Richard of Gloucester marries Mary of Burgundy | alternatehistory.com

Richard of Gloucester marries Mary of Burgundy

Deleted member 161180

I find every post about George, Duke of Clarence that weds Mary the Rich but because of reasons of age should Richard wed her and if Richard do that who would wed Max this would radicaly change world history and this means no Charles V,no thirty years war,no Louis XIV and would still Richard usurp the English throne or he couldn't because he is in Burgundy
 
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My first instinct was that he'd still usurp the throne but if he is in Burgundy than he will never have the chance to do so. So maybe a continuing reign of Edward V? Tudor probably ends up dying in exile or returning after swearing an oath of allegiance to Edward V. Maximilian probably weds a Jagellion Princess here.
 

Deleted member 161180

Well, if he does marry her i think they would have to children the First Charles becomes Duke of Burgundy the second Philip becomes Duke of Gloucester of course Louis XI will totally oppose this
 
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My first instinct was that he'd still usurp the throne but if he is in Burgundy than he will never have the chance to do so. So maybe a continuing reign of Edward V?
It looks like Richard only decided to usurp Edward V after trying to enforce the regency blew up in his face. If he's in Burgundy he wouldn't be able to enforce a regency and little Edward V probably gets crowned and guided by the council.
Tudor probably ends up dying in exile or returning after swearing an oath of allegiance to Edward V.
Probably returning. There was almost a deal lined up with Edward IV that Margaret Beaufort had brokered, and I can't see a reason why Edward V or a council would back off from that.
 
It looks like Richard only decided to usurp Edward V after trying to enforce the regency blew up in his face. If he's in Burgundy he wouldn't be able to enforce a regency and little Edward V probably gets crowned and guided by the council.
Pretty much a left no choice usurption rather than a traitor at first chance one.
 
What'll happen to Calais? It'll be in Burgundian interests to get it no?

Richard I of Lotharingia (b. 1452) m. 1) Anne Neville (b. 1456) 2) Mary I of Lotharingia (b. 1457)

1) A) Edward, Earl of Salisbury (b. 1472) m. Anne, Countess of Norfolk (b. 1472)

2) A) Charles, Prince of Calais/Arles (b. 1476) m. Yolande II of Lorraine (b. 1473)*

B) Cecily of Lotharingia (b. 1478) m. Ernst I, Holy Roman Emperor (b. 1480)**

C) Mary of Lotharingia (b. 1481) m. Christian II of Denmark (b. 1481)

* ATL daughter of Rene II and his first wife.

**ATL son of Maximilian I and Sophia Jagiellon.
 
It looks like Richard only decided to usurp Edward V after trying to enforce the regency blew up in his face. If he's in Burgundy he wouldn't be able to enforce a regency and little Edward V probably gets crowned and guided by the council.
I see, Richard probably stays in Burgundy when Edward 4 dies then.
Probably returning. There was almost a deal lined up with Edward IV that Margaret Beaufort had brokered, and I can't see a reason why Edward V or a council would back off from that.
So who does Henry marry? Probably an English noblewoman but he could be married to a royal proxy like Margaret of Salisbury who was left out of the succession IIRC, to stop him from trying anything.
 
but he could be married to a royal proxy like Margaret of Salisbury who was left out of the succession IIRC, to stop him from trying anything.
He ain't getting a Plantagenet. Maybe a Bourchier if you really really want a royal proxy.

But in all likelihood probably a Herbert, Katherine most likely.
It’s probably going to stick with England unless it is given to Mary as part of a dowry.
Like IIRC Philip II was given the Netherlands? Could work.
 
He ain't getting a Plantagenet.
I remember someone told me that such an idea was floated around in otl. Besides she has been left out of the succession and is pretty far behind in it, though I agree that's only if Edward V feels like it is a necessity.
Maybe a Bourchier if you really really want a royal proxy.

But in all likelihood probably a Herbert, Katherine most likely.
I suppose, so a Herbert for Henry it is.
Like IIRC Philip II was given the Netherlands? Could work.
Yep, just on a much smaller scale compared to that.
 
Richard could become king of Burgundy and there is nothing to stop richeards children marring into Spain but that my turn the story into Plantagenet Wank. It could also restart the 100 years war due to Plantagenet inheriting lands that belong to the king of France.
 
Honestly, I don't think richard could hold it for very long. England wasn't in shape to carry out a continental war and without imperial backing I don't think burgundy can stand up to france's weight. However, richard being cut out of the regency because of continental conflict, as well as no habsburg burgandy, could lead to interesting things
 

Deleted member 161180

Honestly, I don't think richard could hold it for very long. England wasn't in shape to carry out a continental war and without imperial backing I don't think burgundy can stand up to france's weight. However, richard being cut out of the regency because of continental conflict, as well as no habsburg burgandy, could lead to interesting things
Well, maybe the 80 years war would not happen
 
Honestly, I don't think richard could hold it for very long. England wasn't in shape to carry out a continental war and without imperial backing I don't think burgundy can stand up to france's weight. However, richard being cut out of the regency because of continental conflict, as well as no habsburg burgandy, could lead to interesting things
What imperial backing? AIUI most of Marie-Maximilian's marriage, the empire was too busy dealing with Matyas Corvinus. Burgundy provided the funds and the troops to fight off the French. And what Louis XI's reaction would be remains to be seen. He's got the duchy of Burgundy proper, but the rest of the lands allowed female succession, which meant Marie.
Does Louis XI want Marie to marry Charles VIII? Yes. But Louis XI was a master politician. While he'd rebel against Burgundy being CONNECTED to/in PU with the HRE/England, the marriage of Dickon to Marie is a different matter. No personal union between Burgundy-England means that England has no access to Burgundian funding, OTOH Marie gets a sword to fight for her as OTL. AIUI Dickon's battlefield rep was pretty good. But Dickon-Margaret's "estrangement" from Edward means that Louis can exploit that to drive a wedge between England and Burgundy (same way he drove wedges between other allies OTL)

@isabella
 
What imperial backing? AIUI most of Marie-Maximilian's marriage, the empire was too busy dealing with Matyas Corvinus. Burgundy provided the funds and the troops to fight off the French. And what Louis XI's reaction would be remains to be seen. He's got the duchy of Burgundy proper, but the rest of the lands allowed female succession, which meant Marie.
Does Louis XI want Marie to marry Charles VIII? Yes. But Louis XI was a master politician. While he'd rebel against Burgundy being CONNECTED to/in PU with the HRE/England, the marriage of Dickon to Marie is a different matter. No personal union between Burgundy-England means that England has no access to Burgundian funding, OTOH Marie gets a sword to fight for her as OTL. AIUI Dickon's battlefield rep was pretty good. But Dickon-Margaret's "estrangement" from Edward means that Louis can exploit that to drive a wedge between England and Burgundy (same way he drove wedges between other allies OTL)

@isabella
Well, much would depend from when Richard married Mary. If the wedding is arranged early and celebrated when Charles is still alive he can sign a cession of the Duchy of Burgundy (and other lands who Mary would be unable to inherit directly) to Richard.
 
Well, much would depend from when Richard married Mary. If the wedding is arranged early and celebrated when Charles is still alive he can sign a cession of the Duchy of Burgundy (and other lands who Mary would be unable to inherit directly) to Richard.
That cession would be ignored by Louis XI anyway.
 
If France is strong enough to retake Burgundy by force (OTL it was, and at the time, Habsburgs were much stronger than Plantagenets), then they'll find excuse. Burgundy was just too much of a price.
 
If France is strong enough to retake Burgundy by force (OTL it was, and at the time, Habsburgs were much stronger than Plantagenets), then they'll find excuse. Burgundy was just too much of a price.
Not sure about Habsburg being stronger than Plantagenets, also Plantagenets were much closer and much more dangerous than Habsburgs for France. Louis XI had bought off Edward IV for stopping his campaigns in France and had tried everything for preventing the Charles/Margaret match so is clear who the French King feared enough the Plantagenets.
EDIT: Remember also who in OTL Mary was unmarried at her father’s death and the Habsburgs’ attention was concentrated on Hungary
 
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