Deer Gun Harvest Down
Wisconsin
I was surprised to hear that the Deer Gun Harvest was down 14% from last year. 2020 wasn’t historically one of the best . So what is the problem? Our WDNR touted a near record deer population.
The DNR has lost all credibility, you should know that by now. Their number and statistics are meaningless.
Did they release the metrics for does and buck harvest for gun opener even? It is still going on....
Funny, going into the season the deer population was at a critical high according to the DNR.
I believe it was best said that the same people who gun hunted, are those who took advantage of the crossbow season that allows them to hunt the rut. I'll repeat. I was wrong. I never believed so many able bodied people would hunt with the weapon, and I didn't give its effectiveness enough credit. However, I don't want to join the piss and moan committee. I'd rather induce change, and I think that happens through legislation, and unfortunately that will be a tough endeavor. The fact is, there are less deer statewide, and there should be some serious considerations to allow those areas in the most need, to be replenished. The areas of concern and most talked about, are the northern forest and public hunting grounds. Ironically both molested by hunters who still want what's coming to them, and higher predator numbers than ever before. Blame goes to many things, but hunters themselves rarely take credit, and we are the highest performing management tool, and that includes partaking in mismanagement prescribed by the DNR who's difficult job is to please everyone. There's your apathy. It goes to those who have very little choice in what they get to hunt on a low budget, and that is quite frankly a bad deal for many. I'll repeat. I was dead wrong.
CDACs are a JOKE ! I own land and have hunted the central forest area since 1972, Particularily the Clark County Forest area ! The past 10 years I have seen a steady decline in deer sightings !! The past five years i have contacted our CDAC for the area, I have explained my longevity in the area, Along with my comments about the steady decline, I have been pushed aside each year< I asked the committee if anybody has even stepped in this area, NOT ONE HAS< They aLL HUNT OR LIVE IN THE FARM AREA ! But they no better ! Archery hunt this year was t6oughest ever, Since 1972 !!!!! Opening weekend rifle hunbt,4 guys, Youngest is 65 by the way, Most have hunted area for most of my time here, NO DEER SIGHTINGS PERIOD ! Will more than likely be putting 40 acres for sale soon ! Surrounded by thousands of acres of county land !
Remember, hunters demanded change and they got it. CDAC, Change of management Units, No in-person registration, crossbows for all, etc.
What did you expect?
Smokey is surly right about that and here we are.
The stand alone opening weekend harvest numbers don't mean squat. You need to look at all numbers and metrics associated with such information. As an example, were the separate firearm license sales also down, and by what percent? Additionally in reality, with the registration compliance factor, any harvest numbers are just a guess. Why is one part of the state harvest up, and another down? ETC. ETC.
Been saying it for a long time about the whitetail population or lack of, has been in trouble for years, even beginning on private lands. Don’t know where, how or who they are listening to but the DNR couldn’t be more wrong.
The numbers are lower, however, are they lower than management objectives?
Deer herd numbers, not asking about kill numbers.
Sundays high winds really hurt the count. Predators? yep and how many here hunt coyotes? Lease and land costs are thru the roof creating limited access. more and more guys are trophy hunting and are willing to eat tag soup. those with land, what have you done for habitat improvement ever? Visual blocks from roads, waterholes, thermal bedding plantings (norway spruce) , soft mass trees? ect. too easy to blame the WDNR for everything, every year. Ban scopes on xguns and 200 yard ml would be great, dont hold your breath.
I wouldn't worry about the recorded harvest. That's only the deer that got registered. If you add in all the deer that don't get registered, the harvest would be right up there.
I bet the amount of people not registering animals would be astounding. I work with a lot of females that do not hunt. It's amazing how many of them unknowingly rat on their spouse and kids for various violations. Not registering, baiting, filling friends tags, after hours shooting, etc. They don't know the rules and they just continue to talk. Just yesterday I had a coworker talking about her daughter hunting without a license, shooting a deer in the dark of the morning and her son not wanting to register his deer because then he can't shoot another buck this weekend. Now, I think she actually knows the rules. The other ones are usually in the dark and think their hubby's are saints. I should probably say something but I have to work with these people. I just hope they get pinched someday. Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to deter them either.
Darin- i hate to say I know of a few myself. I wish people cared more about doing the right thing. I bought two doe tags for my bigwoods County and I refuse to use them. Then you have guys who don't have them but are still shooting them.
They do not care how the deer are killed, herd management is based on licenses issued. If their estimates reveal numbers below objectives, they will simply decrease opportunity.
License sales were down 1.5%
And, if they need more killed, they will increase opportunity.
Generally through more antlerless permits.
With license sales down, that provides the managers an argument for more wolves and other predators. You do realize for many years the department has been getting infiltrated with those with more Liberal views.
That should please those of you who voted for liberals, just as did the HSUS and PETA.
5 posts to get your thoughts across? You know you can edit a post and put them all together don’t you?
More deer killed in the Northwoods!
When the dnr switched to call in/online registration first for turkey harvest, soon there after they verbally stated that they factor in a 14% non-compliance rate for registration. That was what? maybe 150,000 to 200,000 turkey hunters. What do you think, as they never said, or least I am not aware of, what do they figure the non-compliance registration rate is for 600,000 deer hunters? Hypothetically, 14% of 600,000 deer hunters would equal 84,000. Now not all 600,000 hunters shot a deer, but lets say an average of 200,000 deer are actually shot, that would still equate to 28,000 not registered. Again, all hypothetical numbers, but still means their harvest numbers, are at best a perhaps somewhat educated guess.
There were more than likely the same amount of non registered deer last year and the year before that.
The kill is what the ethical hunters are reporting so is still a barometer
Jake, we know you are trying to protect the crossbow and its usage. Money rules and will win every time.
passinhell, this may come as a shock to you with your detectives skills, but Jake passed away last year from a heart attack. As they say, " Just so you know"
passinhell, this may come as a shock to you with your detectives skills, but Jake passed away last year from a heart attack. As they say, " Just so you know"
Jake? Sorry I meant Jack and hate this auto correct. Sorry Herb about about this dude you speak of. Was he a friend of yours?
The number of folks in the north woods not registering their kills is high. Locals and weekend warriors both the same. Also hear more and more folks not buying tags until after harvest if hunting private land. These new rules are not good for the DNR or the hunters. Except for the guys that hunt areas a ways from registration stations. We had a 30 minute ride to register. Some nights it was a pain i will admit.
Liberal Mindset..... haven't heard or been told by anyone anything you have mentioned, the majority of hunters are honest and follow rules & regulations.
Wouldn’t a decent person with this amount of knowledge regards illegal activity better serve society if he were giving this information to authorities instead of posting it on the internet?
Hey liberamindset don't give me that 30 minute drive/ hassle argument to register deer. The way it worked with in person registration was you had until 5 p.m. the Monday after the 9 day season closes to register your deer. I'm sure you drove for beer, food etc at least a few times just as far
Old hunter. More deer hunters more violations. It's simple math. I would expect between 15-18 percent of deer not reported. Especially the baiters.i saw so much over baiting this year it made me sick. They call themselves hunters.
I don't think we could go back to in person registration. It's just to much to deal with for today's "hunter"....
Retro they never will go back. They should but they won't. Today's young hunters sit over bait playing with their phone/ Facebook/ online games and put little or no effort into actually hunting. When they do shoot a deer they pull up to it with a ATV. I've seen them this year haul them out guts and all. They care less driving by other hunters and doing all that noise and disruption. It just sickens me to see the young modern hunter these days. One place I walked to on Monday in private land to see if they wanted the gut shot doe they wounded the day before. Huge blind in the woods raised about 15 feet above ground on stilts. Big wood box to sit in. Heater and portable tv inside. Outside 2 mineral blocks and a bathtub size pile of corn and apples. A literal trail leading to it from hauling bait with a ATV. No one there. In this 60 acre piece they had 3 such places. 3! The neighboring land owner reported it to a warden and his reply was I'll try to check it out but that stuff is so rampant he could not keep up. Said he would put it in his radar but no promises. I'm seriously thinking of giving up rifle for good.
I like being able to register with my phone. But here’s a few things I’d like to change. 1) Get rid of the paper tags and re-issue the vinyl tag again with a perforated portion that is validated with the date and time of harvest then detached and secured to an antler or ear of the deer. 2) Halt all license sales at 0600hrs the day of the opener. 3) Eliminate Group Bagging. It encourages greed, violations, and it discriminates against the lone hunter.
Wow I had no idea group bagging was legal.
Group bagging legal for rifle and muzzle loader only
That's bananas. I was hunting 200 yards from my buddy last season, I shot a buck and before I could climb down another one came trotting along (probably pushed to me by another hunter). I guess I could of shot both of those bucks. How bout that. I do not like that law.
Let's say I fill my tag on the opener. Could I go out with buddy the next day and we both sit in stands near each other, and I can fill his tag for him if a buck walks into my shooting lane?
Reading the regs, it looks like that scenario would be legal. How bout that.
A further point on Group Bagging. It’s not legal during the Archery/Crossbow season, thus it should be eliminated across the board.
Vilas as long as you are within visual or voice contact it is legal. Using walki talkis cell phones or any electronic devices to group hunt to communicate is illegal. Well that's the way it's written anyhow.
It seems group bagging historically was more about camps and deer drives.
DNR won't be happy till there is 3 deer left so they can auction off 3 tags to the highest bidder. And the insurance companies will rejoice.
Camp meat doe was tolerated at one time also in the camps. Not sure it was ever officially considered legal though before my time.
Back from deer camp in Sawyer County. Started Friday before opening day with finding out my camera was stolen, ass holes. Saturday morning drove around to see where others were hunting to know the areas we were going to hunt. One guy on public saw a deer, 4 of us saw nothing, 1 guy on private saw 6. Sunday, no deer seen for public guys, 2 for private guy. Monday we had 2" of fresh snow and all were excited to see what we had out there for deer. I went 3 miles back in and cut 2 sets of tracks, others had the same results where they hunted, very few (one or two sets of tracks), no large tracks, no fresh scrapes, very few rubs. Tuesday, 2 deer were seen on public, o1 on private. Wed. I went into a spot I two vehicles were parked Friday prior, but found they never hunted it. They sure did a lot of clearing of lanes not to hunt it, but they did not go in far. I went back in farther and finely found good buck sign and deer sign. Sucked because it was the last day there. My take on the public forest areas from central North? not a very viable deer population anymore to hunt. The owner of the cabin we stay at said there were more people ?bow? hunting than he has ever seen. I found very little rutting activity and very few large animal tracks. Generally I can find decent enough sign in areas that keep my interest, not this year. Worst I have seen in 47 years of hunting. My son talked to a guy that I know had his bait pile out at least 3 weeks prior. The guy said his bait has hardly been touched and rarely has to add to it. Other camps said the same thing about sign and sightings. Very very sad what has happened to our deer herd, makes me sick and disheartened. My feeling is we are seeing the final outcome of the full xgun inclusion, wolves, tribal harvest and poaching. I think opening day I heard 4 shots and maybe that many every day we were up there. Never saw deer on vehicles or hanging in camps. Wednesday when I came out of the woods I drove around miles of forest roads and saw only a handful of fresh tracks in the snow that had been there since Monday. I do have to say from bowhunting in the central forest's of Clark and Eau Claire county's, it isn't any better. Xguns have really F'd up our adult buck population. Greedy hunters, non registration of animals, wolves etc have F'd up the total popultaion. I can see why WI is no longer a deer hunting destination. I am just sick after this year and last is all I can say.
Just checked the deer harvest as of Nov. 23 Gun - 85,860 Bow - 35,621 Crossbow 52,523 So the crossbow & archery season killed more deer (88,144) to that date than gun.
This is not news, eventually this Wisconsin deer hunt will be high fence, thanks to Walker and Kroll the deer czar.
Live2, yep those are my findings in my area also, funny the so called hunters I ran into were complaining about numbers and size of bucks yet there were using crossbows! The "masses can be asses" for sure on that note. Rut activity is a joke anymore at least on public the crossbow has ruined archery and spread into the gun season. It's time to limit its use or season length at least on public land.
Well, I hope none of this is a surprise.
I’d like to see the crossbow season limited to October 1- 31st. Any thoughts ?
Sure, on public land since that is where the issue exists.
October 1 through October 2. Done deal!
The issue is not and will not be limited to public land. Public land is just the first place where these things materialize. It is time for people to start thinking beyond their noses. Had this been done in 2013-14, we might not even be talking about it now.
Live2Hunt, I'm almost glad I never got to hunt when the hunting was better, because when I read your post I just think "yep, that's normal!". Just seeing a deer in the distance on a sit is a huge win for me and gets me excited. I laugh and cry a little when I read advice about "spooking a deer on the way to your stand." I can't imagine just walking to your stand and encountering a deer.
My only saving grace has been snow and full day scouting then immediately hunting that sign within the next few days. At least for does as they seem to be in the same area for multiple days. Only seen two bucks this year in person (both spikes) and one is in my freezer. And I have most definitely put the hours in. A total of three weeks off work, just about every weekend, and a couple morning/night weekday sits close to home every single week since the opener.
I've changed my tune and am now driving 1hr+ to hunt where there are doe tags. RIP my wallet at 15mpg. It's the first time there are doe tags in a few years, so the doe population is at least somewhat viable. Granted after this season, I'm sure they will all be dead so this is a one-time thing. MI DNR goes from "not enough deer to shoot ANY does" to "anyone is allowed to buy TEN doe tags and bait them to death". MI DNR is making the WI DNR look pretty good.
And yes, I know I'm guilty and contributing to a deer herd in decline. I am tagging does with a bit of guilt. But better me than the master baiters. At least that's my selfish justification that I tell myself to try to convince myself that shooting these does is OK and not hypocritcal. Deep down I know I'm part of the problem, though.
Vilas…”MI DNR goes from "not enough deer to shoot ANY does" to "anyone is allowed to buy TEN doe tags and bait them to death". MI DNR is making the WI DNR look pretty good “. Nothing new here, Wisconsin DNR did that years ago, way ahead of MI in that department.
Tagging does is largely how herd numbers are regulated, why feel guilty?
I have always said, xguns belong on the gun tag and limit the season way down. Cant even stand to look at those ugly things. It is a culmination of a few things that screwed the deer herd, but you can physically see the effect xguns has had on the adult buck pop. Disgusting.
Missouri, feel guilty because that specific area doesn't have much deer. There are a lot of does concentrated in a small ag area, so they sold unlimited doe tags for the whole DMU, no public vs private distinction or quotas in an effort to simplify the regulations. Because goodness forbid people spend 30 minutes and just read the hunter's digest each year . You can grab it for free at the gas station and do it on the toilet!
Then again, my local lake has a special walleye slot different from the county. NO ONE follows it or is even aware of it , and the WI DNR actually does a really good job at making specific lake regs easy to read and find online. Nevermind the sign at the boat launch pointing it out.... People are so lazy or wilfully ignorant of the rules. I guess I can't blame the DNR for simplifying regulations for the lowest common denominator of hunter/fisherman.
Live2Hunt, my idea for a compromise is let the crossbows in archery season, but they burn your firearm tag. Obviously never gonna happen, but seems reasonable to me.
Allowing crossbows during the rut will lead to the demise of an archery season. That is already happening, we simply have not yet seen the end result.
It's true, CaptMike. I pulled a bunch of cards today and found three crossbow users during the rut when I've never had any pics of other hunters at that time. What suprised me was the demographic - these were all 35-50 year old men from what I could make out from the pics. Really loved placing most of my cameras up high this year and people and deer not noticing.
Only one camera stolen and one that was literally stabbed, lol. And those were both placed at waist height. Good thing I buy the $25 cameras..
Antlerless tags are specific to public and private and neither are unlimited.
Hey skook, I was referring to MI. They have a "universal anterless license" and each hunter can buy up to ten. $20 a pop even out of state. Not sure if this is new as of this year or not. You can use them in any DMU that allows them, including a few UP DMU's as of this year. MI also doesn't require registration, so they got no idea how many are being used where. I guess they probably have data on where they were sold?
I bought my tags at the local gas station, which is minimum 40 minutes away from anywhere you can use the "universal anterless licenese", I asked the lady there how much they sold and she laughed and said "a lot".
"I asked the lady there how much they sold and she laughed and said a lot", that right there is one of several reasons we don't have the deer we once did Vilas... it's called greed and gluteny! Just bc somebody says it's OK to go out and shoot every deer they see doesn't mean they should. Unfortunately some people aren't bright enough to figure that out until the damage is done and beyond repair. We are our own worst enemy!!!
November ×2
I have 2 doe tags for my county and I will absolutely not fill them. I wish people cared enough to do the same.
I haven’t used a doe tag in at least 15 years. Probably never use one again.
I’ve always scratched my head when I hear the plan of buying doe tags with the purpose of not using them.
The DNR must chuckle at that move, they applaud themselves on the public wanting these herd reduction tags, then issue more than the few that won’t use them, gain extra revenue, and laugh all the way to the bank. Hunters need to stop buying licenses period, then the policies might change because of the loss of revenue.
And people will continue to bury their heads in the sand.
*"Bitching on this site will do nothing"
* " doesnt have any impact on me "
* " I'll never tell anyone how to hunt or what weapon they choose"
* " embrace technology "
The acceptance and justification list stated on this site goes on and on . Enjoy what you've allowed . We are one or two severe winters and a few midge infestations from some major deer herd reduction.
If the harvest in the north is up, it sure wasn’t on public land. Sawyer county alone was selling 11500 doe tags for public. That’s a real number. I kept thinking maybe lockdown, too close to end of rut, but there was just no sign seen by me or anyone else in an area 8 miles long by 5 miles wide that showed a population of deer, or adult buck activity. 3 weeks before the gun season some trails had tall grass on them. All those roads were beat down bad the Friday before gun. Another thing I thought was odd was there was no wolf sign. It’s bad, it hasn’t been winter kill, it’s the same conditions I found in 3 other county’s during bow season and the only way it will end is when the easy way hunters, slob greedy shooters, and the tribe have nothing to shoot. The wolves will either starve or move and live on private lands more south of there range. I know in my gut we are now seeing an issue with adult buck populations because of the xguns. Clark county looked like opener of gun season the first weekend of November.
We are spoiled to a degree . In the early 60's we had back to back brutal winter's . The following year 6 of us hunted Taylor County. No one saw Deer on Sat , Sun , or Monday . Uncle Rich spotted 2 Deer tracks Tuesday & my DAD & Rich followed them for 5 hours with no luck .
We left for home Wednesday after not seeing a single Deer .
Stopped at my taxidermist with a friends deer. In talking, he stated his gun kills were way down, but his "bow" kills were more than ever. I opened up my mouth and said, thats what happens when you allow those stinking crossguns in the season. Whoops, he has gone to a string gun after years with a bow. Lots of dead air on that one :)
My nieces husband said it all on thanksgiving day. I talked about xguns and he said laughingly “they are so easy to shoot deer with, that’s why I went to one”!!! Hunting to hunt is gone in todays world.
My nieces husband said it all on thanksgiving day. I talked about xguns and he said laughingly “they are so easy to shoot deer with, that’s why I went to one”!!! Hunting to hunt is gone in todays world.
Bow and arrow hunting is continuing the decline. Most on here support and enable the scoped and cocked crossbow during archery seasons, they keep silent. Remember when I first mentioned the bow and arrow hunting decline and many of you emphatically said I was wrong? What you say now?
How will the DNR Propaganda man Pritzl spin this season.
Weather was almost perfect, they used the latest season could open bs last year.
No one give a hoot about COVID.
The only one they can use is that the curve is moving to earlier kills due to the crossbow, so much for the 9 day “traditional “ we can’t ever change. They changed it and everyone is to dumb to know any better.
But I’m sure the antlerless and holiday hunts will go on as planned.
Stop feeding the DNR machine, hit them where it hurts.
My buddy told me that he was thinking of going to a crossbow. I laughed and said if you do, you will be hunting alone. He laughed but realized I was serious. LOL.
Do the math. Gun season is 90 hours. 9 days x 10 hours each day. How many each hour. Or each day.
"I laughed and said if you do, you will be hunting alone." I share that sentiment. Unless one of our hunters is physically handicapped and unable to use a vertical bow, there will never be one on our property. We are already seeing the results of crossbow use by neighbors. The number of 2.5 year old deer they are killing is maddening.
I get the crossgun issues Mike. I would not allow it in any property I own. THEY NEED THEIR OWN DANG SEASON. NOT THE RUT.
I agree, however a lot of camps will get smaller. By the way, I threw the Libs/PETA out too.
"THEY NEED THEIR OWN DANG SEASON. NOT THE RUT." Trickle, I and others fought this very hard. We knew this as we studied other states that had implemented the crossbow into their archery seasons. There were a number of people who gave me hell for my stance on this back in 2013-14.
Until you buy others licenses you have zero business telling them what to shoot.
It’s much easier just being a good neighbor and share in each other’s successes.
The argument I hear from the crossgun crowd is this Mike. If 100 deer are killed with a crossbow they still would have been taken with archery equipment. They the cross guys really believe that. There are some in the group I talk to who are honest. A couple said I would not have even gotten a shot at that buck with my compound.
It is just what I heard when compounds came on the scene.
I have no issue if an individual is physically handicapped either. They should have that right to choose at the point.
I’ve stated this a million times… the modern compound with all it’s advancements is still a much closer cousin to the trad bows than a crossbow is to the modern compound. It’s undeniable what the modern crossbow is doing to the buck kill in WI… the hard harvest numbers don’t lie, and the anecdotal evidence from literally everyone that way more mature bucks are taken now with the crossbow… one of my best friends… a very successful archery hunter for decades switched to a crossbow a few years ago for the sole reason it’s easier…upon taking his 170” buck this year his words were “I could never have gotten a shot off with the compound as he had me pegged” … good thing his weapon was already shouldered…
I think we are too few but if we can find a organization with some clout maybe it can be done. The xbow is here to stay i'm afraid. The only hope is to push for a separate xbow season like with blackpowder. They need to be taken out if the rut. My only thought to get help with this is the rifle hunters. There is a large contingent that rifle hunt only. They would be on our side I assume. But where to start?
The changes that need to be made will not be stomached well by most hunters, no such thing as half pregnant.
Antler Point Restrictions. Usually implemented by requiring a legal buck to have a minimum number of points on one side (usually 3 or 4)
I don't see that working in our state. Afterall a bull elk that moved south couldn't even make it 30 minutes into gun season. With call in registration to boot I just don't see antler restriction working. The crossbow crowd is about trophy animals in rut anyway. Antler restriction would not faze them a bit as that is not what they want anyhow. Restricting gun hunters only gives the xbow people more advantage. One buck season may work but legal group bagging would have to be eliminated. Then that would cause more non hunting wives and kids to be bought license for the xbow guy to fill with a gun buck. Too easy to do that with call in registration if they call at all. It's a real catch 22 situation. All I know is the xbow hunters are taking away quality hunts for the other hunters. The real archers, the rifle hunters and the blackpowder people. Why should the xbow hunters get first crack before the rest? What makes them so special that they basically can hunt the rut with what amounts to a short range rifle?
Just shut the xbow season down at the end of shooting hours Oct. 31st. Reopen it Dec. After blackpowder. If they want to hunt the rut they will be forced to hunt it with real archery equipment.
Trickle, that argument from the crossers is without merit. Many of them are/were poor bow hunters and gun hunters who seldom, if ever, killed deer. They are simply looking for an advantage. Without that advantage, they would go through most seasons without getting a deer. And, having a crossbow license does not stop them from getting a gun license. The crossbow season was implemented by legislators in 2013-14 and not by the DNR. Because the crossbow has its own license, that season can be changed by the DNR. However, that would be a tall order for any change. As you said (and we thought about in 2013) the gun hunters would be the one group with the best chance of effecting the crossbow season. That too would be a tall order to fill. There is no statewide association, group or other organization that specifically represents gun hunters. It would take a lot of work, money and a very well thought out approach to get enough people on board for something like that. Other than gun hunters, the WBA would probably be the best starting point. In years past, they too were much maligned and not supported in their efforts to fight crossbows in the archery season, even by a fair number of members of this forum.
Starting a petition with thousands of signatures or flooding the CDAC meetings with crossbow complaints would not even faze the DNR. The one and only thing that would get their attention is loss or revenue.The bread and butter financials is the gun deer revenue. If enough gun deer license buyers finally say screw you I'm not buying is the only way to get their attention. Which I have no idea how a grassroots movement in that could start. I'd like to hear any suggestions you all may have.
Well Mike true xbow guys for the most part are opportunists. I totally agree that they would not be afield if not for the xbow. WBH association is where it could start then. Give them enough money and legal aid to pressure the politicians into change. I'm sure they would go for it if they had the resources. They could push their members to vote for or against certain politicians etc. Purchase ads, file lawsuits etc. If the WBH association could be convinced that donations from a true archery group would be used it for limiting crossbow hunting and it's negative effects I bet even gun hunters would donate. Call it the Archery/Rifle hunters alliance of Wisconsin to limit crossbow use. Ask them for a web page and each person or group can have their name posted as a supporter if they want. I'd certainly donate $100.00 toward it. Or more if people want to. First thing is to approach the WBH association about it. I'm willing to do that if support is shown. Bounce it off them and see. P&Y would probably be on board with funds also. The only way is to get the politicians balls in a vice and file lawsuits. Which takes $. My my they could really put the hurt on with funds to do it in my opinion
The original topic was deer numbers down but seems like more of a Xbow discussion. Yes, I agree that xbows are playing a significant role but I think the amount of available tags, primarily doe tags, is more significant than xbows. Just seems to me the dnr decimated the herd in the 2000's with all the available tags and has never recovered.
Xguns are reducing the adult buck population, doe tags are reducing numbers of deer. One public land doe tag in some hands are worth multiple with the registration as it is now.
True true true. Alot needs change. Starting with xbows is just that a start. One step at a time. The impact of the xbow is front and center. Attack that first then move on. Look at the numbers. It's black and white
Need to take off the "in person" registration blinders. It is just as easy not stopping to register than not calling it in. Also, you need to stop thinking hunters need strict regulation otherwise they will be led to a life of crime. Those who cheat, will cheat regardless of rules. The only part I would agree with is some sort of tag to be on the animal while transporting( not dragging). There are other states who don't require "in person" registration and their jails aren't full.
Jail? Please. The average fine for possession of a non registered deer is $100.50 and court costs if you fight it. Most times they don't even confiscate it. There is no bite to non compliance. Jail? Give me a break
It’s equivalent to a speeding ticket
It is no longer gun season, it is any weapon season that was untouchable to be changed.
Well the state changed it without most hunting Einstein’s even knowing. It’s now the crossbow season, and it will become a rut tradition in many camps. First archery season gone now their working on what used to be the gun season.
Southwestern Bayfield County. Spent most of gun season still hunting / walking. Only kicked up 2 deer opening morning. Did not see another deer all season. Spent every day except 2 days in the woods. Covered around 15 miles according to basemaps. Found a few ridges that had scrapes. Did not find many rubs. Also did not see 1 wolf track. Areas around lakes hold alot deer. Its normal to count 20-30 deer on the way to dinner. 5 hunters in camp saw 8 deer total. Wasn't much of a hunt this year but still had a good time with family and friends. Looking forward to next year already.
Relax....... Some of you have no sense of humor or sarcasm.
Nothing will be taken away. As bow hunters I am afraid it will get worse. Liberal mindset is to not take away but to give more opportunity. If the gun season is down and the gun hunters want a better harvest the season will change to allow gun hunters a week before the normal gun season. It’s the future as it is the safest political route, they don’t take away they just add more opportunity at the detriment of the smaller group. And crossbowers will not fight an earlier gun season because they have already showed it’s about the ease of kill, not the hunt.
I also believe nothing will change. In the grand scheme of things I don’t believe the DNR really cares about the quality of the hunts in the given seasons, they are about managing to a herd number in a given area, that’s it, and whatever means it takes to achieve that they will use it. And even if they wanted to manage to a better buck to doe ratio, do they care or even know if those bucks are 1.5 or 2.5 or mature…
Flooding CDAC's about anything other than antlerless quotas doesn't do any good. They have no authority on anything else. Pretty much all of the issues you guys are talking about are controlled by the legislature, not the DNR or the CDAC's.
Fresh off the presses for the 9 day any weapon season.
So much for the argument on crossbows shooting all the bucks.
Buck harvest only down 1%.
LOL, Northern forest is down 11.4 percent. 1%?
Northern forest any weapon 9 day hunt buck harvest UP 11.4 %
Sure looks like a - in front of that 11.4. Not many above it without a - symbol in front.
What is the 5 year average for the northern forest zone 1+1=4? Use your reading glasses.
Before anyone celebrates the Northwoods deer harvest increase, remember 2020 was abysmal. We couldn’t get a whole lot worse or have had a winter like 2019-20 with a WSI that was higher. The WSI was over 100 in much of Bayfield County and the surrounding areas. The winter of 20-21 was mild so a bounce was likely. For Bayfield Co and that bounce was a meager increase 49 total bucks equated to 3.4 %. Wow big f’n deal ! Adjacent counties were similar. We’re still 18. 2 % below the five year average and even farther below the 10 year average.
Doug ,have to agree somewhat with you take on Liberal mindset but if its legislatures that decide than that has come from the so called conservative camp, sad but true.Most liberalizations of equipment use usually come from republican backed politicians at least here in the upper Midwest.I don't think the crossbow abuse came from any liberal party members. I don't agree with much either does in the way of outdoors anymore and in fact fast becoming a political atheist in regards to the two party system.
To many variables in a five year average to make much sense of that. They like it that way
Ya, too many variables. How long have Xguns for all been in the picture? You have to look that far back.
Sounds like the only group in Wisconsin that had a bad year was vertical archers.
Steve, yes your right. Had a quick thought and worded poorly. You got what I meant though, politicians will not take, they will give as it’s safer for there career. X bows will not leave or be shortened, gun Season will Get longer if there is a push increase success numbers. Deer are not viewed as having value. They are seen as a nuisance for auto, insurance, farmers, loggers etc. Dnr will continue to market quantity of kill over quality of kill to sell tags.
Steve, yes your right. Had a quick thought and worded poorly. You got what I meant though, politicians will not take, they will give as it’s safer for there career. X bows will not leave or be shortened, gun Season will Get longer if there is a push increase success numbers. Deer are not viewed as having value. They are seen as a nuisance for auto, insurance, farmers, loggers etc. Dnr will continue to market quantity of kill over quality of kill to sell tags.
"bad year was vertical archers" Does a hunter have to punch a tag to have a successful season? absolutely not.
Depends on how you want to spend your time and how driven you are.
I like bowling but don’t want to throw a gutter ball every time, if your driven you want to keep improving your skill set.
We used to go out west bow hunting elk. Success was getting into the red zone on a called in bull, that is what kept us going. Tagging one was just the cream on top. I have 47 years hunting an 8 mile by 5 mile section of forest and know about every square yard of it. Most years I could find decent activity in most of the places I go into. The area I hunt, the sign I find and sometimes the animals I take keep me up there. This is the first year in all those that I could not find the sign that excited me anywhere. A few years I did not see a deer, most I saw a few (before baiting got going). I will keep going up there, but it is not for the deer anymore as of now. This year really made me think about it for sure.
We aren’t talking bowling now are we!
Nope talking about the will to be better.
Would bowling include automated type tech ball that made it EASIER to bowl higher scores and no gutter balls? There the answer within. Improvement of ones so called skill set has become an excuse to provide more gadgets/hi tech to eliminate the human effort part as much as possible, in regards to bowhunting.
Achieved without great effort; presenting few difficulties.
Webster's dictionary alwaysright. It's under E
Define easier as it relates to Wisconsin deer hunting.
Hmm, better than stick it
The guy is a complete ass. He argues with himself, just to continue making posts. Time to ignore the idiot, the stank of shit surrounds each and every of his/her posts.
He is trying to divide us, he doesn’t even hunt
From: MjF 01-Dec-21Private Reply He is trying to divide us, he doesn’t even hunt
No one has to try to divide this bunch lolol
And it will never change it’s been that way for decades.
It is all due to poor management across the board same as MN. For decades, they gave out way too many deer tags and people filled them. Decades of over harvesting deer and then introduction of wolves was a perfect storm to decimate the deer population. Not to mention bear, cougar, and coyotes playing their roles as well. That being said, predation has played its role, but the fact still remains that over harvesting for way too many years by hunters was the nail in the coffin. Saddest part is, everybody knows that deer in certain parts of both states are almost non existent, but still shoot the first deer they see. The DNR will always lie about the herd size and we can blame them all we want, but when do hunters start taking accountability and start practicing QDM?! Look at the success a few counties have had by basically forcing the DNR to eat their free doe tags.
Yeah QDM has really worked, was QDM has led to the bs we have today.
Game managers long ago saw the value of wolves. When deer numbers get low, wolves move to where there are more. If the numbers get low there, they once again move. Wolves do not trophy hunt. Wolves hunt private and public lands, wherever the deer are. Contrast this to the effectiveness of human hunters who tend not to be mobile, and of course have no right to trespass. Wolves bring in lots of money and job creation, just as hunting license sales do. Not a wolf fan myself, but I can sure see why the Game Managers loves them. And, wolves never complain.
Gojakesgo what counties are you referring to? Here in Wis or Mn? I need some clarification please. Thanks
When you look back at the glory days of harvesting the late 80's and 90's I recall harvest hitting over 400,000 gun season alone! And that's not having any antlerless or blackpowder or nutty holiday hunts either. Just a good old archery and rifle season. Now they can't even hit 180,000 for rifle. I do not recall what year it was but when they hit 100,000 rifle harvest that was celebration and they reveled in the success of management slaps on the back.
MN screwed up putting the gun season during the main part of the rut. Too easy to kill off those adult bucks. I like listening to Ken Norberg on youtube, but I have to keep in mind he hunts deer with a rifle during the most vulnerable, easiest time to hunt deer. Back before as Trickle said, 70's, 80's, 90's there were deer and you always seemed to see them. No bait, no nothing, just good old hunting. You could take a doe or a buck with your bow tag. I would always wait till the bitter end to use it on a doe. Hunting was more enjoyable back then for sure and the DNR did more protecting of the deer health and heard numbers. I recall a sit where I had 15 - 20 deer below me feeding around on acorns on a heavily hunted local public land forest!! Never see that again.
I remember walking to school uphill both ways and using the power lines as a guide to find my way home because of so much snow.
You old guys really need to move on.
Gojakesgo, you nailed it! And I'll give you an example of some counties who did just that "QDM" you speak of. Quantity Deer Management (yes, I said quantity deer management) takes a cooperative of people who may be forced into taking the job of managing into their own hands. Southern Wisconsin for example was convinced through the CWD scare that eradication was our only hope to save the herd and stop the spread. Dumpsters full of wasted carcasses. It was disgusting! I actually did my share to some level, and I regret that. We shot too many deer. We had them tested, and as a result, while none of mine were positive, there were some that were, and that catalyst resulted in even more eradication. Snipers would come in and hunt over bait that was now illegal for hunters, yet legal for them, and kill a target amount of deer. I know of three local places who shot 400 deer off of the smallest amount of property. Well, tags were unlimited, and people not only shot the deer, but they shot their own foot.
Soon, people realized there weren't nearly the same amount of deer on the landscape, and they got wise real quick. Now when you talk about hunters taking control, they did. Private land owners realized that eradication literally meant eradication, and they stopped the slaughter. Of course public land gets beat more than private, but even so, people are not (in large) killing like they could. Of course you have the jackasses who kill more than they'll eat, but even those few people share their bounty, and again, there aren't many of them out there.
With the no baiting rule, which I believe is truly near nonexistent, deer are traveling on a more normal pattern, and deer numbers are rebounding, and hunters are to thank. Of course the herd here is not what it is in the north woods, but it was not long ago that it was flip flopped. In the 70's, you were literally called a liar if you said you saw a deer. Today you're a liar if you don't. So, the point is, we rebounded twice. Once in the early part of my hunting, and again after the initial CWD scare. Most people including myself don't test their deer. The less the DNR knows on the issue, the better. The only plus side to testing, is the no baiting rule, but we aren't going back to that, I'm sure. I know people in true hot zones who've eaten positive deer, who didn't wait for results, and now they said I'd just rather not know, so they no longer test. They of course don't cut with a saw, or eat the prion rich areas on the deer such as the adenoids, spinal column, or the brains, and they're getting by lol.
I made the same statement. People are witnessing less and less deer, yet there they are, trying to get theirs. Now I don't blame them for trying, but I sure wish for their sakes, they'd try hunting where deer actually are, and allow their herd to replenish by not killing more than are already gone.
I'm not sure what is the biggest factor in replenishing the herd? Is it private land? Is it the hunter? I know in this case, it is not the DNR. They simply have too many people to please, and a money driven objective to fulfill. It doesn't just apply to license sales. There are businesses who rely on the revenue that the south once brought to the north, and I think Covid-19 has shown how damaging the lack of tourism can be on a business that's already just squeaking by. The upside, is they don't have the same amount of "city folk" to bitch about.
I was given 4 free doe tags, along with my 2 buck tags for gun and bow this year. I most certainly could eat more. I most certainly could shoot more, but I took 1 doe and one buck. That put a dent in the herd, but I'm sure with the deer numbers we have here, the herd will replenish that "take" quite handily. Most times I won't even shoot a doe. Maybe one every 3 years on average? It can be done, but it takes a group effort. I actually think we blame other things way too much, because as soon as we stop blaming them, the mirror slaps us right in the face.
You had power lines? Taken the easy way out even back then.
I'm sure he jumped on a bus to go 2 blocks.
Wow, even the news gets it wrong, Always said it was up? I'm so confused, help us Always!!!!
Pete, I agree with alot but not all. People cannot and do not have the luxury to hunt land in Southern wi because of the fragile deer herd in the north. For one they will gain nothing on public down here because the public is already at an insane high. Second you either have to own it or know someone who does in order to hunt down here. Second most people don't have the luxury to drive down and host a hotel/motel bill.
It is the people and it is the DNR. The DNR is full of blame on this one and no way out of it. There are so many ways to bring back the herd to what it use to be. Raise non resident fees to compensate needless antlerless tags. Stop all the special hunts. Move the crossbow season into the gun season. Move the gun season into December? Common sense wolf reduction. Stop the party tag system. I can go on. I blame the DNR but I also blame the people.
As I have stated a few times now. I have two antlerless tags in my bigwoods area and I will not use them.
Lots of deer out there, just need to change it up a little
Noc, I'm not telling them to come here silly! LOL! I'm telling them to go somewhere else lol. The hotel/motel cost? Shoot, I had to do it. We all "went north" to hunt deer. The only time you saw deer on vehicles on the interstate, was heading home. No one headed south to hunt deer. The public land has pressure. Of course, but I promise it holds far more deer than the forest does, and that's because of the surrounding agriculture fields. The other part about owning it, is true. You either own it, or lease it. It all depends on what you feel to be worth it. (I suppose to be frank, to kill a deer). I think buying land up north gives you the cheapest rate. Our 80 in Sawyer county was $7,200 in 1990, an acre here in Rock county costs as much as 8 to 14k. Probably the highest in the state. Although I despise leasing, I think that's your best bet....if deer hunting is that important to you? I know this, one turns out to be cheaper in the long run, and you're not taxed, and you're not locked in. If I lost my hunting rights, I'd be hunting public land tomorrow. I'd have to travel further, work much harder, perhaps lower my standards, but you bet your ass I'd kill deer every year. There is so much overlooked stuff that gets only the periphery hunted. Now mind you, I cannot stand the idea of hunting alongside nitwits, but I'd adjust, and I'd find some great hunting. To be honest, I'm only trying to say that you need to adjust and compromise, or continue to complain about shitty hunting. I'm not too old to adjust, and not too poor to cough up some dough. My main point however was humans tend to blame everything else but themselves. If I asked you the expectations of every hunter in Wisconsin what they had, most would say "shoot a deer". Well, that's impractical, and not happening. Now those same hunters with that same expectation, are wanting to do it where the resource is depleted. So now here we are blaming the wolf, the DNR, the liberal tags, the crossbow, and yes, all are to take credit, but seldom you hear the blame falling upon ourselves. I explained during the CWD scare, that I was to blame, and every sucker who took part in the eradication. Now here we are, many years later, and doing quite well. I think it's difficult to imagine what someone else's area is like, because we pretty much imagine it like our own. Well, I have it good here, but I also know what Sawyer county is like, and why I haven't went north in 12 years. I may have helped with the depletion up there, but absolutely not in the last 12, and it was bad long before the crossbow came into the scene. It is now as it was then, the problem of restraint. Just because the tags are available, does not mean it is our obligation to fill them. A side note. At the end of my hunting up there, there was an article in the Winter Paper. There was a family that hunted 80 acres up there. My recollection is they had over 100 tags including bonus tags that they bought. You talk about high expectations? They ended the 9 day season with (I believe) 5 to 7 deer, and several were fawns. Honestly not bad for 80 acres, but what an example of lofty expectations. I hope a few on here remember the article, and how the paper followed their season. That's just one stupid-ass family lol. Now magnify that by every hunter who might lack restraint, and although there are solutions to the problem up there, ultimately it will take "the people" like we did here, to make a difference. Close that northern tier off, tell them all they need to garden the next four years, and I'll prove to them all, (weather dependent), that their herd will rebound. Yes you'll have poaching. Yes the wolves will eat better. Yes the herd will grow. But stay there! City slickers don't want no country folk coming in our saloon. LOL (Kidding, I'll buy you your first beer).
Good points Pete. Close the northern part of the state means less $ for the DNR. (do not resist) so never happen. Down south here the public is crazy. Guy I know hunts a 52 acre piece of waterfowl (wet) production area gun season. Usually the 3 of them have it to themselves. This year 5 trucks and one car already there when they arrived at 5:30 AM. Not even off road parking have to pull off the shoulder to park. They moved on to a even smaller piece and the 3 of them shared it with another group of 3. Crazy.
Yeah, I've heard the public is getting piss-pounded. I believe there's a few YouTube channels out there, who make it look easy, but I feel like there has to be some editing. They themselves have increased the pressure by showing their successes. It's not awful here......yet! I drive by it often. Guys will work together, because they each want to have a better hint, so they cooperate and head opposite directions. There's no easy solution honestly. Everyone has a different perspective, and that makes it very tough to please the masses.
The WI counties that immediately come to mind are Eau Claire, Buffalo, Shawano, Trempealeau, and Waupaca. Areas with large amounts of private land. Selective harvest by hunters on bucks and does. Seems the side effects of the large deer quality also raised land prices in those areas.
Indeed deer are worth more than they should be. Might be cheaper to raise Black Angus. Easier to hunt as well.
To me, a big problem with the bigwoods has been the huge push to make everything totally ATV/UTV accessible. It's reallyt no different than bisecting the land with a bunch of regular roads. I really don't like what the popularity of ATV'ing and has done to the big woods. And not just for hunting. You can't sit for a second on a nice quiet lake in the off season watching a bobber without hearing ATV/UTV's revving everywhere all around you. I certainly don't own the public woods and they have as much right to enjoy their hobby as I do, this is just my own selfish take. In fact, I'm probably in a very small minority that think ATV's are a scourge on public land (both for hunting and just enjoying the outdoors) but wanted to put that out there.
There's no such thing as "going deep" in the bigwoods, if nothing is more than 1/2 a mile from an elaborate and ever expanding system of ATV trails. Both the national and state forests are "guilty" of this. I woud love to see their use limited for hunting purposes. I know this will never happen, though. Because ATV's "bring in business" and are frankly super popular. I see trailers with those neat looking off-road ones around me all year long. Even getting on waders and crossing a stream or river doesn't do it, there's always a back way around for an ATV trail, even if that adds 5 miles to the trip. or the trails start from private land.
And I do get it. They are a ton of fun to ride (own one myself ) and deserve their areas. But they don't need to be allowed on literally every inch of trails thru public land.
You can see this effect when we had that really snowy early winter up here was it maybe 3 years ago? Pressure was WAY down because people could not "get" to their spots. Not because the deer weren't moving or the snow was impassable. Hello, you still got feet! That year was by far my best gun season (both in the buck I tagged and just overall enjoying the lack of of pressure). I had never seen the woods so empty on opening day!
Of course, I feel for anyone that has limited mobility due to health or age, and would not oppose exceptions for folks in that category.
Vilas, I think they close the trails by me in November but I could be wrong. The trails definitely makes access to the deep parts of the woods more accessible.
I use my Chevy to hang sets, check cards, scout, etc. By Chevy I mean Chevrolegs!!!!! Sorry, bad dad joke.
Chevrolegs, haven't heard that one in a LONG time. I too use my Chevrolegs, but that is mostly because my ATV can't go a full gas tank without needing some wrenching. It is now relegated to snow plow duty as I can't get my plow running this year. One day I'll learn that owning one nice thing might be better than a graveyard of dirt-cheap half-working 20+ year old vehicles and boats. But where's the fun in that! (hint: as I get older I realize the fun in that is spending more time on the water and in the woods and less in the garage!)
When your 60+ you will appreciate that there are trails to run 3 miles so you don't have to drag 5 miles!!!
Live2Hunt, I learned that on MI opener this year! Was a few miles in and had to drag out. Trail was rutted and muddy making both my sled and wagon useless. After a few hours of dragging with the sled and making minimal progress (too much elevation up and down), I decided screw it, I'm driving home an hour and getting the ATV!
Well naturally the ignition switch was frozen from melting and refreezing snow and I broke the key off in the ignition switch! Try and fail to hotwire it. Drive an hour back to the spot feeling defeated and just packed the deer out, which I should of done in the first place. Finally made it out of the woods around 5am, home at 6am, good times. I also lost my phone on the way in, making it an extra fun (and expensive) opening day!
I even got the brilliant idea to try to hang the whole deer from a tree (away from scavengers) and deal with it the next day when I could beg someone for an ATV taxi. Turns out you gotta be superman to do that by yourself. Obvious in hindnight....
Off topic - but is there any reliable way to keep a downed deer safe from coyotes/wolves/bocats/etc? Or if not reliable.... at least something that can help? I would think not.... but worth asking
Vilas, we had 2 elk down in Idaho one time. We quarted them and packed what we could that night and return in the morning to get the rest. We had shirts tied onto the antlers hoping Bear, Mountain Lions, Yotes, Fox would not get into them in the night. The next day there was a ring of yote tracks 25 yards out all around those elk and not one was touched. That is the only suggestions I have is to leave a piece of clothing there with your scent on it.
Wow that is a wild story. Thanks for sharing. Glad they didn't take your hard earned elk!
When I hunted Canada the guide I use that term loosely stripped down pulled his t shirt off and layed it on the deer. Good to go he said wolves won't bother it overnight. They didn't. I hunted the gut pile for 2 days as I had a wolf tag. No dice too smart. But I did see a wolverine come to it. That hombre was a bad news piece of muscle. I tried to get a photo of him but at -25 that day my camera was frozen. As was I.
Wow another success with a tshirt, very cool
Human nature is if it doesn't affect you, you don't bother worrying about it. If they were to close deer hunting in the north, it would overwhelm southern public land even worse. Can you imagine what the price and demand for leases would be? You guys in the south may think the collapse of deer hunting in the north won't affect you so who gives a shit...Ignorance is bliss.....
My guess is that many people don't even buy licenses or register dear. I mean there is no back tags anymore to visually see. With the number of people out in the woods not wearing blaze orange I wondered if that was still a thing. Glad not to see too many hunters. As if hunters themselves were fewer, because the ones I seen were complete douche bags. .
No retro, I'm saying currently it is very much a northern problem. (With a hint of sarcasm) there's just no good answer. All said, I've seen the lows, and I know what brought the herd back. There's already far less people heading north, so that natural migration to hint more south is already underway, and will continue to grow, similarly to four legged predators that follow their prey.
What I've noticed and seen in my small corner is that people who own property or a seasonal/vacation cabin up north tend to keep coming up for rifle year afer year, but it's the hotels and motels that were once bustling are now close to empty come the opener. So as Pete said, that migration has already been well underway for awhile. My guess is that these property owners will still keep coming up year after year, however when they retire from hunting, there will not be a generation of younger hunters to replace them.
You can't unite hunters on anything, but I would think everyone in the state who deer hunts should be keenly interested in what's happened up north. I have a friend who's a member of a hunting group in the same big woods area I hunt. There land is managed forest. Forester came up to check on something and told these guys there land was "overbrowsed". Way to many deer around he said. Lol! He offered to get them the paperwork if they were interested to apply for damage permits. It's bizarre!!!! There's an agenda out there to eliminate the need for sport hunting. The wolves are one part of a bigger plan....The north is the current target....
When the foresters in CDAC say "the deer are overbrowsing" I think to myself..... okay, show hunters on the map where the forests are being destroyed by an overabundance of deer, and I promise there won't be any more overbrowsing there for long! No need to give our more tags for the whole county!!
Retro, I've heard there is an idea that the best way to disarm the American gun owner, is to take away the quarry they're after. Then, the backing of the American hunter withers away, and soon to follow, are the guns being toted by others. Now while I feel this is more bark than bite, I have no doubt that slowly but surely, hunting and gun ownership will be chipped away. Vilas brings up a good point. Perhaps these landowners will not be replaced by the next generation? I know neither of my kids hunt, and I no longer go up to the cottage. So yes, if that is any indication, he's probably right. I think you'll eventually find less pressure. When I say "less" pressure, I say less pressure from non residents. While I feel the majority of the people density is in the southern half of the state, I'd venture to say there are more hunters per household the further you head north. So you'll still have pressure from the local populace, because most are unwilling or unable to travel outside of what they have hunted for years. Still plenty of people heading north, but they leave on Wednesday and drive home on Sunday more and more, and they are not being replaced by new hunters at the same rate they're losing them. Perhaps the forest will eventually rebound.....when we are no longer here?
Vilas & retro, I agree! Do they provide any legitimate browse studies?
I've heard that from foresters also, not sure what they are talking about. Eau Claire county forest and Clark County forest has big, big clearcuts that have tons of new browse. There is no why the deer that are there now can overbrowse it. But yet they come out and say the deer are overbrowsing? In the North, if they go into a big winter yarding area, in a hard winter, in the spring, yes, the deer overbrowsed that spot I'm sure. They can't base their findings on a whole herd because of that spot though.
Capt, The only kind of damage permits I was aware of were crop damage permits for farmers. I never knew there was any kind of program like this for forested areas. The guys never mentioned anything about a study, so I'm not sure if the Forester made a visual observation or what? I have no idea how the tags are distributed, how many, who can use them, or if they have to be used during a certain time period. By the way, in my opinion the crop damage tags are another whole can of worms.....
I spoke with several people this year that are trying to find areas to hunt other than the public in southern wi. Some of these guys have been hunting them for years, but due to the extra competition they've had with more hunters the past few years they're choosing to look elsewhere. But I'll also say even with more hunters there are still good numbers of deer on the public. I spent some time scouting and hunting some public during bow season and gun season and there was plenty of sign, but the sign was not in the easy to get to places (actually a little bit was.) Some of the guys I spoke with that are looking elsewhere have been hunting the easy public stuff in southern wi for a while, I don't think they want to put in the extra leg work to get to the good public stuff. When people aren't enjoying the hunt in certain areas anymore for whatever reason (in this case competition) they tend to give up hunting those areas. I think this will happen to most of southern wi eventually then more people will realize they might have to go out of state or look elsewhere for the type of hunting they desire. Southern wi public will only get so saturated with hunters before the hunt sucks for them all.
Hunter, are these people you're speaking with referrring to all-seasons or just rifle season?
Most were referring to the increased archery and crossbow season(s) competition causing a problem for them. Some I know gun/rifle hunt in totally different counties and only do the string thing in southern wi public.
Retro, I also am not aware of damage permits other than those for crop damage. I do know some municipalities issue damage permits when they are trying to reduce deer numbers in areas where hunting is either not allowed or severely restricted by access. More than once I have asked foresters who cited browse issues as a reason to issue doe permits to see the studies they were basing their comments on. Not a one of them could produce a legitimate browse study to show any indication of over browsing on any sort of a large scale. Unfortunately, they continue to use this as a reason to increase antlerless permits on a county wide basis.
It's part of the inherently flawed CDAC seat allocation. Just look at the makeup. While it's frustrating to hear the foresters lament about this browse damage, they are simply representing the plant life of the forest. I am not a biologist nor do I claim to have any understanding of the relationship between deer and trees and plant life, but it is my understanding that deer eat the plants and don't offer much in return (could be wrong). So of course, in every case, the forester is gonna vote for less deer. It's baked into the system! Same for transportation. How is transportation ever going to be improved by more deer? Hint: it's not. This is the inherent bias that is baked into CDAC.
Hunters get 1/7 of the representation of the table for a resource that is inherently about hunting. I think ag deserves a seat at the table, but how does that make sense in Vilas County when there is practically no agriculture !?
And in my case, in Vilas County, the woman "representing" hunters argued vehemently in favor of more doe tags last year. I was flabbergasted when I heard her reasoning that more doe tags will improve the hunting. Talk about being let down by the person who is supposed to represent your interests.
You guys seem to forget that farmers don't like deer. And they have a pretty loud voice in Wisconsin. More tags the better.
What an overpopulation of deer do to an understory.
What an overpopulation of deer do to an understory.
Good pic with the exclosure for comparison. Where is this and how big of an area in this condition?
Hilltop, could you explain what we're looking at here? I'm curious to learn more as I admittedly don't know jack. Where I hunt, all the mature forests look like the front of the picture (except no skinny trees, much fatter and more uniform). Nothing growing under the hardwood trees (mostly all sugar maple) except for maybe a sapling or two trying to fight for some light. The only places with anything green like the plants in the back are spots that have been very recently selectively cut, although eventually it seems the maple always reclaim the open space.
Okay after reading CapnMikes comment, I'm guessing the whole area was green, but there's a fenced off area in the back there and that remains green because deer couldn't wreck it?
These tree people and their studies...haha. Most studies are exclosure. What happens if an animal is non-existent. Very few studies review different population levels and the effects of overbrowse. Even these are flawed as it confines the animal in one particular area over a period of time when we know deer move to certain areas during the year, winter yarding, etc... Hilltop's photo is the tree huggers "shock and awe" of the nasty creatures we call deer. Maybe he's related to the lady who testified at the Senate hearing on EAB a few years back. All in tears that the oak sapling she was holding was the last one alive out of the 20 which were ravaged by deer over the winter. She ironically tossed the oak in the garbage outside of the hearing room.
That looks like a enclosure. What expect when deer are enclosed?
The pic is from central WI and the area is not enclosed. There is a deer exclosure where the browse is seen growing. I merely post it as an example to show what excessive over-browse looks like.
An exclosure prevents deer from having access to an area - as if they were non-existent.
A deer’s world is 6’ and less, so if you have a mature forest, no light reaches the forest floor to grow their food. No food, no deer. Deer are not mature forest animals. When the northwoods was a young forest, the deer thrived. As the forests have matured, the deer numbers have decreased. Take away all other variables that we call out as to why there are no deer up north and lack of food alone with hunting will cause low populations.
Biggest single thing to increase deer numbers where there are no ag fields is logging. I recall hearing that 1 acre of clearcut stumps produces the same protein and minerals as 5 acres of soybeans. I believe that was from a MSU Deer Lab podcast.
I do love trees - they hold my tree stand. I only hug them when I’m strapping the stand on though. For all others, cut them down as their species specific best management practices suggest to enjoy better deer hunting by providing food and cover.
Fire. Nature's way to fertilize the soil renew growth and add diversity and habitat. Wish they would burn more than just these grass fields on public land. Log some big areas then burn them. That is what is needed.
There is more than enough natural food sources for the deer in the north, thousands upon thousands of acres been & being logged plus plenty of burning scheduled every year
Trickle, you speak of Bio-char. I'm so totally intrigued by the concept, that I'm actually creating a double-drum burner with a chimney to create it, and in turn feed charcoal to my raised garden beds. It says that the bio-char once "charged" with organic NPK will lasts thousands of years. Although I love composting, I'm going for the motherlode of yields in the future. Yes, a little off topic, but yes, burning is the one carbon footprint that's completely acceptable, especially if you can burn the greenhouse gasses before they escape. Sorry, I digress.
The number of hunters appeared low and of the ones I seen I'm guessing a number of them wouldn't register a deer even if they had a license.
Here is our Deer Exclosure from this past summer. We had a student from UW Stevens Point come over and deer a brows study, here she is. I love to show this to my neighbors that say we have no deer. West Central Wisconsin - Monroe County.
Yes, you did it. You proved deer eat plants and trees!
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"Human overpopulation is among the most pressing environmental issues, silently aggravating the forces behind global warming, environmental pollution, habitat loss, the sixth mass extinction, intensive farming practices and the consumption of finite natural resources, such as fresh water, arable land and fossil fuels, at speeds faster than their rate of regeneration."
Yep, so deer eat plants and trees. It's what they do. We should build a big glass dome to show what human do to plants and trees.
Exclosure study prove nothing other than if one species were extinct, another would thrive. A worthless waste of time and money. Poor kid has to pay that student loan money back.
It could be worse boomer. From 1980 thru mid 90's Michigan Tech students did a study of deer pellets to get a population estimate. Since no registration to get a count from in Michigan they counted deer terds. For Like 15 years. The data they got turned up to be faulty so they ended it. You can't make some of this stuff up
Don't just pee on the scrapes Pete pee in your compost pile. Pee on your plants. Pee is solid nitrogen. Is sterile when fresh and as it turns to amonia breaks down the nitrogen molecules. In Sweden they fertilize 70 percent of their ag with collected pee. There is two toilets in most homes and businesses now. One for 1 and one for 2. 1 gets collected in it's diluted state then dried and pelletized for fertilizer. And it does not leach in or contaminate groundwater
Lol trickle, if you study bio-char, you'll know I'm not only peeing in a bottle, but I save it, and put it in my compost to inoculate the bio-char. I have other tricks too.
Pee on the plants? My wife said I can't do that anymore in the house or outside!!!
Lol, L2H, I killed a nice hosta that sits off the deck. There's such a thing as too much nitrogen lol
That really made me chuckle L2H.
I was researching northen Wl county by county deer harvest for the past ten years. Couldn't find anything, but what I don't understand the DNR is touting an increase in the buck kill from last year. What was last years buck kill and the years back beyond that. It's very easy to sway stats. I remember a few years ago They were touting an extremely high antlerless harvest, some areas were up close to over 1,000%. Those areas didn't have a antlerless season or very few antlerless tags available so it's so easy to make everthing look bright and encouraging. I also saw this while researching.
Wisconsin’s deer population is at a critical high Advocates say hunters, scientists and legislators all have a role to play in managing the state’s population of white-tailed deer
Published: Friday, November 19, 2021, 6:35am
Wisconsin’s white-tailed deer population is the highest it’s been in decades.
With the opening of gun deer season this weekend, that may seem like good news for hunters, but advocates say the overpopulation is taking a toll on the health of ecosystems and the deer themselves.
From some perspectives it might be too high. Not from mine.
I’m curious as to what people’s expectation is to the number of deer that should be present. Is it based on the number seen hunting, deer sign present, deer harvest success, maintainable level based on carrying capacity of the land, or other?
If you are talking Private land, quite a bit is over goal. If you are talking public? Way under goal.
I’m guessing it is some combination of all those. Problem is, harvest goals are encouraged by the CDAC’s and there are far more seats on a CDAC given to those likely to be against larger deer populations.
Hilltop, from where I'm sitting, the target goal should be the carrying capacity of the land. And we should go so far as to increasing the carrying capacity where possible (bigwoods). I was watching a youtube video yesterday and the folks were hunting PLANTED CORN on public land. WHAT!!?!? That blew my mind - the state was actively making public land better for deer hunting. Just absolultey nuts. Wish Wisconsin would get on board.
I think hunters should get the main say in deer numbers, to an extent. Just like fisherman should get the say in fish numbers. Sure a water skiier might not want a slimy fish brushing against their leg, but I think the fisherman has more of an input there.
I am not a farmer so I admit I don't understand crop damage at all. But if they are giving out crop damage permits, how hard can it possibly be to find some hunters to take out the deer on your land? I feel like complaining about crop damage while also making money off hunting leases is like having your cake and eating it, too. Granted, I also probably wouldn't want random strangers trampling around my land that I use to make a living. In fact, I know I wouldn't. So that puts a big of a nail in my argument. And I also no jack shit about farming or how many farmers actually fall into this category, so I'm really jusut talking out of my ass and may be way off base.
Farmers have big time lobbyists. loggers have big time lobbyists. Hunters have...
Grub - what are your thoughts on how many deer should be present?
Grub - what are your thoughts on how many deer should be present?
Math DNR problem, since 80% of the land is private and basically off limits +high deer herd. There ya go for that one . Public land 20%,low deer herd. If your hunting public only, not to good. DNR estimates, thats the proverbial "ping -pong" match problem with no winner with the deer herd in the State. Seems that the folks in control will not do much to increase numbers on public land except the hunting pressure. It's a zoological desert out there anymore and the agency that should be the public land hunters ally has be come the adversary or one of many.
There's a bunch of planted corn and bean fields on public in the southern half of the state
Per Deer 2000 and a retired game manager, 6-8 deer per sqr mile in the northern woods. In fact, he said 6 deer per sqr mile in some areas is too high. So if you own 640 acres, you can have 6 deer. Hopefully, your does only have one fawn, otherwise, you can't have a buck. Maybe you can borrow your neighbor's buck during the rut if he doesn't have all doe. QDM will be difficult because if you have 2 doe, 2 fawn and 2 bucks... you might have to shoot a fawn buck because the bucks aren't big enough and if you shoot a doe, you'll lose that doe plus a fawn next year.
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But then again, you might only own 300 acres and your neighbor has the other 340 but 100 acres of that is standing corn or food plot. I guess you're SOL. Maybe take up squirrel hunting.
If you think the DNR or any of their game managers give 2 craps about quality deer hunting, I've got a bridge for sale.
Boomer1 I agree. Tags should be available based on the carrying capacity along with Buck / doe ratio for a healthy herd resource.
I think the phrase " quality of deer hunting" is a matter of opinion and interpretation. Even hunters have differing opinions.
The DNR have planted fields in northern elk territory as well. I'm sure the deer hunting isn't to bad on those spots either. From what I understand they are pretty far back and are put in to keep the elk from destroying ag fields. Good luck with that though.
Remember though, if you hunt these areas you are then likening yourself to a food plotter and you are no longer a hunter. HEHEHE.
Boomer, 6 deer per square mile? Unreal. I'm fortunate to live in an area that has a high deer density but if you drive 5 miles things are scarce. I'm one of those guys on the central farmland and central forest border and a good representation of public versus private. The public land is basically the land the private guys go to fill countless doe tags and it shows in terms of deer density. I used to exclusively hunt a public section that was central forest but switched to farmland two years ago which allows two doe tags per hunter. It's crazy how many people pack into this area. I have access to some private land nearby and it's amazing what two years of slaughtering does to a deer herd.
Big 8 - (The DNR have planted fields in northern elk territory as well to keep the elk from destroying ag fields.) This is what happens when you put a grazing animal in the middle of a forest. I talked with a Kentucky elk biologist a couple of years ago and he called our elk introduction, Should I say a joke.
Most states consider WI DNR a joke.
The DNR has been infiltrated by liberals. You can decide if they have a real pro hunting agenda. Remember, Liberal voters are on the same team as PETA, HSUS and Friends of Animals. Ain't no denying it!!
Missouri, political parties has little to do with it. The biggest complaint on this forum is crossbows which was championed by Walker and a majority conservative state house and senate.
Liberals are no doubt more pro-animals and most certainly solely blame for the wolf debacle, but they are also the partyy fighting for keeping our water clean and our forests public . When Trump rolled back a lot of the protections that the clean water act provided and allowed more dumping and polluting of our waterways, I was pretty upset. It's selling and ruining our public resources in exchange for private companies saving money on responsibilty discharging their waste. In our own state here, the republican legislature is doing the exact same thing - preventing the DNR from protecting our waterways.
The managing of our public resources is way more nuanced than liberals and conservatives. Neither political party is a friend of the hunter. Conservative politicans are pro-gun (not to be confused with pro-sound-hunting-management) and are against many regulations that keep our natural resources clean. Don't confuse pro-gun with sound hunting management, because boy are they different. Go ask the NRA. Liberal politicans are often hugging trees for feel-good shit and responsible for crap like very little logging in the national forests.
I've recently started following the baiting rules in MI, and the republican legislature keeps trying to bring baiting back and Governor Whitmer vetoes it. Is Governor Whitmer some big hunter? Absolutely not. Does she care about hunters? I certainly doubt it. Do I like writing anything "positive" about her? Hell no. But here we are where she is keeping baiting out of the lower peninsula.
Neither party cares about hunting or hunters or managing land for hunting. They all have their own interests and motivations that often impact and intersect with hunting - but I am of the opinion that almost no politicians at the higher level of politics actually care about hunting in and of itself.
And of the politicans that do hunt (which are certainly mostly conservative), they don't hunt like you and I. They are paying guides for trophy hunts where all they do is pull the trigger or are hunting prime well-managed private land owned by some rich person. They don't care about about the guy buying a tag and walking into the public woods or the person who is trying to hunt their modest 40.
Ok, politics has nothing to do with it, I learn something every day. Thank you!
Not a rant, good dialogue.
My taxidermist told me that he hunted Missouri all his life, killed the second biggest non non typical in Missouri, hunt's every time he gets a chance when he is not doing taxidermy, said after he killed that big buck that a few year's later he noticed he wasn't seeing the number of deer or turkey he usually See's, he hunt's around 1500 hundred acres of private land, he brought in a trapper because he was seeing way to many coyotes, he was killing everyone he seen, the trapper found a coyote den with 4 pups, he put a trail camera on video to watch that den, and in 30 day's he came back checked that camera, in 30 day's the mother of them cubs was bringing in one fawn a day to her den to them cubs, he hired two trapper's they started trapping in February, that first month they trapped over 60 Coyote's, the second month they trapped 18 coyotes, he said after 2 year's the deer numbers improved big time and the turkey's did to, the trappers caught 9 bobcats and 3 red foxes, them coyotes had gotten out of hand because nobody traps them no more, and they was wiping out the deer herd's, and the turkey population, I never knew one coyote could do that much damage.. but they have video of it all.. he hires trappers every 2 years and very few coyotes are being caught, he killed a 170 class 11 point this year, and I'm sure wolves do 3 times more killing...
Where in the Chequamegon forest is there a corn field planted on public ground?
Wolves get all the hate, but coyotes predate very heavily on fawns. I have seen conflicting studies on who actually kills more deer. I'm sure it's location dependent. From a management perspective, I think the difference is we can reasonably control wolf populations but making a true dent in coyote populations requires widespread consistent skilled trapping. That was an interesting read, stumpjumper.
There's a number of natural openings that they have turned into fields for the elk in the Flambeau Forest. I know of no corn fields. First couple of years they have clover but they quickly just turn to weeds and grass. I put cameras on two new ones this year for elk and managed only a couple deer pics per week. That was on shin high clover, but before any frosts.
You need to set coyote traps If you live on the property you hunt especially because you can check them regularly, sometimes with just binos from the house. Coyotes are still worth trapping and hunting. You can never kill enough of them
Yes, coyote trapping should be encouraged. If you do not trap, consider allowing trappers access to your lands. Trapping is far more effective than hunting when it comes to yotes.
Using a Deer Exclosure is one metric you can use to estimate the deer impact on your woodlands, and also one metric to estimate deer populations. Combine this with other metrics such as: Deer Observation Reports, Deer Harvest Reports, Spring Pellet Counts, Trail Camera Surveys and others to help you determine not only deer numbers and the impact they are having on your property, but also the health of the deer herd. If nothing else, it can show trends of deer numbers, impacts on the habitat, and health. When you go talk at your CDAC and your local spring Conservation Congress meeting you will at least have some data to back up your presentation. Or, you can show up and make a bunch of uneducated comments with no data to back it up (while wearing an orange baseball cap with "DNR SUCKS" hand written on it with a black sharpie) to really make some valid points.
One last thing, the Wisconsin DNR is as respected as any state DNR or G&F in the nation, if not more. BC
Yes, a metric as good as throwing grass seed outside on dirt and some inside on your house carpet. Only thing to prove is seed needs dirt and deer eats food. Nothing in an exclosure study show the suitable population of deer needed to increase plant diversity and plant growth. Deer are necessary to the ecosystem and any study that removes them is foolish. The only thing a CDAC committee would see take from your metric is you have a deer problem. Second, you have to get out of WI to get opinions of our DNR. Every discussion I've had was a negative view. In fact, one biologist I spoke with left because of their views. Same with the G&F wardens.
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Plus, I like my "DNR Sucks" cap but it is camo.
What is really dumb is for deer, the DNR does the opposite that the hunters are saying. The lake my cabin is on, the DNR came in and did a vote with the lake association to see how they wanted the lake managed? Number 1 was panfish, last was musky in the vote. So the brilliant DNR fishery guy came in to "fix" the lake by removing all the musky they could and turn the lake into a great pan fishery. Fast forward 10 years, we had a class A musky lake, now it is below C to non existent. We had 100% natural reproduction on walleye with a great population, now we have to stock because of the exploded largemouth bass population that was controlled by the musky. The panfishing? well, it creates discussion on the lake because we can't find many crappies and bluegills anymore. Before they fixed it, you could go out and catch 100's of nice gill's fly fishing and there was always decent crappie fishing. Not happy with the thought process we have controlling our natural resources nowadays for sure.
If you only had public land to hunt Bow Crazy your high accolades about the DNR would take on a different view/opinion.
Its hard to put the "Genie Back in the Bottle".
The problem in my mind is one that has been brewing for over the 4 decades I have been hunting and that is a total disregard of the hunting public's opinion. The DNR has had a system in place to minimize hunter view point, observations, and opinions. For far to long they have used the false narrative that the Conservation Congress is the mouth piece of the average Joe and Jane all the while orchestrating their every move. For decades those who spoke up against the department were scoffed at, discounted, ignored, branded as malcontents and agitators by the department, the congress and the media. Finally hunters have woken up to the fact that they were nothing more than tools in the DNR tool box. It has finally came to a head with inaccurate population estimates, over harvest, and a few hard winters. Throw in the fact that the Department worked tirelessly to undermine the efforts of the Deer Trustee, to make sure that they would still hold majority control of the CDAC has not healed the great divide between the hunting public and the department. For the record no one would attend a meeting with message written with a Sharpie on a hat. Real Honest to Goodness agitators would order them on line.
The comment about a hand-written hat sure serves to put the writers opinion in perspective.
My comments about the hat were meant as a laugh as I beleieve was also the intention of Bow Crazy. His point was show up with more than a few stories, and it shows that he is serious about managing deer in his area. I do not discount for one minute that attending any meeting with the DNR, CC, CDAC with evidence regarding your observations is important, however I have attended far to many meetings where factual information is totally discounted when some biologists steps up and claims otherwise.
The best I have heard was back in the day when hunters demanded the legislature put and end to EAB. Ron Kulas made a fantastic presentation that clearly showed the relation to car kills and the deer population. When he was asked to provide "his information" to the committee he stated that the information was not his at all and in fact it was information from the WI DNR. Yet during the debate Foresters, Biologists, DNR Secretary, and the Conservation Congress all stood up and said otherwise. They actually asked all in attendance to ignore the data based on the presenter. In essence they said don't believe your "lyin eyes". For the record I did not see anyone in a hat with a message written with a Sharpie that the DNR sucks, however the outdoor media painted the picture of a bunch of Rabid DNR haters placing their own selfish needs above that of the fauna and flora.
HF43
"Or, you can show up and make a bunch of uneducated comments with no data to back it up"
Unfortunately I do believe this happens a lot. In fact I've seen it in person at least a few times. Sometimes the loudest would be doing more of a benefit for hunters if they simply stfu OR had someone else doing the speaking.
HF, I took your comment as joking. I took BC’s as condescending. I certainly could be wrong.
Our WDNR lost a lot of credibility over how they’ve managed or have refused to manage our wolf population.
My comment was meant to be condescending, I apologize for that. My point, what good does it do to sit at a meeting with a cap like that on and say nothing? It does no good at all.
Regarding the WI DNR, I work with hunters, landowners, DNRs/G&F Depts, deer/wildlife habitat manages, biologist, conservation organization volunteers, etc. in 11 different states. I've sat on deer/habitat/deer hunting committees in several of those states. Rarely do I ever hear anything negative about the WI DNR. Most time it's positive comments, or they want more information on what WI is doing. As someone posted above, a lot of the complaints posted on this thread are not the fault of the DNR, it's our politicians you should be complaining about.
I would encourage you to collect deer related data off your property, off the property you hunt if you can. You maybe surprised at what you data shows, or it will confirm what you already knew. Signing up with DMAP is a great place to start. BC
BC again your avenue is hunting private which for all the reasons you have access, folks that are rightfully complaining are mostly hunting public. As far as asking about Wisc what type of groups and who are they catering to in the hunting "camp"? Salad talk. For you the and advanced technology and your private land situation it's great, for a lot of others it's not. Do you understand that or not? How many questions were asked pertaining to public land and managing it for increased deer herd and habitat improvement? I bet little or none of that was even considered. Hunting is a have or have not culture like it or not and its getting worse,I know from your comments which side of the fence you are on and support, try and understand the situation on the other side for a change, if you can.
"My comment was meant to be condescending"
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You really should know who you are being condescending to. I've definitely put in my time and it wasn't for monetary gain, like yours. And your welcome for DMAP
Jeff, trying to educate these people one person at a time gets tiring.
Monetary gain? LOL.I can see this is going nowhere, so I will sign off. I certain understand that each and everyone one of us has difference situations. Consider this, you have 9 months until bow season starts in September. If whatever you are doing isn't working, you are not enjoying what you are doing, you aren't successful, whatever, now is the time to start making a plan to make things better. Life, for the most part, is made up of choices. Start making some choices now to improve your 2022. Or not, it's up to you. BC
Signing off without answering the questions? Weak.
Weak? Me? Anything but. I'm guess I'm back in.
What question(s) do you want answered? This is the original post of this thread; "I was surprised to hear that the Deer Gun Harvest was down 14% from last year. 2020 wasn’t historically one of the best . So what is the problem? Our WDNR touted a near record deer population." The answer to that question is that many, the vast majority of deer hunters don't have the time or aren't willing to put in much of an effort to be successful. Whether they own land, hunt private or public, they simply aren't willing to go the extra step it may take to be successful. I am not saying that about anyone posting here or reading this thread. I am talking about the masses.
If you are asking questions from SteveD, I will do my best. The original question of this thread had nothing to do with private vs public. If it evolved into a public land only thread, I don't notice that. My fault, I'm sure I skimmed over some responses. The thing is, since I live/hunt in the southern part of the state, I hear the vast majority of complaints coming form people that own land/hunt private lands. I do understand the other side. I used to hunt public, I use to knock on doors for permission, I worked at a Christmas tree farm for hunting, I cut firewood with a guy for permission, etc. The only reason I got involved with this thread was about habitat improvement - a guy posted about deer exclosures and was cut off the knees. I responded in support of him and others like him. BC
An enclosure is only one component of any argument that would use it as evidence that a herd is too large or doing damage. Used by itself, it should be cut at the knees. Without an overall picture of the circumstances, it means little to nothing.
I agree. It can be used as one piece of the puzzle. In a prior post I covered that. BC
