it. Any grill does the same thing. I have the cheapest grill from home depot for 10 years and grills just the same. A wire grate over couple of rocks does the same.
As for kitchen equipment, I have friends who have medium high end appliances and they break all the time. All of them, every couple of years, even the Wolfe gas range (don's ask what can break in a gas range). I have low end old equipment and it never had a problem. It cooks food or cools it the same.
I don't understand expensive cast iron pots/pans. Le Creuset, Staub etc Why?
Camry, not worth it. Oops, wrong topic.

JoeRetire wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:09 pm.There's a particular brand of mayonnaise we like. It's a bit more than others, but worth it for us.

Hello!
Brand name please.

halfisglassfull wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 6:30 pm The golden rule for cookware is don't buy sets. Don't buy sets of pots and pans, don't buy knife sets. You will pay extra for items you don't need, and you could have put that same money toward buying better versions of the items you do need.

And you'll probably lose one of the knives by leaving it in the plastic tray your Sams rotisserie chicken came in (reheating your chicken in the microwave counts as cooking, right?), and then you'll have a missing slot in your knife holder forever.

Bogle7 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:38 am

JoeRetire wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:09 pm.There's a particular brand of mayonnaise we like. It's a bit more than others, but worth it for us.

Hello!
Brand name please.

Sir Kensington sriracha mayo was great but they changed the formula.

Worth buy Instant Pot. Cook quick healthy meals such as oatmeal, Chicken Fajitas, Chili, soups etc without much supervision, just dump and go. Works for our busy family.

I think this is really an individual type of answer. I cook a lot and love some cookware that is probably more expensive but I find cooks evenly and cleans easily. That would be my Le crueset cookware - casserole dishes, Dutch ovens, sauce pans, braisers, etc. There are some gadgets that are useful but not that expensive that make cooking easier - garlic mincers, a good/high quality chopper/blender (those are not expensive). And then there are the every morning/evening pans I keep around for eggs (non stick) and sautéing vegetable pans - I think those (in my experience) are almost best cheap unless you are a serious breakfast chef and then you might have a different opinion….

I have an air fryer - not ashamed of it and use it sporadically. (Full disclosure I went through a phase where I tried everything through an air fryer). I would splurge for a 2 basket for a family - it allows you to cook 2 things at once which is nice….

I do think grills matter - outdoor grills (gas) - I am a strong believer in Weber after having different brands. I would recommend the cast iron grates as well - the spirit series is relatively cheaper, sometimes you can find it on sale and the cast iron grates give a good char to the food.

I think ingredients are a little overhyped if making food. Fresh>canned/frozen/dried. That’s it. Fresh garlic>powder or liquid minced. And it’s cheap. Lemon or lime juice fresh is better than bottled. Again not that expensive. To do this, you prob need to hit the store more frequently than 1x/week but prob not more than 2 x /week unless you love the grocery store like I do. You can get a pretty good idea now a days online with recommendations of fresh vs stored ingredients and their taste in recipes - but universally I would say fresh>not fresh. If using spices, several upscale grocers have bulk spices sold by the pound. A small amount for a recipe in a bag might run you $0.25 but is much more fragrant than the bottled versions.

No cook food is very dependent on ingredients. Sandwiches, bruschetta, salads are decent examples of this. Good quality bread, meats, cheeses and vegetables will make it taste significantly better than lower quality equivalents.

Just like anything else, the more you get into cooking, the more you will discover hacks that make sense for you. In addition, foods that seem difficult to impossible to make will seem much easier. Furthermore, the more you cook, the more you can do with limited supplies in a kitchen which is like a cool challenge. There are times when I work late, feel tired, head home and just don’t feel like picking something up but have nothing made at home. Open up the fridge and I will throw a few ingredients together to make an egg scramble (10 min), maybe whip up some waffles (15 min), or whip up some chili - 25 minutes. You can add things that don’t normally fit - but if you have it on hand, sometimes you can incorporate it.

Last, but not least, a salt and pepper grinder are typically under $10 each - even disposable ones are cheaper. They make a big difference when seasoning food.

Hope that helps….

I buy 100% organic foods, spices etc. Quality is important and the quality of American food is poor. By poor I mean nutritionally inferior. I don't skimp but I have a very simple diet which most people here I would assume could not live with. I cook a lot from scratch because I enjoy it and because I know what the ingredients are. Good nutrition particularly as we age is invaluable, many diseases and conditions are avoidable and we know how expensive it is to be unwell in the United States.

All-Clad tri-ply pots and pans, Le Creuset French oven in two sizes. They cook evenly and are easy to clean . Buy on sale or sometimes score a great deal at HomeGoods, like a $100+ fry pan for $20.
I pick up miscellaneous utensils at HomeGoods or other stores that discount good quality items.
High quality chef’s knife and paring knives.
Good poultry scissors.
I buy as much organic food as possible, and wild pacific salmon and cod, never farmed fish.
I buy name brand staples at WalMart, but buy meat, fish, wild caught shrimp, and poultry at Costco and repackage into 2-serving portions and freeze them. I also like Trader Joe’s for organic produce.

As I tell my husband, I buy organic for what’s NOT in the food.

Spouse and I cook/grill most meals at home. I don’t skimp on quality ingredients. I save money on food spending by:
1) keeping food waste to a minimum
2) planning menus around store sales rather than vice versa
3) stocking up during store sales and using coupons
4) using a credit card with higher rewards for grocery shopping,
5) grow my own herbs rather than spending $ on much higher priced herb bunches from the store. Some herbs are great flash frozen (such as basil) for winter use when my garden is dormant.
6) keeping a store of homemade broth, tomato sauce, chili and sometimes pulled pork in the freezer. On nights we don’t feel like cooking, we might have a meal of soup, popovers and salad, for example, rather than ordering take out which has become very expensive for even simple foods like burgers.

Experiment with cooking tools and appliances. Quality knives, certain pots/pans and appliances are well worth it to me.

Bogle7 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:38 am

JoeRetire wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 9:09 pm.There's a particular brand of mayonnaise we like. It's a bit more than others, but worth it for us.

Hello!
Brand name please.

We only like Cains.
Can't stand store brands, Hellmans, etc.