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Post by Otto Harkaman on Jun 10, 2020 10:47:17 GMT -6
Hmmm well had to think on my reply, as my disclaimer stated I wasn't replying to anyone just my opinion and preference of things. I know there is a lot of academic research on Tolkien but I still think writing "The Hobbit" was an elevated creative genius, a Mozart symphony if you will. Even though he used ideas of earlier writings he achieve something unique with it. So to me it is the root of cannon.
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Post by Falconer on Jun 10, 2020 12:13:29 GMT -6
- The Book of Lost Tales
- The Lays of Beleriand
- The Hobbit
- Sauron Defeated [Númenor cycle]
- The Lord of the Rings
- The Children of Húrin
- Unfinished Tales
Hmmm well had to think on my reply, as my disclaimer stated I wasn't replying to anyone just my opinion and preference of things. I know there is a lot of academic research on Tolkien but I still think writing "The Hobbit" was an elevated creative genius, a Mozart symphony if you will. Even though he used ideas of earlier writings he achieve something unique with it. So to me it is the root of cannon. To me the great leaps or breakthroughs, the truly remarkable bursts of mind-blowing creativity, are The Book of Lost Tales and The Lord of the Rings.Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love The Hobbit, and I don’t wish to diminish it in any way. Without it, we perhaps wouldn’t have ever heard of Tolkien, and there would be no D&D, etc. However, I do class it as a “remix” of BoLT material, which is IMO true of almost all his writings other than the LotR.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jun 13, 2020 14:17:11 GMT -6
I've always thought of The Book of Lost Tales as a proto-Silmarillion. Having said that, I don't think that detracts from its value. Tolkien's thought process as he developed his languages and stories are invaluable to every fan.
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Post by Falconer on Jun 14, 2020 20:00:35 GMT -6
I've always thought of The Book of Lost Tales as a proto-Silmarillion. Having said that, I don't think that detracts from its value. Tolkien's thought process as he developed his languages and stories are invaluable to every fan. I agree, though I will add that the tales told in The Book of Lost Tales are all written in long form, and when these are retold in The Silmarillion, they are all presented in short (skeletal/summary) form only. You will even notice that The Silmarillion constantly refers the reader to the full version of each tale. These tales exist in The Book of Lost Tales only—they were never rewritten, with a couple of important exceptions which can be found chiefly in The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin.So while the mythology/worldbuilding in The Book of Lost Tales is “primitive,” the storytelling and fundamental imaginative process is irreplaceable. Apologies for dwelling on this point, but, it’s my favorite book in the world, and I gotta stick up for it in a world which assumes it’s just a collection of notes or drafts or something invented by Christopher. As for why The Silmarillion even exists as a summary-form retelling of The Book of Lost Tales, understand that Tolkien intended it as a companion piece to accompany The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin, i.e., to place those tales in context. Hence I usually recommend skipping The Silmarillion, except for people who really enjoyed The Lord of the Rings Appendices and want to get that sort of grand scheme overview of the history.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jun 15, 2020 2:24:14 GMT -6
Fair enough, although I think the Silmarillion gives a good summary of the major events in the First Age. The Book of Lost Tales is recommended for those who want more detail.
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 15, 2020 8:48:58 GMT -6
I wish Tolkien had finished that aborted retelling of "The Fall of Gondolin" ("Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" in Unfinished Tales).
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Post by Falconer on Jun 15, 2020 12:31:44 GMT -6
The cool thing is that the UT “Coming to Gondolin” fleshes out in great detail an episode which in BoLT was relatively sketchy, whereas the “Fall of Gondolin” proper (i.e., the rest of the story) is written in pretty great detail in BoLT.
That’s very typical of Tolkien: he rarely rewrote in full form a story which had already been written in full form.
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Post by tetramorph on Jun 19, 2020 14:46:44 GMT -6
Falconer, what is the difference between BoLT and UT? And, are there two volumes to the BoLT? I seem to only own one. Is there another I need to purchase? Sorry for my ignorance, but I want to get things straight. I LOVE the Silmarillion, because I do like Biblical-style book-of-Chronicles like story telling! I know, I am weird that way. But I trust your opinion a good deal and would like to try to read the "canon" the way you suggest. Thanks.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jun 20, 2020 0:48:28 GMT -6
Book of Lost Tales is actually two books, parts 1 and 2. They are an early draft of the Silmarillion, although they go into more detail than that book. They are the first two books of the History of Middle Earth series.
Unfinished Tales is a different book, and has some information spanning the three Ages. It's notable for having information about Numenor.
I would recommend all those books.
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Post by Falconer on Jun 20, 2020 7:07:19 GMT -6
Yeah, The Book of Lost Tales is published in two volumes. It is J.R.R. Tolkien’s earliest novel, though of course it wasn’t published till after his death. The title is “in-character,” and refers to the tales of the Elves which were lost to men. Unfinished Tales is the “out-of-character” title of a collection assembled by Christopher Tolkien of some of his father’s unfinished writings, all from among his latest writings. It will be helpful to have read The Silmarillion, but you’re really in for a treat, IMO, if you haven’t read these. My copies:
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Post by geoffrey on Jun 20, 2020 14:05:43 GMT -6
I remember buying the first volume of The Book of Lost Tales when I was a freshman in high school (1984-85). It was a hardback and came in the mail. I remember going through it that sunny afternoon after school:
"Whoa... What exactly is this?"
'It keeps mentioning "my father". This editor must be Tolkien's son! That's mind-blowing!'
"This is bizarre."
Etc.
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Post by tkdco2 on Jul 21, 2020 15:45:59 GMT -6
I've always thought of The Book of Lost Tales as a proto-Silmarillion. Having said that, I don't think that detracts from its value. Tolkien's thought process as he developed his languages and stories are invaluable to every fan. I agree, though I will add that the tales told in The Book of Lost Tales are all written in long form, and when these are retold in The Silmarillion, they are all presented in short (skeletal/summary) form only. You will even notice that The Silmarillion constantly refers the reader to the full version of each tale. These tales exist in The Book of Lost Tales only—they were never rewritten, with a couple of important exceptions which can be found chiefly in The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin.So while the mythology/worldbuilding in The Book of Lost Tales is “primitive,” the storytelling and fundamental imaginative process is irreplaceable. Apologies for dwelling on this point, but, it’s my favorite book in the world, and I gotta stick up for it in a world which assumes it’s just a collection of notes or drafts or something invented by Christopher. As for why The Silmarillion even exists as a summary-form retelling of The Book of Lost Tales, understand that Tolkien intended it as a companion piece to accompany The Lays of Beleriand and The Children of Húrin, i.e., to place those tales in context. Hence I usually recommend skipping The Silmarillion, except for people who really enjoyed The Lord of the Rings Appendices and want to get that sort of grand scheme overview of the history. For me, The Silmarillion is what the Book of Lost Tales is for you. It was such a big influence in my youth that saying that stuff in it is no longer canon hits a nerve with me. That's why I ignore the changes to the actual parentage of Orodreth and Gil-galad.; for some reason I find that particularly irksome. That said, I have no problem incorporating characters who didn't make it into The Silmarillion.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 2, 2020 12:56:44 GMT -6
I just watched a fan-made film about Sir Percival. It reminded me that the Arthurian legends -- medieval and modern versions alike -- have different versions of events, some even contradictory. Same goes with different myths from around the world. As Tolkien was trying to create a mythology for England, we should treat it as such. Canon doesn't make a lot of sense in this context. Only The Hobbit and LOTR truly qualify, since they were published during Tolkien's lifetime. That means if you're a Game Master running a Middle-earth campaign, don't worry about canon too much. Just pick the version you like and stick with it.
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Post by Otto Harkaman on Oct 2, 2020 14:10:20 GMT -6
I think Glorfindel must have been pretty active in the Third Age once he returned to Middle-Earth, I can't see him just hanging out in Rivendell all the time.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 2, 2020 14:40:46 GMT -6
I can see that. He drove the Witch King away from Angmar, after all.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Oct 3, 2020 1:59:04 GMT -6
There are some things where I think the published Silmarillion version is superior to later revisions; e.g. the attempts to undo the story of the making of the Sun and Moon from the last fruit and flower of the Two Trees*; and I find Galadriel's published-Silmarillion history as a participant in Feanor's rebellion much superior to the later version where she departed for Middle-Earth separately.
I am not sure how 'solid' much of the late History of Middle-Earth material is; some of the essays in Morgoth's Ring seem actually incompatible with LOTR, with things like it being impossible to extend human life beyond 100 years or so (uh, then what about the Numenoreans and Aragorn???) But other things are quite polished like 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth'.
*In fact I wish we had the full version of the Making of the Sun and Moon published; even the Book of Lost Tales version has some things cut out for length!
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 3, 2020 12:35:25 GMT -6
The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth was definitely great; I wish it had been included in the Silmarillion. I do agree the Silmarillion did some things a bit better than later writings. I've already stated my issues.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Oct 4, 2020 23:58:26 GMT -6
The Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth was definitely great; I wish it had been included in the Silmarillion.
Absolutely. It's kind of an unique piece... pretty much everything else in HoME except some essays is either incomplete or superseded in some way. It's odd that such a finished piece is relegated to volume 10 in HoME. I suppose it was considered to be of too niche interest... but I don't think it's more so than some of the Rohan/Gondorian history stuff in "Unfinished Tales".
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Post by angantyr on Oct 8, 2020 14:07:37 GMT -6
My thoughts for a Middle Earth campaign are rather different, in that I would include ALL of the lands invented by the good professor - so the ME of the 3rd Age would co-exist with lost Beleriand and the island of Numenor in order to maximize adventuring possibilities. Obviously the history would be quite different, but it would allow for the maximum number of dungeons (not just Moria, but one might explore a sort of abandoned Utumno or Angband, while Morgoth might have escaped capture with his lieutenant Sauron hiding out somewhere else as big baddies, and there would be somewhat more balrogs - not hundreds but at least a couple/few dozen). And so forth.
In other words anything J.R.R. Tolkien wrote/Christopher Tolkien edited would be fair game for inclusion. I might add MERP materials at my whim for added detail. Otherwise, I'd combine it anyway I pleased, at least for an OD&D campaign. The actual history and background as given in LOTR/Silmarillion/Hobbit etc. would be very different, but all of the "ingredients" would be either purely Tolkien or at least closely derived thereof. So it won't hurt my head too much to have the Riders of Rohan riding to the rescue of the beleaguered Host of Fingolfin fighting off goblins, orcs, Smaug the Golden, Haradrim, etc.
(Parenthetically, I am really an EXTREME Tolkien purist... but for purposes of a game world and to keep players in the dark and not "knowing the future" I will mix and match to create a unique "Middle Earth")
As an aside I largely despise PJ's "work" so none of that would be found here. I honestly detest his films in large measure because he imagines himself a better story-teller than Tolkien - and that is wholly false. Though I did mostly like the Fellowship of the Ring, I was let down by the Two Towers and Return of the King. And though I saw the first of the Hobbit movies I never did see the last two - I might someday, but I've heard enough to know I probably won't like most of it.
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Post by keolander on Oct 12, 2020 19:20:50 GMT -6
Speaking personally, I generally only accept The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings, The Ainulindalë, Quenta Silmarillion, The Children of Húrin, The Akallabêth (excepting the part where the world wasn't round), The Rings of Power and some of Tolkien's last writings but discount most of the Valaquenta as being a Mannish interpretation that was simply transmitted to Bilbo that no one corrected. As for gaming, I think Cubicle7 did a pretty good job with getting the tone and feel of Middle-Earth with The One Ring RPG and Adventures in Middle-Earth, excepting where they made it far too easy for players to croak and/or become Miserable instead of being something akin to Big Dang Heroes! that the setting calls for in all honesty. And I think no one has beaten Steven S. Long's system for Magician's magic from The Lord of the Rings RPG by Decipher. Where Cublic7 absolutely knocked it out of the park, in my humble opinion, was with Jon Hodgson's artwork who I feel was the closest to getting it right since Angelo Montanini all those years ago I'm not a fan of either Alan Lee nor John Howe's use of plate armor in paintings/drawings that are 100% out of place for Middle-Earth. MERP is a big offender in this regard.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 13, 2020 3:36:01 GMT -6
The first time I read the Akallabeth, I interpreted the part about the world having been made round as the Numenoreans discovering that the world was round rather than flat.
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Post by angantyr on Oct 13, 2020 12:11:39 GMT -6
Where Cublic7 absolutely knocked it out of the park, in my humble opinion, was with Jon Hodgson's artwork who I feel was the closest to getting it right since Angelo Montanini all those years ago I'm not a fan of either Alan Lee nor John Howe's use of plate armor in paintings/drawings that are 100% out of place for Middle-Earth. MERP is a big offender in this regard. I'll have to check out the Cubicle7 material. I, too, am not a huge fan of Lee or Howe's work, though I actually liked much of the MERP artwork by Angus McBride. I especially liked his depiction of the Witch King - far and away better than the ridiculous flail and jet engine air intake helmet we saw in the movie. Note that some plate armor did exist - one passage in RotK specifically mentions a polished steel vambrace. Mail or scale, though, is a much better "fit" overall. Tangentially, once I (finally...) finish my Noldorin sword project, I hope to build a "Karma" helmet as illustrated on the cover of some editions of Unfinished Tales. I've loosely planned the frame and how to attach the scales, and mostly have to think through how to do the leather "fish tail" part of the helmet.
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Post by keolander on Oct 13, 2020 14:33:33 GMT -6
Eh, the burnished vambrace of Prince Imrahil could have been leather, but it also was more likely a splint kind like those used by the Varyangian Guard and Byzantine Kataphractoi....Plus, there is this line: So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail.
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Post by tkdco2 on Oct 13, 2020 16:43:25 GMT -6
I can see splint mail working in Middle-earth. If you're playing MERP, assume the Plate armor entry actually refers to splint.
In the movies, plate was easier to manufacture. Mail takes too long to make.
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Post by cometaryorbit on Oct 13, 2020 20:31:53 GMT -6
The first time I read the Akallabeth, I interpreted the part about the world having been made round as the Numenoreans discovering that the world was round rather than flat.
Tolkien at one point tried to revise the cosmology so that the Earth had been round all along - there is actually a version of the Numenor written that way in HOME volume 9 Sauron Defeated. (Much more on this subject is in volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, in the "Myths Transformed" section.)
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Post by TDenmark on Oct 13, 2020 21:38:44 GMT -6
The Hobbit cartoon by Rankin-Bass. Everything else is just fan fiction.
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Post by angantyr on Oct 13, 2020 21:55:06 GMT -6
Eh, the burnished vambrace of Prince Imrahil could have been leather, but it also was more likely a splint kind like those used by the Varyangian Guard and Byzantine Kataphractoi....Plus, there is this line: So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defence of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory. Tirelessly he strode from Citadel to Gate, from north to south about the wall; and with him went the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail.While I do not disagree with the interpretation from the pic you posted (there is also the example from the Valsgärde 8 panoply, as well, which would be even more relevant given its rough parallel with the historical basis for Beowulf) it is worth mentioning that the term "mail" can be used more broadly to refer generally to "armour" and not specifically to a form or armour wrought from interwoven rings. From Wikipedia: "Since then the word mail has been commonly, if incorrectly, applied to other types of armour, such as in plate-mail (first attested in Grose's Treatise in 1786)." Indeed, this concept carried over directly into OD&D and at least 1st Edition AD&D, where we in fact have Chainmail, Platemail, Scalemail, etc.! I would not support the notion that the vambrace was of leather, even though there are known references from the Middle Ages, simply because of the very line you cite: " ... the Prince of Dol Amroth in his shining mail" - even if it were waxed and polished leather I highly doubt the first adjective that would pop into an observer's head is "shining", so in this instance I'm pretty sure the good Professor intended some sort of metal armour. Also worthy of consideration is the fact that Gondor is presented as being somewhat more technologically advanced, so the idea of some sort of early style of partial plate armour would not seem wildly out of place. Alas that Tolkien had not provided a bit more detail! Though perhaps I should leaf through the appropriate HoME volume and see if there is in fact some additional detail that was cut from the final published version of LotR...
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Post by angantyr on Oct 13, 2020 21:56:07 GMT -6
The Hobbit cartoon by Rankin-Bass. Everything else is just fan fiction. Death! Death to the heretic!
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Post by TDenmark on Oct 14, 2020 0:14:12 GMT -6
The Hobbit cartoon by Rankin-Bass. Everything else is just fan fiction. Death! Death to the heretic! Seriously though. The Hobbit cartoon was my introduction to Middle Earth so whether or not the cartoon is any good it is a large part of Middle Earth to me. I breezed through The Hobbit and Fellowship in 3rd grade, but struggled through The Two Towers, it wasn't until rereading them as an adult that Two Towers became my favorite of the trilogy, also of the Peter Jackson movies. I listen to the Silmarillion on audio when I can't sleep but need to. So I'm probably a bit of a purist. Hobbit, LotR, and Silmarillion are canon. The rest is interesting, but not anywhere near the same level.
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Post by keolander on Oct 14, 2020 1:37:45 GMT -6
Tolkien was a Philologist and knew/studied languages extensively. He clearly knew what the word mail meant and the fact it came from the French maille, meaning mesh. And the idea that Tolkien just meant "armour" (including plate) is shown to be wrong as mail is clearly associated with armour of interlocking rings. Its why the words Corslet, Shirt and Hauberk show up repeatedly in the text. The word "Cuirass" doesn't show up in any of the texts. Greaves and Vambraces do not constitute plate since they can be leather or splinted (as I showed with the Varyangian Guard). And Tolkien in one of his letters says the styles of The Bayeux Tapestry fit the Rohirrim "well enough". That right there gives you the general idea of how many of the various armies of Middle-Earth would have been arrayed. None of them constitute plate armor, not even the Haradrim with their "corslet of overlapping brazen plates" which is a fancy way of saying Scale armor.
'He unwound several folds of old cloth, and held up a small shirt of mail. It was close woven of many rings....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 270
'Gimli the dwarf alone wore openly a short shirt of steel-rings....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 272
There hammer on anvil smote, There chisel clove, and graver wrote; There forged was blade, and bound was hilt; The delver mined, the mason built. There beryl, pearl and opal pale, And metal wrought like fishes' mail, Buckler and corslet, axe and sword, And shining spears were laid in horde. -- The Lord of the Rings p. 308
'Bilbo had a corslet of mithril-rings that Thorin gave him.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 309
'But even as they retreated, and before Pippin and Merry had reached the stair outside, a huge orc chieftain, almost man-high, clad in black mail.....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 317
'In their hands were tall spears of ash, painted shields were slung at their backs, long swords were at their belts, their burnished shirts of mail hung down upon their knees. -- The Lord of the Rings p. 421
'There men in bright mail stand; but all else within the courts are yet asleep.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 496
'There sat many men in bright mail......' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 497
'Now men came bearing raiment of war from the king's hoard, and they arrayed Aragorn and Legolas in shining mail......and Gimli needed no coat of rings, even if one had been found to match his stature, for there was no hauberk in the hoards of Edoras of better make than his short corslet forged beneath the Mountain in the North' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 511
'His scarlet robes were tattered, his corslet of overlapping brazen plates was rent and hewn....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 646
'Leading the line of there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 753
'So much alike were they, the sons of Elrond, that few could tell them apart: dark- haired, grey-eyed, and their faces elven-fair, clad alike in bright mail beneath cloaks of silver-grey.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 761
'Before him were the bones of a might man. He had been clad in mail, and still his harness lay their whole......' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 770
'He was clad as a rider with a cloak of dark green over a coat of fine mail....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 781
'No mail have we to fit you,' said Eowyn, 'nor any time for the forging of such a hauberk....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 785
'It was as he said; and Pippin soon found himself arrayed in strange garments, all of black and silver. He had a small hauberk, its rings forged of steel......' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 789
'He stood up and cast open his long black cloak, and behold! he was clad in mail beneath....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 800
'Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew of his mighty knee.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 824
'Surely,' he cried, 'this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power, to assail the mountains and impenetrable gate of the Black Land! So might a child threaten a mail-clad knight with a bow of string and green willow! ........ And there are names among us that are worth more than a thousand mail-clad knights apiece.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 864
'Over the tunic went a coat of stout ring-mail, short for a full-sized orc, too long for Frodo and heavy.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 892
'As they came to the opening in the wood, they were surprised to see knights in bright mail and tall guards in silver and black standing there...... ...... On the throne sat a mail-clad man, a great sword was laid across his knees, but he wore no helm.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 932
'He was clad in black mail girt with silver.....' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 945
'So it was that after Azanulbizar the Dwarves dispersed again. But first with great labour they stripped all their dead, so that Orcs should not come and win there a store of weapons and mail.' -- The Lord of the Rings p. 1050
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