WI: Charles VIII Born Female? | Page 2 | alternatehistory.com

WI: Charles VIII Born Female?

The Professor

The Professor

krieger said:
But in situation of dubious paternity she ought to be confirmed an heir by her supposed father, she wasn't. Philip was Louis's legal heir.
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While there was some doubt and debate over her parentage she was recognised as his legitimate daughter. If she had been fully considered her mother's adulterous bastard Philip would not have needed to usurp her inheritance by legal means because it WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
Kellan Sullivan said:
Guys and girls, can we move PAST the debate about Salic Law here, sil vous plait?

I know I started it through my ignorance above, but I feel if the precedent is already there, then Louis XI is not lkkely to challenge it unless he wants to have France up in arms.

Most likely scenario is either a) as @isabella pointed out, that he attempts to set Charlotte aside; or b) like Karl VI/Henri de Chambord stupidly believes he will outlive his wife, so does nothing. Given that Louis is older, my belief is that a) is likelier. Unless Charlotte were to conveniently die from an illness when a doctor gives her an overdose of the wrong medicine.
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Apologies Kellan.
I agree that the former seems likely.
 

krieger

Banned
The Professor said:
While there was some doubt and debate over her parentage she was recognised as his legitimate daughter. If she had been fully considered her mother's adulterous bastard Philip would not have needed to usurp her inheritance by legal means because it WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN NECESSARY.
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He wasn't an usurper, she'd need to be APPOINTED by her father to be legitimate succesor.
 
The Professor

The Professor

krieger said:
So explain the point to me once again.
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By precedent feudal law she was heir to Navarre, Champagne, and Brie - a daughter can inherit if she has no brothers.
Philip disagreed this applied to the Kingdom of France and that's why he brought up the laws of the Salian Franks. Those laws barred women from inheritance. Those laws were not routinely used in France and were not used in Navarre.
Joan was not excluded out of bastardry. She was excluded by being a minor female with adult uncles who had power to disinherit her. And war was fought over this such that Philip had to pay off his opponents.
 

isabella

krieger said:
He wasn't an usurper, she'd need to be APPOINTED by her father to be legitimate succesor.
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She was recognized by her father as his legitimate daughter and Louis confirmed that on his deathbed... He would never appoint her as successor as he was still hoping in a son... when Louis died his second wife was still pregnant with their first child and if that child was a boy he would be the indisputable King. That more than anything else damaged Jeanne‘s chances to inherit as Clementia’s pregnancy put Philip in position for taking power. If Clementia was not pregnant at Louis‘ death is likely who Jeanne would become Queen of France. Navarre and Champagne were stealed from her without any doubt... and that in a country who often used proximity of blood over strict primogeniture for inheritances...

The Professor said:
By precedent feudal law she was heir to Navarre, Champagne, and Brie - a daughter can inherit if she has no brothers.
Philip disagreed this applied to the Kingdom of France and that's why he brought up the laws of the Salian Franks. Those laws barred women from inheritance. Those laws were not routinely used in France and were not used in Navarre.
Joan was not excluded out of bastardry. She was excluded by being a minor female with adult uncles who had power to disinherit her. And war was fought over this such that Philip had to pay off his opponents.
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I would not say who Philip simply paid off Jeanne’s biggest supporters... Saying who they stopped to champion Jeanne because Philip bribed/corrupted them is more correct... Philip married off his eldest daughter, heiress of her mother’s lands to Jeanne’s uncle and prospected to his own uncle a good chance to inherit himself the crown of France if both Philip and his younger brother Charles remained sonless...


About Charlotte I can not see the Spider King stay tied to her when he has need of an heir and has two possible matches who at least resolve some big trouble for him...
 
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isabella

Kellan Sullivan said:
Marie of Burgundy is one. Who's the other one?
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Marie d’Orleans... She is not an heiress but considering her family, her (original) engagement (to Peter of Bourbon) was a big headache for him...
If Louis can marry Marie d’Orleans himself he do not need to offer a better match (aka his daughter Anne, freed by the death of Nicholas of Anjou) to Peter for preventing their wedding
 
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isabella

Wendell said:
Nicholas of Anjou is still around at this point, right?
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He died in 1473, freeing once for all Anne from their (already broken) engagement...
If Nicholas survive is pretty likely who he will marry Marie of Burgundy, while Marie d’Orleans will become Queen of France...
 

VVD0D95

Banned
isabella said:
He died in 1473, freeing once for all Anne from their (already broken) engagement...
If Nicholas survive is pretty likely who he will marry Marie of Burgundy, while Marie d’Orleans will become Queen of France...
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Nicholas and Marie of Burgundy would be a nightmare for Louis. I'd love to see that.
 

dragonstoned

A Polish princess is definitely more likely. But can't a York princess be considered as well? Maybe Elizabeth of York, (b. 1466), as part of some Anglo-Austrian alliance against the French. Though she'd have to marry him before her father's death.
 

krieger

Banned
isabella said:
She was recognized by her father as his legitimate daughter and Louis confirmed that on his deathbed... He would never appoint her as successor as he was still hoping in a son... when Louis died his second wife was still pregnant with their first child and if that child was a boy he would be the indisputable King. That more than anything else damaged Jeanne‘s chances to inherit as Clementia’s pregnancy put Philip in position for taking power. If Clementia was not pregnant at Louis‘ death is likely who Jeanne would become Queen of France. Navarre and Champagne were stealed from her without any doubt... and that in a country who often used proximity of blood over strict primogeniture for inheritances...
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I'd still doubt Jeannes inheritance even in event of her stepmother not being pregnant, she'd still a minor and Philip would still be able to corrupt/bribe those he corrupted/bribed IOTL. Otherwise you're right.
 
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