Talk:William Marshal, 1st Earl of Pembroke/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Chronica Major
The likes of Christopher Gravett (Knight: Noble Warrior of England 1200-1600), Suzanne Lewis (The Art of Matthew Paris in the Chronica Majora) and Matthew Strickland (War and Chivalry: The Conduct and Perception of War in England and Normandy) are all united in stating that the image of Marshal unhorsing Baldwin de Guisnes from the Chronica Majora relates to his son Richard Marshal at the Battle of Monmouth 1233, and not William Marshal. nick_hartl@hotmail.com
I have read that the threat was for William Marshal to be cast at the walls from a catapult. Do we have a citation that it was, in fact, hanging to be used to kill young William? (At the beginning, before his fathers "Hammer and Anvil Quote) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.74.192.233 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 16 March 2007 (UCT) (UTC)
Changes
Just wanted to say what I did. Based on what I've read, and without having sources at hand, I cleaned up the biography in terms of wording, making it more consistent in style and (I hope) easier to read. I put in the headings as well. I did change the description of the tournaments, much as Jane says below (I did it before I read Jane's bit, lol), but that's the only substantive change, I think. Don't know about the Third vs. First Earl of Pembroke bit. They restarted these things all the time, of course. Hope everything is all right. Lordjim13 14:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Now I've incorporated the biographical information from the Earl of Pembroke page, which was originally Encyclopedia Britannica 1911. Adds some good stuff. Lordjim13 01:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Flower of Chivalry
Removed the "flower of knighthood" bit. It ain't history, ain't really very informative, and it sounds very much like one of them icky 19th century romantic quotes. Sorry, but let's not confuse literature (including plays and film) with history. If this needs to be a stub, let it be an informative one. JHK
- William Marshall: The Flower of Chivalry, by Georges Duby. I remember reading it in college history class. Rmhermen 09:37 Aug 12, 2002 (PDT)
- I read it too: good book. Lordjim13 14:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- One of my favorite books too, but the original title in French is totally different Guillaume le Maréchal ou Le meilleur chevalier du monde "the best knight in the world" Nortmannus (talk) 05:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- I read it too: good book. Lordjim13 14:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
From Jane: marytrary@hotmail.com:
I have made a few edits. Ist: amended William's title, and those of his sons. He was third Earl of Pembroke (not 1st or 4th) The title had been created for Strongbow's father and held by Strongbow. William Marshall was 3rd.
2nd: John Marshall changed sides only once, and this was not the reason that he had to give a hostage.
3rd: it is misleading to say that the Empress had asked John to hold Newbury for her. Newbury was probably in fact Hamstead Marshall, on John's estate a few miles from Newbury, but might have been a temporary fortification at Newbury (see David Crouch). Either way it was not one of the two castles, Marlborough and Ludgershall held for the Empress.
4th: it is also misleading to say that Isabel de Clare brought the title of Earl of Pembroke with her. Although Strongbow and his father had held the title, it was not automatic that William would get the title or all of Isabel's lands, which were in the grant of the king. In fact it was some years before the title was confirmed, and he never did get all of the de Clare inheritance.
5th: I have altered William's job description, when in the Young King's mesnie to tutor in chivalry (see Painter)
6th: I have deleted the reference to Eleanor being placed in William's custody by Henry. I am not aware of any source for this, and since William had been sponsored by Eleanor and had supported the Young King's rebellion, it is unlikely. If true, I think William's biographer's would have mentioned it.
I have left, but am not happy with, the description of the twelfth century tournament as 'bloody hand-to-hand combat'. This is not a good description of a melée. A melée was a mock battle. The main aim was to capture members of the other side (particularly the wealthy ones) so that you could take their armour and horse and ransom your captives. It was not in the knight's interests to injure his opponent, so although injuries and deaths did occur, 'bloody' is misleading.
Sources:
William Marshal, Knight-errant, Baron and Regent of England by Sidney Painter, John Hopkins Press 1933 (available as reprint from University of Toronto Press)
William Marshal, Court, Career and Chivalry in the Angevin Empire 1147-1219, by David Crouch, Longman 1990.
Henry II by W.L.Warren, Eyre Methuen 1973.
For a more sceptical view of William's career, see - William Marshal, King Henry II and the Honour of Chateauroux, by Nicholas Vincent,in The Journal of the British Record Association v.25 n.102 (2000) (this is available on the net - if you do a search - I've lost the url) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.64.167.121 (talk • contribs) 15:11, 11 January 2005 (UTC)
King Stephen
I read the accurate account of John Marshal's words regarding the capture of his son. I would like to propose that John Marshal knew that Stephen would not kill a child. An analysis of his reign shows him to be a gallant fighter, and a good military tactian, but alas, lacked the homicidal tendancies of his brethen Kings, although his son Eustace surely did not. Just my opinion. Mugginsx (talk) 11:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Missing Decades
Anyone know what William was up to from 1168-1185? As it stands, the article has him being captured by Guy de Lusignan and ransomed by Eleanor of Aquitane in 1168. We are then given an account of his entry to the world of tournaments. The next section then begins: "Upon his return in 1185, he rejoined the court of Henry II". The "Death" section also mentions his being initiated into the Order of the Knights Templar, "fulfilling a promise he made on Crusade". The article makes no mention of his ever going on Crusade, since he surely remained in England while Richard was away.207.6.223.31 (talk) 17:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I just checked Wikisource, and there is information in Kingsford that is missing from the article. First, it mentions that Marshal went to the Holy Land after the death of Henry I. I'm not sure what protocol is in a situation like this: is it correct to describe him as being "on Crusade" when his trip took place outside of any of the numbered Crusades? At any rate,the "Royal Favour" section begins with him returning to the court in 1185. Henry I, whose death precipitated Marshal's voyage, died in 1185. Kingsford has Marshal leaving in 1185 and remaining in the Levant for two years. I am not by any stretch an experienced editor, but I would appreciate it if somebody who is would attend to these errors in continuity. Thank you.207.6.223.31 (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
- Pardon? Which Henry I? Not of England, or France, or Germany, because none of those died in 1185. Henry I of England died in 1135, and Henry II in 1189. Zoetropo (talk) 00:29, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
Coat of arms...
I've two concerns here.
Firstly, the cited quote doesn't talk about this William Marshal having a shield of this description; it only notes that "Le Conte de PENNBROK, Party d'or e de vert, a un lion rampant, party de or e de goules en lung--Another roll, temp. HEN. III." Henry III ruled from 1216-1272, and there is no particular reason to suppose that this roll - or the reference to the Count of Pembroke - is about this William Marshal (d.1219), as opposed to one of his sons. The historian David Crouch notes that this William Marshal had a banner with red lion on a green and yellow background, but makes no reference to this appearing on any shields. Adrian Ailes, in Medieval Knighthood IV: Papers from the Fifth Strawberry Hill Conference 1990, notes that this William Marshal used other devices, such as the Tancarville arms, on his shield in battle, at least earlier in his career, but makes no references to later shield designs.
Secondly, I'm not at all sure about the appearance of the lion on the image added into the article. We have a rare, contemporary image of how the shield of William's son - another William Marshal - appeared, drawn by Matthew Paris at the time in the 13th century. This contemporary depiction is far less elaborate than ours, with a very different tail, differently placed feet, no tongue and with no frilly fur. To be honest, the one on the right looks like a very modern interpretation of a medeival coat of arms. Now, I wouldn't argue that you could guarantee that Paris' drawing was 100% accurate either, but I'd really like to see a reliable reference that William Marshal's shield looked more like the one on the right rather than the one on the left if we're going to use it in the article. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:56, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- Heraldry is not standardised. As long as it follows the blazon it is still the same arms, regardless of the art style. If you really wanted I could change the lion to look more mediæval, but as it is, this version is still undeniably correct. Zacwill16 (talk) 18:11, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- I'm not at all convinced that the new version is correct - or at least that it accurately looks like whatever went on the shield of William Marshal in the 12th/13th century. As a compromise, would you be up for us replacing the modern version with the contemporary version? Hchc2009 (talk) 18:23, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
- As far as heraldry is concerned, it is correct: it still follows the blazon party per per pale Or and vert, a lion rampant gules, i.e. a red lion rampant on a field split in half vertically gold and green. I guess using the contemporary version is a fair compromise though. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:02, 20 January 2015 (UTC)
Consanguinity between William Marshal and William II de Tancarville?
Does anyone know the exact blood relationship between William Marshal and the man who trained and knighted him, William II de Tancarville? (In my investigations so far, I haven't found any common ancestors.) Zoetropo (talk) 00:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
The relationship is detailed in Crouch, William Marshal, 22 and n, and derived from William's mother, Sybil of Salisbury, whose grandfather, Edward of Salisbury married into the Tancarville family.
Potential Conflict
This article seems to be in conflict with the Wikipedia article on Richard FitzGilbert de Clare, 2nd Earl of Pembroke and the Wikipedia article Gilbert Fitzgilbert de Clare, 1st Earl of Pembroke who were both known by the nick-name of "Strongbow". Isabel de Clare was a daughter of Richard, and by this lineage William Marshall is the 4th Earl of Pembroke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.25.210 (talk) 13:19, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
- They were both first earl - William Marshall by the second creation. See Earl of Pembroke. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:53, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
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Return from where?
There seems to be a big gap in the article from 1168 to 1185. Apparently he fell out of royal favour during that time? And now he was returning? CrinklyCrunk (talk) 19:33, 21 February 2017 (UTC)
- During most of that time he served Henry "The Young King", losing favor with Henry II when Henry the Young attempted a coup during which he (the Young) died in 1183. As a way to both buy time and as a genuine religious concern, from 1183-1185 he traveled to Jerusalem on crusade. I'm at a public terminal now but I have sources at home to fill all this in with and will do so when I get back. (Vyselink, unlogged in) 82.203.24.1 (talk) 14:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)