A place to share your heritage, genetic ancestry, and explore the amazing family stories people have to share!
I want them to be able to distinguish German, French, and English better. Will this ever be possible?
I feel like, the more people test, the more accurate it will be. But at least the French and German have their own category....
The current France region seems to correlate more with the Iberian Peninsula and the Mediterranean area. Which seems to be why so many Latinos get France. I want Northern France distinguished more out of this E/W/NWE category.
Yes, your right, I never really thought of it that way. It’s interesting, when I think of France I don’t think of Latin at all. If I was French that would annoy me too... and now that I think about, Germanic... encompasses quite a bit, including Denmark, Finland.....much like British Isle. Why not just put “European” Lol... same difference. It’s KIND of giving a heritage but not fully committing....
Keep in mind that there are a significant amount of Scots who fled Scotland at times to Ireland, and then often ended up in America. The Scotch-Irish as they are often termed. Many of these peoples will have both Scottish and Irish backgrounds due to the intermixing of the peoples, especially during such immigration's, not to mention the fact that the borders of Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and the UK were VERY fluid for years and years.
In other words, its very likely you have Scottish ancestry. The question is how much.
Yes I agree with you 100. I know I have Scottish Ancestry. I wish they both weren’t lumped together (Irish and Scottish) (Scottish and English) (Scottish and pretty much everything... lol) I wish there was a way to know how much Scottish... but I understand... the Celtic DNA is all so closely knit...,,
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If you had certain Scottish ancestry it would show up in the Genetic Communities.
It looks like you just have Southern Irish ancestry with a mix of England/Germanic/Benelux?
What is Benelux?
I just googled Benelux. I’ve never heard of that before! Thank you.
Fair olive skin haven’t heard that one before. I’m about as fair as it gets so I laughed.
No I get it! LOL. I am not sure how to explain it I guess. I am white, but not THAT white.... LOL. I guess I am in the middle and have been told I look like I have a little spanish in me and a little olive tone to my skin (as does my dad). I also notice however that some scandinavian people have a really beautiful almost tan tone to their skin. Some of my blond haired blued eyed nordic friends would get the most gorgeous olive brown tans in the summer vs just burning like your typical english/irish person. My skin gets more golden in the sun and I will hold a tan for about 6 to 8 months. I'll have tan lines well into winter and sometimes spring (I don't go out in the sun like I used to when I was younger so this isn't the case now). So... I would say my tone is not that of your typical SUPER fair skinned celtic person....which is what it probably should be. I also have darker hair and eyes and super curly hair, more indicative of someone of greek heritage. I was thinking I would have some Iberian in my DNA, but I don't which is interesting to me...It just makes me think about the people in the celtic lands that don't fit the sterotypical fair, red haired irish or english person. I like to think of Colin Farrell or Catherine Zeta Jones... even 23&me tells me I should have straight blond hair and freckles...which I don't.
your neolothic genes are being expressed, thats all. All europeans are basically comprised of the same people, each area having one or so of the ancient populations being more prominant than others, but most places are a high balance of western hunterer gatherers and neolithic farmers (or early european farmer). Bronze age groups (basically north eurasians) contributed the smallest amount to western europe, and the highest amounts to east and north east europe. The primary difference between north western europe and south western europe is that north western europeans carry more WHG DNA while in the south west there is more EEF dna. Just because you dont have any french, italian or iberian DNA doesnt mean you have no relation to the people in those regions. You all share the same origins, its just that after a while admixture in the region becomes slightly unique, but this is why people cant tend to guess your ethnicity or confuse it for neighboring regions.
Black irish was probably some BS term coined at people who carry phenotypes of the original irish folk due to not fitting the stereotype.
That was an extremely thorough response. Thank you! That makes a lot of sense! You sound like a geneticist 🧬. Yes, people always have been off base and always tried to guess my ancestry (I’ve even been told I look like I have some African American in me) which was why I got the DNA test (fully expecting something crazy to show up) but I was so happy to see the Irish because people were basically telling me I was lying. Now I know my family was not passing down false information, everything they told me was true. Now I have proof! Lol. The way you explained it makes a LOT of sense. I have read that “Black Irish” was a derogatory term and an ignorant way of explaining the difference in coloring, but than I’ve read that it wasn’t so derogatory... so who knows... it’s all quite fascinating to me.....
7% Norwegian DNA is the average across Scotland peaking at 30% in Orkney and Shetland (the closest islands to Norway naturally)
The average is Ireland might even be higher than 7% because of the Viking Kingdom of Dublin and Norman invasion of Ireland (Normans were Vikings going back to Rollo)
If you had Scottish DNA either its been lost/diltuted OR it shares it similarity with Irish Gael communities mentioned in your regional breakdown or it could be the Scottish is in the England category - worth noting Scotland appears in 2 categories
Ireland and Scotland - synonymous with Gael Celt
England, Wales and NW Europe - synonymous with Anglo Saxon - or an Anglo Saxon, French, Celt blend (Norman French, Brittonic, Gaul, Breton, Belgae) also includes Scotland
The reason Scotland appears in 2 categories is because the Anglo Saxons had a settlement in Scotland called Bernicia and Scotland also had Norman French and Britonnic Celts too - either that or you actually have an English ancestor - or both even is still possible
It depends where his Scottish ancestry is from in Scotland.
I wish it separated Scotland from Ireland, I know a lot of people do. It might be impossible though.... it it would be great if they got a lot more Scottish and Irish DNA and they were able to do it...
Yes that might help to narrow it down
Generally speaking Southeast and east Scotland and Borders will naturally have more Anglo Saxon DNA
Northwest islands, Argyll (west) and Northeast Islands more Norse Gael DNA
and the rest Celt (Brittonic and Gael)
Yes my 5th great grandfather was born in Argyle Scotland and I’m finding many of my maternal relatives are from Scotland, but WAY farther back. Maybe that’s where the Norwegian comes in... however none of my cousins (with the same Scottish relative) have any Norwegian. Just my mom and I. Her Norwegian is almost 20% I just assumed that and the Swedish came from my mother’s father (who is unknown). I do have English ancestry for sure. I have a few English ancestors born on the Mayflower :-)
One line of my family is from Argyle it shows as the “Central Scotland and Ulster, Ireland” region of Scotland under the Ireland and Scotland category (I also have other family lines from the same area) this region can denote both Dal Riatan ancient Celts - or Planters during the Plantation of Ulster
Argyll means the Coast of the Gaels (the name is airer Goídel in Old Irish)
Norse-Gael could be Scotland or Ireland - or it could even be Norman but usually you would see French too if its Norman although that French blend is possible also covered in the EWNWE category too so Norman Viking can’t be ruled out
Ok that’s interesting, thank you. Maybe in time, some of my Scottish will show up. The regions in Ireland are very recent (the Munster and Connact) so maybe with some more updates the Central Scotland might pop up... (hopefully)...or maybe not, maybe my tree is incorrect and that Scottish ancestor isn’t mine.... maybe it’s someone with a similar name....
Are you sure about that though? I have a chunk of Ulster Scots and got 95% Ireland and Scotland, 5% England, which suggest minimal Scots.
Obviously my Ulster Scots is from Lowland Scotland. My results contradict your suggestion of Anglo Saxon in the border regions.
Thats just me general speaking/rule of thumb
Anglo Saxon spread both in ancient times and due to modern day marriage all across Scotland - look at the Scotland part of the England, Wales and NW Europe category map for the spread they have determined at Ancestry
The bigger problem is determine whats Scottish and whats Irish in the Ireland and Scotland category - this is all dependant on data in the Ancestry database - imagine they had the full population of Ireland and Scotland in their database all our results could change
Ohh I'm also wondering if I have any Scottish...was trying to look on here to see if anyone has their Scottish being defined...My results updated over the weekend and it added that it believes my Irish is from Central Ireland...was curious to see if Scottish would show up since my ancestors who came from Ireland have the last name Algeo which according to my online research is of Scottish origins....time will tell we these updates. My original results with Ancestry back in 2017 said I had a lot of Irish/Scottish/Wales (36%) and very little Scandinavian (8%) which made no sense since my more recent ancestors (great grandparents) came over from Norway in the early 1900s and my Irish ancestors came in the mid 1800s. Then my DNA results updated back in September giving me a healthy 25% Norwegian (and 4% Swedish?) and less Irish/Scottish at 21%. I'm so excited to see each update :)
I too am excited with each update! I really hope we uncover some more info on our Scottish Ancestry. I also love how on Ancestry.com you can tie in your DNA with family trees and DNA circles. GedMatch said my deep ancestry is heavy Orkney Islands which is pretty dang cool. That would imply Scottish and Viking heritage :-) :-) :-) My last name is Scottish (AND English) so I could join a Scottish clan. Lol. Us Americans have such a love for Scotland and Ireland it’s funny because I feel like they laugh at us with our clans and our fascination with all things Celtic. They say the average British DNA is only like 30% Irish. It makes me wonder...how many Irish/Scottish Americans have the same or if not more Irish Scottish DNA than those actually living in Ireland/ Scotland/British Isles? I mean if our ancestors came to America and than kept marrying other Irish/Scottish/English immigrants...as it is there are more than double Irish Americans than there are people actually living in Ireland. I guess the Irish really got around... ha ha. But I feel that Irish Americans are completely different than the Irish in many ways, much like the Italians. I just wish the Scottish didn’t get lost on the mix.... cuz the Scottish are awesome!
If you like Norse Gael stuff this might interest you
Funny you should mention it but because of the colonies Americans could indeed be more English or Irish than the average English or Irish person thats not to say there won’t be full blooded English or Irish people in England or Ireland - certain south eastern parts of England will be very Anglo Saxon for example East Anglia or Wessex - the west coast of Ireland will be far more Gael than the North and East
English DNA is likely to be the second most prevalent DNA in America after African DNA which is probably the most prevalent
Its also interesting to think that English is essentially ancient German - so the second most prevalent DNA in America is ancient German
Its also interesting you mention Scottish can get lost in the mix - this is very possible because Irish migrations hitting the West and Anglo Saxon or English migrations on the east as well as Viking raids and Viking strongholds meant the indigenous people of Scotland the Celtic Britons Kingdom of Strathclyde and the Picts were indeed lost in the mix - and they have not yet found a Brittonic Celt or Pict genetic signature so what you find is Scotland is defined in a category with Ireland (Celt) or with England (German)
Also the ancient Celtic Britons that lived in Scotland can be conflated as Welsh because the Welsh language and historical documents are all that remain mostly - if you look at the old Welsh documents they talk about Kings and warriors that lived in what is now modern day Scotland - there are claims that St Patrick and even Merlin may have lived in a Scottish Kingdom and not Welsh or English
Oh wow! That is crazy interesting. You are wealth of knowledge with things pertaining to the Celts (and beyond :-)!
I may need to dust off my book by Bryan Sykes; Saxon’s, Vikings, and Celts. I strongly feel that a lot of my deep deep ancestry was rooted in Scotland. I have no proof. Lol. Just a feeling.
Well as you said earlier your 5th Great grandfather was born in Argyll so that something solid to go by - maybe the feeling you have is some sort of genetic memory going on - like you lost some DNA at some point !! not sure thats a proven thing but I believe strongly in genetic memory or genetic predisposition for example: Scotland had a world class shipbuilding industry at one time now consider that many Scots have Viking DNA and it all starts to make sense
Under my Ireland and Scotland category I have 2 Scottish regions fully identified and verified with family tree so they can definitely pinpoint Scottish
Here is my breakdown
Thank you for showing me that! Yes it specifically shows Scotland, unlike mine. I completely believe in DNA memory. I believe that our ancestors “call to us” as corny as that sounds. As an American, I’m very proud of my American heritage and my ancestors that fought in the revolutionary war and the ones that came here from England to start a new life... but...I also have a fascination with my deeper ancestors the celts and Vikings.. I always have. I think we all carry our ancestors with us wherever we go and our genetic codes shape us...
Ok. I keep trying to post this image (my GedMatch results) and somehow my replys are getting lost in cyberspace. I am just gong to copy and paste. I uploaded my DNA into GedMatch and this is a K16 MDLP Admixture. Can anyone interpret this for me? Hopefully this will work....
Population (source) Distance
1 Irish (Connacht) 2.6 2 English (Kent) 3 3 Scottish (Dumfries_Galloway) 3.02 4 Scottish (Highlands) 3.03 5 French (WestFrance) 3.07 6 Scottish (Grampian) 3.22 7 Shetlandic (Shetland_Islands) 3.26 8 English (Cornwall) 3.33 9 Scottish (Fife) 3.45 10 Irish (Cork_Kerry) 3.45 11 English (England) 3.56 12 Irish (Munster) 3.57 13 Irish (Ulster) 3.63 14 Irish (Leinster) 3.71 15 Scottish (Borders) 4.02 16 Dutch (Netherlands) 4.47 17 French (France) 4.93 18 Scottish (Argyll_bute) 5.01 19 German (Germany) 5.05 20 Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) 5.11
I am not great with GEDMATCH either
Maybe this guide will help
http://genealogical-musings.blogspot.com/2017/04/finally-gedmatch-admixture-guide.html?m=1
And than this is my Mixed Mode Pouplation sharing....whatever that means...I struggle with interpreting GedMatch. I need some help. LOL.
Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.7% English (Kent) + 4.3% Georgian (Tbilisi) @ 1.8 2 50.2% Scottish (Argyll_bute) + 49.8% German (Germany) @ 1.82 3 95% English (Kent) + 5% Adygei (Adygea) @ 1.88 4 95.4% English (Kent) + 4.6% Georgian (Megrelia) @ 1.89 5 95.6% English (Kent) + 4.4% Turk (Trabzon) @ 1.89 6 95% English (Kent) + 5% Balkar (Kabardino-Balkaria) @ 1.94 7 95% English (Kent) + 5% Chechen (Chechnya) @ 1.94 8 50.4% German (Germany) + 49.6% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) @ 1.98 9 95.5% English (Kent) + 4.5% Abhkasian (Abkhasia) @ 1.98 10 95.5% English (Kent) + 4.5% Georgians (Zugdidi) @ 2 11 94.9% English (Kent) + 5.1% Kumyk (Dagestan) @ 2.01 12 95.2% English (Kent) + 4.8% Abkhazian_Lykhny (Lykhny) @ 2.01 13 88% English (Kent) + 12% Bulgarian (Bulgaria) @ 2.04 14 95.6% English (Kent) + 4.4% Abkhazian (Gudauta) @ 2.04 15 86.9% English (Kent) + 13.1% Macedonian (Macedonia) @ 2.07 16 95.8% English (Kent) + 4.2% Armenian (Armenia) @ 2.07 17 95.6% English (Kent) + 4.4% Georgian (Georgia) @ 2.09 18 83.8% English (Kent) + 16.2% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.09 19 76.8% Orcadian (Orkney_Islands) + 23.2% Italian (Bergamo) @ 2.09 20 81.4% English (Kent) + 18.6% Croat (Croatia) @ 2.11
Ooooooh! Thank you:-) that looks amazing.
I was actually really quite happy with my results because I always felt very “Irish” and have always loved all things Celtic. It was nice to see I really was Irish after believing I was all these years... but than having people tell me I probably wasn’t as Irish as I thought and was probably more German or English I started to question what I was told.
I was stationed in Germany for a few years and all the Germans thought I was German and the French thought I was Danish and the Italians thought I was Northern Italian. Not many people ever said Irish, although my brother went to Ireland while deployed in the Army and everybody in his platoon said he was in the land of his “ people” cuz he looked so much like the locals in Ireland.
I’m very tall with brown eyes, auburn hair and light very fair olive skin. My Irish great grandfather looked Spanish. I’m thinking he was “black Irish”. My dad is about 80% Irish and he is tall with light/fair olive skin dark brown hair and blue green eyes indicative of the “black Irish” look... whatever the heck black Irish really means....we are all very fair... but not “pasty” more “ruddy” if that makes sense. I’ve been told olive... but it’s very light....
My question; where is Scotland in all this? I’m finding Scottish ancestors in my moms family tree. Do you think the England/Scotland/Wales could have my Scottish ancestors in there or do you think that’s mostly England? And why are the Welsh darker? More like the black Irish... maybe I have a lot more Welsh than English.... hopefully someday ancestry will break those areas down more. I’m very proud of my Irish ancestry but I feel like Scotland gets left out on these DNA websites....
Scotland has four regions on Ancestry (technically five if you include the border region between Scotland and England on the ENWE side). You didn't get any hits for those specific regions because your Scottish ancestors probably are from several hundred years ago, unlike your Irish side.
Ahhhh! Ok. Thank you. Yeah my great grandparents were both born in Ireland in the mid 1800’s. The closest Scottish relative I found was born in Scotland in 1738.... but that’s not yet confirmed with DNA as my Irish ancestors are. I’d be very curious to see a Scottish persons DNA...I might google that... lol
Just look up Ancestry DNA results on Youtube. Scottish people have already posted their videos. They're pretty much what you'd expect.
Thanks I’ll do that
The Scottish will be mixed in with the two British Isles categories, it's not all in the England category.
Ok so Scotland can be in the “Northwestern Europe.” AND the Irish Scottish (as the name implies!) Maybe?.... it’s such a broad range, that. Northwestern Europe....
I think it's because Scottish people are a mix on Celts and Germanics.
That makes sense!
I can’t wait till ancestry gets more info on the Scottish....
That’s a great source. Thank you :-) reading now...
