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List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage

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Jan Olbracht

Philippa of Lancaster has kids with Eric of Pomerania

Philippa of Lancaster (1396-1430) m. Eric of Pomerania (1381-1459) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden

1) Margaret (1412-1478) m. Vladislaus III* (1408-1439) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

1) Vladislaus IV (1433-1488) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1439, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1436-1505)​
​
2) Casimir (1435-1438)​
​
3) Boleslaus (1436-1461)​
​
4) Hedwig (1437-1496)​
​
5) Eric VIII/IV/XIV (1438-1501) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1461, m. Elizabeth of Mecklenburg (1449-1506)​
​
6) Casimir (1439-1464)​

2) Eric (1415-1418)

3) Magnus (1417-1461) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1459, m. Elizabeth of Pomerania-Wolgast (1420-1473)

1) Eric (1444-1449)​
​
2) Magnus (1447-1460)​

4) Eric (1420-1440)

* Son of Vladislaus II Jogaila and Anna of Cili

How do you think would existence of legitimate descendants of Henry IV affect situation in England (assuming strong butterfly net there)?
 
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HortenseMancini

HortenseMancini

Jan Olbracht said:
Philippa of Lancaster has kids with Eric of Pomerania

Philippa of Lancaster (1396-1430) m. Eric of Pomerania (1381-1459) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden

1) Margaret (1412-1478) m. Vladislaus III* (1408-1439) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

1) Vladislaus IV (1433-1488) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1439, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1436-1505)​
​
2) Casimir (1435-1438)​
​
3) Boleslaus (1436-1461)​
​
4) Hedwig (1437-1496)​
​
5) Eric VIII/IV/XIV (1438-1501) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1461, m. Elizabeth of Mecklenburg (1449-1506)​
​
6) Casimir (1439-1464)​

2) Eric (1415-1418)

3) Magnus (1417-1461) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1459, m. Elizabeth of Pomerania-Wolgast (1420-1473)

1) Eric (1444-1449)​
​
2) Magnus (1447-1460)​

4) Eric (1420-1440)

* Son of Vladislaus II Jogaila and Anna of Cili

How do you think would existence of legitimate descendants of Henry IV affect situation in England (assuming strong butterfly net there)?
Click to expand...
They'd have to be pretty balls-y to claim the English throne but it definitely wouldn't be without precedent for a man to claim it through female descent.
 

WillVictoria

The Danish branch of my EddyxHelene family tree (with some edits to years of death)

Frederick IX of Denmark (b.1899 r.1947 d.1972) m. a) Alexandra of the United Kingdom, b) Ingrid of Sweden
  1. a) Alexandra Helena Frederica Thorhildur (1924 - 1993) m. Philip of Greece*
    1. Alexandra (1948 -)
    2. Aspasia (1950 -)
  2. a) Louise Alexandrine Victoria Marie (1928 - 1969)
  3. a) Anne Alexandra Edwina Maud (1930 -1997) m. Albert, Duke of York**
    1. Alexandra Elizabeth Anne (1953 -)
    2. Charles Frederick Albert (1955 -)
    3. Arthur Christian Edward (1957 -)
    4. Edward Alexander George (1961 -)
    5. George Richard David (1964 -)
  4. a) Christian Edward Frederick Philip (1932 - 2003) m. Astrid of Norway
  5. b) Margarethe Astrid Ingeborg Ingrid (1940 -) m. Henri, Count de Montpezat
    1. Anastasia Renee Ingrid Margarethe (1969-)
    2. Joachim Frederik Andre Henri (1971 -)
  6. b) Benedikte Marie Dagmar Ingrid (1944 -) m. Richard, Duke of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
    1. Gustav Frederik Philip Richard (1969 -)
    2. Nathalie Rosemarie Ingrid Benedikte (1971 -)
    3. Madeleine Xenia Margarethe Benedikte (1974 -)

Christian XI (b.1932 r.1972 d.2003) m. Astrid of Norway
  1. Frederik Alexander Olaf Christian (1962 -) m. Sabina Kellogg
  2. Alexander Albert Edward Harald (1966 -) m. Barbara Dvorak
    1. Nikolai Christian Olav Michael (1995 -)
  3. Martha Alexandra Ingeborg Maud (1966 -) m. Jakob Ware
    1. Christoph Alexander Georg (1992 -)
    2. Wilhelm Christian Johan (1995 -)
    3. Sophia Ingrid Louise (1999 -)
    4. Thyra Ingeborg Josephine (2000 -)
  4. Carl Christian Waldemar Haakon (1969 -) m. Maarit Koenigsmann
    1. Axel Waldemar Christian Frederik (2004 -)
    2. Dagmar Margarethe Isabella Maud (2004 -)
  5. Catherine Benedikte Elisabeth Victoria (1972 -) m. Viktor Mihaylov
    1. Maria (2000 -)
    2. Mikhail (2003 -)
    3. Felix (2007 -)
    4. Olga (2011 -)
Frederik X (b.1962 r.2003) m. Sabina Kellogg
  1. Charlotte Astrid Hedwig Sabina (1997 -)***

*Alexander I of Greece survives his close encounter with a primate and manages to secure dynastic rights for his children by Aspasia Manos. Here Philip is born in 1923 and eventually becomes King of Greece.
** Here an ATL Elizabeth II who is a) born as a boy, b) becomes Duke of York after inheriting from his childless uncle Edward who inherited from his father George, Duke of York (OTL's George V) because here OTL's George V is just Duke of York with his brother being King.
***Due to constitutional referendums in 1967 (which granted women a place in the line of succession) and 2005 (which introduced absolute primogeniture) Charlotte currently holds the title of Crown Princess of Denmark
 
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Jan Olbracht

curlyhairedhippie said:
They'd have to be pretty balls-y to claim the English throne but it definitely wouldn't be without precedent for a man to claim it through female descent.
Click to expand...
From geographicall POV Scandinavian line would be in better position to push their claim due to Anglo-Scandinavian ties, while at the same time Polish line (which has zero interest in British Isles) has better genealogical claim.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
Not sure how plausible this is, but it's something I've found intriguing:

POD: In the late 1540s, Elizabeth I is married to James Hamilton son of the Earl of Arran, as part of Henry VIII's plans to get the Scots to accept the English marriage of Mary Queen of Scots:

James Hamilton later 3rd Earl of Arran (b.1537: d.1562) m Elizabeth I of England (b.1532: d.1603)

Issue:

Henry IX and I of England and Scotland (b.1553)

James Hamilton, Duke of Hamilton (b.1556)

Anne Hamilton (b.1557)
 

Kellan Sullivan

Jan Olbracht said:
Philippa of Lancaster has kids with Eric of Pomerania

Philippa of Lancaster (1396-1430) m. Eric of Pomerania (1381-1459) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden

1) Margaret (1412-1478) m. Vladislaus III* (1408-1439) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

1) Vladislaus IV (1433-1488) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1439, m. Elizabeth of Austria (1436-1505)​
​
2) Casimir (1435-1438)​
​
3) Boleslaus (1436-1461)​
​
4) Hedwig (1437-1496)​
​
5) Eric VIII/IV/XIV (1438-1501) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1461, m. Elizabeth of Mecklenburg (1449-1506)​
​
6) Casimir (1439-1464)​

2) Eric (1415-1418)

3) Magnus (1417-1461) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1459, m. Elizabeth of Pomerania-Wolgast (1420-1473)

1) Eric (1444-1449)​
​
2) Magnus (1447-1460)​

4) Eric (1420-1440)

* Son of Vladislaus II Jogaila and Anna of Cili

How do you think would existence of legitimate descendants of Henry IV affect situation in England (assuming strong butterfly net there)?
Click to expand...

This would be AS cool to see as a tree where Philippa's older sister, Blanche's son, Rupprecht survives and has kids, gets elected emperor when Albrecht of Habsburg dies instead of Friedrich III (i.e. Rupprecht is as ballsy as his grandpas).

Wonder if there was something wrong with Henry IV's genes à la Neapolitan Anjous or Luxemburgs that led to him having only TWO surviving legitimate grandkids (Henry VI and Rupprecht)
 

Jan Olbracht

Kellan Sullivan said:
This would be AS cool to see as a tree where Philippa's older sister, Blanche's son, Rupprecht survives and has kids, gets elected emperor when Albrecht of Habsburg dies instead of Friedrich III (i.e. Rupprecht is as ballsy as his grandpas).

Wonder if there was something wrong with Henry IV's genes à la Neapolitan Anjous or Luxemburgs that led to him having only TWO surviving legitimate grandkids (Henry VI and Rupprecht)
Click to expand...
OTOH with illegitimate kids he was not that unlucky, so it may be just bad luck.
 

VVD0D95

Banned
In which James IV of Scotland dies in 1492, leading to his brother James, Duke of Ross becoming King.

James V of Scotland (b.1476) m Margaret Tudor (b.1489) in 1502.

Issue:

James, Duke of Rothesay (b.1505: d.1507)

Arthur, Duke of Ross (b.1506: d.1507)

James VI of Scotland (b.1508)

Alexander, Duke of Ross (b.1510)

Margaret of Scotland (b.1513)

Robert, Duke of Kinntyre (b.1516)

Anne of Scotland (b.1520)

Catherine of Scotland (b.1525)

This is one which has stuck in my head for a long time, so I may explore it in the future.
 
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kaiidth

kaiidth

Henry VIII Tudor (28 June 1491 – 28 January 1547)
Reign22 April 1509 – 28 January 1547

PredecessorHenry VII
SuccessorMary I

Spouse
  • (1) Catherine of Aragorn
    (m. 1509; annulled January1533, she died October 1533 )
  • (2) Anne Boleyn
    (m. 1533; dies in Childbed 1536)
  • (3) Jane Seymour
    (m. 1536; died 1537)
  • (4) Amalia of Cleves
    (m. 1539; dies in Childbirth 1541)
  • (5) Catherine Howard
    (m. 1542; executed 1543 because of adultery)
  • (6) Catherine Parr
    (m. 1543 till his death)


By (1)Catherine of Aragorn, Unnamed daughter31 January 1510stillborn
By(1),
Henry, Duke of Cornwall		1 January 151122 February 1511died aged almost two months
By(1),
Unnamed daughter		17 September 1513died shortly after birth
By(1),
Unnamed daughter		November, 1514died shortly after birth
By(1),
Queen Mary I		18 February 151617 November 1558married Phillip II of Spain in 1548; 4 stillbirths or miscarriages, no living issue
By(1),
Margaret		10 November 1518died 1553 after birthing Twin daughtersmarried Luis of Beja in 1548

son Joao born 1549, son Fernando born 1551,
Twin daughters Catherina and Beatrice born 1553
By his Mistress Bess Blount,
Henry FitzRoy, 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset		15 June 151923 July 1536illegitimate; acknowledged by Henry VIII in 1525; no issue
By(2) Anne Boleyn, Elizabeth7 September 153324 March 1603married against her will to Archduke Ferdinand of Austria in 1550

son Ferdinand born 1552, daughter Anna born 1554, miscarriage 1555, daughter Eleonore born 1557, son Charles born 1560, son Phillip born 1562, stillborn son 1562, stillborn daughter 1563, daughter Elizabeth born 1565, daughter Maria Agnes born 1567, daughter Cecilia born 1569, stillborn twin sons 1570
By(2),
Cecily		Christmas, 1534died 1590married in 1552 to Sigismund II Augustus, King of Poland

Daughter Anna born 1554, daughter Bona born 1556, daughter Jadwiga born 1558, stillborn son 1560, stillborn son 1562, miscarriage 1563, daughter Barbara born 1565, stillborn son 1567, daughter Zofia born 1570
By(2),
Unnamed daughter		1535miscarriage
By(2),
Agnes		29 January 1536died 1560
after giving birth to her fourth child		married in 1553 to Alfonso II d'Este, Duke of Ferrara

daughter Renata born 1555, son Ercole born 1556 and died same year, daughter Anna born 1558, son Enrico born 1560 but dies 1565 because of a fever
By (3) Jane Seymour,
Son Edward		12 October 153711 November 1537died barely a month old
By (4) Amalia of Cleve,
Twin daughters
Sybilla and
Marianne		2 March
1541		Sybilla drowns 1550, Marianne dies at age twelve of a fever
By (5) Catherine Howard,no issue
By (6) Catherine Parr, no issue
 
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Jan Olbracht

Griffite wank:

Wartislaw VII (d. 1394/5) Duke of Pomerania, m. Maria of Mecklenburg-Schwerin (d. 1402)

1) Eric VII/III/XIII (1381-1459) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden, m. Philippa of England (1396-1430)

1) Eric VIII/IV/XIV (1421-1478) King of Denmark, Norway and Sweden 1459​

2) Barnim (1390-1432) Duke of Pomerania, m. Elizabeth Bonifacia of Poland* (1399-1429)

1) Vladislaus III (1418-1447) Duke of Pomerania-Słupsk, Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1434, King of Hungary and Bohemia 1439, m. Dorothea of Brandenburg (1420-1491)​
​
1) Vladislaus IV (1436-1487) Duke of Słupsk, Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland 1447​
​
2) Casimir I (1437-1480) King of Hungary 1447​
​
3) Frederick I (1439-1500) King of Bohemia 1447​
​
* Daughter of Vladislaus Jogaila and Hedwig d'Anjou

Eric of Pomerania has a son with Philippa, and younger brother instead of sister, who marries heiress of Poland. After few generations Griffites rule in Kalmar Union, Poland, Lithuania, Bohemia and Hungary, with possible claims to Naples and England.

@krieger
​
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
Eric of Pomerania has a son with Philippa, and younger brother instead of sister, who marries heiress of Poland. After few generations Griffites rule in Kalmar Union, Poland, Lithuania, Bohemia and Hungary, with possible claims to Naples and England
Click to expand...

In your scenario Lithuania would be incorporated to Poland, and it's unlikely that the youngest son would be named Frederick. IMHO, he would be named Louis or Charles or even Stephen more likely, or Eric or Bogusław after Griffites. Also I think that in this scenario, ruling king of Poland would bear the title of "Supreme Duke of Lithuania" and title of Grand Duke would go to his heir - Vladislaus Griffite is 12 yo at the time of Vytautas death, old enough to be sent by his grandfather to Vilnius and making title of Grand Duke belong to heir to the Polish royal title would make the biggest weakness of "Vytautas system" obsolete - Grand Duke wouldn't try to make himself independent if the both him and king have heirs of his own, because he is the heir of the king. And do you think Vladislaus would succeed above his mother (precedents of Louis d'Anjou and Casimir of Słupsk are speaking in favor of this option)?
 
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Jan Olbracht

krieger said:
In your scenario Lithuania would be incorporated to Poland, and it's unlikely that the youngest son would be named Frederick. IMHO, he would be named Louis or Charles or even Stephen more likely, or Eric or Bogusław after Griffites. Also I think that in this scenario, ruling king of Poland would bear the title of "Supreme Duke of Lithuania" and title of Grand Duke would go to his heir - Vladislaus Griffite is 12 yo at the time of Vytautas death, old enough to be sent by his grandfather to Vilnius and making title of Grand Duke belong to heir to the Polish royal title would make the biggest weakness of "Vytautas system" obsolete - Grand Duke wouldn't try to make himself independent if the both him and king have heirs of his own, because he is the heir of the king. And do you think Vladislaus would succeed above his mother (precedents of Louis d'Anjou and Casimir of Słupsk are speaking in favor of this option)?
Click to expand...
What is unlikely abouth third son being named after maternal grandfather?
 

krieger

Banned
Jan Olbracht said:
What is unlikely abouth third son being named after maternal grandfather?
Click to expand...

It was not a name held by the kings in both Hungary and Poland, so I think Barnim would use something more prestigious. Maybe Frederick would appear as a second name, as Albert was John Albert's second one.

Jan Olbracht said:
In my scenario Elżbieta Bonifacja and her husband both die before Jogaila.
Click to expand...

Ok, so that removes this question for this generation.
 

Jan Olbracht

Descendants of HRE Maximilian I. That is proto-tree, would be updated to final version soon, suggestions welcomed.

Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1510)

1a) Philip (1478-1506) m. Joanna of Castile (1479-1555)

1) Eleanor (1498- ) m. Michael I (1498-1541) King of Spain*​
​
2) Charles (1500-1509)​
​
3) Isabella (1501-) m. Christian II King of Denmark​
​
4) Maximilian (1503)​
​
5) Maria (1505-), m. Louis II (1506-1526) King of Bohemia and Hungary​
​
1) Louis III (1525-) King of Bohemia and Hungary​
​
6) Philip (1507-) Duke of Burgundy, King of England iure uxoris, m. Mary of England** (1508- )​

2a) Margaret (1480-1530)

3c) Ernest I (1496-1526) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-)

4c) Rudolf II (1498-1554) Holy Roman Emperor 1526, m. ?

5c) Eleanor (1500-1557) m. Sigismund the Old (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

* Surviving Miguel da Paz

** Daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. As Miguel da Paz lives and Philip Habsburg is not going to take Castilian throne ITTL Henry VII is not trying to stop marriage of Catherine of Aragon with future Henry VIII, so they marry much earlier and CoA suffers less stress and has more surviving kids, including surviving son, although that son dies childless. Thus ATL Mary Tudor and her Habsburg husband eventually take the throne.


Plausible? Who'd you suggest for ATL Emperor Rudolf II?
 
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isabella

Jan Olbracht said:
Descendants of HRE Maximilian I. That is proto-tree, would be updated to final version soon, suggestions welcomed.

Maximilian I (1459-1519) Holy Roman Emperor, m. a) Mary of Burgundy (1457-1482) b) Anne of Brittany (annuled) c) Bianca Maria Sforza (1472-1510)

1a) Philip (1478-1506) m. Joanna of Castile (1479-1555)

1) Eleanor (1498- ) m. Michael I (1498-1541) King of Spain*​
​
2) Charles (1500-1509)​
​
3) Isabella (1501-) m. Christian II King of Denmark​
​
4) Maximilian (1503)​
​
5) Maria (1505-), m. Louis II (1506-1526) King of Bohemia and Hungary​
​
1) Louis III (1525-) King of Bohemia and Hungary​
​
6) Philip (1507-) Duke of Burgundy, King of England iure uxoris, m. Mary of England** (1508- )​

2a) Margaret (1480-1530)

3b) Ernest I (1496-1526) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-)

4b) Rudolf II (1498-1554) Holy Roman Emperor 1526, m. ?

5b) Eleanor (1500-1557) m. Sigismund the Old (1467-1548) Grand Duke of Lithuania, King of Poland

* Surviving Miguel da Paz

** Daughter of Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon. As Miguel da Paz lives and Philip Habsburg is not going to take Castilian throne ITTL Henry VII is not trying to stop marriage of Catherine of Aragon with future Henry VIII, so they marry much earlier and CoA suffers less stress and has more surviving kids, including surviving son, although that son dies childless. Thus ATL Mary Tudor and her Habsburg husband eventually take the throne.


Plausible? Who'd you suggest for ATL Emperor Rudolf II?
Click to expand...
Some ATL Spanish princess? In alternative English, French or Scottish matches can be taken in consideration... Or maybe Bona Sforza with the idea of give them Milan if Maximilian and Francis died early without heirs*
You have the wrong letter for Ernest, Rudolf and Eleanor...

In alternative marry Bona to Maximilian pretty early and give them only a surviving daughter born around 1510 (before killing him off)... she would be a little young but heiress of a strategical place like a Milan so perfect for Maximilian’s youngest son
 

Jan Olbracht

isabella said:
Some ATL Spanish princess? In alternative English, French or Scottish matches can be taken in consideration... Or maybe Bona Sforza with the idea of give them Milan if Maximilian and Francis died early without heirs*
You have the wrong letter for Ernest, Rudolf and Eleanor...

In alternative marry Bona to Maximilian pretty early and give them only a surviving daughter born around 1510 (before killing him off)... she would be a little young but heiress of a strategical place like a Milan so perfect for Maximilian’s youngest son
Click to expand...

Bona for Rudolf seems interesting. I think I would let Ernst to live longer, so Rudolf would not be HRE, but he'd be founder of Milanese Habsburg line.
 

isabella

Jan Olbracht said:
Bona for Rudolf seems interesting. I think I would let Ernst to live longer, so Rudolf would not be HRE, but he'd be founder of Milanese Habsburg line.
Click to expand...
Bona is four years older than him and you will need to take care of Maximilian and Francis II Sforza early for that match The game work better with a daughter of MaximilIan and Bona (called either Isabella or Beatrice, less likely Eleonora, Bianca or Bianca Maria) as the girl would be the (almost) indisputable heiress of the claim on Milan of both branches of the Sforza. She would be a little young but I do not think that would be a problem for Rudolf....
 

Jan Olbracht

isabella said:
Bona is four years older than him and you will need to take care of Maximilian and Francis II Sforza early for that match The game work better with a daughter of MaximilIan and Bona (called either Isabella or Beatrice, less likely Eleonora, Bianca or Bianca Maria) as the girl would be the (almost) indisputable heiress of the claim on Milan of both branches of the Sforza. She would be a little young but I do not think that would be a problem for Rudolf....
Click to expand...

Now I've imagined something like this for kids of Bianca Maria

1) Ernest (1496-1551) Holy Roman Emperor 1519, m. a) Anna of Bohemia and Hungary (1503-1526) b) Isabella Sforza (daughter of Bona and Massimo) (1516-1568)

1a) Maximilian II (1524-) Holy Roman Emperor​
​
2a) Anna (1526-)​
​
3b) Francis (1533-) Duke of Milan​
​
2) Rudolf (1498- ) Archduke of Tirol? m. Christine of Saxony (1505-) daughter of George the Bearded

3) Eleanor (1500-) m. Sigismund the Old
​
​
 
kasumigenx

kasumigenx

Mary of Burgundy b. 1457 d. 1497 m. Charles, Duke of Guyenne d. 1474(a) Maximilian, Holy Roman Emperor(b)

1a. Charlotte of Guyenne b. 1474 m. Edward V of England

With issue

2b.Philip, Count of Charolais b. 1478 d. 1484

3b. Margaret of Austria b. 1480 m. Juan, Prince of Asturias

With issue

4b. Francis I, Holy Roman Emperor b. 1481 m. Maria of Aragon

With issue

5b. Philip b. 1483 d. 1497

6b. Maria of Austria b. 1484 d.1206 m. Vladislaus II of Hungary

With issue

7b. Maximilian b. 1486 d. 1516 ?

8b. Charles b. d. 1488

9b. Rudolf b. d. 1490

10b. Albert b. 1491 d. 1522 ?

11b. Eleanor b. 1494 d. 1499


Could anyone guess the fate of Max and Albert?
 
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