CaV: Ra's Al Ghul (Foxerdes) vs Master Splinter (Lvenger)

Splinter was once Hamato Yoshi who lived during feudal Japan and was trained as a soldier in the Foot Clan. He fell in love with and married Tang Shen who gave birth to four sons. However, when his childhood friend Oroku Saki took over the Foot Clan and led it down a dark path, Yoshi felt the Foot Clan had become dishonourable and left the Clan. Saki sent assassins who murdered his wife and then hunted down Yoshi and his sons and executed them for betraying the Foot Clan. Fate gave Yoshi and his sons a second chance at life though as his sons were reincarnated as Turtles and Splinter as a rat in Stockgen Laboratories. They were exposed to the mysterious alien element known as the Ooze which mutated them to human sized proportions and restored Yoshi's memories of his past life. After escaping from Stockgen, he took his sons to the sewers, adopted the name Splinter and gave his sons the names of renaissance artists. Splinter trained his sons in the ways of ninjitsu to protect themselves in a world that feared and misunderstood them.

He personally taught his first students, people who were called the deadliest men on the planet. Ra's has centuries of experience over any living swordsmen and although more experience doesn't directly translate into more skill, it's still worth noting when we overview his combat proficency.

Indeed, just because Ra's has centuries worth of experience at sword fighting does not make him a better combatant than someone with only a few decades of martial arts training in regards to how comic books determine fighting skill. I can bring up Thor having thousands of years of combat experience under his belt yet for the most part Thor chooses to brawl with his foes relying on brute force over skill. As for Splinter's combat experience, though it is not as great as Ra's, he was trained in the ways of the Foot Clan for decades and after being reincarnated has learnt modern fighting styles on top of that so Splinter does have experience going for him too.

In Batman and Robin #23.3 Ra's al Ghul he toys and eventually easily disarms Secret Society Emissary, men raised with blade in his hand. During the very same conversation we learn that Ra's al Ghul trained the very first fencing masters on the planet.

I assume this statement about the Emissary is mentioned in the issue so I'll take your word for it. Still, it is worth noting fencing is ultimately for sport and not for self defence.

Swordsmenship was stated to be Ra's passion and so blade is the most dangerous tool in his arsenal. During the events of Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason Todd, a decent swordsmen capable of fighting supernatural being and cutting entire groups of armed opponents, stated that he would never be able to disarm Demon's Head, not in a hundred years. He only managed to do so because power of the Untitled was destroying Ra's from the inside. As mentioned above he has quite few feats to support his title of one of the most dangerous people on the planet:

Indeed Ra's skill with the blade is his biggest asset against Splinter. However, Jason could have been exaggerating about Ra's proficiency here and even with the Untitled affecting Ra's condition, Jason could have disarmed him. After all, he's been trained by the man who has been capable of besting Ra's in battle multiple times. So far this is just statements, accolades and titles of experience, not feats.

In Deathstroke#20 he managed to fight and outduel Slade Wilson. It's both an outstanding skill and speed feat but the latter aspect of this showing will be highlighted in Speed section. What's important here Slade's state, first and foremost he already lost his eye and had plenty of time to get used to his new body so unlike during his few other fights, he is at his peak performance. Deathstroke is a well established character skill-wise and he often slaughtered entire squads of enemies or killed metahumans using his swords but I'll elaborate later on if needed.

Now at least I have feats to assess though I do have queries with this instance. Ra's beating Slade would be an immensely impressive feat since Slade is a more skilled and deadly street leveller than Splinter or Batman but I find that you've neglected some pertinent context about that fight. As I recall, Slade was performing much less impressively with both eyes since he had gotten used to fighting with just one eye. This was noted when he fought Ra's superior, Batman.

Also, Slade should have still been weakened by Snake Bite's venom and from fatigue as noted when he went up against

Lastly, Deathstroke was still landing some hits on Ra's during their fight so the Demon's Head is not completely immune to getting cut by other skilled swordsmen it would seem.

Last but not least in All-Star Batman #9, he faced Bruce Wayne armed with musket, lack of armor and proper weapon resulted in Bruce' decisive lose:

Bruce managed to survive thanks to special mix of mad-hatter toxin mixed with few other ingredients but the duel remains.

Again this is an unarmoured, possibly unready Bruce Wayne armed with a poor weapon compared with a prepared and ready Ra's Al Ghul armed with the weapon he is most skilled in. The circumstances setting up this fight only favour Ra's. I also find this inconsistent since the same writer, Scott Snyder, had Bruce survive a fight against a more deadly opponent, that being the Talon William Cobb in Batman #2. Bruce was unarmed, had no armour and was holding back to avoid raising suspicion and despite taking damage, he was still able to survive a fight with Cobb by breaking from his grip in free fall and catching a gargoyle.

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Talons have superhuman stats, are well trained fighters and have a healing factor that makes it hard for them to be hurt conventionally. I'd wager Cobb is a much more dangerous opponent than Ra's yet Bruce survived a fight with him unarmoured and unarmed.

Demon' Head can move so fast that his sword and the world around him appears as a blur. It was not the only time he used his sword in a samurai-like fashion, on another occassion he did similar maneuver against Etrigan.Trinity Annual

To be honest I can think of a few peak humans that can move at blur like speeds. Pretty sure Batman has moved at blurring speeds, Elektra can move fast enough that she appears invisible to the naked eye and Katana can stop bullets with her sword. Still, blurring speeds is a notable speed feat to be sure, it's just debatable whether it's actually superhuman speed.

Despite the fact that he caught him off-guard, after the latter was busy merrily murdering League of Assassins members, it's still an incredibly impressive feat if we take into account the distance al Ghul passed with enough speed to make it look like he teleported.

Etrigan was caught off guard as you've admitted and considering his healing factor he's probably the type who would rather take damage than dodge an attack. But the distance Ra's moved to blitz him was quite good for a speed feat. Nonetheless, Splinter has a neat speed feat too. In TMNT #11 Splinter easily reacts to an arrow fired by Karai, who's fast enough to fire 6 arrows simultaneously.

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In the same issue he also fights Alopex after beating a Foot Soldier gauntlet. Alopex is a mutant arctic fox with skill on par with the Turtles and is particularly known for her speed. She can casually bullet time and catch up to a moving van easily. Yet Splinter was able to keep up with her and avoid some strikes before beating her.

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He has quite few minor speed feats like aim-dodging Frankenstein who is a decent marksman himself

Ra's usually moves much too fast even for trained merceneries:

Ra's pretty much kills three of them with one strike before any of them had the chance to pull the trigger or react in any other way. Still those feats mostly showcase his speed, luckily his reaction time and rapidity is furthermore highlighted in his fight against Slade and Bruce. The former is a bullet timer capable of beating the likes of Snakebite, who is fast enough to kill an entire room of people before any of them can react. As seen above Ra's was able to outduel him after a harsh fight just like he outmatched gearless Bruce.

Not bad though Splinter is able to keep up with and even outpace bullet timers in his universe as well. I have some queries about Slade's condition against Ra's since he may have been poisoned by Snake Bite or unfamiliar with fighting with two eyes again. As for Bruce, I'm familiar with nearly a dozen speed feats that blow either Ra's speed out of the water when it comes to speed so I would warn you not to over rely on such an example.

Significant advantage that comes with the sword is often overlooked and comes down to boring statement that it's cutting/piercing damage. Truth to be told, ability to slash your opponent like a butter can really come in handy but let's look at two other factors:

• Reach
• Tempo control

Sabre or fencing sword can be almost 1 meter long, imagine having an arm twice the usual length with one crucial difference - it can easily decapitate your opponent, cut his limb or slit his throat. Range helps Ra's in various ways, it allows him to attack an enemy from relatively safe and keep him at bay. What's most important though it lets you control the tempo of a fight.

What kind of sword does Ra's use then? Splinter will probably be using a katana which is 60-70 cm long according to Wikipedia. However, I don't think the difference in sword sizes will count for very much. It's not the size of the weapon but how you use it that matters. Splinter has managed to control the tempo of a fight against an expert sword fighter like Karai in TMNT #43

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But before tempo, let's start with the fact that if your opponent has comparable physical and you aren't more skilled hand to hand combatant than he is swordsman, you are in trouble. Obviously it's possible to disarm him but under circumstances I mentioned above, it's really unlikely because good fencer will keep you at distance. Not only unarmed fighter will have hard time getting close to an armed opponent but also risks receiving fatal injury or bleeding wound that will weaken him over time. Perhaps a small demonstration of what sword is capable of:

Luckily for Splinter he is a more skilled hand to hand combatant than Ra's is a swordsman so that shouldn't be a problem if Splinter somehow loses his sword. Realistically an armed fighter would have a much greater advantage over an unarmed person but in comics, if you're skilled enough in hand to hand fighting, you can get the better of an armed opponent. Not accurate to real life perhaps but fiction takes some liberties.

Ra's can easily pierce Justifier' skull and helmet, he can just as effortlessly decapitate a men with casual hand movement. Batman and Robin #30

Don't remember the Justifiers having much in the way of durability and Splinter lifting a man off the ground by stabbing him in the chest is just as impressive as Ra's casual decapitation. And that was Splinter as a human before becoming a mutant rat.

It's worth noting that he didn't use mass of his body to gain momentum in any way, mere arm movement was enough to sent the head flying in the air. But killing humans isn't the only thing Ra's did with a blade. On another occassion he killed a Yeti and Parademons:

A yeti is at least as strong as an adult gorilla and seemingly much bigger. They have huge reach advantage and could unhing Man-Bat' jaw with one strike. No matter how big or strong though, a chain can only be as strong as the weakest link and sword' reach and sharp blade is perfect for cutting soft throat.

But unlike that yeti and Parademon, Splinter is not an animalistic brute nor mindless cannon fodder. He's an equally well trained fighter so Ra's will have to work very hard to get a chance at cutting Splinter's neck.

As mentioned aboe he could penentrate Parademon's skin and kill them with one strike aswell. Coming back to tempo though, a swordsmen has much easier time controling if the fight is slow or fast, if the combatants wait for opponent mistake and carefully measure their distance or fiercly engage each other. Being in blade' reach is very risky and so a blademaster can choose if he wants to keep his victim at distance or launch and agressive attack and force unarmed fighter back. Swordsman wants to slow down the fight? No problem, he has the reach and incredibly sharp tool to zone an enemy. A faster fight? Just play a tad more agressive. In a single combat it's not really important but being able to control how fast is the fight going and forcing an opponent back can be crucial in a team battle.

If you're talking about controlling the flow of battle, Splinter's got that down as well. He's more than capable of dictating the pace and flow of a fight too. Going back to TMNT #11, Splinter runs a Foot gauntlet including a giant Foot soldier, two separate armies of foot soldiers and Alopex armed only with a sword and still beats them all.

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Note Splinter disarming multiple opponents like the Foot Soldier and Alopex, controlling the flow of battle so he's not overwhelmed and generally outskilling a multitude of opponents. Only Shredder beat him and Splinter was already tired from fighting waves of Foot Soldiers.

Strength isn't overly useful when you are using a sword, but it still helps when you have to block an opponent strikes. Insufficent strength not only makes it harder to retain balance but results in faster stamina depletion. When two combatants (especially swordsman) are evenly matched, the one with superior endurance will be the one to most likely triumph. Still, before resilience, few notes about lifting strength.

It might look like just Ra's has lifted a grown up man (180-200lbs) and throw him, which is impressive in its own right, but nothing to boast about. What's important is that al Ghul held Jason with one hand and the latter was unable to break free. Overpowering Todd is a tad more impressive, especially if we take into account Red Hood' own feats.

Um I think that is just Ra's lifting a grown man off the ground though. Jason's not struggling against Ra's nor has Ra's physically overpowered Jason at any time. If those scans showed Ra's overpowering Jason in a grapple or bear hugging him so hard he's unable to escape, I could accept that as valid evidence. But Jason is being held by the throat and quickly thrown away by Ra's so I fail to see how that demonstrates superior physical strength. Besides, Splinter has thrown a grown man with his tail.

Sadly, because Ra's' most recognizable traits are swordsmanship and brilliant mind, his strength and endurance are often overlooked. It doesn't change the fact that he possess freakish stamina and durability that allows him to contend even with vigillanties in body armors.

As seen above in Birds of Prey #30 Demon's Head gets hit with a canary cry in a resonance chamber, said attack was compared to a sledgehammer pummeling his entire body. He displays outstanding blunt force durability and after brief moment of recovery, gets up and walk away as if nothing happened.

Nice, that's a good durability showing. For comparison, Splinter has taken hits from Bebop and Rocksteady in TMNT #28.

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These guys aren't the ineffective idiots from the 80s TMNT cartoon, they're powerhouse bruisers who can knock down walls, punch cars across a street and level buildings.

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Taking hits from these bricks is pretty impressive durability.

Scan above comes from Batman and Robin #32. Bruce electrocutes Ra's, who quickly recover and engage in a battle with Frankenstein and Yetis. The impressive part comes next, after brief chase Demon' Head engage in a slugfest with enraged Batman . During Batman' attempt to gouge his eyes out, their fight is interrupted by forces of Apocalypse. The issue ends at that moment and the action continues in Robin Rises: Omega #1. Without taking any break Bruce and Ra's start slaughtering Parademons and Justifiers just to find out that Damien' body has been stolen, that's when Ra's gets shot by a Parademon and survives fall from at least few hundred meters right into the frozen ravine.

Not bad for Ra's endurance at all, but Splinter's fight against Foot Soldiers in TMNT #11 proves he can hold out against large groups of opponents.

Ra's himseld amitted in Batman Eternal #46 that it took him weeks to crawl out of previously mentioned ravine. Just to summarize:

• Brief skirmish and getting electrocuted, followed by short break.
• Fighting an enraged Batman that threatens to kill him and outright tries to cripple him.
• Immediately after the duel is interrupted, takes part in a battle with Apocalypse forces.
• Get shot by a Parademon and falls into the frozen ravine just to crawl out of it.

Obviously this is a really good feat of endurance but I have to ask; isn't there a difference in physical strain between slowly travelling a large distance and exerting your body in a fight? Exerting your stamina in combat requires more intense focus that has to be maintained over the course of the battle. Still, I'm willing to admit this exceeds Splinter's tolerance for endurance. Though I strongly believe this won't become a battle of attrition and that Splinter is capable of ending the fight before his stamina begins to fail.

Just for the record he can fight for few hours straight, as seen during his iconic duel with Batman, when he wanted to test if he is worthy tp be his heir. The original fight started during afterniin and ended up when it was already dark:

".. This long afternoon is filled with the clangor of clashing blades .."

Batman Inc. confirms that the fight was in fact this long, we can see that the duel starts when the sun is still high and ends when its already dark.

If you wouldn't mind I'd like to see scans or an issue number please.

Ra's is hardly a peak human. His speed feats are considerably above that and he overpowered Jason, who showcased superhuman strength himself. I'll wait for your scaling off Turtles but I highly doubt if Splinter is strong enough to get him an advantage in a swordfight.

Peak humans have moved at blurring speeds and Jason wasn't shown directly struggling against Ra's. And since Splinter can break bulletproof mousers, chances are he's got some decent strength in him. As for the Turtles, they're fast enough to dodge bullets and lasers yet Splinter can outpace them in the scans I'll post later.

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Holding his owns sounds fair. Ra's is still superior swordsman and as the fight goes on, Splinter will tire. Ra's is hardly a one trick pony that relies on his skill to win a fight. He has the endurance and physical strength to duel his opponent for a prologned period of time and skill to exploit any mistake. The more tired you are, the more mistakes you make and in a swordfight one misstep can result in weakening, bleeding wound or even lost limb/death.

Based on his swordplay and overall fighting skill, Splinter will be able to end the fight before he gets too tired. I've rarely seen Ra's rely on his endurance and strength alone to beat opponents, he tries to outfight them as well and that will not be an effective strategy against Splinter. Nonetheless, Splinter can afford to take some bleeding damage unlike Ra's. He's taken a sword slash in the arm from Leonardo who attacked him by accident in TMNT #36.

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And since becoming head of the Foot Clan, Splinter's robe is now lined with kevlar which as you can see here helped prevent him from being fatally hurt by a knife stab (TMNT #60)

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Yes, he is superior although Ra's has his own showing against enraged Bruce. It was more of a slugfest among snow drifts, but he still managed to fight evenly and put Bruce on the ground with his punches despite the body armor.

The fight was circumstencial but it should suffice to show that Ra's won't be fodderized.

Yes I would say the fight is very circumstantial and basically shows Batman getting the upper hand over Ra's as well he should. I would hardly call this fight an even one at all. Likewise, Splinter also holds the hand to hand fighting edge over Ra's. Especially in his versatility and flexibility of fighting styles. This is displayed by a masked Splinter in TMNT #21 where Splinter schools the Turtles whilst switching between multiple fighting styles such as Kali, Savate and Wing Chun.

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Ra's has not yet shown this level of fighting skill or adaptability against multiple skilled opponents. Ra's main trump card is his swordplay whereas should Splinter lose his sword, his hand to hand fighting is still more than a match for Ra's.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. Splinter is superior hand to hand fighter but Ra's can stall for a moment and perhaps grab his sword. Still the main reason why unarmed fight will be mostly irrelevant, is that it arguably won't come down to it. There are two scenarios:

• Ra's gets disarmed.
• Splinter gets disarmed or throws his weapon away.

Feel free to prove me wrong but currently there is nothing to suggest that Splinter can consistently disarm Ra's al Ghul. The latter outdueled top notch swordsman, was praised as vastly superior by another decent one and can toy with expert weapon users. Add to that an entire bag of accolades like training deadliest men on the planet or training first fencing masters on the planet. Splinter has the showings to hold his own but that's it.

The second scenario is once again unfavorable for Splinter because he would sacrifice reach and ability to reliably block his opponent' attacks. He is skilled enough to exploit a mistake and disarm if the opportunity arises but then again he would suffer from drawbacks I mentioned above and its still hard to disarm weapon user s

Ah but there is proof Splinter can disarm Ra's actually. Splinter will recognise Ra's skills as a sword fighter and look for opportunities to disarm him of his blade. There's consistent evidence of Splinter disarming other sword fighters of their weapon. He's caught the blade of a Foot Soldier and relieved him of it, he's disarmed Alopex of her weapon, he's caught Leonardo's blade bare handed and he's broken Leo's sword as well.

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Ra's can have the accolades of being a sword master and training the first fencemen, Splinter has showings of disarming skilled fighters of their blades. The first scenario allows Splinter to accomplish this as evidenced by what Splinter did to Alopex. And now you can see the second scenario where Splinter is unarmed does not disadvantage him nearly as much as you thought. Splinter is skilled enough to catch sword blades and can break them with his feet as well. So Splinter is skilled enough to disarm Ra's armed or unarmed.