The place for news articles about current events in the United States and the rest of the world. Discuss it all here.
For asking casual questions about History. Also see r/History or r/AskHistorians.
This is a subreddit is about paintings depicting battles or other historically important events.
Questions about the Balkan states answered! New users check out our Wiki or FAQ page, get to know our community and it's rules.
A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Europa Universalis IV by Paradox Development Studio.
Questions about the Balkan states answered! New users check out our Wiki or FAQ page, get to know our community and it's rules.
A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Hearts of Iron IV by Paradox Development Studio.
This is a subreddit is about paintings depicting battles or other historically important events.
Enjoy browsing r/europe? Help us find the best of 2021 of the sub! - Nomination Post
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
This is a pretty good video about the battle, political situation and consequences:
Battle of Vaslui
That was fascinating! Thank you.
The pronunciation of Wallachia bothered me a bit too much...
If you go to Moldova (the country), everything is named after Stephan cel Mare. The streets, the parks, museums, monuments, theaters, he’s on the banknotes (on all denominations). You’d think the guy is a dictator currently ruling the country. Then you go to Moldova (Romanian province), and…he’s almost as intensely present. It’s unusual to see a figure from as far back as the middle ages being so prominent in the modern day.
He's also a saint in Romanian Orthodox Church.
Different Stephen.
Are you sure?
I presumed you meant St. Stephen (27th of December).
I don't know that much about saints and all that.
Without him, Moldova would've been turned into an Ottoman province, no Romanian province was a part of the Ottoman Empire per se, they were vasal states that could run their own business as usual as long as they paid the Ottomans tribute every year.
So yea it makes sense for him to be on everything and for him to be so revered even today.
So why wasn't Valachia made an eyalet. The reality is that the Ottoman empire never tried to do that, it would basically get no advantage of doing it.
Plus with Moldova, they had a buffer state between them and the Polish empire.
The Ottoman empire wanted western expansion (bulgaria - Serbia - Hungarian empire) not nothern expansion.
They actually tried during the wars with Michael the Brave of Vlad the Impaler, can't remember which one.
They tried to make Wallachia after Vlad crazy ruling, and after Michael the Brave. But they couldn t
But you still try to live in Romania ...
https://youtu.be/bGNT5Uh-WKw?t=192
The Battle of Vaslui (also referred to as the Battle of Podul Înalt) was fought on 10 January 1475, between Stephen III ("The Great") of Moldavia and the Ottoman governor of Rumelia, Hadım Suleiman Pasha.
The battle took place at Podul Înalt (the High Bridge), near the town of Vaslui, in Moldavia (now part of eastern Romania). The Ottoman troops numbered up to 120,000, facing about 40,000 Moldavian troops, plus smaller numbers of allied and mercenary troops.
Stephen inflicted a decisive defeat on the Ottomans, with casualties according to Venetian and Polish records reaching beyond 40,000 on the Ottoman side. Mara Branković (Mara Hatun), the former younger wife of Murad II, told a Venetian envoy that the invasion had been the worst ever defeat for the Ottomans.
Stephen was later awarded the title "Athleta Christi" (Champion of Christ) by Pope Sixtus IV, who referred to him as "verus christianae fidei athleta" ("the true defender of the Christian faith").
According to the Polish chronicler Jan Długosz, Stephen did not celebrate his victory; instead, he fasted for forty days on bread and water and forbade anyone to attribute the victory to him, insisting that credit be given only to the Lord.
Actually due to modern researches it was a 40.000 vs 30.000 battle and nearly third of the Moldavian army was Polish (2000) and Hungarian (7000) reinforcement. But still a great achievement.
Nobody denies the Polish and Hungarian help - mostly Szeklers since they were obviously closer - in school here. It's a known fact for anyone who learn the lesson about this battle.
True. The numbers mentioned by OP and the unimportance of foreign help is a nationalist reminiscence since at least communism. It is nice to inflate the numbers because the victory looks more impressive. As for the foreign troops... well, thus we can complain that the west never helped us (so why should we try to join them today) and the victory was 100% Romanian( even though they were Moldavians and did not had modern national conscience)
The OP quotes the numbers given by the chroniclers back then. They're not made up, inflated as all numbers regarding battles in the past most probably are. Everyone interested in history knows that.
The million Persians that invaded Greece in the fifth century BC? I rest my case.
A true historian knows the importance of contemporary sources, or at least he should.
Did I mentioned something about the sources? I put a little context regarding why we are still using the numbers today (and downgrading the Hungarian contribution) when we have an idea regarding the real ones.
But yea, reading comprehension is a rare asset in Romania
No one presents those numbers as being real. Unlike OP and most Romanians do regarding some of our battles.
Not true. His numbers are wrong. Even the most skeptical of historians puts the Ottoman numbers at over 60k. Besides I've never heard anyone in school deny the presence of allied troops, and I studied history in the 90s.
Polish and Szekely troops are "Western"? :)
There were around 1000 Hungarian troops. Szekely weren't Hungarian and were recruited directly by Stefan.
It's basically impossible to have any sort of discussion of anything related to our history without either being derailed, maligned or downplayed by a specific segment of Romanians. It's like the communist nationalistic narrative but in reverse.
If anything Stefan is underrated in Romania and basically unknown outside of the country although he was one of the best military leaders of the period in Europe.
Polish and Hungarian yes. Fully western at that time. Their kingdoms were fully integrated into the western "culture"(I could not find a better word). Their administrations are fully modeled and link to the west, they being catholic is also crucial in this aspect as they as closely linked to Rome as any other kingdom. In fact, Hungarian kings had the "Apostolic" term in their title and this was a high honor from the pope. The Spanish kings had this too.
Borders based by culture are always shifting. Europe's cultural borders shifted depending on the period.
Lemme guess, you jerk off to Rosler. There are worst kinks, I guess.
No idea who came up with the 40000 vs 30000 numbers but they're false. The Ottomans had 30k cavalry alone + 20k bulgarian peasants + 5k timariots and tatars, we know this for a fact. We also know for a fact that the jenissaries outnumbered the others, that the total number of dead and captured on the Ottoman side was around 45000 and at least a third of the army survived and was used as the core of the 150k strong army that invaded the following year.
The real numbers were 40-45k Moldavians, of which 10k were professional soldiers vs 80-90k Ottomans, oh which at least 55k were professional soldiers.
Furthermore there were no 7000 Hungarians. Matthias Corvinus promised 20k professional soldiers, and sent only 1800 light infantry (he raised money for the 20k and just kept it). There were also 2000 Poles, out of the 12000 that were promised, and 5000 Szekely volunteers that Stephen recruited personally. While today szekelys are hungarians, there was a massive distinction between magyar and szekely at the time (see Unium Trium Natiorum signed 100 year earlier which lists them as a distinct nation altogether).
Care to back that up with real historical data?
Doubt we promised that much
I think that's a bit exaggerated. You're telling me Moldavia assembled a bigger army of peasants than Ottomans could. I don't believe in 120k ottomans getting beaten but 60 000 could be more accurate, considering the fact there was also a Wallachian army that didn't fight. Besides, no one is denying the presence of foreign troops, Stephen was a vassal to literally every neighbouring country
The Oytomans had prpfessional soldiers, they did not rely on peasants. Moldavia assembled everything it had. 1 year later the Ottomans invaded with 150k + 30k tatatrs attacking from the east + 10k Wallachians.
Yep, our entire history has been re-written during communism to have our wins be impossible feats of never-before-seen achievement. And outside help has always been pushed to the side or outright erased.
I never, in my life, trusted Romanian retelling of history. School was extraordinarily disapointing for me. My father had always taught me about communism and our recent history. School never did.
It was never hidden at all. We did have some acient histroy, but the second we entered medieval era when we could actually call something "Romania" or "Proto-Romania", it all became bullshit. And once aproaching recent history it became "nothing happened. All's good. Please ignore the mass graves."
EDIT
Very poor wording and relaying of thoughts on my parts. I never felt like the romanian school system was hiding how biased they were. There's an expression "juca cu cartile pe fata." English would probably be somehting like "Playing with the cards on the table", aka playing poker and exposing your cards. They were blatant about their attempt at manupulation.
But I think it was only obvious to me, because dad knew what to teach me, and he did it at the right time.
Let's not fall on the other side now. It's not like only Romanians did that. Most countries (in this area at least - dunno about other places) politicized their history. It's a phenomenon which started in the 19th century or even earlier.
I can only speak on what I know. I haven't seen, nor studied history from another perspective. It's not really a subject that fascinates me. Only how horrible school was about the last 100 years of our history compared to reality.
Had Oradea not have a huge Jewish cemitary, I would have never asked "what's that about". And outside of my father, I had never really hear anyone talk about how many jews were in Oradea before "the great purge" (legionari, etc.)
OH, AND FUCKING LEGIONARI. WE SURE LURNED ABOUT THEM AT HISTORY /s
Thanks to Moldavian drummers and heavy fog they got crushed
Yup the fog was essential. Ottomans were disoriented and ended up in some marshes. Not a good idea to wage war in the winter back then here for people who may come from warmer places.
Edit: Obviously that fog was considered God intervention.
During his 50 year reign Stefan the Great fought 48 battles and won 46 of them while facing every imaginable type of adversary of the time, from Turkish janissaries going through step horse archers to the heavily armored Polish and Teutonic Knights. And he did so with little resources and a, basically, peasant army.
His most notable victories are:
Guy is completely underrated as a military commander, he was one of the best of the century/period in medieval Europe.
in Poland there is a saying. " Za króla Olbrachta wyginęła szlachta" The nobility died under King Olbracht.
Did it have any lasting consequences?
One can reasonably speculate that it prevented an Ottoman conquest.
Just like every battle in the region at that era, it bought some time with holding back the Ottoman Empire. Not letting them rolling over Europe might have been pretty important.
I honestly feel that most battles involving Ottomans and South-Eastern Europe are severely inflated by their importance at "saving Europe" from the Ottoman threat. Especially considering that most of these countries ultimately ended up being conquered by the Ottomans anyway.
It's like every battles are painted like a Vienna, I get that for national reasons every country will hype up their battles and their importance, but all things considered I doubt Modolva was that important.
It took them about 130 years of wars to take over Hungary and occupied it for another 150. It might have been different, if they would get free pass to the west. Imagine if instead of having your French Renaissance period, you would have an occupation destroying your population and economy.
But yeah, stuff like that was probably wasn't a big deal even then. Look up, for example why do churches ring their bell at noon.
Wait until you find out about Narbonne.
I doubt the Ottomans would have passed farther than the Alps. Maybe they could have conquered Austria, parts of Italy and Bohemia, but even that's a stretch.
I fail to see how Moldova was an important region that kept Europe from being rolled over. By comparison, the Kingdom of Hungary was 10 times more populated than Moldova and was more powerful. You cannot compare both Kingdoms.
That being said...
In the 16th Century, France was much, much more powerful than Hungary and could draw a LOT more manpower to fight the Ottomans. In 1500 the French Kingdom was more populated than the Ottomans, the comparison isn't even fair.
So in the end, Ottomans wouldn't have been able to roll over Europe at all, South-Eastern Europe WASN'T Europe and was certainly NOT comparable to Central or Western Europe in terms of power. What the Ottomans could do in that region wouldn't necessarily happen in Western Europe, and considering how stretched the Ottomans would have been it makes it even less plausible.
Ottomans pushed to Vienna because Europe didn't care, the French Crown for example saw the Ottomans as a counter-weight against the Habsburgs. Aside from countries directly threatened by the Ottomans, Europe wasn't that concerned because they had others neighbours to deal with.
That's because you never had the Ottomans on your doorstep, you even allied them. It helped the Austrians, Hungarians and Polish to buy some time while most of the reward was a pat on the back from the Pope. I could say the same about Charlemagne fighting the Moors, he didn't have any effect on the Romanians, but I know long term that could've meant the spread of Islam in Europe
I'm not saying the impact of these battles were insignificant, they were very much significant for the countries concerned and the region specifically.
But for Europe as a whole, to paint those battles as if they were a Dam holding back the Ottomans tide is very much propaganda if you ask me. Especially considering that it didn't prevent them from rolling over the Balkans and South-East Europe.
Well, in the western and south part of Europe they were fighting saracens and what not. Sometimes the west (the pope) would give help to the south-east, despite the differences and personal problems. They don't mention this enough in the history books, although it should be obvious since the pope was signing all those orders and the church had a higher power, but all these wars lasting centuries where basically christians vs the rest (considered all pagans at that time, although muslims/islam is not). They were afraid they would invade Europe.
Here's the thing. I doubt the French Kingdom relied on Moldova to protect them. Much like most of Western Europe.
Par contre, la bataille de Poitiers est cruciale, de portée européenne, héroïque et historique, Charles Martel devrait être canonisé
Bof, même les Musulmans à l'époque n'attardent pas de grande importance à cette bataille parce-que de l'autre côté de l'Europe c'est la défaite à Constantinople qui est bien plus importante.
There is a not insignificant chance at least some part of France would be speaking Turkish if not for the centuries in which the Balkan states fought the Ottomans.
In Moldova's case, and the same goes for the other 2 Romanian medieval states, we were vassals of the Ottomans but never provinces in the empire per se like Bosnia or Albania for example, all because of voievodes like Stephan.
How ? Why ?
Comment removed by moderator
It looks like someone's still seething lol
Why so salty?! It's an anniversary of some battle which took place more than 500 years ago. Also it's not like we asked for the Ottomans to come here in the first place.
I mean, yeah, they were subjugated in the end, but they put up such a fight that the Ottomans thought twice before venturing further into Europe.
I believe it played an important part, but we can't know what would've happened without those wars.
They literally invaded Moldova one year later after this battle.
Then invaded Serbia, Venice, Hungary, Naples, fought in Iran and in Egypt, before subjugating Moldova.
If anything, they didn't thought twice about anything, they kept on invading. Moldova was just a speed-bump.
I think they hold back the turks just long enough for the rest of Europe to unite. I think we see in the present day as well, Russia and Turkey have been stronger recently due to the disunity in Europe.
Europe was never united until recently (even that is debatable)
Russia is a decaying power that relies on it's overbloated military and natural gas, while Turkey is nothing more than a regional power that is currently in financial crisis and in no way a threat to Europe.
Actually Turkey is in a risky position for Europe at the moment. If we actually collapse there won't be anybody to collect your debt from.
How is Turkey "stronger" because of some disunity in Europe? Explain
Vaslui
Botez în foc
I see Vaslui, I tend to be proud
Also don’t believe in 600 years ago history, at least not the one written by loosers
It's just me, but did the author more or less copied Matejko's Grunwald?
This is a typical composition for the depiction of a battle, with the main figures in central positions.
Who ever heard of mateiko !?
It's not really that typical. And the whole composition is almost the same. Banners in the back, fallen rider on the right, riders on the hill on the right background...
You're making yourself ridiculous
Besides, this mateico, is he a local celebrity !?
Not everyone is supposed to having heard of him, though.
Matejko has got the special room in Vatican 🇻🇦 . He's one of the most known and most influencial from this part of Europe. He's far more credited so you are the one who is making yourself ridiculous.
Voivada was a genocider and barbarian
Like the Turks?
Battle of the High Bridge