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AirikrStrife

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In one of the dev diaries the devs talked about the possibility of splitting Pomerania a bit. Since the duchy were not united in 1444 it is a highely doable task, though due to the often fragmented nature of these internal feudal split it can create some weird borders and give rise to states with names like, Pomerania-Stettin, Pomerania-wolgast. Pomerania-Wolgast was itself divided, primarily into Pomerania-Stolp and pomerania-barth but also smaller temporal divisions did exist.,

There was also the bishopric of Cammin, which is commonly suggested. But Cammin never had imperial immediacy and remained a sub-fief of the duchy of pomerania, and I think it more agreeable to remain so.

Furthermore, several cities in pomerania were de facto independent as members of the hanseatic league (such as Stralsund and Greifswald) monasteries and nobility could also have strong control over land making the actual territorial control of the dukes often very weak and small.

Their has been a modder who has created an accurate map of the Pomeranian situation in 1444 (without doing the further splits of Pomerania-Wolgast I mention above)

X1gOH0L.jpg

map mod is done by @Ratka

This map could be copied straight of if PDX wants an exact representation of the area, note how the current duchy of pomerania has very careless borders to Brandenburg compared to this map. If PDX decides this map has too many provinces, weird province shapes, want to allow for better borders emulating some of the later border changes etc I will look at how the area can be split, Im not gonna dwelve deep into map changes, I believe there could be 1-2 more provinces in pomerania, but the most important part is to fix it's borders, which would also entail fixing the borders of Mecklenburg, Neumark and Uckermark

Something we might not also want is the naming convention of duchy-city, personally I think that would be nicely avoided and PDX done so well with Brunswick and Lüneburg already.


Using other existing names for areas in pomerania (which were also included in the full ducal title) would be a more agreeable option to using city names.

The principality of Rügen had been an independent state before being inherited by the pomeranian dukes, who bore the title until the end of the duchy then it was carried on by the swedish kings and brandenburgian margraves.

The western part of Pomerania-Wolgast were split into Pomerania-Barth (similiar in scope to historical principality of Rügen) and Pomerania-Wolgast. The duke of Pomerania-Wolgast (and there were actually two dukes sharing this title, Barnim VII and Wartislav IX, who currently is put as the duke of the entirety of pomerania). Their territory would be a strip of land including the island of usedom, with the city of Wolgast and the area around Gützkow, Their territory would be the northern part of Greifswald province with the city itself, the island of Usedom and the county of Gützkow.

When the Pomerania-Barth line went extinct in 1451 it reverted back to Pomerania-Wolgast.

While having Stralsund and Greifswald as seperate OPM's is possible, they could go together as the principality of Rügen. That would be my suggestion

While Pomerania-Wolgast did have it's griffin style own coat of arms, it would be nicer to use the historical CoA used by Rügen and carried as part of the larger CoA of pomerania
800px-Ksi%C4%99stwo_rugijskie_COA.svg.png



Besides Dukes of Stettin, Pommern and Prince of Rügen. The pomeranians dukes also styled themselves as dukes of Kashubs and Wends, a territory in general composing the eastern part of the duchy, around Kolberg and Stolp. Using either Kashubia or Wenden/Vandalia for a duchy compromising current Kolberg and Stolp province ruled by Bogislav IX is a working suggestion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogislav_IX
(Northern parts of current Stettin province, around Cammin and Stargard would be part of this duchy though)


Stettin then could remain as the duchy of Pomerania, ruled by Joakim the younger (the only of the pomeranian dukes who doesn't have his own wikipage in either english or german. Making an effort to add a second province to the duchy would be preferable (Southern half of current Greifswald province would be part of this duchy)

Bistum_Cammin_1400.PNG

Pomerania-Stettin is marked on the map, Pomerania-Wolgast would be split into an eastern Pomerania-Stolp controling all territory east of usedom, with pomerania-wolgast (and pomerania-barth) controling all territory west of said island.
 
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Would Polabia also be an acceptable alternative?

No, Polabia was not in use at this time, and polabia proper corresponds roughly to the saxe-lauenburg duchy.

It is common to misunderstand the term Polabia, as it has come to represent all lechitic slavs of eastern germany in modern writing, but originally the polabs were just one of many tribes (more commonly known as wends as used in both scandinavian, mecklenburgish and pommeranian titles)
 
If it's prefered to base Pomerania (at least in part) on it's later sweden-brandenburg division

provpomhistreg.gif

The best idea is to make a Rügen province (purple) a province corresponding to Neuvorpommern (which includes the cities of Stralsund, Greifswald and Wolgast, but not Anklam)
Stolp and Kolberg corresponds to the eastern parts (two green, Stolp and Belgard/Neustettin exclave and orange for Cammin)
The question then is of one should make stettin province based on swedish altvorpommern, with a third Stargard province for Kashubia/Vandalia/Pomerania-Stolp,
Or if it's preferable to keep Stettin more akin to the way it currently is, ignore Stolp's control over Stargard area (the westernmost green) and allow for the western part of altvorpommern to be a province (Anklam or Passerwalk) that solution would leave all three duchies with 2 provinces each
 
current image
OncEpf4.png

with livonian order (now gray)
SfaTTNN.png

grand duchy/principality of lithuania is grand because its made up from other principalities/duchies, moscow is the same with its subjects, so heres lithuanian principalities.
samogitia is a vassal / autonomous lithuanian region and the tatar states to the south are marches / hordes used by lithuania to counter enemy horde invasions.
xy7Ye8y.png

edit: heres culture map:
2qgqTCX.png

there is no prussian culture (until normal prussia forms), theres the baltic culture in german culture group (aka Deutschbalten), basically germans in baltic states. there are pomerelians, polish is split into lesser polish (malopolski), greater polish (wielkopolski) and mazovian cultures. baltic has curonian latvian lithuanian samogitian pruthenian. there are swedes in osel.
edit 2: east slavic cultures:
AGv0bCU.png


Mod
 
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@AirikrStrife Would all your Pommerania provinces be Pommeranian culture or would any of them be anything else at 1444?

I sort of stayed cautiously neutral in this debatte, I could see Kashubian culture in some provinces, but I don't consider it necessary, I feel the situation is fine as it is now.

As for Ratkus map, it's quite a lot to take in, I'm in general not in favour of oversplitting countries, unless there are good cause, as I understand GDL at this point most ruthenian land would be integrated, I suggested having a cossack march (Zaporozhia in the past) but would like to see better sources on the subject. Everyone who argued for indepdent Kiev in the start has done so based on wikipedia, and that article is just too vague to assert if Kiev was indepedent enough to varrant a vassal.

I feel the situation in eastern europe is anachronistic, especially when it comes to culture, as the old east slavic tribal division isn't relevant anymore. There is also the wird case with Mordovian culture in ryazan, swedish being majority in Wiek and Ösel. And generally too many provinces in the area.

There are some I really like though, like I think the split of Neumark works really well (I wanted to do it myself but didn't think it would work out) addition of Staraya Russa to Novgorod is also something I though about.

Pruthenian culture has been discussed in the past, including by me, the source material presented has so far been frustratingly inconclusive, there definitly were old prussians left, but it's unclear if they'd be majority in large enough area.
 
While I'm fine with splitting Pomerania, I think it's just over the edge. My thoughts:
1. I think Rügen shouldn't be a province of it's own. I'm just against 1/1/1 islands when you could basically swim there from the mainland. Neither any important historical event backs it up.
2. On the other hand the Ruppin-Prignitz split looks nice and achieveable without any problem.
3. Stargard carved out of Uckermark as an OPM (as Mecklenburgish vassal) is also fine, but I don't think Waren is necessary.
4. Neumark should stay as one. I like Airikrstrife's version of it.
5. Belgard and Kolberg, while a bit dense, looks okay for me. Not that necessary imo, but at least neither is inaccurate.
6. Forget those Prussias guys, both of them are awful.
Regarding AirikrStrife's: I would rather split Tuchel than Intersburg, as you know. Marienburg and Osterode looks weird. Ortelsburg should be more eastern than Allenstein(Ermland), not western.
Regarding ratkus': I like your Tuchel-Schwetz, looks like my version, and Osterode looks historical too. But I don't like that weird Königsberg, and those Brandenburg and Johannesburg provinces are completely unnecessary. Adding Insterburg is enough imo. Also, Tilsit was much more important than Ragnit.

7. About the Baltic region, I absolutely don't like the idea of carving out that many provinces just to represent some medieval bishoprics without any reason. This would be too much even to Voltaire's Nightmare. Except Ösel-Wiek (which should be two province rather than one btw), the Estonian part is fine, but the Latvian is just too much.
But I like your Lithuania btw. Both the country proper and it's vassal swarm. Eastern Europe needs MOOORE tags. MUCH MOOOORE.

About cultures:
-I think Prussian represents Baltic German well.
-Kashubian instead of Pomerelian all the way.
-I don't think Malo- and Wielkopolski are good idea, but Masovian could be a nice addition.
-Curonian and Pruthenian are also unnecessary. Samogitian is okay, but if you still want more cultures to this group, I would rather argue for Latgalians.
-East Slavic cultures should never include Finnic nations. Like you removed Karelians but added Mordvins (to the wrong place btw) and two other Uralic cultures to the wrong group.
-Ingermandland was Estonian/Finnic well into the 19-20th century, not slavic. Pomorye on the other could start as Novgorodian/Pomor.

Hope I could help, and you will polish your suggestions :)
 
1. I think Rügen shouldn't be a province of it's own. I'm just against 1/1/1 islands when you could basically swim there from the mainland. Neither any important historical event backs it up.
Up to 1325 Rügen was a semi-independent duchy under danish suzerainty. Following that there have been 2 wars of succession (Rügener Erbfolgekriege).
Before in 1815 it finally fell to Prussia, it changed hands repeatedly between Sweden, Brandenburg and Denmark and was a major bridge head for the Swedes during the Great Northern War.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rügen

In 1712 the Swedes tried to support the beleagered and blockaded City of Stralsund (to the south of Rügen) by trying to land a transport fleet at Rügen. This would become the "Battle of Rügen" between the danish and swedish fleets. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeschlacht_vor_Rügen_(1712)
Following their defeat, Sweden lost supremacy over the baltic sea.

This is why I think Rügen needs to be in the Game as a separate province and it needs to be connected to the mainland by a strait.
 
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Up to 1325 Rügen was a semi-independent duchy under danish suzerainty. Following that there have been 2 wars of succession (Rügener Erbfolgekriege).
Before in 1815 it finally fell to Prussia, it changed hands repeatedly between Sweden, Brandenburg and Denmark and was a major bridge head for the Swedes during the Great Northern War.
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rügen

In 1712 the Swedes tried to support the beleagered and blockaded City of Stralsund (to the south of Rügen) by trying to land a transport fleet at Rügen. This would become the "Battle of Rügen" between the danish and swedish fleets. https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seeschlacht_vor_Rügen_(1712)
Following their defeat, Sweden lost supremacy over the baltic sea.

This is why I think Rügen needs to be in the Game as a separate province and it needs to be connected to the mainland by a strait.
Even though it did change hands several times, it never did so independently of the mainland (within 1444-present day). It's not that big, not very wealthy, and would only lead to players trapping AI armies there. I don't see why it has to be a separate province.
 
Even though it did change hands several times, it never did so independently of the mainland (within 1444-present day).
Even if this was true, where's the potential for alternative history in your argument?
It's not that big, not very wealthy, and would only lead to players trapping AI armies there. I don't see why it has to be a separate province.
Trap or be trapped. But this is not an AI-improvement thread...
 
Even though it did change hands several times, it never did so independently of the mainland (within 1444-present day). It's not that big, not very wealthy. I don't see why it has to be a separate province.

This is the point. Answer this, do not just cherrypick the sidenote ;)
 
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Even if this was true, where's the potential for alternative history in your argument?
I could use the exact same argument for a request to split the Venice province or adding more provinces to the Faroe Islands. At some point you have to draw a line, and unfortunately I think Rügen is on the wrong side of that line. In my opinion, 5 or 6 provinces should be enough for Pomerania: Stralsund and Stettin west of the Oder, split at the Swedish-Brandenburger border between 1721 and 1815, and 3-4 provinces east of the Oder.

Trap or be trapped. But this is not an AI-improvement thread...
This is true, but when making these suggestions, one should keep the current game mechanics and features in mind, and the fact is that the AI can easily be exploited with provinces like these.
 
Rügen is practical because it's the easiest province to carve out, especially if We're gonna have more tags in Pomerania.

Vorpommern would be Rügen, Stralsund (borth part of Pomerania-Wolgast/Rügen) and a province made from southern Greifswald to go with Stettin. That would be the best way to accomodate both later swedish-brandenburg borders and 1444 internal divisions.

Rügen is btw a larger and more popolous island than Bornholm, which is not a great argument but still somewhat reasonable.
 
I could use the exact same argument for a request to split the Venice province or adding more provinces to the Faroe Islands.
Well, that's a bit of an exaggerated example, you have to agree. :rolleyes:
At some point you have to draw a line, and unfortunately I think Rügen is on the wrong side of that line. In my opinion, 5 or 6 provinces should be enough for Pomerania: Stralsund and Stettin west of the Oder, split at the Swedish-Brandenburger border between 1721 and 1815, and 3-4 provinces east of the Oder.
Then let's agree to disagree on that exact line... :)

Btw an island Rügen would be the ideal bridge head for AI Sweden to actually get involved in the HRE, once it has naval supremacy in the Baltic.
This is true, but when making these suggestions, one should keep the current game mechanics and features in mind, and the fact is that the AI can easily be exploited with provinces like these.
If I followed your line of argument, then we should not make any suggestions for new provinces, since players are more adapt at conquering these than AI is. :D
 
Well, that's a bit of an exaggerated example, you have to agree. :rolleyes:
Yes, it is :) I'm just saying that allowing for non-historical borders is a very open argument, with a huge amount of possible interpretations, many of which add more provinces than necessary.
Then let's agree to disagree on that exact line... :)
Yes, we can. I'd love to double that amount of provinces (so 10-12), but I'm trying to be realistic. For the next update I see 10-15 provinces added to France and Germany each and 5-10 in Italy. More than than that would be awesome, but unexpected.
Btw an island Rügen would be the ideal bridge head for AI Sweden to actually get involved in the HRE, once it has naval supremacy in the Baltic.
I actually agree with this, but then you'd have to actually give the AI an incentive to do so, and the game does not favour expansion into the HRE very much either. I would still add 5-7 other provinces to Pomerania before Rügen.
If I followed your line of argument, then we should not make any suggestions for new provinces, since players are more adapt at conquering these than AI is. :D
It's true. A human player will still be superior to the AI in games like these for a loooong time. I still think there's a level of difference between those two examples of how much it would help/harm the human/ai player. The ai exploitation wasn't really my main point though; there are already plenty of other places you can do the exact same thing.
My point is that while Rügen could work well as a province, I don't think it's necessary or important enough to add to the base game. Vorpommern isn't that large geographically. 2 or 3 provinces cover the area nicely. Rügen to me is one of those provinces you add just for adding it, without any concern for performance, like Drenthe in the Netherlands. Leave these flavour provinces to mods.
 
Even though it did change hands several times, it never did so independently of the mainland (within 1444-present day). It's not that big, not very wealthy, and would only lead to players trapping AI armies there. I don't see why it has to be a separate province.

I think you're overlooking the strategic value of the island. I think the events of the 1675-1579 Scanian War best demonstrates what a linchpin the island was to control the rest of Pommerania. The successful assault on the Swedish Fortress of Stettin by Brandenburg forces was only possible after first besieging and capturing the fortress of Rügen. Other examples are Swedes first being able to land at Rügen in 1711 in the Great Northern War before the unsuccessfully trying to relieve the siege of Straslund. In 1807 the French were unable to gain control of Rügen from the Swedish which allowed the Swedish defenders of Stralsund to maintain communication and dock gunboats from the Swedish mainland (although the French eventually did take the city).
 
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edit 2: east slavic cultures:
AGv0bCU.png
I like this bit some of the Karelian area should be east slavic Pomors too. They've been there since the 12th century.
 
The East Slavic culture group seems to be somewhat based on this map of East Slavic tribes in the 8th and 9th centuries. I feel it might be a little antiquated for the 15th century. Also the Mordvins should be in the Uralic culture group. The two other Volga Finnic cultures, Meryans and Muromians seem to have been assimilated prior to the 1444 start date by the Slavs.

483px-East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg


I do like the idea of having a separate Deutschbalten culture for the Baltic Germans, as I do think that the Baltic Germans were distinct enough from the Prussians. If there are three provinces available to be Baltic German, then I think it should be the game. They had a lot of influence in the Baltics and many would help serve the Russians after the Russian conquest of the Baltics.