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An Age of Prosperity, The Kingdom of Denmark

Placing the Danish princes as dukes of the rebellious areas are a good idea. First it legitimise the Danish claim to the area, future dukes will have a hard time changing to the Emperors side, because they have gotten their right to the duchies from the Danish king. Next it force the half brothers to be loyal as a conflict with Valdemar III risk that the "rightful" claimant to the duchies invades in case of civil strife. Vistav have also been rewarded showing the Danish king remember loyalty. Of course the potential troublemaker are Abel, he have the least to lose in a conflict with his brothers. Of course I think Abel will avoid creating problems, if Valdemar III end up surviving, but if he dies I could see Erik and him fighting over the crown.

Hmm I agree, kinda throws my plan a bit into disarray, not bad for prosperity sake, but more problematic for my plan to change the government... While Abel and Christoffer OTL rebelled Erik I actually see it much less likely against Valdemar III, just the fact that since 1216 he have been co-king or elected prince makes his position so much stronger than Erik's were historical.

But that's what I like about this so much, while the people that have commented have often hit on the same butterflies that I have, there are other butterflies that I have not thought about! Which is also the reason I believe I will come to rely on peoples comments as soon as I hit on permanent butterflies territories, I can still rely to some degree on historical events.

Valdemar III's halfbrothers are creating their own cadet branches of the house of Estridsen which may or may not survive, what would their names be? My suggestion is something with their respectiv duchies (Holstein-Estridsen etc. ? )


Also good luck.

Thanks
 
Hmm I agree, kinda throws my plan a bit into disarray, not bad for prosperity sake, but more problematic for my plan to change the government... While Abel and Christoffer OTL rebelled Erik I actually see it much less likely against Valdemar III, just the fact that since 1216 he have been co-king or elected prince makes his position so much stronger than Erik's were historical.

But the good thing about Abel running Schleswig is that Erik are clearly first in line, so Erik won't back Abel if he makes trouble, in fact he's more likely to back Valdemar as he can't afford a civil war which would make his domain open to a Saxon invasion.
But that's what I like about this so much, while the people that have commented have often hit on the same butterflies that I have, there are other butterflies that I have not thought about! Which is also the reason I believe I will come to rely on peoples comments as soon as I hit on permanent butterflies territories, I can still rely to some degree on historical events.

Yes we can make some guesses, as you I too think that Valdemar III are in a much safe position than Erik were. If Valdemar II dies in 1241 as in OTL Valdemar II will be 31. His wife died in child birth and suffered from cancer. So I think her death in OTL are likely. The question who hisd next wife will be, I imagine he will remarry soon after her death (in OTL he died the same year). So he will likely remarry and produce one or several children in the 1230ties. So he may have a son who is 5-8 year when Valdemar II dies, the same age as prince Valdemar was when he was crowned co-king. This would ensure the position of Valdemar III against his brothers.

Valdemar III's halfbrothers are creating their own cadet branches of the house of Estridsen which may or may not survive, what would their names be? My suggestion is something with their respectiv duchies (Holstein-Estridsen etc. ? )

They will likely just be named after their duchies (Mecklenburg, Sønderjylland and Holstein). Estridsen are not a name which lend itself to be mioxed with a place name. So the sidelines will likely just named after the areas they rule. Which also mean that if any of the duchies are split we will likely see the longer name. As example if Sønderjylland are split we may see the house of Sønderjylland-Slesvig and the house of Sønderjylland-Ribe as example. Also I think you shouldn't use Schleswig for Sønderjylland, the name are unlikely to be in use even outside Denmark, it will likely be called Südjütland in German, while in English they will likely adopt some kind pseudo Latin name for the region or a anglofication of the medieval German name (Sudiutland, "j" wasn't used at this time). Also I think to show the difference from OTL where Danish adopted German titles, Danish are unlikely to adopt Hertug (from German Herzog "Duke") instead Jarl (Earl) could continue being the title used in Denmark for duke.
 
But the good thing about Abel running Schleswig is that Erik are clearly first in line, so Erik won't back Abel if he makes trouble, in fact he's more likely to back Valdemar as he can't afford a civil war which would make his domain open to a Saxon invasion.

Funnily enough I had Abel and Christoffer rebel, while Erik staying loyal, though I am fairly certain I have scabbed that plan now.

They will likely just be named after their duchies (Mecklenburg, Sønderjylland and Holstein). Estridsen are not a name which lend itself to be mioxed with a place name. So the sidelines will likely just named after the areas they rule. Which also mean that if any of the duchies are split we will likely see the longer name. As example if Sønderjylland are split we may see the house of Sønderjylland-Slesvig and the house of Sønderjylland-Ribe as example. Also I think you shouldn't use Schleswig for Sønderjylland, the name are unlikely to be in use even outside Denmark, it will likely be called Südjütland in German, while in English they will likely adopt some kind pseudo Latin name for the region or a anglofication of the medieval German name (Sudiutland, "j" wasn't used at this time). Also I think to show the difference from OTL where Danish adopted German titles, Danish are unlikely to adopt Hertug (from German Herzog "Duke") instead Jarl (Earl) could continue being the title used in Denmark for duke.

Thought Sønderjyllan were a newer term, but might be wrong on that point.

About Jarl versus Hertug. It is my understanding that Hertug were used in Denmark about 100 years earlier than Valdemar II, so gonna stay with that title, even in Norway will be adopting the more european title of duke in the next 20 years or so (OTL)
 
Funnily enough I had Abel and Christoffer rebel, while Erik staying loyal, though I am fairly certain I have scabbed that plan now.

I think it's a good idea to drop that plan

Thought Sønderjyllan were a newer term, but might be wrong on that point.

The term was used until the duchies union with Holstein, and Slesvig was only adopted in Danish after the Oldenburgs became kings of Denmark

About Jarl versus Hertug. It is my understanding that Hertug were used in Denmark about 100 years earlier than Valdemar II, so gonna stay with that title, even in Norway will be adopting the more european title of duke in the next 20 years or so (OTL)

The titles was used interchangeable early on (thanks to Sønderjylland being the first duchy, and the area having a large Saxon population between Eider and Schleswig town). It was really only after Valdemar II that Hertug won out.
 
Wondering if any of the Danes would be able to help me. been looking for a young Danish noble woman that is not yet marriaged in 1224. Any suggestions?
 
These event will surely make for time and manpower to colonize Pommern. Had a look at Skalk 2/1992 - it was the lack of Danish settlers that doomed the effort. Here you should be able to have Danish make a marked influence on the Land and language.
Young Danish noblewoman - I'll try look into it.
 
Aftermath
In the summer of 1224, Valdemar II received envoys from Norway. Sigurd Ribbung, having escaped in 1223 from Skule Bårdsson the Jarl of Nidaros, and one of the most powerful men of Norway. Sigurd Ribbung is a pretender to the Norwegian throne. Much of Viken have joined him in his rebellion against Håkon IV, the Norwegian king that resides in Bergen. Seeing an opportunity to stop the rise of Håkon IV, and Norway as a whole or at least disrupt it, Valdemar II agrees to send 3.000 men under Johannes Ebbesen to support the claim of Sigurd Ribbung, as long as he marries the Danish noble woman Ingeborg Ulfeldt, the daughter of Peder Strangesen of Kalundborg. In the early parts of 1225, she will arrive in Viken, with another 1.000 men from her father’s holdings. As of 1225, Valdemar III, the elected prince is of age. He will take on a larger role of governing the country.

For decades, the Polish dukes and Prussian tribes have been locked in warfare, the Poles to convert the pagans, and the Prussian tribes raiding the Polish lands for slaves. While the Polish at times have succeeded in defeating the pagan tribes and converting them, they soon turn back towards their pagan roots. While waiting for the pope’s answer, Valdemar II has been conducting correspondence with the Duke of Masovia, Konrad I, about a joint campaign against the Prussian tribes.

In Norway the fighting has become a standstill, Håkon IV has been beaten back from southern Norway, and Sigurd Ribbung is in complete control of Viken, However they are not strong enough or interested in going on the offensive. Håkon IV has increasingly trouble of controlling Skule Bårdsson, the second most powerful man in Norway. In the summer of 1226, a son is born to Sigurd Ribbung and Ingeborg Ulfeldt. Unfortunate Sigurd Ribbung in the winter becomes ill, and passes away in late 1226.
The Bagler nobles decide to support the infant Harald Sigurdsson, also known as Harald Ribbung. Due to a fear of losing Danish support, if they do not. Ingeborg and Harald are spirited away to Denmark, where Harald will grow up in Valdemar’s court. The Danish soldiers and mercenaries under Johannes Ebbesen stays in Norway.

In Valdemar’s realm, the land is returning to normality, the economy and population are growing at a steady pace, Rügen, Pomerania and Estonia starts receiving Danish settlers, which will clear the forested areas and build new villages. Economic wise, especially Lübeck is booming, the salt trade and the Herring trade is immense, while Lübeck does not have a monopoly on the herring trade, it is by far the largest participant, however Rostock, Havn, Stettin, Wismar and other towns and cities in the western parts of the Baltic Sea to some degree participates in the annual fishing. For the areas on the coast of the Øresund the benefits are obvious, nevertheless, no place other than Skanør and Falsterbo in the extreme southwest of Skåne benefits the most. It is out of these two areas that most herring are caught, two royal castles are build to secure that Valdemar II can control the herring trade. Another important trade good for the prospering danish towns and cities is the importation of Swedish Iron and copper by the Swedish city of Kalmar and Visby.

In Holstein, the castle of Bengerndsborg is founded on the spot where Johannes Ebbesen landed the Danish army in 1223, it will serve to become the resident of choice for Christoffer, Duke of Holstein and his mother. As time goes on the surrounding area will become the largest city in the duchy.

Before his death in 1227 Pope Honorious III gave acceptance to Valdemar and other Christian nobles in Northern Europe to invade the Prussian tribes, as such the correspondence between Valdemar II and Konrad I intensifies to come to an agreement between the two rulers.

mZiFaVD.png


In Norway, relations between Skule Bårdsson and Håkon IV have broken down; Norway is essentially split into three areas. Valdemar’s support of Sigurd Ribbung, have succeeded in preventing the rise of the Norwegian Kingdom. Johannes Ebbesen and the Danish forces have little to do. They have effectively become a garrison force.

1228, sees more preparation for the crusade, also Valdemar, the elected prince becomes a father, a bastard son is born, the son is named Sigurd.

In 1229 Valdemar, the elected prince is married to Eleanor of Portugal, the niece of his stepmom. Knut Holmgersson deposes Erik XI Eriksson the King of Sweden and the nephew of Valdemar II as a result Erik XI flees to Denmark. Which is rather inconvenient for the Danish king, which is preparing for the campaign against the pagans in the Baltic.
 
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A Danish wank? Be still my heart!
Not planning on it to be a mega wank, but more of a what if Denmark instead of 100 years of civil war etc. have 100 years of stable rule?

Anyways, essentially I have Denmark taking the spot of the Teutonic order in the Prussian Crusade, I don't see a reason For Konrad I, Duke of Masovia to invite the Teutonic order, when there is a kingdom a lot closer and willing to do it. Wondering what will happen with the Teutonic order, I don't see them participating when they are not promised land, which mean the Order-master will be staying in Venice at the moment. Thoughts ?
 
Not planning on it to be a mega wank, but more of a what if Denmark instead of 100 years of civil war etc. have 100 years of stable rule?

Anyways, essentially I have Denmark taking the spot of the Teutonic order in the Prussian Crusade, I don't see a reason For Konrad I, Duke of Masovia to invite the Teutonic order, when there is a kingdom a lot closer and willing to do it. Wondering what will happen with the Teutonic order, I don't see them participating when they are not promised land, which mean the Order-master will be staying in Venice at the moment. Thoughts ?

It's more likely if they don't take part in Baltic crusade that they will take greater part in the Sixth Crusade and through we will likely also see some of their OTL members join the Livonian Order instead, through some may also join the Danish-Polish Crusade against the Prussians as secular knights, I could also see more of them joining the Swedes in their crusades in Finland.
A interesting aspect with the Danes and Swedes having even more successful crusades. Could the Norwegian minor states start their own crusade in the White Sea area ("Bjarmian Crusade"). I could see Nidaros use such a crusade to set itself up a prince-bishopric with Norway being split. The Result could be a Duchy of Viken as a Danish vassal, a Republic of Bergen which end up in control over the Norse islands of the North Atlantic plus the Kingdom of the Isles, while the Prince-Archbishopric Nidaros end up with control over northern Norway, Lappland and Bjarmia/Bjarmland. Bergen could turn into some kind of Venice of the North Atlantic. Nidaros could get it own knightly order (which controlled Bjarmia), which raised its knights in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Scottish and Irish areas/states, like the Teutonic knights raise their knights in German areas.
 
In the summer of 1224, Valdemar II received envoys from Norway. Sigurd Ribbung, having escaped in 1223 from Skule Bårdsson the Jarl of Nidaros, and one of the most powerful men of Norway. Sigurd Ribbung is a pretender to the Norwegian throne. Much of Viken have joined him in his rebellion against Håkon IV, the Norwegian king that resides in Bergen. Seeing an opportunity to stop the rise of Håkon IV, and Norway as a whole or at least disrupt it, Valdemar II agrees to send 3.000 men under Johannes Ebbesen to support the claim of Sigurd Ribbung, as long as he marries the Danish noble woman Ingeborg Ulfeldt, the daughter of Peder Strangesen of Kalundborg. In the early parts of 1225, she will arrive in Viken, with another 1.000 men from her father’s holdings. As of 1225, Valdemar III, the elected prince is of age. He will take on a larger role of governing the country.

For decades, the Polish dukes and Prussian tribes have been locked in warfare, the Poles to convert the pagans, and the Prussian tribes raiding the Polish lands for slaves. While the Polish at times have succeeded in defeating the pagan tribes and converting them, they soon turn back towards their pagan roots. While waiting for the pope’s answer, Valdemar II has been conducting correspondence with the Duke of Moravia, Konrad I, about a joint campaign against the Prussian tribes.

In Norway the fighting has become a standstill, Håkon IV has been beaten back from southern Norway, and Sigurd Ribbung is in complete control of Viken, However they are not strong enough or interested in going on the offensive. Håkon IV has increasingly trouble of controlling Skule Bårdsson, the second most powerful man in Norway. In the summer of 1226, a son is born to Sigurd Ribbung and Ingeborg Ulfeldt. Unfortunate Sigurd Ribbung in the winter becomes ill, and passes away in late 1226.
The Bagler nobles decide to support the infant Harald Sigurdsson, also known as Harald Ribbung. Due to a fear of losing Danish support, if they do not. Ingeborg and Harald are spirited away to Denmark, where Harald will grow up in Valdemar’s court. The Danish soldiers and mercenaries under Johannes Ebbesen stays in Norway.

In Valdemar’s realm, the land is returning to normality, the economy and population are growing at a steady pace, Rügen, Pomerania and Estonia starts receiving Danish settlers, which will clear the forested areas and build new villages. Economic wise, especially Lübeck is booming, the salt trade and the Herring trade is immense, while Lübeck does not have a monopoly on the herring trade, it is by far the largest participant, however Rostock, Havn, Stettin, Wismar and other towns and cities in the western parts of the Baltic Sea to some degree participates in the annual fishing. For the areas on the coast of the Øresund the benefits are obvious, nevertheless, no place other than Skanør and Falsterbo in the extreme southwest of Skåne benefits the most. It is out of these two areas that most herring are caught, two royal castles are build to secure that Valdemar II can control the herring trade. Another important trade good for the prospering danish towns and cities is the importation of Swedish Iron and copper by the Swedish city of Kalmar and Visby.

In Holstein, the castle of Bengerndsborg is founded on the spot where Johannes Ebbesen landed the Danish army in 1223, it will serve to become the resident of choice for Christoffer, Duke of Holstein and his mother. As time goes on the surrounding area will become the largest city in the duchy.

Before his death in 1227 Pope Honorious III gave acceptance to Valdemar and other Christian nobles in Northern Europe to invade the Prussian tribes, as such the correspondence between Valdemar II and Konrad I intensifies to come to an agreement between the two rulers.

mZiFaVD.png


In Norway, relations between Skule Bårdsson and Håkon IV have broken down; Norway is essentially split into three areas. Valdemar’s support of Sigurd Ribbung, have succeeded in preventing the rise of the Norwegian Kingdom. Johannes Ebbesen and the Danish forces have little to do. They have effectively become a garrison force.

1228, sees more preparation for the crusade, also Valdemar, the elected prince becomes a father, a bastard son is born, the son is named Sigurd.

In 1229 Valdemar, the elected prince is married to Eleanor of Portugal, the niece of his stepmom. Knut Holmgersson deposes Erik XI Eriksson the King of Sweden and the nephew of Valdemar II as a result Erik XI flees to Denmark. Which is rather inconvenient for the Danish king, which is preparing for the campaign against the pagans in the Baltic.


It is Mazovia not moravia..
 
It's more likely if they don't take part in Baltic crusade that they will take greater part in the Sixth Crusade and through we will likely also see some of their OTL members join the Livonian Order instead, through some may also join the Danish-Polish Crusade against the Prussians as secular knights, I could also see more of them joining the Swedes in their crusades in Finland.
A interesting aspect with the Danes and Swedes having even more successful crusades. Could the Norwegian minor states start their own crusade in the White Sea area ("Bjarmian Crusade"). I could see Nidaros use such a crusade to set itself up a prince-bishopric with Norway being split. The Result could be a Duchy of Viken as a Danish vassal, a Republic of Bergen which end up in control over the Norse islands of the North Atlantic plus the Kingdom of the Isles, while the Prince-Archbishopric Nidaros end up with control over northern Norway, Lappland and Bjarmia/Bjarmland. Bergen could turn into some kind of Venice of the North Atlantic. Nidaros could get it own knightly order (which controlled Bjarmia), which raised its knights in Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Scottish and Irish areas/states, like the Teutonic knights raise their knights in German areas.

Sweden historical first did the second crusade in 1248-50 so there is some time till then, also the first crusade is a mythical one, out of curiosity, if the Swedish conquest/colonization is stopped who would be the one take over the area. There's obviously Novgorod. but are there really any takers besides them ?
 
Novgorod, with Livonian Order being a (very distant) second pick (being shifted there by Danish pressure) ... Denmark is probably more interested in pursuing the southern Baltics rather than vast tracts of tundra with limited economic worth.
 
Novgorod, with Livonian Order being a (very distant) second pick (being shifted there by Danish pressure) ... Denmark is probably more interested in pursuing the southern Baltics rather than vast tracts of tundra with limited economic worth.
One of the problems of Novgorod taking over Finland is that according to my research Finland before the Swedish second crusade is actually considered Catholic, so the Pope at some point will probably want them to be removed. Accordingly pope Gregory send out such papal bulls in respectively 1233 and 1237, to protect the catholic Finns from its neighbors.
 
Sweden historical first did the second crusade in 1248-50 so there is some time till then, also the first crusade is a mythical one, out of curiosity, if the Swedish conquest/colonization is stopped who would be the one take over the area. There's obviously Novgorod. but are there really any takers besides them ?

I think a knightly order could be interesting, but alternate you could have the Danes conquer it. I lean toward Novgorod being somewhat unlikely, I could see them take eastern/central Finland, but western and southern Finland lend itself to conquest from the sea. I think personal if Sweden doesn't conquer Finland we will see Denmark conquer the traditional southern Swedish speaking areas plus Finland proper, the Norvegians/Nidaros will control the Saami, the Bothnian bay (both the Finnish and Swedish side) will be mostly be terra incognita (which will likely be called Kvenland), but the Swedes will likely tax any locals, who will be a mix of Finns and Swedes, Novogorod will likely control Karelia, while the inland areas will also be terra incognita with a unclear taxation.
 
Denmark is quite a possible in Finland - OTL there were a number of Danish trading posts on the shores of the Gulf of Finland according to Danske korstog krig og mission i Østersøen by John H. Lind. Its quite an interesting read also dealing with Danish involvement in the crusades in Prussia.
 
Swedish Troubles
The overthrow of Erik XI of Sweden, posed a certain problem for Valdemar II, he could hardly ignore that his young nephew, now in his court had been overthrown by a pretender, on the other hand he is busy planning quite possible the largest campaign of his reign. However, there are some redeeming features of the situation, Johannes Ebbesen, the Danish Marsk have returned from Norway with nearly half the force send there. Håkon IV and Skule Bårdsson, or Skule I as he styles himself, is prioritising fighting each other, which have calmed the situation in Viken considerable. While Johannes Ebbesen will be needed for the campaign in the southern Baltic, the funds for the Norwegian campaign can be funnelled into helping Erik XI to regain his throne.

Furthermore, Knut Holmgerssons rule is built on a shaky foundation, the Cities of Kalmar and Visby, in respectively Småland and the isle of Gotland. Have always been autonomous areas of the Kingdom, both left alone in the power struggle between the noble families of Svearland and the two Götlands. Both cities know that their livelihood are tied to that of the Danish trade in the Baltic, realising that the Danish king obviously is hostile to a king that not only is a pretender, but also have deposed his own nephew. Both cities have not risen in open rebellion, but Knut Holmgerssons tax collectors have been thrown on the gate. While the peasants of the forested Småland region cares little for the Danish king, they do not mind not having to pay taxes. Besides these autonomous areas not acknowledging Knut Holmgersson, much more severe is the problem of the noble families of Västergötland and Östergötland being neighbours to the Danish kingdom, and supporters of Erik XI are much less happy about the situation. Moreover, while they too have not taken to arms, nor thrown out the tax collectors of Knut, there are rumblings going on in the winter of 1229 and 1230 of what to do when, in their opinion, the obvious Danish response comes. Many of the Noble families look to the impressively powerful Bjelbö family from Östergötland, as which side to take in the conflict.

Sure enough, a response there will be, Valdemar, the elected prince and the nobleman Johann Rantzau, a once minor Holstein nobleman, which have prospered, and become one of the most powerful men in Holstein, by siding with the Danish king during the Saxon rebellion in 1223. Are tasked with restoring Erik XI to the throne of the Swedish kingdom, with the veteran mercenaries of the Norwegian campaign and the levies of Halland, some 500 knights and four time their numbers in squires, archers and footmen. A considerable force, however previous Danish invasion, in support of Swedish pretenders has shown, that such a force are not invulnerable, if the inhabitants of the land find their presence disagreeable. Luckily, for not only the Danish force, but also for Erik XI, the Geats, on behest of most of the Bjalbö family, supports them. Not only does this save time, the towns of Lidköping and Falköping and the city of Skara were all willing to support the armies, furthermore castles such as Aranäs, which otherwise would have to be conquered likewise were a boon towards Erik XI’s cause. As such, the supply lines of the army are much less precarious, than it would have been.

While the army marched through the landscape of Västergötland towards the deep forest of Svearland, news of the Svear army finally reached them. The army had descended upon Östergötland, while most of the Bjelbö family had sided with Erik XI, the most important man of the Bjelbö family, and arguably, the second most powerful man in Sweden, the Jarl of Sweden, Ulf that would gain the nickname the Dreadful from other members of the Bjelbö family sided with Knut Holmgersson. As such, the invasion by Erik XI had been anticipated. Jarl Ulf used the opportunity to brutally put down his opposition in Östergötland, killing many relatives, one of these deaths were the young Birger Magnusson, a man, which many had believed, would be the Jarl after Ulf. There had even been talking about a marriage between Birger Magnusson and the older sister of Erik XI.
 
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